Not There Yet

[Swampfox]

19 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I agree that Sauce has been fortunate at the way the refs have treated him this year.  In other years, he probably gets several more PI calls against him.  (And I'd be surprised if he got those breaks against JJ tomorrow.)

It's not really fair to compare Sauce to Revis in his prime though because Sauce is a rookie.  If you compared their rookie years, Sauce would be the winner.

Can I take a guess at your fandom, btw?  Eagles?

 

[Swampfox]

1 minute ago, Swampfox said:

 

Eagles ?  Phins ?   Bite your tongue. Jets since 1965

[Swampfox]

15 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

I will play; how about this…

As of today, Sauce is the highest rated CB in the NFL!

 Pro Football Focus has Gardner ranked as the No. 1 graded cornerback in the NFL for coverage through Week 12

I will be waiting for your authoritative rebuttal…

Let’s Go!!!!

I AGREE with your comment. That wasn't my point or even what I was talking about.   Repeat: Not elite YET. Doesn't look for the ball very often. Handsy ?  Hell yes      BTW, when you turn head, you can see if the QB is running instead of blindly following WR.  Those are my points, not if he is the best CB now.  English words mean things, be careful not to assume.  That is my "authoritative rebuttal".

 

[JohnnyLV]

6 hours ago, Swampfox said:

Drivel ?  Opinions and observations are drivel ?   Yes, he is a very good player but I was pointing out the steps he needs to take to get to elite level.

 

Is this a self portrait ? Not worried about rep or bad start. Just saying what I see on the field.

Well you could just say things Sauce can get even better at. But the reality is that by any objective measure Sauce is quite clearly an elite level player. He is already an All Pro level corner and quite arguably already the best corner in the NFL. At worst he is like 3rd. But you just said it again, steps he needs to get to elite level. He is already there so your entire premise and especially the way you wrote it is useless. Can he improve? All players can improve. But it is not hyperbole to say that Sauce is having one of the best rookie CB seasons ever. Maybe the best. Revis was not this good his rookie season. Deion wasn't. There might be someone I am forgetting.

He is the number 1 rated CB by PFF

He has the most PDs in the NFL

Completion perentage allowed 43.4 2nd in the NFL

15 yard completions allowed 5.7% 1st in the NFL

Forced incompletion rate 27% 1st in the NFL

Passer rating allowed 43.7% 1st in the NFL (worse than dirting the ball on every throw)

3:45 in the Cynthia Freuland video below if you want to verify

This is not a Jets fan seeing things through green colored Jets glasses.

Sauce is ELITE. Period. He is not very good. Even Reed is not "very good" He is elite too. So the entire concept of the post is drivel and trollish. And the scary thing is that he is definitely still improving.

 

[neckdemon]

11 hours ago, Swampfox said:

Sheesh. Guys, I was making an observation that most DB's (inc Sauce) rarely turn their heads, especially on longer passes. Some guy complained that I didn't know the % of " back shoulder " throws. How the hell is anybody supposed to know that over ( for Ex ) a 5 yr period? You said that. Really? Not only is Sauce handsy but sometimes he grabs jerseys and it just worries me he will get called at a crucial time. That's all. BTW, I DID know that he leads in passes defended but that doesn't change the fact that I wish him and our other DB's would turn heads.  Accusations and assumptions all over the place.  WOW !  To the idiot that claimed I was a phin fan, I was started watching Joe in 1965 and watched SB III live.  Probably before aforementioned idiot was born. I have been reading this forum for years and noticed quite a few dumb ass comments and it continues. Some of you guys are pretty smart and make great observations.   Thanks for making me feel welcome.   I have seen this treatment to other newbies before over the years.  Nice

well since faceguarding isn't a thing then it's really not a huge problem. regarding the "being handsy" thing. it seems like the refs allow a bit of  handfighting between the wrs and dbs. is PI inevitable going to be called sometimes? sure. but sauce seems to have a knack for not crossing the line with it. it feels like you are just looking for something to complain about here since for the entire season these "problems" haven't even been problmes at all. sauce has been GREAT!!! and with that said......as a rookie sauce is excelling (currently the favorite to win defensive rookie of the year) at a position that can be notoriously difficult to make the transition form college into the pros at. the game will slow down for him more and more and this "problem" you are so worried about (which really hasn't even been a problem) won't be a thing (not that it really is a thing now anyway)

[Swampfox]

The Following are guilty of incorrect comments, stupid captions, and or having trouble with reading comprehension.

The Crusher, Neckdemon, Barry McCormick, JoeW. Namath, JetNut, Tommy T, More Cowbell, JohnnySD, FTL JET Fan, Charlie Brown, PepPep, JetsPenguin, Hal N of Provo, Jetsfan80 and others.  No Bozo's, I am NOT a phin or eagle fan. Jets since 1965.

Jets V Vikings. Reed guilty of holding (he obviously grabbed the jersey).  Sauce flagged for holding (wrapped arm over shoulder of WR).  These are facts and they cost yardage and gave Minne first downs.  I felt that our DB's are too handsy, especially Sauce. It was an opinion and an observation.  Even the announcer mentioned that our DB (can't remember which of our DB's) wasn't looking for the ball. Go back and watch it.

See Eagles TD Sunday.  long pass that actually kinda landed on DB shoulder and got pinned between WR and DB. GUESS which way DB was facing ?  He was staring at WR face to face.  TD for Eagles.

Look at Mayfield winning passes with 98 yards to go last night.  The DB's were facing the WR instead of looking for the ball. Footballs wizzing by their heads. Turn, and knock ball down. Not rocket science.  DB 101. Obviously, you guys haven't played DB, I have.   

"worst thread" ?   " Drivel " ?    yeah right   Put down your beer and chips and actually watch the game.

I think Sauce could be a HOF. He is excellent CB but  "not there yet ".

Thank you to the few who either agreed with me or saw my point.  

 

 

 

[JohnnyLV]

6 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

The Following are guilty of incorrect comments, stupid captions, and or having trouble with reading comprehension.

The Crusher, Neckdemon, Barry McCormick, JoeW. Namath, JetNut, Tommy T, More Cowbell, JohnnySD, FTL JET Fan, Charlie Brown, PepPep, JetsPenguin, Hal N of Provo, Jetsfan80 and others.  No Bozo's, I am NOT a phin or eagle fan. Jets since 1965.

Jets V Vikings. Reed guilty of holding (he obviously grabbed the jersey).  Sauce flagged for holding (wrapped arm over shoulder of WR).  These are facts and they cost yardage and gave Minne first downs.  I felt that our DB's are too handsy, especially Sauce. It was an opinion and an observation.  Even the announcer mentioned that our DB (can't remember which of our DB's) wasn't looking for the ball. Go back and watch it.

See Eagles TD Sunday.  long pass that actually kinda landed on DB shoulder and got pinned between WR and DB. GUESS which way DB was facing ?  He was staring at WR face to face.  TD for Eagles.

Look at Mayfield winning passes with 98 yards to go last night.  The DB's were facing the WR instead of looking for the ball. Footballs wizzing by their heads. Turn, and knock ball down. Not rocket science.  DB 101. Obviously, you guys haven't played DB, I have.   

"worst thread" ?   " Drivel " ?    yeah right   Put down your beer and chips and actually watch the game.

I think Sauce could be a HOF. He is excellent CB but  "not there yet ".

Thank you to the few who either agreed with me or saw my point.  

 

 

 

Have to give you credit for doubling down on a stupid take. Any QB that is solidly in the argument for best CB in the NFL as I have already showed you is "THERE". Can he still improve on things? Sure. At least you are up to excellent from very good. People can have opinions and not see a player in the same light as others but when every single measurable trait and statistic invalidates your opinion you need to re-evaluate. Sauce is ELITE. Period. Objectively

[bonkertons]

Jefferson was their leading receiver with under 50 yards and a TD(which wasn't on Sauce).  Cousins held under 200 yards passing.  Sauce allowed what?  20 something yards total and 2 1st downs?  

 

Or are you stroking your shaft because of that one penalty?  

[Barry McCockinner]

18 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

The Following are guilty of incorrect comments, stupid captions, and or having trouble with reading comprehension.

The Crusher, Neckdemon, Barry McCormick, JoeW. Namath, JetNut, Tommy T, More Cowbell, JohnnySD, FTL JET Fan, Charlie Brown, PepPep, JetsPenguin, Hal N of Provo, Jetsfan80 and others.  No Bozo's, I am NOT a phin or eagle fan. Jets since 1965.

Jets V Vikings. Reed guilty of holding (he obviously grabbed the jersey).  Sauce flagged for holding (wrapped arm over shoulder of WR).  These are facts and they cost yardage and gave Minne first downs.  I felt that our DB's are too handsy, especially Sauce. It was an opinion and an observation.  Even the announcer mentioned that our DB (can't remember which of our DB's) wasn't looking for the ball. Go back and watch it.

See Eagles TD Sunday.  long pass that actually kinda landed on DB shoulder and got pinned between WR and DB. GUESS which way DB was facing ?  He was staring at WR face to face.  TD for Eagles.

Look at Mayfield winning passes with 98 yards to go last night.  The DB's were facing the WR instead of looking for the ball. Footballs wizzing by their heads. Turn, and knock ball down. Not rocket science.  DB 101. Obviously, you guys haven't played DB, I have.   

"worst thread" ?   " Drivel " ?    yeah right   Put down your beer and chips and actually watch the game.

I think Sauce could be a HOF. He is excellent CB but  "not there yet ".

Thank you to the few who either agreed with me or saw my point.  

 

 

 

Speaking of trouble with reading comprehension, could you direct us to all the comments that claimed Sauce would never again be called for a holding or DPI? 

Your op was stupid, but this may be even worse. I doubt I'm alone sitting on the edge of my seat awaiting your next big brain drop.

[FidelioJet]

Sauce is far better than Revis was his rookie year.

Sauce has played 12 games. 

Revis will be a first ballot HOFer...

 

[K_O_Brien]

If social media is any indication, Sauce has about half the fanbases in the League on strings. Seattle's in particular seem to be a bit unhinged because he's getting more plaudits than Woolen. 

They will be on tenderhooks again at the weekend, salivating for a potential big reception to Diggs. Jefferson left them down last week. 

[Swampfox]

First of all, Reed and Sauce each got a penalty. Second, I said he doesn't turn his head often enough and and is too handsy. Same for our other DB's. Sauce IS an excellent DB but could be HOF if he ( AND all our other DB's would turn and look for the ball and not be so handsy)  My ORIGINAL post was an opinion and an observation having played that position many years ago. We are still allowed opinions or I guess maybe not.

[Swampfox]

9 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Speaking of trouble with reading comprehension, could you direct us to all the comments that claimed Sauce would never again be called for a holding or DPI? 

Your op was stupid, but this may be even worse. I doubt I'm alone sitting on the edge of my seat awaiting your next big brain drop.

Speaking of brain drops.  You are telling me that DB's should NOT turn their heads and look for the ball.  Are you REALLY telling me that ! Even the announcer said that our DB wasn't looking for the ball. Obviously, you never played DB.  Did you see Mayfield play last night and the balls wizzing past DB's head?  Holy cow

 

[Swampfox]

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Sauce is far better than Revis was his rookie year.

Sauce has played 12 games. 

Revis will be a first ballot HOFer...

 

 

Yes, I agree.  So?  I NEVER said he wasn't as good as REVIS first year.  Let's wait and see. Sauce has a great start

[Swampfox]

23 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Have to give you credit for doubling down on a stupid take. Any QB that is solidly in the argument for best CB in the NFL as I have already showed you is "THERE". Can he still improve on things? Sure. At least you are up to excellent from very good. People can have opinions and not see a player in the same light as others but when every single measurable trait and statistic invalidates your opinion you need to re-evaluate. Sauce is ELITE. Period. Objectively

Stupid take ?    He may already be there. I don't think just yet.  You are arguing my point that I wish he would turn his head more. Really ? I also wish he wouldn't be so handsy. Reed too    You actually disagree that DB should NOT turn head and look for the ball? THAT was one of my two points.  Holy cow

[FidelioJet]

1 minute ago, Swampfox said:

 

Yes, I agree.  So?  I NEVER said he wasn't as good as REVIS first year.  Let's wait and see. Sauce has a great start

Not questioning you.

Just point out - there's plenty of time for Sauce to figure all of this out.  

He surely seems to have the athleticism to be able to turn his head and maintain speed and body control.

Then again we saw other first round guys like Dee Milner that just could never figure it out or just out right refused to do it.

I get the sense they don't want to mess with him right now - don't change anything.  This feels like an off-season kinda thing.

[Barry McCockinner]

8 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Speaking of brain drops.  You are telling me that DB's should NOT turn their heads and look for the ball.  Are you REALLY telling me that ! Even the announcer said that our DB wasn't looking for the ball. Obviously, you never played DB.  Did you see Mayfield play last night and the balls wizzing past DB's head?  Holy cow

 

after you find the posts where people said Sauce would never again get called for holding or DPI please find the one where I said DB's should not turn their heads and look for the ball.

[Barry McCockinner]

[Swampfox]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Not questioning you.

Just point out - there's plenty of time for Sauce to figure all of this out.  

He surely seems to have the athleticism to be able to turn his head and maintain speed and body control.

Then again we saw other first round guys like Dee Milner that just could never figure it out or just out right refused to do it.

I get the sense they don't want to mess with him right now - don't change anything.  This feels like an off-season kinda thing.

LOL  A lot of guys are questioning that my comment that DB's don't turn their heads often enough. Including Sauce.  BTW, I agree with your points.

[Swampfox]

3 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

OMG   That caption proved your point !  Oh no.   All it proved is that you never played DB

[the Claw]

18 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

First of all, Reed and Sauce each got a penalty. Second, I said he doesn't turn his head often enough and and is too handsy. Same for our other DB's. Sauce IS an excellent DB but could be HOF if he ( AND all our other DB's would turn and look for the ball and not be so handsy)  My ORIGINAL post was an opinion and an observation having played that position many years ago. We are still allowed opinions or I guess maybe not.

Gardener has three penalties this whole season so far. Have there been some others that could have been called? Sure, but isn’t that better than being called for DPI or holding when there isn’t any? 
 

DBs are allowing to get handsy. They have as much right to play for the ball as a receiver. DBs also do not HAVE to turn their head around. As long as they play the receiver in such a way that they can time the throw. No one is saying that they shouldn’t turn their head around, but if they don’t, they had better be good at reading the receiver. Sauce is good at reading the receiver. Will it bite him? Sure. Will he still be a top flight DB? You betcha. 
 

File this under “things to not really worry about.”

[Swampfox]

5 minutes ago, the Claw said:

Gardener has three penalties this whole season so far. Have there been some others that could have been called? Sure, but isn’t that better than being called for DPI or holding when there isn’t any? 
 

DBs are allowing to get handsy. They have as much right to play for the ball as a receiver. DBs also do not HAVE to turn their head around. As long as they play the receiver in such a way that they can time the throw. No one is saying that they shouldn’t turn their head around, but if they don’t, they had better be good at reading the receiver. Sauce is good at reading the receiver. Will it bite him? Sure. Will he still be a top flight DB? You betcha. 
 

File this under “things to not really worry about.”

Thank you for your concise and accurate reply. Don't disagree with it. In one of my posts I said that QB's throw "back shouldered" passes is because CB's don't turn and look. Brady practically made a living doing that. I have bemoaned for 50 + years that DB's simply don't turn and look for the ball enough. I see it every game and don't understand why they don't way too often.

 

[the Claw]

23 minutes ago, Swampfox said:

Thank you for your concise and accurate reply. Don't disagree with it. In one of my posts I said that QB's throw "back shouldered" passes is because CB's don't turn and look. Brady practically made a living doing that. I have bemoaned for 50 + years that DB's simply don't turn and look for the ball enough. I see it every game and don't understand why they don't way too often.

 

Well, I guess if you’ve been bemoaning it for 50 years, maybe it’s a problem that isn’t going to go away and it’s just part of the game? Back shoulder throws are not a great example because they’re specifically designed to take advantage of the fact that dbs have to look at two places at one time. Besides, a db can turn his head and run straight into a wr on an underthrown pass and get caught for dpi. You have the benefit of knowing when the qb is throwing the ball on the screen. In real life this is all happening in the span of what, 3-4 seconds? I think it’s arguable that it’s actually a good thing that Gardener can read a WR like he can because it eliminates the need to locate the qb and the ball. As long as he continues to have that ability, it may very well be an asset. 

I would always take a dpi over a wr taking it to the house. Every day and twice on sundays.

I mean, 3 penalties. All season. Until it becomes a problem, it’s not a problem. 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

Stupid take ?    He may already be there. I don't think just yet.  You are arguing my point that I wish he would turn his head more. Really ? I also wish he wouldn't be so handsy. Reed too    You actually disagree that DB should NOT turn head and look for the ball? THAT was one of my two points.  Holy cow

I am not arguing that there might be a few plays you would coach him to turn his head. I am objecting to the concept that he is not there. Like I said he is ELITE at any analytical measure you can throw on him. He is at minimum Top 3 in the NFL yet you keep acting like he is a mid-range rookie with a lot of issues to address.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

OMG   That caption proved your point !  Oh no.   All it proved is that you never played DB

Did you play Single-A Baseball as well?

[Wit]

4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

Sauce is far better than Revis was his rookie year.

Sauce has played 12 games. 

Revis will be a first ballot HOFer...

 

Its also in the flag happy era we live in today. Very impressive.

[Swampfox]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Did you play Single-A Baseball as well?

Typical dumb ass comment when you can't make a point. 

[Swampfox]

3 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I am not arguing that there might be a few plays you would coach him to turn his head. I am objecting to the concept that he is not there. Like I said he is ELITE at any analytical measure you can throw on him. He is at minimum Top 3 in the NFL yet you keep acting like he is a mid-range rookie with a lot of issues to address.

Good point and that is your opinion. I will wait until the end of the season to decide for myself. I think he is great and am very pleased we picked him at 4.  I never said he was bad or that we shouldn't have picked him. I just wish he and ALL our DB's would turn their heads more. When I watch other games,  I watch footballs wiz by def heads at head level.  How many times you all have seen the ball hit the back of the helmet or shoulder or back of def when he could have intercepted if he looked.  Sorry, pet peeve of mine since I played DB.

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Swampfox said:

Typical dumb ass comment when you can't make a point. 

It's a reference to an old inside joke on JN.  But sure, keep on being a d**k to everyone, you're doing great.  

[Swampfox]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's a reference to an old inside joke on JN.  But sure, keep on being a d**k to everyone, you're doing great.  

Again. Calling someone a name d**k does NOT prove your point. That's what the press does when they call someone a name instead trying to prove their point. In this battle sir, you are unarmed.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Swampfox said:

Again. Calling someone a name d**k does NOT prove your point. That's what the press does when they call someone a name instead trying to prove their point. In this battle sir, you are unarmed.

I didn't say you're a d**k.  I said you're BEING a d**k.  There's a difference there.  You may be a swell guy capable of making great points.  In this thread, you're being a d**k.  Do better.

[Swampfox]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I didn't say you're a d**k.  I said you're BEING a d**k.  There's a difference there.  You may be a swell guy capable of making great points.  In this thread, you're being a d**k.  Do better.

oh OK if you say so.

[JohnnyLV]

On 12/9/2022 at 11:57 AM, Swampfox said:

Good point and that is your opinion. I will wait until the end of the season to decide for myself. I think he is great and am very pleased we picked him at 4.  I never said he was bad or that we shouldn't have picked him. I just wish he and ALL our DB's would turn their heads more. When I watch other games,  I watch footballs wiz by def heads at head level.  How many times you all have seen the ball hit the back of the helmet or shoulder or back of def when he could have intercepted if he looked.  Sorry, pet peeve of mine since I played DB.

 

Sauce is so "there" that Allen did not even throw his way, And you can compare Sauce's season to the best in recent years

 

[Jetsfan80]

31 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Sauce is so "there" that Allen did not even throw his way, And you can compare Sauce's season to the best in recent years

 

 

But he doesn't turn his head around enough.  You even play DB, bruh??

[JohnnyLV]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

But he doesn't turn his head around enough.  You even play DB, bruh??

Exactly.  And he only tackles when he needs to track someone 40 yards across the field. His PBU won't really show up on any highlight film or stat but that break up was subtly brilliant. He is absolutely amazing.