Baker Mayfield meeting with Jets Brass(yesterday and today.)

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

I dont think you can move a goal post when it comes to someones height.  You kind of are what you are but either way, I gave you the 6'1 and under option because of exactly this type of response.  Still changes your list significantly. 

The height "nonesense" is a thing and always has been in the NFL.  When was a QB under 6'1 taken in the top 5? 

 

Yes you can. Let me quote you. 

Quote

Yes but Mayfield isnt even 6'1.  So you'd have to tweak this research to 6'0 and under or 6'1 if you want to give Mayfield a quarter inch. Either way, that list will shrink significantly. 

Here you're basically saying that the guys under 6'2 really dont count because baker is technically under 6'1. Then you said the highlighted part, so in otherwords him being 6'1 is me "giving it to him" yet you're talking about doing the research at 6'0 which is taking away 3/4 of an inch...yet you dont mention how that would be taken away from him. 

The fact that we're talking inches, and now fractions of inches prove my point of how ridiculous this topic has become. Generally speaking, sure height is a conversation....but what you just did is exactly what im talking about. No one can tell me on a down-by-down basis guys who's 6'0 5/8 vs 6'1 5/8 are at a tremendous disadvantage, especially when all of them are still under 6'2 which is considered the standard only because Aaron Rodgers was 6'2...until he actually wasnt. 

The level of micromanaging height is not football, its ridiculous. Please, all I ask is for someone to show me how height disrupted Mayfield's ability to play. That will clear this up immediately. If not, then as stated, its simply moving of the goal posts in order to make height "a thing". 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Yes you can. Let me quote you. 

Here you're basically saying that the guys under 6'2 really dont count because baker is technically under 6'1. Then you said the highlighted part, so in otherwords him being 6'1 is me "giving it to him" yet you're talking about doing the research at 6'0 which is taking away 3/4 of an inch...yet you dont mention how that would be taken away from him. 

The fact that we're talking inches, and now fractions of inches prove my point of how ridiculous this topic has become. Generally speaking, sure height is a conversation....but what you just did is exactly what im talking about. No one can tell me on a down-by-down basis guys who's 6'0 5/8 vs 6'1 5/8 are at a tremendous disadvantage, especially when all of them are still under 6'2 which is considered the standard only because Aaron Rodgers was 6'2...until he actually wasnt. 

The level of micromanaging height is not football, its ridiculous. Please, all I ask is for someone to show me how height disrupted Mayfield's ability to play. That will clear this up immediately. If not, then as stated, its simply moving of the goal posts in order to make height "a thing". 

So, no QB's under 6'1 have been taken in the top 5?

 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, JiF said:

So, no QB's under 6'1 have been taken in the top 5?

 

Show me footage of games where height has been an issue for Baker Mayfield performing on the field and I'll convert right now. 

I dont need anything else but that. 

[JustInFudge]

6 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Show me footage of games where height has been an issue for Baker Mayfield performing on the field and I'll convert right now. 

I dont need anything else but that. 

I personally dont think height is an issue.  I was just pointing out how your research was flawed and how height, isnt some new era "pre-draft talk nonsense".

 

[Bruce Harper]

Mayfield is going to be very good in the pros.  I base this statement not on his height but on his history, tape and record as a player.  Sure most NFL QBs are taller these days but there are exceptions to every rule (like Brees and Wilson).  He is a quick decision-maker, has very quick feet and is as accurate as anyone coming out of college in a long time.  You have to look at the whole package -- not just some arbitrary guideline.

[Villain The Foe]

36 minutes ago, JiF said:

I personally dont think height is an issue.  I was just pointing out how your research was flawed and how height, isnt some new era "pre-draft talk nonsense".

 

That would hold weight if I was debating over Mayfield's draft position, but pointing out the obvious pre-draft nonsense which is micromanaging height down to the quarter inch while at the same time pretending like height isnt an issue means that you're playing more than just devils advocate. 

Like I said, show me footage and not opinion I'll shut up

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

That would hold weight if I was debating over Mayfield's draft position, but pointing out the obvious pre-draft nonsense which is micromanaging height down to the quarter inch while at the same time pretending like height isnt an issue means that you're playing more than devils advocate. 

Like I said, show me footage and not opinion I'll shut up

Huh?  You made a long winded inaccurate post about height in the league and then you called height "pre-draft talk" - again, I'm simply pointing out your research is flawed and height isnt some new era predraft hysteria. 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, JiF said:

Huh?  You made a long winded inaccurate post about height in the league and then you called height "pre-draft talk" - again, I'm simply pointing out your research is flawed and height isnt some new era predraft hysteria. 

I called "The talk on Mayfield's height...pre-draft talk". 

 

Keep pretending though. 

[Beerfish]

His height is only one factor in his troubles to come in the NFL.

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

This height nonsense is nonsense and is basically pre-draft talk.

 

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

I called "The talk on Mayfield's height...pre-draft talk". 

 

Keep pretending though. 

Pretending, what?  lmfao I'm quoting you, dude. 

[Villain The Foe]

3 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

Pretending, what?  lmfao I'm quoting you, dude. 

You're not quoting me, which is the pretend. What you're actually doing is not showing footage of Baker Mayfield having issues with being a QB because of his height. 

 

How about that, how about showing me footage. I mean, for a person who claims to not be convinced on any of these QB's you sure talk alot about them. Show footage of his height being an issue and limiting his performance on the field. 

Simple as that. You dont have to quote me, I dont have to debate you.....it should be right on tape. Show me. But know, anything you say outside of showing me is irrelevant. 

[Savage69]

12 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

That would hold weight if I was debating over Mayfield's draft position, but pointing out the obvious pre-draft nonsense which is micromanaging height down to the quarter inch while at the same time pretending like height isnt an issue means that you're playing more than just devils advocate. 

Like I said, show me footage and not opinion I'll shut up

Maybe these guys may want to look at 6'7 Mike Glennon again if height is the main factor in a QB's success??

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Savage69 said:

Maybe these guys may want to look at 6'7 Mike Glennon again if height is the main factor in a QB's success??

Dude, why you have to take it there though.

[JustInFudge]

2 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

You're not quoting me,

I'm not quoting you?  WTF?  lmfao

You've gone straight looney tunes my friend.

 

 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, JiF said:

I'm not quoting you?  WTF?  lmfao

You've gone straight looney tunes my friend.

 

 

You were paraphrasing which was the problem.

 

And this was also irrelevant. Show me the footage. 

[jgb]

3 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Besides Manziel who is best comparator for Mayfield?  Well before Russell Wilson they almost never got drafted before the middle rounds.  The last really small qb who got drafted in the first round was Cade McNown in 1999 who was a bust.

 Since then and before smaller system qbs who won Heismans like Troy Smith (6’0) and Josh Heupel (6’1) got drafted in the 5th round and did nothing in the nfl.

 

Our own experience with smaller qbs isn’t great.  Kellen Clemens (listed at 6’2 was really 6’0) was a bust and Brooks Bollinger (6’0) stunk

 

Russell Wilson made smaller qbs trendy.  But Wilson is a great athlete (4.4 40) with an off the charts football iq who learned two playbooks in college

 

 

 

I know many say it's lazy but Manziel (pre-draft version) is the best comparator. High risk/high reward. Yes he flopped, but doesn't mean Mayfield will also. Problem with comparing a guy to Wilson or Brees is that they are already known success stories who were taken outside rd. 1. Mayfield will be a first rounder. Pre-draft Manziel is the compartor imho.

[Savage69]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Dude, why you have to take it there though.

Your equal opportunity QB defender you defend both the Tall and small even if they can't ball.. But If Rosen is gone I also like Mayfield..

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Savage69 said:

Your equal opportunity QB defender you defend both the Tall and small even if they can't ball.. But If Rosen is gone I also like Mayfield..

I just spread the love brother lmao! One of these days I'll land in the middle and find a 6'4 QB that can actually play! 

[Pcola]

2 hours ago, Villain The Foe said:

Lets end this "he's too short" fallacy

Here a list of QB's that are under 6'2 that had very good to great careers in the league. Please take into consideration the many Hall of Famers, Future Hall of Famers and All-Time Greats on this very "short" list. The guys who are Bolded are the All-Time Greats who are arguably the greatest QB to ever play the sport. 

Tony Romo (4x Pro Bowler & All pro)

Mike Vick (4x Pro Bowler & Comeback player of the year)

Joe Montana (HOF'er)

Steve Young (HOF'er)

Johnny Unitas (HOF'er)

Otto Graham (HOF'er)

Kurt Warner (HOF'er)

Bart Starr (HOF'er)

Joe Namath (HOF'er)

Y.A. Tittle (HOF'er)

Drew Brees (Future HOF'er)

Russel Wilson (Future HOF'er)

Fran Tarkenton (HOF'er)

Sonny Jurgensen (HOF'er)

George Blanda (HOF'er)

Brian Sipe (NFL MVP)

Jeff Garcia (4x Pro Bowler)

John Hadl (2x Pro Bowler, NFC POTY)

Joe Theismann (Offensive POTY & All-Pro)

John Brodie (NFL MVP)

Mark Brunell (3x Pro Bowler, passing yards leader in a season)

Steve McNair (NFL MVP)

Earl Morrall (NFL MVP) 

Bobby Lane (NFL and College HOF'er)

Bob Griese (NFL and College HOF'er)

Donavan McNabb (6x Pro Bowler, future HOF'er)

Norm Van Brocklin (NFL and College HOF'er)

Ken Anderson (4x Pro Bowler & All Pro) 

Len Dawson (HOF'er)

Sid Luckman (NFL and College HOF'er)

Sammy Baugh (NFL and College HOF'er)

We have HOF'ers from every era, We have 4 of the greatest QB's to ever play the game which includes the immortal Joe Montana, we have MVP's, pro bowlers, College HOF'ers...the works. Damnit, the greatest QB in Jets History is on this list. 

Lets be real here folks. This height thing is as lazy as the Johnny Manziel comparisons, just as lazy as talking about him being a partier or every two minutes bringing up the same cop GIF/video from over a year ago as if it happened earlier this month. 

These are over 30 quarterbacks, most HOF'ers or future HOF'ers, from every era of the game that are about the same height as Baker Mayfield (or shorter) and are all under 6'2. 

Let it go. 

 

First, when most of these dinosaurs played, the OL weren’t anywhere near as big as they are today.  

And this has been posted in either this thread or others, Mayfield is 6’ & 5/8” so if he were literary 1/4” shorter, they would round down to 6’ even, so definitely not 6’2”.

Also, as posted in other threads, the OK spread offense artificially created the passing lanes for him.

So reality check: 1 QB in the past 35 years that was under 6’2” has been drafted in the top 10 and that was Michael Vick.

5 years ago, Mayfield would be a second rounder and probably have a great career as the pressures of being the highest drafted QB basically since the current draft set up (1967) for whatever team takes him, is going to be too big an obstacle.  The desperation for QBs has inflated the importance of the position and therefore pushed QBs way up the draft board.  Hence, the reason you can find starters in just about any round but non-top 10 drafted QBs have a long road ahead of them.

If he doesn’t light it up the minute he walks on the field, the vultures will be on him.  Specially if Darnold or Rosen out play him early.  The question will be how does he handle that kind of adversity.  Will he trust the organization that took a chance on him or will he go rogue?

Lets admit, the NY media is going to create a circus around him.  He won’t deserve it but undoubtedly it will come.  At least in Cleveland, they can’t do any worse than the past two years.

[JustInFudge]

55 minutes ago, JiF said:

I personally dont think height is an issue. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

You were paraphrasing which was the problem.

 

And this was also irrelevant. Show me the footage. 

Sssssshhhhhhh it's ok honey.  You've gone a little wacko but I still love you.

[Villain The Foe]

33 minutes ago, jgb said:

I know many say it's lazy but Manziel (pre-draft version) is the best comparator. High risk/high reward. Yes he flopped, but doesn't mean Mayfield will also. Problem with comparing a guy to Wilson or Brees is that they are already known success stories who were taken outside rd. 1. Mayfield will be a first rounder. Pre-draft Manziel is the compartor imho.

That's hard to say because many of the comparisons are specified as "NFL comparisons". Folks who are comparing Mayfield to Manziel are doing so not because of his ability on the field, which is the general nature of the comparison, but they're doing it based on perceived personality and height. 

I personally agree with Walterfootball's NFL Comparison which is a Rich Man's version of Jeff Garcia. Folks who are comparing Baker/Manziel are mostly being lazy or following the leader. At first glance when you see him he looks alot like Johnny Manziel used to look while at A&M, however, having been able to watch OU games for the past 2 seasons the guy is a much better passer than Manziel...it's not even a debate. And if that's the primary skill of a quarterback then how can he be compared to a guy who's has never even been on the same level of quarterbacking coming out of college or even in the Pros?

There are traits, things that may remind folks of Manziel, sure, but they're not similar in quarterbacking, they're just not. 

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

 

Sssssshhhhhhh it's ok honey.  You've gone a little wacko but I still love you.

Footage bro. Stop wasting your time damage controlling. Footage or just go back to not being convinced about any of these QBs. 

[JustInFudge]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Footage bro. Stop wasting your time damage controlling. Footage or just go back to not being convinced about any of these QBs. 

 

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I personally dont think height is an issue.  

 

[Villain The Foe]

5 minutes ago, Pcola said:

First, when most of these dinosaurs played, the OL weren’t anywhere near as big as they are today.  

Half these guys played in my lifetime and im in my 30's. 

We can keep moving the goal posts, but it wont change the facts of the matter. 

 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, JiF said:

 

 

Stop playing devils advocate then. 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

That's hard to say because many of the comparisons are specified as "NFL comparisons". Folks who are comparing Mayfield to Manziel are doing so not because of his ability on the field, which is the general nature of the comparison, but they're doing it based on perceived personality and height. 

I personally agree with Walterfootball's NFL Comparison which is a Rich Man's version of Jeff Garcia. Folks who are comparing Baker/Mayfield are mostly being lazy or following the leader. At first glance when you see him he looks alot like Johnny Manziel used to look while at A&M, however, having been able to watch OU games for the past 2 seasons the guy is a much better passer than Manziel...it's not even a debate. And if that's the primary skill of a quarterback then how can he be compared to a guy who's has never even been on the same level of quarterbacking coming out of college or even in the Pros?

There are traits, things that may remind folks of Manziel, sure, but they're not similar in quarterbacking, they're just not. 

good post. So the question is, let's say he turns into Jeff Garcia. Worth #3?

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

good post. So the question is, let's say he turns into Jeff Garcia. Worth #3?

If he turns into the "Rich man's version of Jeff Garcia" which is what they called him, indeed he is worth a 3rd. 

[JustInFudge]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Stop playing devils advocate then. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

If he turns into the "Rich man's version of Jeff Garcia" which is what they called him, indeed he is worth a 3rd. 

Missed that part. It's midnight here. Who is rich man's jeff garcia? Rich Gannon?

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, JiF said:

lol. You're a good sport Jif! 

[Villain The Foe]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Missed that part. It's midnight here. Who is rich man's jeff garcia? Rich Gannon?

No, Gannon's first 10 years in the league was nothing. I perceive being a "rich man's version" as being able to consistently be what the player you're being compared to was....at the top of his game. 

If Mayfield has the impact in this era that Garcia had in his first 4 years...and did it consistently I would take that. That's a franchise QB. That's not elite, no....but that's top 10 all day long. 

[jgb]

Just now, Villain The Foe said:

No, Gannon's first 10 years in the league was nothing. I perceive being a "rich man's version" as being able to consistently be what the player you're being compared to was....at the top of his game. 

If Mayfield has the impact in this era that Garcia had in his first 4 years...and did it consistently I would take that. That's a franchise QB. That's not elite, no....but that's top 10 all day long. 

Gotcha. So half a early garcia, plus a late gannon with maybe the consistency of a oh i don't know... healthy chad pennington

[Villain The Foe]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Gotcha. So half a early garcia, plus a late gannon with maybe the consistency of a oh i don't know... healthy chad pennington

The funny thing about that is Chad Pennington has the all time record in completion percentage. Granted, Drew Brees will evetually have that when he retires. Point being, One of Mayfield's strong points is obviously his completion rate. What killed Penny was when it was obvious passing down in the 4th quarter and the defense knew we couldnt run. Penny's arm wasnt strong enough to make the right throws, and he end up being picked off alot during those obvious passing downs. Now imagine Chad Pennington with Baker Mayfield's arm. That's essentially Baker Mayfield! lol. 

[Bruce Harper]

First, when most of these dinosaurs played, the OL weren’t anywhere near as big as they are today.  
And this has been posted in either this thread or others, Mayfield is 6’ & 5/8” so if he were literary 1/4” shorter, they would round down to 6’ even, so definitely not 6’2”.
Also, as posted in other threads, the OK spread offense artificially created the passing lanes for him.
So reality check: 1 QB in the past 35 years that was under 6’2” has been drafted in the top 10 and that was Michael Vick.
5 years ago, Mayfield would be a second rounder and probably have a great career as the pressures of being the highest drafted QB basically since the current draft set up (1967) for whatever team takes him, is going to be too big an obstacle.  The desperation for QBs has inflated the importance of the position and therefore pushed QBs way up the draft board.  Hence, the reason you can find starters in just about any round but non-top 10 drafted QBs have a long road ahead of them.
If he doesn’t light it up the minute he walks on the field, the vultures will be on him.  Specially if Darnold or Rosen out play him early.  The question will be how does he handle that kind of adversity.  Will he trust the organization that took a chance on him or will he go rogue?
Lets admit, the NY media is going to create a circus around him.  He won’t deserve it but undoubtedly it will come.  At least in Cleveland, they can’t do any worse than the past two years.

Now we’re subtracting height to support your argument?

I can’t see him wilting under the pressure. I think he’s the toughest of the bunch.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Pcola]

34 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Half these guys played in my lifetime and im in my 30's. 

We can keep moving the goal posts, but it wont change the facts of the matter. 

 

Are you saying the game that Montana played in 1979 is the same game we are watching in 2018?

I found an article in Business Insider that had the average size of the NFL OL from the 1970’s at 6’3  255.  In 2015, it was 6’5 312.  I’m pretty certain the DL would have similar results.

So basically Joe Montana would need to be 2” taller to perform like he did back then.

So for everyone that says height is not a problem, how come there has only been 1 QB drafted in the top 10 in the past 35 drafts that were under 6’2?

Serious question.

And why there are currently only two QBs that have sustained success in the NFL (Brees & Wilson.)

Look, I don’t hate Mayfield, I would run to the podium with him name on the card if Darnold or Rosen are gone.  But he is not in the same class as those two QBs.  In fact, 10 years from now, he won’t have the career that Darnold, Rosen, Barkley, or Chubb has.  The reason he is a top 5 pick is because of the amount of desperation in the league now.