Brady last year in NE rumors continue

[Villain The Foe]

4 hours ago, Ohio State NY Jets fan said:

seemingly never, but under table money may help explain that and it seems like he is looking for validation recently, being the highest paid QB in the game would sure help that fragile ego. pathetic I know but possible since I agree the plan now is to retire, but at that moment when it's over, he gets that phone call "Hi Tom, it's Jerry Jones and I want to make you the highest paid QB in history" "come play for America's team" "Zeke, Cooper and great OL more offensive talent than BB ever provided, let's show the world who made who"

This is pretty darn hyperbolic. 

Needing validation by being the highest paid player makes no sense when you just said that he could have been paid under the table, possibly making him the highest paid player with a great portion of that money being tax free. What validation would this public salary establish him outside of taxes? 

I also dont understand this fragile ego. You mean the fact that he never won a championship without Belichick? I doubt that's the problem given that when Brady was injured for the entire 2008 season, Belichick couldnt even make the playoffs, since returning from injury the Pats have made the playoffs every year, and have earned a 1st week bye in the playoffs every year this decade. Brady has played for 2 decades and has only missed the playoffs once in his career while on the field. 

Also, how well will this story go the moment Jerry agree's to a contract with Dak? Or is Jerry supposed to let Dak walk in order to get one last season out of a 40-something year old Brady after he left New England. 

Also, there is no greater Oline in the league in terms of how an Oline is coached than New England's. Dante Scarnecchia is probably the greatest Oline coach in NFL history. Tom Brady's entire GOAT career was behind a Scarnecchia coached offense. Now if Jerry lets Dak walk AND Scarnecchia suddently becomes the Oline coach there then I will definitely say that you're on to something. 

 

Brady doesnt need to show the world who made who. The only rings Belichick has outside of Tom Brady, Parcells got him. Belichick's 1st 6 years as a HC produced 1 winning season. Brady never played under another coach, but Belichick has certainly coached another team and other QB's and he's found no success outside of Brady. 

[#27TheDominator]

Turnover differential doesn't hurt his point.  It helps it.  It is driven by Brady having low turnovers

Points against is most important, and I would argue that with a team with a high scoring pass offense it is much more difficult to keep scoring down and impossible to keep yards against down.  It is remarkable that they keep it as low as they do.  Those teams are not like the Rex Ryan Jets that kept points down by limiting possessions and running the ball. 

Brady's 1st three super bowls came while the team was dominated by defense, but by 2004 (his third) they were an offensive powerhouse.  As they became more dominating, they didn't win another for decade despite the perfect season. 

[greenwichjetfan]

8 minutes ago, CTM said:

They have a ball control offense,  play outdoors in the northeast and have the luxury of facing 3 of the worst offenses in football 6 times a year. ( 38% of thier games). This is not a defensive juggernaut as the advanced stats clearly show but kudos for doing the work 

I've already conceded they were more defensive driven team early in the run.

My point was and still is that Brady is 'a guy who played with  teammates such as perennial pro-bowlers, top 2 WR and top 2 TE ever, perennial top 10 defenses, and coaching that always put the team in positions to succeed.' 

Conceding that they were more defensive driven early in the run does nothing for you when your entire point was to refute the perennial top 10 defense stat, and on top of that, your statement isn't even true.

Last year's playoffs Brady accounted for 1 TD against the Chargers in a game they scored 41 points. That's 4 rushing TDs for the Pats RBs while the defense held the Chargers 8th ranked offense to 7 points with a minute left to go in Q3.

In the AFCCG & SB, Brady managed 1 TD, 3 INTs, and a fumble against the #1 & #2 ranked offenses in the league, and still managed to win both games. 

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, Peace Frog said:

Please stop quoting me. 

I get you are a fan but this is creepy. 

You’ve been proven wrong time after time and I really wish you’d stop stalking me. 

Put me on Ignore and stop quoting me. 

I'm here to talk football, I don't care who I interact with.  It's not for your benefit, it's more for the benefit of those reading your inaccurate posts that I feel the need to correct you.

1 hour ago, Peace Frog said:

Montana also threw zero INTs in the SB. 

4-0 and 11 TDs - 0 INTs. 

The real SB in his era was the NFC championship game.  The AFC was dreadful and the NFC dominated.  SF outclassed every AFC team they faced in the SB.  Brady has done it in the parity era with average talent around him.  This man once made an AFC championship game with reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney  as his top weapons.  It doesn't matter who is around him, he always has his team in contention.

1 hour ago, CTM said:

By what metric? NE isnt a perennial top 10 defense by any metric that matters. They have been an offensive driven team since 2004. This is a fact and the facts do more to undermine Beli as as defensive mastermind than anything Brady 

 

Their average defensive ranking in BBs 19 seasons there is 17.2.

Defensive rankings can be misleading though.  In postseason:

2001 SB: became 1st D EVER to blow a double digit fourth quarter lead in a super bowl when they blew a 14 pt fourth quarter lead vs SL.

2003 SB: became second D EVER to blow a double digit fourth quarter lead in a super bowl when they blew an 11 point lead vs Car.

2006 AFC championship game: blew 21-3 lead to one of the greatest chokers in the history of the sport.  Brady led an O with no run game and Jabar Gaffney and reche Caldwell as his top weapons in the pass game to 27 points and they still couldn't win.

2007 SB: Brady struggled but with minutes left led an 80 yard drive to give them a 4 point lead.  D allows Eli Manning to lead GW drive.

2009 WC: D allows 33 to Flacco and Baltimore in WC loss at home.

2010 div: allows Mark Sanchez led O to score 28 points in div Rd loss at home 

2011 SB: once again they allow a mediocre QB like Eli Manning to win the game in the final minute.

2012 AFC championship: allow 28 at home in loss

2014 SB: after Brady leads O to 14 4th qtr points to take 4 point lead they allow Seattle to get 1st and G in a few plays.  They get lucky they get the TO.

2017 SB: offense scores record about of points for SB loser but D allows Nick Foles led O to put up 41 points on them.

There are many more examples with his other teams either as DC or HC including blowing a 10 point lead for us in the 98 title game.

His D has been good in certain games but the dynasty has always been about Brady.

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

This is pretty darn hyperbolic. 

Needing validation by being the highest paid player makes no sense when you just said that he could have been paid under the table, possibly making him the highest paid player with a great portion of that money being tax free. What validation would this public salary establish him outside of taxes? 

I also dont understand this fragile ego. You mean the fact that he never won a championship without Belichick? I doubt that's the problem given that when Brady was injured for the entire 2008 season, Belichick couldnt even make the playoffs, since returning from injury the Pats have made the playoffs every year, and have earned a 1st week bye in the playoffs every year this decade. Brady has played for 2 decades and has only missed the playoffs once in his career while on the field. 

Also, how well will this story go the moment Jerry agree's to a contract with Dak? Or is Jerry supposed to let Dak walk in order to get one last season out of a 40-something year old Brady after he left New England. 

Also, there is no greater Oline in the league in terms of how an Oline is coached than New England's. Dante Scarnecchia is probably the greatest Oline coach in NFL history. Tom Brady's entire GOAT career was behind a Scarnecchia coached offense. Now if Jerry lets Dak walk AND Scarnecchia suddently becomes the Oline coach there then I will definitely say that you're on to something. 

 

Brady doesnt need to show the world who made who. The only rings Belichick has outside of Tom Brady, Parcells got him. Belichick's 1st 6 years as a HC produced 1 winning season. Brady never played under another coach, but Belichick has certainly coached another team and other QB's and he's found no success outside of Brady.  

Parcells got him?  That fat **** has NEVER won a single playoff game without Belichick on his staff.  Not one.  They didn't make the playoffs when Brady was hurt?  Matt ******* Cassel started and they went 11-5.  Bill Parcells has literally NEVER had a season that good without Belichick on staff.  Quit quoting nyjunc.  It's not helping.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, greenwichjetfan said:

My point was and still is that Brady is 'a guy who played with  teammates such as perennial pro-bowlers, top 2 WR and top 2 TE ever, perennial top 10 defenses, and coaching that always put the team in positions to succeed.' 

Conceding that they were more defensive driven early in the run does nothing for you when your entire point was to refute the perennial top 10 defense stat, and on top of that, your statement isn't even true.

Last year's playoffs Brady accounted for 1 TD against the Chargers in a game they scored 41 points. That's 4 rushing TDs for the Pats RBs while the defense held the Chargers 8th ranked offense to 7 points with a minute left to go in Q3.

In the AFCCG & SB, Brady managed 1 TD, 3 INTs, and a fumble against the #1 & #2 ranked offenses in the league, and still managed to win both games. 

How did they get into scoring position for those rushing TDs? I guess his 34 completions and 343 yards didn't help at all?

In the AFC championship game he added 30 completions for 348 yards, again I'm sure this has nothing to do with setting up TDs.  

Are we seriously complaining about him leading his O to 41 and 37 points in playoff games?

As far as talent, Gronk is one of the best TEs ever but he was always hurt and he's won 4 SBs without Gronk playing.

Moss was at the end of his career, he had been struggling then set records with Brady and he only really had Moss for 2 seasons.

Most of his career he's had average talent around him.

[greenwichjetfan]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Turnover differential doesn't hurt his point.  It helps it.  It is driven by Brady having low turnovers

Points against is most important, and I would argue that with a team with a high scoring pass offense it is much more difficult to keep scoring down and impossible to keep yards against down.  It is remarkable that they keep it as low as they do.  Those teams are not like the Rex Ryan Jets that kept points down by limiting possessions and running the ball.

Turnover differential is driven by Brady having low turnovers, but is also helped by coaches putting an emphasis on the defense to look for sacks and turnovers knowing that the opposing offense will be pressured to score points to keep up. Either way, to have such a great turnover differential on top of always having great Points Against is definitely a feather in Belichick's cap.

[nyjunc]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Parcells got him?  That fat **** has NEVER won a single playoff game without Belichick on his staff.  Not one.  They didn't make the playoffs when Brady was hurt?  Matt ******* Cassel started and they went 11-5.  Bill Parcells has literally NEVER had a season that good without Belichick on staff.  Quit quoting nyjunc.  It's not helping.

Parcells took over the worst franchises in the sport and got them all to the playoffs. He made SBs with Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler and Drew Bledsoe.  He also made the playoffs with Quincy Carter.  BB has made ONE postseason app with a QB other than the greatest to ever do it.

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

I'm tagging out, @nyjunc has far more stamina for this debate than I do. 

 

I cannot be on as often as my younger days but I pop in when I can.

 

 

I am not arguing BB isn't a great coach, I am arguing Brady is the biggest reason for the dynasty.  All you have to do is look at where the franchise was when he took over and he's the one constant player throughout all of this ridiculous success while BB had little success without him and the BB coaching tree has also had little success without him.

[Villain The Foe]

7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Parcells got him?  That fat **** has NEVER won a single playoff game without Belichick on his staff.  Not one. 

That's funny, since Parcells isnt part of Belichick's coaching tree, but the other way around. 

Quote

They didn't make the playoffs when Brady was hurt?  Matt ******* Cassel started and they went 11-5. 

Did that produce a playoff spot? Thought so. 

Quote

Bill Parcells has literally NEVER had a season that good without Belichick on staff. 

Belichick has never had a season as good as he's produced with Brady at QB. 

Quote

Quit quoting nyjunc.  It's not helping.

Sounds more like great minds thinking alike...not necessarily quoting. 

 

 

[Peace Frog]

10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I'm here to talk football, I don't care who I interact with.  It's not for your benefit, it's more for the benefit of those reading your inaccurate posts that I feel the need to correct you.

The real SB in his era was the NFC championship game.  The AFC was dreadful and the NFC dominated.  SF outclassed every AFC team they faced in the SB.  Brady has done it in the parity era with average talent around him.  This man once made an AFC championship game with reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney  as his top weapons.  It doesn't matter who is around him, he always has his team in contention.

Their average defensive ranking in BBs 19 seasons there is 17.2.

Defensive rankings can be misleading though.  In postseason:

2001 SB: became 1st D EVER to blow a double digit fourth quarter lead in a super bowl when they blew a 14 pt fourth quarter lead vs SL.

2003 SB: became second D EVER to blow a double digit fourth quarter lead in a super bowl when they blew an 11 point lead vs Car.

2006 AFC championship game: blew 21-3 lead to one of the greatest chokers in the history of the sport.  Brady led an O with no run game and Jabar Gaffney and reche Caldwell as his top weapons in the pass game to 27 points and they still couldn't win.

2007 SB: Brady struggled but with minutes left led an 80 yard drive to give them a 4 point lead.  D allows Eli Manning to lead GW drive.

2009 WC: D allows 33 to Flacco and Baltimore in WC loss at home.

2010 div: allows Mark Sanchez led O to score 28 points in div Rd loss at home 

2011 SB: once again they allow a mediocre QB like Eli Manning to win the game in the final minute.

2012 AFC championship: allow 28 at home in loss

2014 SB: after Brady leads O to 14 4th qtr points to take 4 point lead they allow Seattle to get 1st and G in a few plays.  They get lucky they get the TO.

2017 SB: offense scores record about of points for SB loser but D allows Nick Foles led O to put up 41 points on them.

There are many more examples with his other teams either as DC or HC including blowing a 10 point lead for us in the 98 title game.

His D has been good in certain games but the dynasty has always been about Brady.

I get you’re a fan but please stop stalking me. 

It’s creepy. 

You’re being educated enough by everyone else here. 

Stop quoting me. You’re fandom is bordering on disturbing. 

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Parcells took over the worst franchises in the sport and got them all to the playoffs. He made SBs with Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler and Drew Bledsoe.  He also made the playoffs with Quincy Carter.  BB has made ONE postseason app with a QB other than the greatest to ever do it.

There are some that push Phil Simms for the HOF.  Is it Belichick's fault that fat **** consistently wanted a QB controversy so that he could be BMOC?  **** him. He is fat douche and literally never won anything without Gilligan.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, Villain The Foe said:

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Sounds more like great minds thinking alike...not necessarily quoting. 

 

Nothing more need be said.

 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

Nothing more need be said.

 

Well, since there was nothing more to be said...I agree. 

[CTM]

23 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Conceding that they were more defensive driven early in the run does nothing for you when your entire point was to refute the perennial top 10 defense stat, and on top of that, your statement isn't even true.

But it is true, official NFL rankings are ypg. Any deviation from that has to be argued on merit. I argue for the advanced stat, which supports the NFL rankings. You are arguing for ppg which my position is that is overly influenced by how efficient Bradys offense has been, the fact that Miami, Buffalo and NYJ have been bad overall teams but even worse offensive teams for the past decade.

[greenwichjetfan]

14 minutes ago, CTM said:

But it is true, official NFL rankings are ypg. Any deviation from that has to be argued on merit. I argue for the advanced stat, which supports the NFL rankings. You are arguing for ppg which my position is that is overly influenced by how efficient Bradys offense has been, the fact that Miami, Buffalo and NYJ have been bad overall teams but even worse offensive teams for the past decade.

 

2 hours ago, CTM said:

By what metric? NE isnt a perennial top 10 defense by any metric that matters. 

First it was any metric that mattered, now it’s YPG or advanced metrics that matter because only PPG is influenced by Brady’s efficiency?

Not to get all Mangini, but football is complimentary. It’s the ultimate team sport. Both PPG & YPG are influenced by both sides of the ball. PPG is a better metric to look at when rating how well a defense plays because, we’ll, the game is decided by points, not yards.

Either way, it’s a metric that matters, and by it, Brady has enjoyed 15 of 18 years of top 10 defenses. 

[CTM]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling. Turnover differential now doesn't matter because it undermines your point? Ok fine. How about Points Against - do they matter for ranking defenses? If so, here you go taken directly from pro football reference. Not doctored or cherry picked. The average defensive rank for points against in the Brady era for the Pats is 7.5 (7.47 if removing the Cassell year). Only 3 out of 18 were not top 10, and one of those was still top half of the league. The years they've won the super bowl (highlighted in yellow) are all top 10, including two #1s and one #2.

I look forward to your thoughts on how over the top incorrect "perennial top 10 defenses" is now.

 

I looked it up, not going back further but it's safe to assume its similiar. In the last 5 years NE's defense has had the luxury of having the best starting drive position in the league 4 times and they were #2 the fifth

Brady converts first downs and doesnt turn the ball over. Opposing offenses are consistantly faced with a long field which is how Brady supports the defense and not the other way around.

 

[nyjunc]

22 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

There are some that push Phil Simms for the HOF.  Is it Belichick's fault that fat **** consistently wanted a QB controversy so that he could be BMOC?  **** him. He is fat douche and literally never won anything without Gilligan.

Huh? He wanted a QB controversy?  When did he ever have QB controversies?

He won a SB with a backup QB no thanks to BBs D which allowed Buffalo to score 17 points in 19 minutes of possession.  If Buffalo gets 30 more seconds of TOP they win that game.

[CTM]

11 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Not to get all Mangini, but football is complimentary. It’s the ultimate team sport. Both PPG & YPG are influenced by both sides of the ball. PPG is a better metric to look at when rating how well a defense plays because, we’ll, the game is decided by points, not yards.

Either way, it’s a metric that matters, and by it, Brady has enjoyed 15 of 18 years of top 10 defenses. 

Its also a metric that is highly influenced by and not controlled for avg field position, offensive avg drive length,  turnovers and level of opposition. DVOA is

Brady is NE's best defensive player 

[TNJet]

5 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Correct.  Sounds like he did a pretty good job rebuilding the roster.

Fck Belichick in every hole he has. Go muthafckin Jets.

[greenwichjetfan]

4 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I think that when football people look back at Brady, much like the other 3 QBs above, they’ll see a guy who played with  teammates such as perennial pro-bowlers, top 2 WR and top 2 TE ever, perennial top 10 defenses, and coaching that always put the team in positions to succeed.

3 hours ago, CTM said:

By what metric? NE isnt a perennial top 10 defense by any metric that matters. They have been an offensive driven team since 2004. This is a fact and the facts do more to undermine Beli as as defensive mastermind than anything Brady

3 hours ago, CTM said:

The only one being deliberately  disingenuous (or undeliberately ignorant) is the one who said NE was a perennial top 10 defense.

2 hours ago, CTM said:

I cherry picked those 4 words because they were so over the top incorrect it had to be addressed. I've yet to see a compelling argument otherwise.

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling. Turnover differential now doesn't matter because it undermines your point? Ok fine. How about Points Against - do they matter for ranking defenses? If so, here you go taken directly from pro football reference. Not doctored or cherry picked. The average defensive rank for points against in the Brady era for the Pats is 7.5 (7.47 if removing the Cassell year). Only 3 out of 18 were not top 10, and one of those was still top half of the league. The years they've won the super bowl (highlighted in yellow) are all top 10, including two #1s and one #2.

I look forward to your thoughts on how over the top incorrect "perennial top 10 defenses" is now.

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

My point was and still is that Brady is 'a guy who played with  teammates such as perennial pro-bowlers, top 2 WR and top 2 TE ever, perennial top 10 defenses, and coaching that always put the team in positions to succeed.' 

Conceding that they were more defensive driven early in the run does nothing for you when your entire point was to refute the perennial top 10 defense stat, and on top of that, your statement isn't even true.

Last year's playoffs Brady accounted for 1 TD against the Chargers in a game they scored 41 points. That's 4 rushing TDs for the Pats RBs while the defense held the Chargers 8th ranked offense to 7 points with a minute left to go in Q3.

In the AFCCG & SB, Brady managed 1 TD, 3 INTs, and a fumble against the #1 & #2 ranked offenses in the league, and still managed to win both games. 

58 minutes ago, CTM said:

But it is true, official NFL rankings are ypg. Any deviation from that has to be argued on merit. I argue for the advanced stat, which supports the NFL rankings. You are arguing for ppg which my position is that is overly influenced by how efficient Bradys offense has been, the fact that Miami, Buffalo and NYJ have been bad overall teams but even worse offensive teams for the past decade.

42 minutes ago, CTM said:

 

I looked it up, not going back further but it's safe to assume its similiar. In the last 5 years NE's defense has had the luxury of having the best starting drive position in the league 4 times and they were #2 the fifth

Brady converts first downs and doesnt turn the ball over. Opposing offenses are consistantly faced with a long field which is how Brady supports the defense and not the other way around.

 

40 minutes ago, CTM said:

Its also a metric that is highly influenced by and not controlled for avg field position, offensive avg drive length,  turnovers and level of opposition. DVOA is

Brady is NE's best defensive player 

Dude. Just admit you picked a bad fight and move on.

Of my 1000 word post, you cherry picked 4 words to argue to support your viewpoint (still haven't even touched any of the other stuff I mentioned), said those 4 words were "over the top wrong" by "any metric that matters" and that you have "yet to see compelling argument otherwise."

Like I said right before I presented my backup: "It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling."

I've made my points, backed them up, and stand by them. I've called Brady great while also calling Belichick great. Your problem is that I'm attributing more of the success of the franchise to the guy who is in charge of all personnel and coaching for 53 players over the last 18 years, rather than one guy who only plays one position. If you think Brady deserves more credit, ok. But I'm not going to argue with someone who is so over the top effusive of Brady that he's willing to dismiss Points Against as a measure for defense, or willing to discount anything and everything that Belichick and the other 52 players have done each season, because that person seems biased to me.

"Brady is NE's best defensive player".

What?

Yea, I'm done.

[Peace Frog]

3 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Dude. Just admit you picked a bad fight and move on.

Of my 1000 word post, you cherry picked 4 words to argue to support your viewpoint (still haven't even touched any of the other stuff I mentioned), said those 4 words were "over the top wrong" by "any metric that matters" and that you have "yet to see compelling argument otherwise."

Like I said right before I presented my backup: "It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling."

I've made my points, backed them up, and stand by them. I've called Brady great while also calling Belichick great. Your problem is that I'm attributing more of the success of the franchise to the guy who is in charge of all personnel and coaching for 53 players over the last 18 years, rather than one guy who only plays one position. If you think Brady deserves more credit, ok. But I'm not going to argue with someone who is so over the top effusive of Brady that he's going to discount anything and everything that Belichick and the other 52 players each season have done, because that person seems biased to me.

"Brady is NE's best defensive player".

What?

Yea, I'm done.

Again, well done Sir. 

It’s funny when these dudes need to go back decades to Belli’s head coaching infancy at Cleveland to make an imagined point real. 

Stop. 

Brady, great QB. 

Belli made him. 

[nyjunc]

19 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Dude. Just admit you picked a bad fight and move on.

Of my 1000 word post, you cherry picked 4 words to argue to support your viewpoint (still haven't even touched any of the other stuff I mentioned), said those 4 words were "over the top wrong" by "any metric that matters" and that you have "yet to see compelling argument otherwise."

Like I said right before I presented my backup: "It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling."

I've made my points, backed them up, and stand by them. I've called Brady great while also calling Belichick great. Your problem is that I'm attributing more of the success of the franchise to the guy who is in charge of all personnel and coaching for 53 players over the last 18 years, rather than one guy who only plays one position. If you think Brady deserves more credit, ok. But I'm not going to argue with someone who is so over the top effusive of Brady that he's willing to dismiss Points Against as a measure for defense, or willing to discount anything and everything that Belichick and the other 52 players have done each season, because that person seems biased to me.

"Brady is NE's best defensive player".

What?

Yea, I'm done.

The personnel moves have been easy with Brady because he wins with anyone.  They have had mostly average talent around him but he always win.

Both are great but we have seen BB without Brady and it's not good, we have never seen Brady without BB.

[nyjunc]

15 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

Again, well done Sir. 

It’s funny when these dudes need to go back decades to Belli’s head coaching infancy at Cleveland to make an imagined point real. 

Stop. 

Brady, great QB. 

Belli made him. 

Who are the other QBs the great BB has made?  

Bernie Kosar? Inherited him when he was just 28 coming off 3 title games in 5 years.  With the QB guru? 11-18

Drew Bledsoe? Drew was also just 28 when he inherited him. Drew was QB on a SB team and made multiple playoff apps with multiple div titles.  With the QB guru?  5-13.  And after going 5-11 with him as rookie 6th rounder Tom Brady watched from the sideline Drew Bledsoe was given a $100 mil extension.

Matt Cassell?  Won a division title with KC, inherited undefeated team and lost 5 games under BB with no playoffs.

Both are great but BB would be a DC today without Brady.

[CTM]

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Dude. Just admit you picked a bad fight and move on.

Of my 1000 word post, you cherry picked 4 words to argue to support your viewpoint (still haven't even touched any of the other stuff I mentioned), said those 4 words were "over the top wrong" by "any metric that matters" and that you have "yet to see compelling argument otherwise."

Like I said right before I presented my backup: "It's not going to be compelling for you if you don't want it to be compelling."

I've made my points, backed them up, and stand by them. I've called Brady great while also calling Belichick great. Your problem is that I'm attributing more of the success of the franchise to the guy who is in charge of all personnel and coaching for 53 players over the last 18 years, rather than one guy who only plays one position. If you think Brady deserves more credit, ok. But I'm not going to argue with someone who is so over the top effusive of Brady that he's going to discount anything and everything that Belichick and the other 52 players each season have done, because that person seems biased to me.

"Brady is NE's best defensive player".

What?

Yea, I'm done.

You are taking  "any metric that matters" too literally and incorrectly. I was talking about a metric that matters when trying isolate and grade defensive performance. I'm well aware that NE's defense fairs far better in PPG than they do YPG, which is why I was talking about efficiency metrics where they are decidedly below average.  You refuse to touch this point.

You also refuse to touch the point about why PPG is a limited measuring stick in this debate while at the same time giving me a lecture about NFL being a complimentary game. The core debate here is whether Brady's offense or Belichicks defense is the primary driving factor for NE"s success, since you seem to be aware that units compliment one another I wonder why you then ignore it by taking a myopic view on the statistics.

Here's some supporting facts for the past 5 seasons

1) NE's defense has had the best starting field position in the nfl 4 of 5 seasons, and were #2 the one season they weren't #1. I'm sure we can agree this has a negative impact on opponents ability to score, and has nothing to do with the defense, DVOA factors this in PPG does not

2) NE's offense has turned the ball over less than any team in the league 3 of the past 5 years, was #2 1 year and #7 the last year for 5 top 10 finishes. This again has nothing to do with the defense but has a negative impact on opponents ability to score. DVOA factors this in PPG does not

3) In the past 5 seasons the NYJ, MIA and BUFF have had bottom 10 offenses 9 of 15 times,  this represents almost 40% of NE's games. This essentially means in over 25% of the games being played during this period, NE defense was facing one of the worst offenses in the entire league. DVOA factors this in PPG does not.

4) In the past 5 seasons NE has been top 10 in plays per drive 4 times and top 10 in yards per drive 5 times. This again has nothing to do with the defense but has a negative impact on opponents ability to score. DVOA factors this in PPG does not

 

Given the above, my statement "Brady is their best defensive player" was clearly hyperbolic way of saying that Brady's offense consistently puts what is basically an average defense in favorable positions which does a whole heck of lot to suppress points against and ultimately win games.

 

[CTM]

16 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Who are the other QBs the great BB has made?  

Bernie Kosar? Inherited him when he was just 28 coming off 3 title games in 5 years.  With the QB guru? 11-18

Drew Bledsoe? Drew was also just 28 when he inherited him. Drew was QB on a SB team and made multiple playoff apps with multiple div titles.  With the QB guru?  5-13.  And after going 5-11 with him as rookie 6th rounder Tom Brady watched from the sideline Drew Bledsoe was given a $100 mil extension.

Matt Cassell?  Won a division title with KC, inherited undefeated team and lost 5 games under BB with no playoffs.

Both are great but BB would be a DC today without Brady.

I think his next coherent point will be his first.

[Hackenberg - Banned]

6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

 

Obviously.

One finished  in a conf championship.  The other in a SB.  I assumed he had the  ability  to  figure that out.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, Hackenberg said:

One finished  in a conf championship.  The other in a SB.  I assumed he had the  ability  to  figure that out.

Minnesota made it because of favre, favre was great his last full season.  If we had that version of him we would have won the SB in 2008.  Denver won that SB basically all on D.  

[Peace Frog]

43 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Who are the other QBs the great BB has made?  

Bernie Kosar? Inherited him when he was just 28 coming off 3 title games in 5 years.  With the QB guru? 11-18

Drew Bledsoe? Drew was also just 28 when he inherited him. Drew was QB on a SB team and made multiple playoff apps with multiple div titles.  With the QB guru?  5-13.  And after going 5-11 with him as rookie 6th rounder Tom Brady watched from the sideline Drew Bledsoe was given a $100 mil extension.

Matt Cassell?  Won a division title with KC, inherited undefeated team and lost 5 games under BB with no playoffs.

Both are great but BB would be a DC today without Brady.

This fandom of yours is getting out of hand.

I appreciate you as a fan but I'd prefer you keep your e-distance.

Stop quoting me and stalking me.  It's unwelcome.

 

[Hackenberg - Banned]

2 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

This fandom of yours is getting out of hand.

I appreciate you as a fan but I'd prefer you keep your e-distance.

Stop quoting me and stalking me.  It's unwelcome.

 

I don't  think I've ever typed "unwelcome" yet. 

[CTM]

25 minutes ago, Hackenberg said:

One finished  in a conf championship.  The other in a SB.  I assumed he had the  ability  to  figure that out.

Favre's last season Minnesota didn't make the playoffs, what are you talking about?

[nyjunc]

12 minutes ago, Peace Frog said:

This fandom of yours is getting out of hand.

I appreciate you as a fan but I'd prefer you keep your e-distance.

Stop quoting me and stalking me.  It's unwelcome.

 

I'm trying to help you.

[Peace Frog]

8 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I'm trying to help you.

It’s creepy. 

And believe me, don’t need help and certainly from your type. 

Try being a doting fan from afar. 

[Peace Frog]

19 minutes ago, Hackenberg said:

I don't  think I've ever typed "unwelcome" yet. 

But you don’t know that for sure. 

[Peace Frog]

1 hour ago, CTM said:

I think his next coherent point will be his first.

This is truly hurtful. 

You don't think Romo is right about Skechers?

Listen, you can slobber all over Brady’s ballsack all you want, I hate him AND his coach Belli. 

But reaching back to his formative stages as a failed coach and trying to use that to discount what he’s done for nearly 2 decades is incredibly weak. ‘Oh, yeah, Belli didn’t win any playoff games with Cleveland’ has nothing to do with what we’re discussing. 

Besides, this is all opinion and there are NO objective metrics to prove who made whom, just supposition and conjecture. 

You look through your prism and see it’s ALL Brady and no Belli  

In my eyes it’s ALL Belli and some Brady. 

One thing you and all the Brady gobblers will discount is the massive, systematic and clearly proven cheating scheme Belli has pulled off for ever. THAT’S part of his greatness and one of the ways he made Brady. 

All Brady could do is deflate footballs and hop himself up on HGH, Steroids and whatever other illicit PED his drug dealer concocted for him. That’s all on Brady.