Woody Johnson "happy" with the "direction" of the team

[Sperm Edwards]

OK, I agree with that (maybe) but the stat you provided was for coaches with 50 or more starts, and this stat you provided put him almost exactly in the middle at 80th out of 161 coaches, pretty much the exact meaning of mediocre (I Think).

 

If your intention was to prove that he is above average, then please provide the data, of ALL coaches, so we can make that decision on our own, because some of us feel that their may be many coaches out their, that were INTERIM, stayed 1 year and left for college, etc that actually had better records than REX. ONE that comes to mind off hand I believe is AL GROH, who I believe may have been 9-7 his one year with the Jets which I believe is better than a .519 win percentage.

 

Sorry, and please dont take this to mean I am taking a "shot" at you but many REX supporters seem to throw out statements, that they believe to be fact but without the data to back it up, their is no way we can interpret it one way or the other. The DATA you provided however categorically rates Rex as mediocre.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

 

No stroke of genius on my part.  Just looked up a chart.  Sort away.  

 

 

 

The point is he is better than average by this measurement.  You don't have to agree, but the record is the record.  Take Matt Schaub.  Not a great QB, though he's clearly had some success.  Where is he in historical ranking (statistically, anyway)? Middle of the pack? I would say he's had an above average career statistically.  But you have to compare him to everyone who's been given a chance.  You can't remove the Kellen Clemens and Tim Tebow types from the comparison simply because they were SO much worse than Schaub that they weren't given as many years to QB their respective teams.  Even that stiff Sanchez is better than lots of other QBs.  When he's the worst ever, as people claim, they're only comparing him to those good enough to earn starting jobs in the first place (for multiple seasons).  I think he sucks and sucked.  But I'll take him any day over Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf or probably a hundred others who don't have the 50 starts to even compare to him statistically.

 

 

To not count those who were SO much worse than Rex that they were fired in only a season or two (or less) holds about as much water as eliminating those who coached for more than 7 years.  You can't cut off one half of the bell curve but not the other and claim any type of statistical proof.  I mean, you CAN, but no one's going to pay attention.

[joewillie78]

In fact, I still believe that JIMMY JOHNSON could still return to coaching.

[JiFtheOracle]

There's a thread about Gary Kubiak getting fired. He lost 11 straight before that happened. Herm and Mangini also had late season collapses. If Rex finishes 6-10 I agree maybe it's time to go. But if he wins 2 out of 3, this year 8-8 he will be mediocre by most standards but it's actually a really good job with this roster. Consider the fact that almost 25 mil of the salary cap is being used on Sanchez and Revis (trade). 

 

If this team finishes 8-8, its second best coaching job this fan base has ever seen (or at least in my life time).

[JiFtheOracle]

In fact, I still believe that JIMMY JOHNSON could still return to coaching.

 

Lmfao - he hasnt coached since 1993.  Pretty sure he's done dude.

[joewillie78]

If this team finishes 8-8, its second best coaching job this fan base has ever seen (or at least in my life time).

Sadly, this is a very true statement.

[joewillie78]

Lmfao - he hasnt coached since 1993.  Pretty sure he's done dude.

I can always dream, cant I?

[MexiRoll6]

I have heard so many coaches say: I am never leaving this job, or I love this job so much, I'm staying. Even the coach I worship BILL PARCELLS "lied" saying things like this is his last job etc. Sorry, I dont buy that Gruden or Cowher wouldnt take the Jets job, and I know theres alot of Tean in China.

I would say unequivocally that neither Cowher or Gruden would take the Jets job because of ONE MAN and that man is Woody Johnson. Guy is totally clueless about football and is in the process of ruining the SB for fans of whatever team happens to participate. The NFL will NEVER again take the suggestions of a turnip.

[MexiRoll6]

In fact, I still believe that JIMMY JOHNSON could still return to coaching.

For any other team but the Jets. Successful coaches don't want to risk their legacies to coach for a clueless owner.

[MexiRoll6]

There's a thread about Gary Kubiak getting fired. He lost 11 straight before that happened. Herm and Mangini also had late season collapses. If Rex finishes 6-10 I agree maybe it's time to go. But if he wins 2 out of 3, this year 8-8 he will be mediocre by most standards but it's actually a really good job with this roster. Consider the fact that almost 25 mil of the salary cap is being used on Sanchez and Revis (trade). 

Rex's teams have lost their last three games the last two seasons. Want to bet he makes it three? I think it's a shoo-in.

[sourceworx]

For any other team but the Jets. Successful coaches don't want to risk their legacies to coach for a clueless owner.

 

Mike Shanahan disagrees.

[MexiRoll6]

I have heard so many coaches say: I am never leaving this job, or I love this job so much, I'm staying. Even the coach I worship BILL PARCELLS "lied" saying things like this is his last job etc. Sorry, I dont buy that Gruden or Cowher wouldnt take the Jets job, and I know theres alot of Tean in China.

Parcells wrote a friggin book called the Final Season - then went and coached Dallas for like four years. Parcells is a born liar and it's no wonder Belichick wanted to get away from him. Don't get me wrong I worshipped the guy when he was here but I can't tolerate a guy who 'retires' his way to better gigs.

[joewillie78]

For any other team but the Jets. Successful coaches don't want to risk their legacies to coach for a clueless owner.

 

 

For any other team but the Jets. Successful coaches don't want to risk their legacies to coach for a clueless owner.

Unfortunately for us, you may be right.

[MexiRoll6]

Mike Shanahan disagrees.

And I would take Shanahan as Jets HC in a heartbeat. Guy loves the run game and knows how to develop QB's.

[joewillie78]

Parcells wrote a friggin book called the Final Season - then went and coached Dallas for like four years. Parcells is a born liar and it's no wonder Belichick wanted to get away from him. Don't get me wrong I worshipped the guy when he was here but I can't tolerate a guy who 'retires' his way to better gigs.

Remember, all "retired" coaches have an agenda, and that is to give the impression they will "never" coach again, so as to make sure an owner comes BEGGING with a checkbook WIDE OPEN.

 

That is why I buy none of the "I'm retired and never coaching again" crap.

[sourceworx]

And I would take Shanahan as Jets HC in a heartbeat. Guy loves the run game and knows how to develop QB's.

 

He went to work for Dan Snyder. Say what you will about Woody, but Snyder is much worse.

[MexiRoll6]

And for those who look at the struggles of RG III consider that Shanahan didn't want him in the first place, yet put together a sound run-option offense in place for him. This year RG's quickness is gone, and so is his desire to take hits running out of the pocket. RG III is simply NOT a good pocket QB which is why Shanahan didn't want him.

[joewillie78]

He went to work for Dan Snyder. Say what you will about Woody, but Snyder is much worse.

Is he?

[sourceworx]

Is he?

 

 

Have you followed the Redskins since he bought them?  Are you old enough to remember what they were like before he was their owner?

[joewillie78]

Have you followed the Redskins since he bought them?  Are you old enough to remember what they were like before he was their owner?

Yeah, I would say very much like the Jets, woeful to mediocre most years, with a year every now and then in the playoffs, like last year with RGIII rookie season, and I think when Gibbs came back that they may have made it one year.

 

I'm not saying he's a good owner, but to say anyone is worse than our current owner is very difficult for me to grasp.

[Green DNA]

ive been very anti Geno all year but if he can play going forward like he did against the Raiders, the Jets might not need to draft another QB. He was significantly better this week and (maybe) he turned a corner. 

 

Wait a second, after the relentless Geno bashing, that underwhelming performance against the Raiders has suddenly turned you into a convert?  What am I missing here? 

[joewillie78]

Wait a second, after the relentless Geno bashing, that underwhelming performance against the Raiders has suddenly turned you into a convert?  What am I missing here? 

Probably missing the chance to get either Johnny Manziel, AJ McCarron, Zach Mettenberg, Aaron Murray etc.

[bitonti]

Wait a second, after the relentless Geno bashing, that underwhelming performance against the Raiders has suddenly turned you into a convert?  What am I missing here? 

 

it's a fair question

 

first off his performance against the Raiders was one of his best all year. PFF says he had 2.67 seconds to throw the ball which is half a second off his season average.  I dont buy all of PFF's stats but they can usually be counted on for a stat like this which involves simple time keeping. Yet despite taking less time, he was highly productive and the Jets offense put up 30 points. the fact that he was throwing the ball in a timely fashion, is a huge step up for Geno. That was my biggest problem with Geno, that he would hold it all damn day. 

 

secondly i am gaining faith in the OC and the system. this actually might be the best OC we've seen since I can't remember when. I like the play calls, I like the coaching on the sideline... Marty Morn is the man (historically has worked with many QB's over the years) and i think he and Geno together is a nice mix. Marty also worked with Nick Foles last year, (found him in the draft actually) and that Nick Foles thread started my re-thinking of the whole situation. Foles and Geno Smith are actually the 2 most high profile Air Raid Qb's ever to go into the draft (this year Johnny Manziel will be included in that list) and the fact that Marty's worked with both of em is a really good sign. 

 

Long story short I believe Geno might have turned the corner. Yes i've been bashing him all year. I believe he deserved it back then. Im starting to come around. I Can't go back and retract all the bashing but i can predict his near future: believe he will have a strong december and the Jets won't draft a QB in rds 1 or 2.  

[Scott Dierking]

it's a fair question

 

first off his performance against the Raiders was one of his best all year. PFF says he had 2.67 seconds to throw the ball which is half a second off his season average. Yet he was highly productive and the Jets offense put up 30 points. the fact that he was throwing the ball in a timely fashion, is a huge step up for Geno.

 

secondly i am gaining faith in the OC and the system. this actually might be the best OC we've seen since I can't remember when. I like the play calls, I like the coaching on the sideline... Marty Morn is the man (historically has worked with many QB's over the years) and i think he and Geno together is a nice mix.

 

Long story short I believe he might have turned the corner. Yes i've been bashing him all year. Im starting to come around. I Can't go back and retract all the bashing but i can predict his near future: believe he will have a strong december and the Jets won't draft a QB in rds 1 or 2.  

I admire your adaptability to a position, as well fanaticism. 

 

I will remind you though, that you said the same exact thing about Sanchez, right about this time last year.

 

All that said, I do admire the want to have good happen for this team

[faba]

it's a fair question

 

first off his performance against the Raiders was one of his best all year. PFF says he had 2.67 seconds to throw the ball which is half a second off his season average. Yet he was highly productive and the Jets offense put up 30 points. the fact that he was throwing the ball in a timely fashion, is a huge step up for Geno.

 

secondly i am gaining faith in the OC and the system. this actually might be the best OC we've seen since I can't remember when. I like the play calls, I like the coaching on the sideline... Marty Morn is the man (historically has worked with many QB's over the years) and i think he and Geno together is a nice mix.

 

Long story short I believe he might have turned the corner. Yes i've been bashing him all year. Im starting to come around. I Can't go back and retract all the bashing but i can predict his near future: believe he will have a strong december and the Jets won't draft a QB in rds 1 or 2.  

We will find out a lot more against a tough defense in hostile environment this week from him. He has to show improvement in decision making and accuracy in those circumstances

[bitonti]

 I will remind you though, that you said the same exact thing about Sanchez, right about this time last year.

 

ouch

[Scott Dierking]

ouch

We have all been wrong, as much as we think we are all geniuses

[SenorGato]

If it is fate that drives things, why do we need coaches?

 

#science!

 

What They will, by will I mean Plan, is done. 

[SenorGato]

The boards second leading scientist has a pretty fair point.

 

The problem is that he doesn't THO. 

[joewillie78]

it's a fair question

 

first off his performance against the Raiders was one of his best all year. PFF says he had 2.67 seconds to throw the ball which is half a second off his season average.  I dont buy all of PFF's stats but they can usually be counted on for a stat like this which involves simple time keeping. Yet despite taking less time, he was highly productive and the Jets offense put up 30 points. the fact that he was throwing the ball in a timely fashion, is a huge step up for Geno. That was my biggest problem with Geno, that he would hold it all damn day. 

 

secondly i am gaining faith in the OC and the system. this actually might be the best OC we've seen since I can't remember when. I like the play calls, I like the coaching on the sideline... Marty Morn is the man (historically has worked with many QB's over the years) and i think he and Geno together is a nice mix. Marty also worked with Nick Foles last year, (found him in the draft actually) and that Nick Foles thread started my re-thinking of the whole situation. Foles and Geno Smith are actually the 2 most high profile Air Raid Qb's ever to go into the draft (this year Johnny Manziel will be included in that list) and the fact that Marty's worked with both of em is a really good sign. 

 

Long story short I believe Geno might have turned the corner. Yes i've been bashing him all year. I believe he deserved it back then. Im starting to come around. I Can't go back and retract all the bashing but i can predict his near future: believe he will have a strong december and the Jets won't draft a QB in rds 1 or 2.  

Oh no, does that mean based on your last sentence, that I will be screaming at my TV for the best available QB when the Jets pick and be resigned to wactching another d-lineman or d-back shake Goodell's hand?

[joewillie78]

The problem is that he doesn't THO. 

Ugh, you had to do this, now Ive forgotten what point he was making. Based on the fact that I agreed, it must have been a post ripping Rex or Ripping Geno, Is that correct?

[#27TheDominator]

And I would take Shanahan as Jets HC in a heartbeat. Guy loves the run game and knows how to develop QB's.

 

Ha.  According to everybody in DC you can have him.  Nobody likes him here. 

 

Remember, all "retired" coaches have an agenda, and that is to give the impression they will "never" coach again, so as to make sure an owner comes BEGGING with a checkbook WIDE OPEN.

 

That is why I buy none of the "I'm retired and never coaching again" crap.

 

Parcells is worse than that. The sh*t he pulled on Tampa was a crime.  He retires when it looks like he might tarnish his legacy then comes back to "turn around" some franchise.  Dierking likes to point out that player coaches have shelf lives, but Parcells was not a player's coach and he sure ran out of town before he reached his. 

[pedro55]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/

 

No stroke of genius on my part.  Just looked up a chart.  Sort away.  

 

 

 

The point is he is better than average by this measurement.  You don't have to agree, but the record is the record.  Take Matt Schaub.  Not a great QB, though he's clearly had some success.  Where is he in historical ranking (statistically, anyway)? Middle of the pack? I would say he's had an above average career statistically.  But you have to compare him to everyone who's been given a chance.  You can't remove the Kellen Clemens and Tim Tebow types from the comparison simply because they were SO much worse than Schaub that they weren't given as many years to QB their respective teams.  Even that stiff Sanchez is better than lots of other QBs.  When he's the worst ever, as people claim, they're only comparing him to those good enough to earn starting jobs in the first place (for multiple seasons).  I think he sucks and sucked.  But I'll take him any day over Akili Smith or Ryan Leaf or probably a hundred others who don't have the 50 starts to even compare to him statistically.

 

 

To not count those who were SO much worse than Rex that they were fired in only a season or two (or less) holds about as much water as eliminating those who coached for more than 7 years.  You can't cut off one half of the bell curve but not the other and claim any type of statistical proof.  I mean, you CAN, but no one's going to pay attention.

 

  A lot of these stats don't mean anything about the skills or talent.  Sometimes people are in the right situation at the right time, sometimes people aren't.  Nobody would consider Bill Calahan some great HC, but he wound up taking over a good Raiders team and they went to the super bowl.  You have other coaches who take over terrible organizations that have been terrible for years.   And they turn those franchises around.   Parcells might not be the greatest HC of all time, but the guy seemed to go into any situations and find a way to make that team into a playoff team.   Some guys only take over teams with some talent.   Some guys prefer defense, some offense.      Other coaches get lucky and wind up with HOF QBs.     

 

 And some coaches fall in love with a player and stick with him no matter what.  A guy like Sanchez might have been dumped in year 3 if somebody else was HC.  A guy like KC could have played more if Favre stays in Green Bay or they did trade him to the Vikings that year.   The problem with stats is people ignore the context around those metrics.   You can come up with whatever you like when you ignore the reality of situations.  

 

  If you just look at wins and losses between say Marvin Lewis and Rex Ryan,  the numbers aren't all that different considering Lewis has been HC for a few more seasons.   But the reality is the Bengals were a horrible franchise. A joke.  A loser.  The Jets might grab headlines, but ever since Parcells took over, they've pretty much been a 8-8 kind of club who makes the playoffs every few seasons.   They were never a 3-13 team year in and year out.    The Bengals were never a winning team for over a decade when Marvin took over.   Does that make Marvin a good HC, no, but sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers to get the real story.  Somebody taking over a team that has stunk for over a decade is far different than somebody taking over a 9-7 team who should have been 12-4.    

 

And the same goes for QBs.  Sanchez starting for somebody else besides the Jets and he's probably out of the NFL already.    Hell, if Manning never goes to the Broncos, Tebow is probably still playing in the NFL.    None of that makes those guys better or worse, it's just sometimes life works that way and it really isn't about who is better or worse.   Look at half the Jets practice squad like team this season.  Most of those guys wouldn't be playing on any other team.  If the Jets actually drafted a half decent WR, or even if Hill wound up being somewhat ok,  guys like Nelson aren't even on the team.  But hey they are and they wind up having crappy stats that make other guys not look as crappy.  That doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things.     

[Sperm Edwards]

  A lot of these stats don't mean anything about the skills or talent.  Sometimes people are in the right situation at the right time, sometimes people aren't.  Nobody would consider Bill Calahan some great HC, but he wound up taking over a good Raiders team and they went to the super bowl.  You have other coaches who take over terrible organizations that have been terrible for years.   And they turn those franchises around.   Parcells might not be the greatest HC of all time, but the guy seemed to go into any situations and find a way to make that team into a playoff team.   Some guys only take over teams with some talent.   Some guys prefer defense, some offense.      Other coaches get lucky and wind up with HOF QBs.     

 

 And some coaches fall in love with a player and stick with him no matter what.  A guy like Sanchez might have been dumped in year 3 if somebody else was HC.  A guy like KC could have played more if Favre stays in Green Bay or they did trade him to the Vikings that year.   The problem with stats is people ignore the context around those metrics.   You can come up with whatever you like when you ignore the reality of situations.  

 

  If you just look at wins and losses between say Marvin Lewis and Rex Ryan,  the numbers aren't all that different considering Lewis has been HC for a few more seasons.   But the reality is the Bengals were a horrible franchise. A joke.  A loser.  The Jets might grab headlines, but ever since Parcells took over, they've pretty much been a 8-8 kind of club who makes the playoffs every few seasons.   They were never a 3-13 team year in and year out.    The Bengals were never a winning team for over a decade when Marvin took over.   Does that make Marvin a good HC, no, but sometimes you have to look beyond the numbers to get the real story.  Somebody taking over a team that has stunk for over a decade is far different than somebody taking over a 9-7 team who should have been 12-4.

 

Of course.

 

Which is why the expectations for Ryan in 2013 are not the same as the expectations for John Fox in 2013.  Yet Ryan is being judged on the same plane.

 

Again, I'm fine with replacing Rex.  Just don't want it to be some reactionary move like hiring a QB coach because Josh McCown had a half dozen good games exclusively against the NFL's suckiest pass defenses (and brushing it off as meaningless when the Jets, with a horrid rookie Geno Smith, do the same to other bad D's like Atlanta & Oakland).  

 

Because the truth is once upon a time Brian Schottenheimer was credited with helping to turn around the career of Drew Brees and was also, for the first 2 years of his career, the QB coach for Philip Rivers.  Same coach who couldn't get Mark Sanchez to stop staring down his receivers for 3 straight years, and now I'm hearing (effectively) that this is Ryan's fault that Sanchez has and had a pea-brain to match with his wild arm.  People seriously think they didn't try 100 different ways to get Sanchez to stop doing that and just said, "Ah, f*ck it let's see how he does without coaching him" and then just threw him onto the field.  

 

At some point the player's going to absorb what's taught to him or he isn't going to or simply can't.  Or it's going to take a lot more than 3-4 years to sink in for some (Gannon, presumably McCown now, Warner, etc.).

[Scott Dierking]

Of course.

 

Which is why the expectations for Ryan in 2013 are not the same as the expectations for John Fox in 2013.  Yet Ryan is being judged on the same plane.

 

Again, I'm fine with replacing Rex.  Just don't want it to be some reactionary move like hiring a QB coach because Josh McCown had a half dozen good games exclusively against the NFL's suckiest pass defenses (and brushing it off as meaningless when the Jets, with a horrid rookie Geno Smith, do the same to other bad D's like Atlanta & Oakland).  

 

Because the truth is once upon a time Brian Schottenheimer was credited with helping to turn around the career of Drew Brees and was also, for the first 2 years of his career, the QB coach for Philip Rivers.  Same coach who couldn't get Mark Sanchez to stop staring down his receivers for 3 straight years, and now I'm hearing (effectively) that this is Ryan's fault that Sanchez has and had a pea-brain to match with his wild arm.  People seriously think they didn't try 100 different ways to get Sanchez to stop doing that and just said, "Ah, f*ck it let's see how he does without coaching him" and then just threw him onto the field.  

 

At some point the player's going to absorb what's taught to him or he isn't going to or simply can't.  Or it's going to take a lot more than 3-4 years to sink in for some (Gannon, presumably McCown now, Warner, etc.).

Would you agree that the expectations for any coaching staff is to see growth and progress in the team during the year. To see that team evolve with a galvanizing of units with a greater understanding of what they do well, and areas where firming up should take place. Where there should be at least some areas that the team is progressing?

 

With the 2013 Jets I look at the kicking game and it is the sole area that seems to be gelled and consistent. Can't even say that about D-line anymore.

 

For the last 3 years, this has been all to common place with the Jets. Regression over the year rather than progression.

[joewillie78]

Ha.  According to everybody in DC you can have him.  Nobody likes him here. 

 

 

Parcells is worse than that. The sh*t he pulled on Tampa was a crime.  He retires when it looks like he might tarnish his legacy then comes back to "turn around" some franchise.  Dierking likes to point out that player coaches have shelf lives, but Parcells was not a player's coach and he sure ran out of town before he reached his. 

No one ever mistook Bill for a nice guy. He wasnt. And if he didnt get his way, he was gone. Bill was alot of things and one of those just happened to be the best coach I have ever witnessed , getting the most out of a player, getting great players to ALWAYS be great, managing the game, and having complete Discipline on his team. In short, he was a bastard, but in my opinion, the best modern day coach ever.