Why does Bellicheck get so much respect?

[GimmeShelter]

I assume Like Bit your sure Martin will avg 1416 yds per year for the next 3 years too? What's old is the Martinette's just caring about the carries of their Hero and not what's good for the team!

NOPE never said that just amazed how you can turn any thread topic into a game of Six Degrees of Curtis Martin.

[YJF]

The defensive version of Bill Walsh is how I would put Bill Belichick. (What's with these guys named Bill).... Belichick is a brilliant football coach. No disputing that and his track record speaks for itself.

Bill Belichick has been to alot of superbowls as a coach. He won with The Giants and The Pats. Built a dynasty in new england. One of the best football minds ever.

[SouthernJet]

The defensive version of Bill Walsh is how I would put Bill Belichick. (What's with these guys named Bill).... Belichick is a brilliant football coach. No disputing that and his track record speaks for itself.

Bill Belichick has been to alot of superbowls as a coach. He won with The Giants and The Pats. Built a dynasty in new england. One of the best football minds ever.

agree, ,and you couple that with a ability to separate emotionally from long time players .. thats why they get better, he knows when to cut loose a vet, ,he doesnt fall into the 'Lets get Curtis Martin the record' traps

[Savage69]

NOPE never said that just amazed how you can turn any thread topic into a game of Six Degrees of Curtis Martin.

It's off season and I'm bored! The thing is Homer's look at things differently if one of their players do something as opposed to the same thing if a player on another Team does it! For Years we heard Fiedler sucks until he became a Jet! Then it was a Great pick up! Same with Wanny who won more Games then Hermie and never had a season worse then 9-7 until his last when he resigned! Here's another one! About a year ago I asked some Martinette's in just pure Talent as a RB who was better,Cumar,Terrell Davis or Bo Jackson! Now this isn't Longevity or Durability, Just Talent! I don't have to tell you who they picked do I??

[Scott Dierking]

How can you compare a Man's service to his Country to a Muti Million Dollar Players Contract! I signed for 4 years and forfilled My obligation! That Analogy is really Dumb..I thought you were better then that Scott!

The Contract part that the Pats couldn't agree to was the part that let the PLAYER void it after 1 year! That's why the League office declared it illegal in any future Deals!

Did Martin fulfill his commiment to the Pats? What part didn't he fulfill?

If you are to compare an analogy of BB and CM and their contracts and consider it debatable, then an analogy of your service to teh country and CM's service to teh pats are appropriate.

I agree they are dumb, but you were the first one to introduce dumb into the equation.

If you are advocating a repeal of all Free Agencey, and the system that is place in sports, that is another story an d not a CM one alone.

[Scott Dierking]

It's off season and I'm bored! The thing is Homer's look at things differently if one of their players do something as opposed to the same thing if a player on another Team does it! For Years we heard Fiedler sucks until he became a Jet! Then it was a Great pick up! Same with Wanny who won more Games then Hermie and never had a season worse then 9-7 until his last when he resigned! Here's another one! About a year ago I asked some Martinette's in just pure Talent as a RB who was better,Cumar,Terrell Davis or Bo Jackson! Now this isn't Longevity or Durability, Just Talent! I don't have to tell you who they picked do I??

Name names, just so I am assured you are not lumping me into this so called group you are calling out.

[Savage69]

Did Martin fulfill his commiment to the Pats? What part didn't he fulfill?

If you are to compare an analogy of BB and CM and their contracts and consider it debatable, then an analogy of your service to teh country and CM's service to teh pats are appropriate.

I agree they are dumb, but you were the first one to introduce dumb into the equation.

If you are advocating a repeal of all Free Agencey, and the system that is place in sports, that is another story an d not a CM one alone.

Hey Had you said RFA instead of FA I wouldn't have responded! To me I could agree BB wasn't being Loyal to the Jets, but keep in mind he was the HC until the Jets saw a way to get Tuna instead! That probley always burned BB! And BTW I was Loyal to my Country and risked my Life for alot less then I could have made as a Civilian! Martin was not Loyal to the Pats however you want to spin it! He wanted his Daddy Tuna! And why do you always resort to personal attacks Scott?? I'm Old, Dumb etc Your getting as bad as the Kids on JI!

[Savage69]

Name names, just so I am assured you are not lumping me into this so called group you are calling out.

Getting Paranoid Scotty?? It wasn't on this site and you were no part of it! But since you asked why not answer the question now?

[Scott Dierking]

Hey Had you said RFA instead of FA I wouldn't have responded! To me I could agree BB wasn't being Loyal to the Jets, but keep in mind he was the HC until the Jets saw a way to get Tuna instead! That probley always burned BB! And BTW I was Loyal to my Country and risked my Life for alot less then I could have made as a Civilian! Martin was not Loyal to the Pats however you want to spin it! He wanted his Daddy Tuna! And why do you always resort to personal attacks Scott?? I'm Old, Dumb etc Your getting as bad as the Kids on JI!

Where did I call YOU dumb?

I may have said a statement yopu made was dumb (as you did with mine), show me where I said YOU were dumb. Talk about paranoid.

As far as old, well, I can't really defend that now deny it. When you are 50% my elder (practically), I am sorry, that is old to me.

The same can be said to me by many here.

You are not pretty playing a victim. It just doesn't ring soundly.

[Scott Dierking]

Getting Paranoid Scotty?? It wasn't on this site and you were no part of it! But since you asked why not answer the question now?

Sav-Lets' just say that when you get in a dialogue, you tend to paint with a rather broad brush, and that brush inadvertantly (intentionally?) ensnares others in its wake.

Lets leave it at that.

[Savage69]

Sav-Lets' just say that when you get in a dialogue, you tend to paint with a rather broad brush, and that brush inadvertantly (intentionally?) ensnares others in its wake.

Lets leave it at that.

And Lets notice Jet Fans Scotty didn't answer the Question!

[Savage69]

Where did I call YOU dumb?

I may have said a statement yopu made was dumb (as you did with mine), show me where I said YOU were dumb. Talk about paranoid.

As far as old, well, I can't really defend that now deny it. When you are 50% my elder (practically), I am sorry, that is old to me.

The same can be said to me by many here.

You are not pretty playing a victim. It just doesn't ring soundly.

You postedbut you were the first one to introduce dumb into the equation I guess you meant Max?? My Bad!

[Scott Dierking]

And Lets notice Jet Fans Scotty didn't answer the Question!

I learn from the master, I guess.

I have overly stated to you where I feel that CM is in line with relation to other NFL RB's in the past 30 years. Ad nauseum.

No point in rehashing what has been rehashed 20 times already.

[Scott Dierking]

You postedbut you were the first one to introduce dumb into the equation I guess you meant Max?? My Bad!

You introduced "dumb" by your statement. That is not calling YOU dumb.

Semantics my chap, learn semantics.

[Savage69]

I learn from the master, I guess.

I have overly stated to you where I feel that CM is in line with relation to other NFL RB's in the past 30 years. Ad nauseum.

No point in rehashing what has been rehashed 20 times already.

Scottie you have to run for Politics..And you didn't learn that from me! I answer questions because their are always new posters that may not know what the answer was..

[Scott Dierking]

Scottie you have to run for Politics..And you didn't learn that from me! I answer questions because their are always new posters that may not know what the answer was..

Oh Really????

When will I be seeing teh contract specifics that NE had out? That is left unanswered as I requested. You said they offered him the same amount.

They may have. I don't know. But you seem to have specifics. Care to pony up?

[SouthernJet]

[Savage69]

Oh Really????

When will I be seeing teh contract specifics that NE had out? That is left unanswered as I requested. You said they offered him the same amount.

They may have. I don't know. But you seem to have specifics. Care to pony up?

It was posted on this Board in the last 2 weeks if you remember! The Jets offerend a 1 year 4 million wait I think I have one the Links..

http://www.s-t.com/daily/04-98/04-07-98/zzzspcap.htm

[Scott Dierking]

It was posted on this Board in the last 2 weeks if you remember! The Jets offerend a 1 year 4 million wait I think I have one the Links..

http://www.s-t.com/daily/04-98/04-07-98/zzzspcap.htm

You said NE offered him the same money?

i can't recall that fact-They may have.

That link you posted says nothing of that sort.

[Savage69]

You said NE offered him the same money?

i can't recall that fact-They may have.

That link you posted says nothing of that sort.

Here's the thing Scott! The Pats couldn't match the 1 year Deal because then Martin would have left after 1 year and they would have got nothing! They Matched the other Deal I believe(Must ask Tex or a Pat Fan) but they knew that Martin wanted to be with Daddy Tuna who they got picks for in 97! They were in a No win situation to try and keep a player that didn't want to be there! Martin's Loyalty was to the Tuna not the Team!

[Scott Dierking]

Here's the thing Scott! The Pats couldn't match the 1 year Deal because then Martin would have left after 1 year and they would have got nothing! They Matched the other Deal I believe(Must ask Tex or a Pat Fan) but they knew that Martin wanted to be with Daddy Tuna who they got picks for in 97! They were in a No win situation to try and keep a player that didn't want to be there! Martin's Loyalty was to the Tuna not the Team!

So what you are telling me is that you CAN'T verify your statement that the Pats had matched the monetary value of the contract, as you had stated. Fair enough. I didn't remeber that portion of it.

If, in fact, the Patriots had offered the same monies to CM, and he still bolted, then your case of "traitorism" may hold some water. Without that, your case is still somewhat lacking.

But I know you know that already.

[Savage69]

So what you are telling me is that you CAN'T verify your statement that the Pats had matched the monetary value of the contract, as you had stated. Fair enough. I didn't remeber that portion of it.

If, in fact, the Patriots had offered the same monies to CM, and he still bolted, then your case of "traitorism" may hold some water. Without that, your case is still somewhat lacking.

But I know you know that already.

Don't want to wait for a Pat Fan to Clarify Scotty?? I'm pretty sure they Matched but if a Pat fan don't have the answer I'll go search! What is a fact is that contract that was offered to Martin is no longer allowed to be used!

[raffyD]

So . . . um, Belicheck gets respect because he won some big games, right?

Cool, because I got lost in here for a while.

[Savage69]

So . . . um, Belicheck gets respect because he won some big games, right?

Cool, because I got lost in here for a while.

And if Martin preformed in Big Games he'd get respect also! Understand now?

[PatsFanTX]

Don't want to wait for a Pat Fan to Clarify Scotty?? I'm pretty sure they Matched but if a Pat fan don't have the answer I'll go search! What is a fact is that contract that was offered to Martin is no longer allowed to be used!

Kraft won't match Jets' offer to running back

By Ed Duckworth, New England Sports Service

FOXBORO -- The first hint came last summer when Curtis Martin was asked how he felt about being the most grossly underpaid player in professional football.

"I'm not real happy about it," the New England Patriots' all-pro tailback said in a matter-of-fact tone, "but I'm hoping my agent will be able to do something to rectify the situation between now and Labor Day."

"But what will you do if Gus Sunseri can't convince owner Bob Kraft that he should renegotiate?" Martin was asked.

"I'll have to try to not let it bother me," replied Martin in a voice that sounded a bit more steely. "I've got a contract that I intend to honor."

As everybody knows, Kraft did not tear up the $247,000 deal Martin had agreed to accept in his third pro season when he joined the Pats as a rookie in 1995.

In retrospect, that may have been the beginning of the end of their warm and fuzzy relationship.

The end of the beginning came last month when Martin replaced Sunseri with Eugene Parker, who let his fingers do the dialing to Bill Parcells of the New York Jets.

The final act of the football soap opera came yesterday in Orlando, Fla., where Kraft announced the Pats would not attempt to match a six-year, $36-million offer the Jets made to Martin last week.

Instead, Kraft said the Pats had decided to accept the Jets' first- and third-round picks as compensation for the restricted free agent.

"We had an emotional attachment to Curtis," Patriots' owner Robert Kraft said of Martin, who has gained more than 1,000 yards in each of his first three years in the league. "But we're going to take the draft picks and let him move on."

The decision means New England will have six of the first 82 selections in next month's college draft since the Jets already owe them a second-round pick for signing Parcells as their coach last winter.

"We had an emotional attachment to Curtis," Kraft said, "but we're going to take the picks and move on. The draft is very deep this year and to get these (additional) picks from a divisional rival is even more important."

There is no doubt the sudden and surprisingly acrimonious departure of Martin, who declined an offer to discuss his feelings about leaving the Pats with coach Pete Carroll the other day, leaves a gaping hole in New England's backfield.

Kraft and Carroll may be able to fill Martin's spot on the roster with a proven free-agent veteran like Chris Warren, Terry Kirby or Gary Brown, but the Pats' running attack simply won't be as good as it was.

Martin was the real deal.

Even though he sat out the Pats' final three regular-season games with a bruised shoulder and abdominal strain, Martin finished '97 with his third straight 1,000-yard rushing total.

Only Barry Sanders of Detroit, Terrell Davis of Denver and retired greats Tony Dorsett, Eric Dickerson, John Brockington and Ottis Anderson have accomplished as much as quickly as the 5-foot-11, 205-pound former Pitt star.

Martin, who won't turn 25 until May 1, rushed for 1,152, 1,487 and 1,160 yards with the Pats. Although he lacks the speedy of Dickerson or the power of Smith, he combines great acceleration with tremendous elusiveness and determination.

In addition to carrying the ball from scrimmage, Martin came to be regarded as a capable "safety valve" receiver. He caught 117 passes for 890 yards in his three seasons.

Still, perhaps his best asset was his nose for the goal line. Martin scored 33 touchdowns during his tenure with the Pats, a three-season team record.

But he wasn't the sort of "workhorse" back under Pete Carroll that he had been when Parcells directed the Pats, so that may have played a role in his decision to jump ship.

Although he never publicly complained about his role in the offense being reduced, Martin did at one point last fall indicate his dissatisfaction.

"I feel like I can do more," he said after reaching the 1,000-yard plateau. "Like every other running back, I'd like to be more involved."

Carroll apparently didn't share Martin's enthusiasm for the running attack because only once after Columbus Day did the scatback get 25 carries or gain 100 yards in a game.

Meanwhile, in New York, Parcells was gradually turning from fan to critic of the Jets' featured runner, Adrian Murrell, whom he now presumably will trade or release.

Parcells said yesterday he is thrilled the Pats have elected to abandon Martin, whom he believes will recover completely from his recent stomach surgery.

"Curtis is taking part in an exercise program, not a rehabilitation program," Parcells said. "We expect him to work diligently and be ready to join us in training camp."

Parcells added that while he had been reluctant to part with the Jets' first- and third-round draft choices for Martin, he believes the tailback represents good value for New York.

"When we looked at the draft, our feeling was we don't think we could have got a better player than Curtis," the former Pats' coach said. "We know the price we paid is high, but we think we got good value."

Now, the pressure will be on player personnel director Bobby Grier and the Pats' scouts to replace Martin

The expectation is they will move quickly to sign a veteran free agent like Warren, Kirby or Brown and, in addition, expend at least one high draft choice on a rookie running back.

They aren't likely to get as lucky as they did in '95, however, when they selected Martin in the third round of the draft.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/03-98/03-26-98/d06sp273.htm

[AVM]

and theres tx with the knockout punch! lol

for what its worth though..i suppose i am a great fan of martin, a "martinette" if you wish---but Curtis is not as athletic and talented as Bo Jackson, its not even close. I suppose the arguement could be made that Terrell Davis had that great denver o-line and John Elway to work with...so he might not have actually been THAT good....but still, the jets had a pretty good o-line and vinny-t was far from the worst qb in the league in his prime, and curt's #'s were never anywhere near Davis'. I'd say davis was more talented also, b/c of that.

[Savage69]

Kraft won't match Jets' offer to running back

By Ed Duckworth, New England Sports Service

FOXBORO -- The first hint came last summer when Curtis Martin was asked how he felt about being the most grossly underpaid player in professional football.

"I'm not real happy about it," the New England Patriots' all-pro tailback said in a matter-of-fact tone, "but I'm hoping my agent will be able to do something to rectify the situation between now and Labor Day."

"But what will you do if Gus Sunseri can't convince owner Bob Kraft that he should renegotiate?" Martin was asked.

"I'll have to try to not let it bother me," replied Martin in a voice that sounded a bit more steely. "I've got a contract that I intend to honor."

As everybody knows, Kraft did not tear up the $247,000 deal Martin had agreed to accept in his third pro season when he joined the Pats as a rookie in 1995.

In retrospect, that may have been the beginning of the end of their warm and fuzzy relationship.

The end of the beginning came last month when Martin replaced Sunseri with Eugene Parker, who let his fingers do the dialing to Bill Parcells of the New York Jets.

The final act of the football soap opera came yesterday in Orlando, Fla., where Kraft announced the Pats would not attempt to match a six-year, $36-million offer the Jets made to Martin last week.

Instead, Kraft said the Pats had decided to accept the Jets' first- and third-round picks as compensation for the restricted free agent.

"We had an emotional attachment to Curtis," Patriots' owner Robert Kraft said of Martin, who has gained more than 1,000 yards in each of his first three years in the league. "But we're going to take the draft picks and let him move on."

The decision means New England will have six of the first 82 selections in next month's college draft since the Jets already owe them a second-round pick for signing Parcells as their coach last winter.

"We had an emotional attachment to Curtis," Kraft said, "but we're going to take the picks and move on. The draft is very deep this year and to get these (additional) picks from a divisional rival is even more important."

There is no doubt the sudden and surprisingly acrimonious departure of Martin, who declined an offer to discuss his feelings about leaving the Pats with coach Pete Carroll the other day, leaves a gaping hole in New England's backfield.

Kraft and Carroll may be able to fill Martin's spot on the roster with a proven free-agent veteran like Chris Warren, Terry Kirby or Gary Brown, but the Pats' running attack simply won't be as good as it was.

Martin was the real deal.

Even though he sat out the Pats' final three regular-season games with a bruised shoulder and abdominal strain, Martin finished '97 with his third straight 1,000-yard rushing total.

Only Barry Sanders of Detroit, Terrell Davis of Denver and retired greats Tony Dorsett, Eric Dickerson, John Brockington and Ottis Anderson have accomplished as much as quickly as the 5-foot-11, 205-pound former Pitt star.

Martin, who won't turn 25 until May 1, rushed for 1,152, 1,487 and 1,160 yards with the Pats. Although he lacks the speedy of Dickerson or the power of Smith, he combines great acceleration with tremendous elusiveness and determination.

In addition to carrying the ball from scrimmage, Martin came to be regarded as a capable "safety valve" receiver. He caught 117 passes for 890 yards in his three seasons.

Still, perhaps his best asset was his nose for the goal line. Martin scored 33 touchdowns during his tenure with the Pats, a three-season team record.

But he wasn't the sort of "workhorse" back under Pete Carroll that he had been when Parcells directed the Pats, so that may have played a role in his decision to jump ship.

Although he never publicly complained about his role in the offense being reduced, Martin did at one point last fall indicate his dissatisfaction.

"I feel like I can do more," he said after reaching the 1,000-yard plateau. "Like every other running back, I'd like to be more involved."

Carroll apparently didn't share Martin's enthusiasm for the running attack because only once after Columbus Day did the scatback get 25 carries or gain 100 yards in a game.

Meanwhile, in New York, Parcells was gradually turning from fan to critic of the Jets' featured runner, Adrian Murrell, whom he now presumably will trade or release.

Parcells said yesterday he is thrilled the Pats have elected to abandon Martin, whom he believes will recover completely from his recent stomach surgery.

"Curtis is taking part in an exercise program, not a rehabilitation program," Parcells said. "We expect him to work diligently and be ready to join us in training camp."

Parcells added that while he had been reluctant to part with the Jets' first- and third-round draft choices for Martin, he believes the tailback represents good value for New York.

"When we looked at the draft, our feeling was we don't think we could have got a better player than Curtis," the former Pats' coach said. "We know the price we paid is high, but we think we got good value."

Now, the pressure will be on player personnel director Bobby Grier and the Pats' scouts to replace Martin

The expectation is they will move quickly to sign a veteran free agent like Warren, Kirby or Brown and, in addition, expend at least one high draft choice on a rookie running back.

They aren't likely to get as lucky as they did in '95, however, when they selected Martin in the third round of the draft.

http://www.s-t.com/daily/03-98/03-26-98/d06sp273.htm

They didn't match because they knew he wanted out! Bottom line it was about Money and it is true the Contract that the Jets offered is no longer Legal! Do you think it was a great Deal for the Jets giving up a 1st and 3rd pick for a RB coming off surgery? Not to mention a Huge Contract that kills our Cap to this day? In Hindsight the Pats went on and have won 3 Bowls since Martin left..What has Martin done for the Jets that another good Back couldn't have done? 14 yds in a Championship Game perhaps?

[Savage69]

and theres tx with the knockout punch! lol

for what its worth though..i suppose i am a great fan of martin, a "martinette" if you wish---but Curtis is not as athletic and talented as Bo Jackson, its not even close. I suppose the arguement could be made that Terrell Davis had that great denver o-line and John Elway to work with...so he might not have actually been THAT good....but still, the jets had a pretty good o-line and vinny-t was far from the worst qb in the league in his prime, and curt's #'s were never anywhere near Davis'. I'd say davis was more talented also, b/c of that.

Hey I said I wasn't sure..But for a Martinette you have your Head screwed on right! Talent wise Bo and Terrell were Amazing!

[PatsFanTX]

Hey I said I wasn't sure.

And I wasn't sure myself how the whole situation unfolded.

[Scott Dierking]

But don't say Martin leaving the Team that gave him all the Opportunity in the World for the same Money that the Jets offered was showing Loyalty!

Sav, you sounded pretty sure when you made this statement.

All Good. Just keeping you honest

[Scott Dierking]

And I wasn't sure myself how the whole situation unfolded.

The way I remebered it was that The Pats had to go to the NFL council and have them interpret some of the language and whether it was in the bounds of the CBA.

The Council said that it was and the Patriots declined to match. I can't recall them ever saying that they would agree to the same monies, just looking at th elanguage.

My memory is foggy as I get older though

[Savage69]

Sav, you sounded pretty sure when you made this statement.

All Good. Just keeping you honest

That's a laugh Scotty! I said wait for a Pat Fan and Tex clarified it! And even Tex wasn't sure! I probley read a writers take on what happened! So your take is Martin would have stayed with the Pats if the money was the same? Maybe but I still think he wanted to be with Daddy Tuna!

[AVM]

well i didn't know about any of it--i was just becoming a real fan at the time, seeing as i was pretty young...and all i knew about was the games. Not that easy being a jets fan as a kid in north carolina! haha

but yeah...Martin apparently wasn't COMPLETELY loyal to the pats, but i have to agree with SD that its not quite the same as bellichek(who i also have to read about now). Both BB and CM were probably a little in the wrong with how things go(bellichek talking with another team while under contract, and martin with the "poison pill contract") so i suppose both SD AND Sav are sorta right here:p

[PatsFanTX]

The way I remebered it was that The Pats had to go to the NFL council and have them interpret some of the language and whether it was in the bounds of the CBA.

The Council said that it was and the Patriots declined to match. I can't recall them ever saying that they would agree to the same monies, just looking at th elanguage.

My memory is foggy as I get older though

Savage, didn't the Council have to rule on if the compensatory picks were legal?

Martin was a "restricted" FA at the time.

[Scott Dierking]

That's a laugh Scotty! I said wait for a Pat Fan and Tex clarified it! And even Tex wasn't sure! I probley read a writers take on what happened! So your take is Martin would have stayed with the Pats if the money was the same? Maybe but I still think he wanted to be with Daddy Tuna!

Odd Sav, you only said to wait for a Pat fan to clarify your statement AFTER I questioned you on it.

Are you in the habit of performing fact checking ONLY after someone questions what you write, and then have someone verify what you have stated to redeem your self? Convenient.