Offensive Line

[Sperm Edwards]

19 minutes ago, HessStation said:

I could be too hung up on PFF grades but it's very hard to evaluate OL individually on your own. I just sorta think schemes have developed and that blind side LT isn't as predominantly more important as it once was. Just looking at this year's SB champs, their biggest and only weakness was LT w Peters out. You can go down the list of top teams and they all had really good G/interior play.

As far as placing additional need to replace Carpenter after C, is partly due to thinking Bates will install more zone blocking. That and I believe cutting Carpenter adds more cap space than cutting Beachum...that and again, I'm partially considering their 2017 advanced stats grades. Also considering value and risk to potential available replacements. 

PFF isn't worthless at all, but you should look at their grades with context. The Jets' OL was bad; the less-bad ones from 2017 got higher grades because the even-worse ones screwed up before the less-bad ones could get a chance to.

Look, all 5 of the OL positions need to be addressed over the next 2 seasons. They can't do all of them in 1 offseason. At best they can take care of 3 this year, so the most sound strategy is to have the last 2-3 as the easier positions to fill: G/RT or G/G. There's the other thing to consider, which is that they could draft a LT prospect who plays RT or LG for a year (possibly 2). 

All of that's based on who's available and for how much. But in the draft there always seem to be decent (or better) guard prospects among former college LTs.

Cutting Carpenter and cutting Beachum add almost the same space ($700K difference). Plus I wouldn't cut Beachum just because I found a LT. He's still better than Shell and could play RT. 

You can't just look at 1 team (Philadelphia) having a particular strength and weakness and presume it means the entire Jets roster now needs to be molded in exactly this way, nor to build a team for the long term, choosing long term needs based on temporarily feeling LG is slightly more of a need than LT. The rest of the players aren't the same, and all of their success required Foles catching fire and the refs letting most holding calls go. That doesn't happen all season long, nor should it be expected. 

Other than occasions where teams get lucky (finding LTs in the 4th or 7th round), in general you get LGs whenever you want; you get a LT specifically when value matches your draft slot in round 1.

[Sperm Edwards]

50 minutes ago, HessStation said:

If the question is whether I'd take a joe Thomas or Steve Hutchinson clone I'll take Thomas. I agree LT is a more valuable position but I think I'm just weighing in more of a risk/reward factor. I'm more sure of a Nelson or Price vs. McClinchey or Brown. That evens up the evaluation more or less. There's less risk of busts. There's no Orlando Pace's in this draft which is why I'd prefer Nelson,

The horrible reality is 70% of the starting LTs in football were drafted in round 1. Almost none of them were Orlando Paces in their respective drafts, but they were adequate. Some were/are terrible busts, but most of them turned out fine. If our GM can't draft a LT in round 1 - and doesn't know enough to trade back into round 1 if LT value is there - then fire him. 

I don't think Beachum is an emergency to replace, but he is neither good now nor is he a good long term solution. If a LT is attainable, you pounce on him and don't worry about Carpenter - still soon to be only 29 years old - coming off his first bad year. IMO he looked heavier and that could be part of the reason, or who knows why else.

I wouldn't prioritize LT anywhere near a position like QB, but it's the reason you don't piss away 1st round opportunities with a 5T DE and a SS/rover with #6 overall picks, and a 220-lb ILB with a top 20 pick, with the major-position needs on those rosters, just because there's some moderate consensus over strict/robotic BAP stupidity regardless of position.

[Warfish]

Our O-Line needs serious help.  Nuff' said. 

I hope the O-Line is a priority for a change.  Drafting Brick/Mangold helped build a very good O-Line for a very long time.

We're in need of that kind of draft once again.

[#27TheDominator]

4 hours ago, HessStation said:

I would like to remind the board who would have taken DeCastro instead of Coples but really, more importantly just wanted to pat myself on the back again.

 

Hess for GM guyz. FoReal.

I wanted Decastro too, but to be fair he missed most of his rookie year and did not make the pro bowl until his walk year.  He was a much easier 5th year option decision than Coples, but he signed for 5/$50M.  We can get a top guy for that money now.

Regarding the line - Beachum seems like a scheme fit and he is cheap, but certainly could be upgraded.  Winters is getting paid whether they cut him or not, so he is here.  My feelings about Shell are well documented, but he is cheap.  He should be moved inside or see significant competition.  Let the record show that 2018 will be his 3rd year - 2019 will be his contract year.  If he does not show he is an above average starter this offseason he should be on his way out.  Dozier is a FA and showed no reason to be back, Qvale has IMO.  I expect him to get a low $ offer.  

Carpenter is in his walk year.  He costs $2M no matter what, another $4.7M to keep.  He has been good in the past, so I would defer to Dennison and Bates about whether they can get more out of him. Note that he costs less than Winters and despite his play falling off in 2017, he was better than Winters. Johnson is my dark horse.  He is a smaller quicker guy and should fit the new scheme well.  His sh*tty play should mean he will be cheap.  I would make him a low dollar offer and still try to replace him.  He may do better in the new system and he should NOT earn starter money.  Giving him close to $3M for 2017 was an abomination and I complained about it at the time, despite the fact that I thought he was a more reasonably decent player than he turned out to be.

Ijalana should be gone. He would save almost $5M off the cap and only has $1.25M dead money.  They don't have much else there - just a couple of futures guys - Korren Kirven a T from Alabama that spent time in the Bucs camp that probably project to G without a draftable grade and Ben Braden a move oriented G/T from Michigan that projects at G with a 5th/PFA grade.  The one interesting guy we had in camp last year was Javarius Leamon, the huge kid from SC State.  They carried him until the end, but he never made the practice squad.  He spent time with the Cards and Bengals and signed a futures deal with the Bengals. 

I don't want to spend #6 on a G.  I don't know much about Nelson, I don't scout college interior line play.  OTOH, I agree with the FO feeling that you can get less players - usually Ts kicked inside to do the job.  If I am going to spend resources, I'd prefer it be money to get a known commodity.

[Jetsplayer21]

3 hours ago, BigO said:

Undubededdly. Our OL SUCKS. None of them are mainstays. A bunch of jags which are average to mediocre and are better served to provide depth than start for the most part.  I think Beecham and Winters still are under contract for another year. That however doesn’t prevent Mac from drafting their replacement this coming draft.  Carpenter and Johnson I believe can be cut or released. And Shell at RT is still a work in progress and an upgrade there would be wise. In other words, this entire OL should get a facelift over the next 2 years. A center and RT should immediately be prioritized. 

1 of these guys could end up staying for 19. That should be the #1 priority on both FA and draft this yr and next. Not qb. If you don’t have a strong line it doesn’t matter who your qb is

[Jetsplayer21]

40 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

PFF isn't worthless at all, but you should look at their grades with context. The Jets' OL was bad; the less-bad ones from 2017 got higher grades because the even-worse ones screwed up before the less-bad ones could get a chance to.

Look, all 5 of the OL positions need to be addressed over the next 2 seasons. They can't do all of them in 1 offseason. At best they can take care of 3 this year, so the most sound strategy is to have the last 2-3 as the easier positions to fill: G/RT or G/G. There's the other thing to consider, which is that they could draft a LT prospect who plays RT or LG for a year (possibly 2). 

All of that's based on who's available and for how much. But in the draft there always seem to be decent (or better) guard prospects among former college LTs.

Cutting Carpenter and cutting Beachum add almost the same space ($700K difference). Plus I wouldn't cut Beachum just because I found a LT. He's still better than Shell and could play RT. 

You can't just look at 1 team (Philadelphia) having a particular strength and weakness and presume it means the entire Jets roster now needs to be molded in exactly this way, nor to build a team for the long term, choosing long term needs based on temporarily feeling LG is slightly more of a need than LT. The rest of the players aren't the same, and all of their success required Foles catching fire and the refs letting most holding calls go. That doesn't happen all season long, nor should it be expected. 

Other than occasions where teams get lucky (finding LTs in the 4th or 7th round), in general you get LGs whenever you want; you get a LT specifically when value matches your draft slot in round 1.

Right but if Todd Bowles is the coach, the only way this team does well if we have a top 5-10 line. He will always hamstring the passing game, he admits he wants to run run , and run. He wants the mold of the jets 09/10 teams. Great D with strong running game. In order to do that he needs to make the OL and not his D for once the #1 priority. We didn’t lose the AFC championship games because we didn’t have a top qb. We lost them because we had 1 of the worst qbs in nfl. We can easily find a good qb in this day and age. If you notice more good ones are coming up faster, they aren’t sitting 1-3 yrs anymore, and the older ones are hanging around longer and doing well. Which translates into good qbs needing starting jobs unless more expansion teams come in. 

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Jetsplayer21 said:

Right but if Todd Bowles is the coach, the only way this team does well if we have a top 5-10 line. He will always hamstring the passing game, he admits he wants to run run , and run. He wants the mold of the jets 09/10 teams. Great D with strong running game. In order to do that he needs to make the OL and not his D for once the #1 priority. We didn’t lose the AFC championship games because we didn’t have a top qb. We lost them because we had 1 of the worst qbs in nfl. We can easily find a good qb in this day and age. If you notice more good ones are coming up faster, they aren’t sitting 1-3 yrs anymore, and the older ones are hanging around longer and doing well. Which translates into good qbs needing starting jobs unless more expansion teams come in. 

Agree with most of this, though you're probably going to get junc mail in your inbox lol.

Understand, I think Bowles is awful, but in fairness you can't judge how he coaches with substandard personnel and presume he'd do exactly the same thing with a deadly QB. In 3 years his QBs have been Fitzpatrick and McCown, with a handful of starts from Bryce Petty. The higher-drafted young/younger prospects he was granted were Geno Smith and Christian Hackenberg.

Would he want to still be a run-centric team that exact same way with a deadly passer? It's possible, but it's far from certain. How he coached with Josh McCown and Bryce Petty is not a guaranteed measuring stick for how he'd coach no matter who was the QB.

[Jetsplayer21]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Agree with most of this, though you're probably going to get junc mail in your inbox lol.

Understand, I think Bowles is awful, but in fairness you can't judge how he coaches with substandard personnel and presume he'd do exactly the same thing with a deadly QB. In 3 years his QBs have been Fitzpatrick and McCown, with a handful of starts from Bryce Petty. The higher-drafted young/younger prospects he was granted were Geno Smith and Christian Hackenberg.

Would he want to still be a run-centric team that exact same way with a deadly passer? It's possible, but it's far from certain. How he coached with Josh McCown and Bryce Petty is not a guaranteed measuring stick for how he'd coach no matter who was the QB.

Fitzpatrick that 1 yr, and McCown last yr were ranked around 15th in the league. Sure they are bad names but did well. Of course fitz was a fluke yr, and McCown last yr was likely the same. Every other area was weaker than the qb last yr. D, rbs, the OL near last in the league. We had ave at best receivers. Again why are we always going back to the qb, when every other area was much worse. I’m not saying don’t try to upgrade at qb, but Todd Bowles had 2 yrs of pretty good qb play and didn’t make the playoffs. Rex Ryan had one of the worst qb play on nfl both yrs we made deep in playoffs. In fairness Rex had a better overall roster. The OL was the anchor and carried Sanchez on his back 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Fitzpatrick that 1 yr, and McCown last yr were ranked around 15th in the league. Sure they are bad names but did well. Of course fitz was a fluke yr, and McCown last yr was likely the same. Every other area was weaker than the qb last yr. D, rbs, the OL near last in the league. We had ave at best receivers. Again why are we always going back to the qb, when every other area was much worse. I’m not saying don’t try to upgrade at qb, but Todd Bowles had 2 yrs of pretty good qb play and didn’t make the playoffs. Rex Ryan had one of the worst qb play on nfl both yrs we made deep in playoffs. In fairness Rex had a better overall roster. The OL was the anchor and carried Sanchez on his back 

Some would say he coached 2 career zeros into their best ever seasons.

Mind you, I'm not one of those who'd say that. But some would.

[Untouchable]

Provided that we land Cousins, I still say a damn good way to get the OL back on the right track is to sign a quality center like Jensen/Richburg and take Nelson at #6 assuming that Barkley and Chubb are gone.

If we don’t get Cousins, then sign Norwell in addition to one of the top centers and draft a QB in the Top 6.

Beachum is a respectable starting LT when healthy and as already pointed out, he’s going to be back for at least the 2018 season anyway. I’m not sure why so many are seemingly down on Shell. I think he’s been pretty damn solid at RT. Only game I can think of him sucking in was the early Miami game where Wake ate his ass for breakfast. But then again Wake does that to 75% of the OT’s in the league anyway.

I’d take a shot on a mid-round developmental OT to groom behind Beachum. Someone like Alex Cappa or Greg Senat.

The Jets aren’t going to be able to fill every hole this offseason anyway.

[Jetsplayer21]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Some would say he coached 2 career zeros into their best ever seasons.

Mind you, I'm not one of those who'd say that. But some would.

Ha I would” LOL “ pretty hard at anyone who said a qb had a great yr “ because of Todd Bowles “?

[DMan77]

On 2/14/2018 at 4:22 PM, Untouchable said:

Provided that we land Cousins, I still say a damn good way to get the OL back on the right track is to sign a quality center like Jensen/Richburg and take Nelson at #6 assuming that Barkley and Chubb are gone.

 Nelson is awesome and I'd celebrate! But I think the biggest priority is a tackle, so I'd look to take maybe Orlando Brown or Mike McGlinchey... Or even maybe a guy like Billy Price who could take over at Center quickly. But that might be high for them at 6...

I think the best plan with this scenario would be to trade down from 6th and try to get into the 12-16 range... I know that's an unpopular opinion, and I'll probably change my mind 100 times here, I would be excited with that kind of move.  Maybe we lose out on a blue-chip/top 10 player... But we need talent all over the field. If we can get a starting tackle and stock pile some picks, I'd be happy.

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

No matter how good the guard is, I don’t think this team can afford to draft a guard @ 6.  

We have no edge rusher, we’re weak at corner, we need offensive tackles and we don’t have a quarterback.  

If we draft Nelson @ 6, we will have selected a five technique, an inside linebacker, a strong safety, and a guard with four years of first round picks - three of which were selected sixth overall.  

You just don’t build winning teams that way.