..starting OT's spoken 4 ?

[Warfish]

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It's a gig not really a job but cobble together enough gigs every little bit helps

Gotcha.

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 0 years removed from a below average injury ridden season

Below average...for a HOF'er.  

11th in passing yards.  >2:1 TD:INT ratio.  91.1 QB rating.

Again, replacing the 32nd ranked, worst QB in the NFL, two years running.

I'll repeat, it takes great effort to couch this as a negative to be concerned about rather than a meaningful upgrade, lol.

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

No one else knows it as well

If it's one thing Aaron Rodgers is known for it's his ability to teach youngster 

that's sarcasm if you aren't picking it up

Oh, I'm picking it up, but you're overstating the routine.  Teams change O-Co's all the time, and the roster need to learn new systems.

The difference here is the QB (most vital guy, right) doesn't need to learn it, and can support the team learning it.

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

It's an upgrade in the sense that John Benton got arrested in the offseason for DUI. Neither man is making big time money. Honestly, Frank Pollack was a half-decent one, but they didn't give him much to work with. These guys all probably make the same low salary so yes a sidegrade is a nice way to put it 

Seems like sidegrade is just the way to put it, no "nice way" required.  

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the model counts a new starter "from the pipeline" (Been there a year plus in the system) different from a "Fa Vet" which is also different from a "Rookie who's never played" 

To be completely transparent the Jets' current grade of 24th is based on 1 new starter Tippmann and 1 position swap Becton. It's shady to count Becton as a starter but the model overrates Brown's current condition so it evens out.

We have a mostly experience, veteran O-line roster + a top draft prospect + a possible return of a elite draft prospect + a few decent kids as depth.

The talent is there.  The health is the question.  That's always the question....

37 minutes ago, bitonti said:

  I'm not concerned about replacing Aaron Rodgers with Zach Wilson. I'm more concerned about when Zach comes in for Aaron. ON paper that should be never but Wilson honestly shouldn't be on the roster at all and he's probably going to play real snaps when we least want him to 

Rodgers has missed 0 games the past 5 seasons.

He's missed meaningful time only once the past nine seasons.

While I too want Wilson replaced, it is what it is. 

There is no indication he will have to "play real snaps" here beyond paranoia.  Rodgers is an Iron Man, but with us he'll suddenly and completely stop and be "like an egg back there"?  Is that what the odds say, or what paranoia says?

[bitonti]

45 minutes ago, jgb said:

I wouldn’t have taken the Becton risk. Very skeptical of his discipline and motivation if he doesn’t feel the pressure of an immediate potential payday. Saw him crash diet before draft and now right before contract year. Hopefully the light went on but, I’d need 2 years minimum of sustained effort before paying him more than for the coming season.

Would’ve also resigned Q last year. Giving the right players a raise earlier actually results in lower overall spend over the life of the contract. 

i don't have any rational reason for believing in Becton other than he's young and sometimes young guys have to learn how to be pro's

his kid being born probably was a cue to have him grow up and stop eating ice cream for breakfast 

also It's not really his fault Greg Van Roten rolled him up. That guy spent more time on the turf than (DIRTY JOKE HERE)

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Seems like sidegrade is just the way to put it, no "nice way" required.  

 

FWIW Taylor LEwan (another dirtbag) had some very unkind things to say about Keith Carter

“Keith and I have had a very up-and-down relationship, and I think it’s ended at a much higher point,” Lewan said. “Like when Keith first got there, the way he came in and the way he was trying to act towards everybody, like very disrespectful, very authoritative, but in a very like dictatorship-type of way. Keith grew every single year, and he did [have] impossible standards. … Sometimes you’d just want a pat on the back and you’d never really get that.”

 

Lewan admitted Carter had the deck stacked against him a bit this season, losing several offensive lineman at various points during the year. Lewan himself suffered a season-ending ACL injury in Week 2, center Ben Jones was sidelined five games due to a concussion, Nate Davis missed five games because of an ankle injury, and rookie Nick Petit-Frere missed Week 17 with an ankle injury.

But Lewan also seemed to insinuate that some of those injuries may have been self-inflicted due to the taxing nature of Carter’s vigorous practices.

 

“I just wish he focused a little bit more on taking care of the older players,” Lewan said. “I think Ben got a little more of that toward the end, and I kind of did this year. But those practices are hard and they wear on your body and they wear your tires out really fast, and [Carter] could see it toward the end of the season sometimes.”

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

Rodgers has missed 0 games the past 5 seasons.

He's missed meaningful time only once the past nine seasons.

Favre was an iron man too until he tore his biceps with the Jets

Father Time is undefeated

 

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

i don't have any rational reason for believing in Becton other than he's young and sometimes young guys have to learn how to be pro's

his kid being born probably was a cue to have him grow up and stop eating ice cream for breakfast 

also It's not really his fault Greg Van Roten rolled him up. That guy spent more time on the turf than (DIRTY JOKE HERE)

The initial injury wasn’t his fault but not committing himself to his rehab was. Without being a doctor, I put the re-injury largely on him. Seems he still hasn’t accepted that he had, at a minimum, some degree of responsibility for the re-injury — not a good indicator of a guy for whom the light came on IMHO. Also coming back from a 2 year layoff would be difficult for anyone, even pros with unimpeachable work ethics and commitment. I think it’s very unlikely he plays well enough to come close to the option value. Now, an argument could be made that it avoids burning the bridge and keeps the potential there of a long term deal if Becton rounds into form by the end of the season, but that’s a lot of if’s nested within if’s and as a GM it wouldn’t sway me.

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, jgb said:

The initial injury wasn’t his fault but not committing himself to his rehab was. Without being a doctor, I put the re-injury largely on him. Seems he still hasn’t accepted that he had, at a minimum, some degree of responsibility for the re-injury — not a good indicator of a guy for whom the light came on IMHO. Also coming back from a 2 year layoff would be difficult for anyone, even pros with unimpeachable work ethics and commitment. I think it’s very unlikely he plays well enough to come close to the option value. Now, an argument could be made that it avoids burning the bridge and keeps the potential there of a long term deal if Becton rounds into form by the end of the season, but that’s a lot of if’s nested within if’s and as a GM it wouldn’t sway me.

I agree with all this but the X factor is how dominant he was in the run game when he was healthy

this isn't a Zach situation where he's all potential with zero good games - there was a moment when Becton was looking like a Pro Bowler next to AVT 

it feels like the team has already written him off which I think could prove to be a mistake. 

there's probably no potential for a long term deal here unless they tag him, which is expensive for OL 

 

[jgb]

16 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I agree with all this but the X factor is how dominant he was in the run game when he was healthy

this isn't a Zach situation where he's all potential with zero good games - there was a moment when Becton was looking like a Pro Bowler next to AVT 

it feels like the team has already written him off which I think could prove to be a mistake. 

there's probably no potential for a long term deal here unless they tag him, which is expensive for OL 

 

I hear you draft for potential and you put new money on the table for production IMHO

I think he would demand a trade if Jets tag him.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

I hear you draft for potential and you put new money on the table for production IMHO

I think if he has a tag-worth year and the Jets tag him, he demands a trade.

agree with all that 

I keep coming back to it's not his fault he got rolled over by GVR

It's actually JD's fault for employing GVR as a starter during the tank era

 

[Warfish]

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I agree with all this but the X factor is how dominant he was in the run game when he was healthy

this isn't a Zach situation where he's all potential with zero good games - there was a moment when Becton was looking like a Pro Bowler next to AVT 

In the run game.

He was average at best in the passing game.

Two years ago.  

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

it feels like the team has already written him off which I think could prove to be a mistake.

Or they just think he actually should earn his job rather than be handed it, a nice change of pace here.

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

there's probably no potential for a long term deal here unless they tag him, which is expensive for OL 

First, actual production on an actual field would be required.

After that, money can solve any bitterness.

But for Becton, serious production would need to come first.

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

it was on a plane    that part of the story is always left out 

 

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Dude.  Still.

 

People sitting near Bitonti on the plane:

 

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

it's not the world's most glamorous job but I grade all the NFL lines for a fantasy website

 

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

In the run game.

He was average at best in the passing game.

Two years ago.  

Becton looking like a beast 2 years ago seems like forever but Rodgers being an MVP two years ago seems like only yesterday. 

 

You're right tho, everyone involved would rather have Brown vs Myles Garrett instead of Becton vs Myles Garrett at LT and that's why Brown is the "starter" over Becton. Neither are great bets but Becton can change game in run blocking. His Pass Blocking needs work it's true.

contracts dictate playing time both Brown and Becton are among the highest cap hits on the team it makes sense that both would play alot this season

what's concerning that for all that money, FA signings and Mid round draft picks it's July and we don't really know what the lineup will be 

there's an honest case to be made that AVT is the best RT on the roster

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People sitting near Bitonti on the plane:

It's not my proudest moment 

It's time I'll never get back and I feel bad about it 

ya know how sometimes bad movies go all the way around from Bad to Good 

this is not one of those times

I just thought Tom Brady made one of the worst movies in history and people should know about it. 

 

 

 

[#27TheDominator]

22 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Becton looking like a beast 2 years ago seems like forever but Rodgers being an MVP two years ago seems like only yesterday. 

Aaron Rodgers was the MVP of the 2021 season which ended in January 2022.  Mekhi Becton last played in an NFL game on September 12, 2021 playing less than 50 snaps and not looking like a beast to my recollection.

[addage]

7 hours ago, bitonti said:

There's a better chance that a 24 year old learns how to eat correctly than a 37 year old staying healthy and strong forever 

Generally speaking, you are 100% right.  Jets have taken a great risk with AR.  

But AR is quite a specimen at 37.  He's way out on the positive end of the bell curve.  Becton, on the other hand, is also way out on the bell curve with his weight.

Without picking on Becton, obesity stats aren't promising.  And he has shown himself to be an injury risk.  He is far better off at his current weight than the previously reported 400 lbs. But 350 lbs. is still a lot of weight to carry.

I don't like either bet. 

[Jetsfan80]

55 minutes ago, addage said:

Becton, on the other hand, is also way out on the bell curve with his weight.

He ate the bell

[Warfish]

17 hours ago, bitonti said:

Becton looking like a beast 2 years ago seems like forever but Rodgers being an MVP two years ago seems like only yesterday.

1. Becton didn't "look like a beast".  He looked like a great-to-above average run blocker and below average pass blocker.

2. Becton has played 0 games the past two years.

3. Rodgers has played 33 of 33 games, and produced 4,115/37/4/111.9 and 3,695/26/12/91.1 seasons at QB.

You think you're talking apples vs. apples here Bit?  

17 hours ago, bitonti said:

You're right tho, everyone involved would rather have Brown vs Myles Garrett instead of Becton vs Myles Garrett at LT and that's why Brown is the "starter" over Becton. Neither are great bets but Becton can change game in run blocking. His Pass Blocking needs work it's true.

If Becton plays like the Becton of his pre-injury rookie year (we forget he was hurt as a rookie too, and took himself out of games that year as well), then that could still be a piece to build around.

But no one should be betting on that.  Becton's career is, so far, defined by injury and unreliability.  Not quality play.

17 hours ago, bitonti said:

what's concerning that for all that money, FA signings and Mid round draft picks it's July and we don't really know what the lineup will be

Not sure why that's an issue, competition is always good.  Let the best players playing the best play.

17 hours ago, bitonti said:

there's an honest case to be made that AVT is the best RT on the roster

Certainly possible.  We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.  Nothing is going to change before camp/preseason, this is all just the same old speculation.  

[bitonti]

37 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

Not sure why that's an issue, competition is always good.  Let the best players playing the best play

The best lines know their lineups and keep them constant for years 

The worst lines play musical chairs 

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The best lines know their lineups and keep them constant for years 

We weren't a "best line".

Teams trying to BECOME a "best line" have to have competition to identify those linemen, and lots of linemen prospects/options to compete.

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The worst lines play musical chairs 

Which is what we've been, primarily due to injury more than anything else the last few years.

[bitonti]

Just now, Warfish said:

We weren't a "best line".

Teams trying to BECOME a "best line" have to have competition to identify those linemen, and lots of linemen prospects/options to compete.

Which is what we've been, primarily due to injury more than anything else the last few years.

I don't know what we're arguing 

If your not above average you're below it 

The Jets have a below average line not only because of uncertainty but because avt is their only proven commodity 

[Warfish]

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I don't know what we're arguing

Why do you think we're arguing?

I see this as two old pals sitting at a bar chatting about our favorite team.  No conflict here.

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If your not above average you're below it 

Right.  We were below average last year.

This year is TBD.

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The Jets have a below average line not only because of uncertainty but because avt is their only proven commodity 

Had.

This year is TBD.

I don't know about your crystal ball, but mine isn't certain what the 2023 O-line will look like ultimately.

Alot of change and factors at play.

[Larz]

 

[Larz]

 

[OilfieldJet]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:22 AM, bitonti said:

As a group We should be more worried about 40 year old QB than the 37 year old lt 

Joe Douglas has options at tackle when the inevitable happens 

QB room is a wing and a prayer 

 

They could be linked.

[jtomm]

NFL training camp: Where battles are won and lost.With all 32 NFL teams hitting practice fields in full force, the time is now for players across the league to stake their claim on jobs entering Week 1.

Certain positions offer more clear-cut battle lines in camp and the preseason. Quarterbacks are obvious, and there are more than a couple QB skirmishes to track this offseason. Wide receivers and running backs will fight to stand out in crowded rooms. With rotations up front on defense and more nickel usage, those gigs can be less compelling to track but are still crucial for the makeup of teams, especially those seeking depth.

All 32 clubs will conduct battles royale up and down the roster. But some big tussles are more interesting than others. Let's look at 10 camp battles I find the most intriguing as we speed toward the season:

--   Rank 10  New York Jets OFFENSIVE LINE

Every internet outlet is contractually obligated to mention the New York Jets in each post this offseason. Kidding -- but not really. For all the hype following the Aaron Rodgers trade, there remain questions about how the line settles and whether the group can improve on last year. Duane Brown starts camp on the PUP list, which adds more questions than answers. Mekhi Becton has received rave reviews this offseason but played just one game in the past two seasons. Veteran addition Billy Turner has experience on both sides and worked with Rodgers in Green Bay. Brown, Becton, Turner and 2022 fourth-rounder Max Mitchell could vie for the starting tackle spots if all are healthy. Inside, Gang Green re-signed 30-year-old center Connor McGovern, then drafted Joe Tippmann in the second round. The two should scrap for the starting gig during camp. Rodgers could lift the Jets to new heights in his first season in New York -- but not if he's constantly on his back. How the O-line plays will be key to any Gang Green turnaround in 2023.

 >>  https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-training-camp-ten-most-intriguing-position-battles-to-track-in-2023

[JKlecko]

On 7/10/2023 at 12:20 PM, Rhg1084 said:

Is it a given Tipperman will be the starting Center? Or will Mcgovern have a shot?

IMO it's not a given, but I will be shocked if Tippman doesn't win the job.  McGovern just isn't very good.  You see what the Jets thought of him.  They signed him to a very cheap contract, I think just a little above the vet minimum.  IMO if Schweitzer and/or Colon look good enough, McGovern may not even make the team.

[JKlecko]

On 7/24/2023 at 8:31 AM, Larz said:

 

I think he has a chance.  It all depends upon whether it is really a fair and open competition.  Saleh has already said that he envisions the best 5 having Becton at RT.  That could bias him.  He also has raved about Brown's selflessness playing hurt last season when his contract was guaranteed, and he didn't have to play.  That and the fact that Brown has never played RT could influence/bias Saleh.  It could also depend upon how much voice Carter and Hackett will have in who the starters are.

[JKlecko]

On 7/11/2023 at 5:04 PM, bitonti said:

 

there's an honest case to be made that AVT is the best RT on the roster

 

 

 

 

He may be the best RT on the roster at the moment, but that could be not the case by the time TC ends.  Also, even if he is the best RT on the roster, that doesn't mean that playing him at RT is the right/best thing to do.  Becton or Mitchell are better than whomever would play RG if AVT played RT.  Saleh said the best 5 would start and play.  OL play is more about chemistry and timing, working as a unit, rather than 5 players working individually.

[JKlecko]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:52 PM, jgb said:

I hear you draft for potential and you put new money on the table for production IMHO

I think he would demand a trade if Jets tag him.

He might demand a trade, but if he wins either the starting LT or RT job, and the Jets win a SB or at least go deep into the playoffs, everything could change.  MLF and the old OL Coach (Benton?) with whom I think Becton is unhappy, are no longer here.  If he plays well and the Jets show him love and respect, he could decide to stay.

[Beerfish]

I wonder if we did in fact lose out on Broderick Jones due to the swapping of picks with the packers this year.

I am sure the official line is 'we were taking mcdonald all along' but I'm not convinced.

[bitonti]

10 minutes ago, JKlecko said:

Becton or Mitchell are better than whomever would play RG if AVT played RT.  Saleh said the best 5 would start and play.  

Disagree - there's a real case that the loser of the McGovern/Tippmann/Schweitzer competition at center would be fine at RG.

Mitchell by the way is not a game changer. He's a nice story and a great kid to root for but not an impact player. He said so himself in the Athletic article. 

[JKlecko]

On 7/11/2023 at 10:22 AM, bitonti said:

As a group We should be more worried about 40 year old QB than the 37 year old lt 

Joe Douglas has options at tackle when the inevitable happens 

QB room is a wing and a prayer 

 

I disagree.  Rodgers hasn't missed a game since 2017.  I'm not worried about his staying health and playing.

I'm new here, but you sound like one of those fans who have already given up on Zach, which imo is a mistake.  Zach has too much talen to give up on this soon.  Yes, he's looked awful, but he was put into the worst situation possible...a rookie HC, a rookie OC who had never developed or worked with QBs, a rookie QB Coach, a horrible OL, a bad defense, and little or no talent around him on offense.  He didn't have the right footwork fundamentals for the WCO, and one cannot fix fundamentals/technique while playing.  That causes one to hesitate and to have to think too much, which slows them down.  In addition, he was being asked to play in a totally different way, with a mindset diametrically opposed to how he had played at BYU.  To do that is bad enough and expect the rookie to succeed is unrealistic, but the WCO is also a notoriously complex and difficult offense to learn/master, so it really makes it dumb. By his second season his confidence was pretty shaky, and by the time he was benched, it was shot.  To succeed at anything, one has to have confidence and be relaxed.  The Jets had made a big deal about Zach not having to carry the team, yet that is exactly the position they put him into.  I love JD, but he screwed up.  If Zach was going to have to start day one, then Brian Daboll should have been the hire at HC.  He had a proven track record of developing QBs.  He also would have probably altered his offensive scheme to fit what Zach did well coming out of college, rather than trying to force him (a square peg) into a round hole.  MLF never adapted his scheme to Zach and he did nothing to help Zach get into a groove and the offense in sync, and he hurt rather than helped Zach's development.  I remember reading that early in Zach's rookie season, that early in the games, rather than helping Zach settle in and build confidence, he was trying to exploit weaknesses in opponents' secondaries.  That's something you do with a veteran QB who is comfortable and experienced in the offense, not a rookie.  Zach probably should have sat for a year or two behind a proven quality veteran QB, and that's not what Flacko was.

IMO it's a tribute to Zach that he isn't ruined already.  He is now in a great situation with Rodgers mentoring/coaching him, and Hackett coaching him.  His confidence and accuracy are coming back.  He knows the WCO a lot better than he did, and Hackett's version is better, and will be less predictable. It doesn't have all the pre-snap motion.  As a result, Zach is more poised in the pocket.  He has to prove that he can do it in preseason action, but I have confidence that he will turn things around and wind up being a very good QB in the NFL.

[jgb]

21 minutes ago, JKlecko said:

He might demand a trade, but if he wins either the starting LT or RT job, and the Jets win a SB or at least go deep into the playoffs, everything could change.  MLF and the old OL Coach (Benton?) with whom I think Becton is unhappy, are no longer here.  If he plays well and the Jets show him love and respect, he could decide to stay.

Lots of things are possible. I play the odds because what else can you do.

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, JKlecko said:

I'm new here, but you sound like one of those fans who have already given up on Zach, which imo is a mistake. 

I gave up on Zach before he was drafted 

[JKlecko]

15 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Disagree - there's a real case that the loser of the McGovern/Tippmann/Schweitzer competition at center would be fine at RG.

Mitchell by the way is not a game changer. He's a nice story and a great kid to root for but not an impact player. He said so himself in the Athletic article. 

No one said that we had to agree.  Tippman or Schweitzer may be "fine" at RG, but imo they wouldn't be better than Becton or MItchell at RT, and the OL may not work as well together.  For certain it wouldn't with McGovern at RG.  He's a barely passable C, but he's awful at OG.  The worst years of his career were when he played OG for Denver.  He himself admits that he's a much better C than OG.

[JKlecko]

On 7/11/2023 at 1:25 PM, jgb said:

The initial injury wasn’t his fault but not committing himself to his rehab was. Without being a doctor, I put the re-injury largely on him. Seems he still hasn’t accepted that he had, at a minimum, some degree of responsibility for the re-injury — not a good indicator of a guy for whom the light came on IMHO. Also coming back from a 2 year layoff would be difficult for anyone, even pros with unimpeachable work ethics and commitment. I think it’s very unlikely he plays well enough to come close to the option value. Now, an argument could be made that it avoids burning the bridge and keeps the potential there of a long term deal if Becton rounds into form by the end of the season, but that’s a lot of if’s nested within if’s and as a GM it wouldn’t sway me.

What makes you think that Becton wasn't committed to his rehab?  Everything I read and saw said that he had worked hard at his rehab.  Then news came out this year that Becton had told them in TC last year that his knee was still sore, and they told him to get back out there, and that's when he got hurt again.  At that point in time, it was only a one-year layoff.  He hired a nutritionist last year and began changing his eating habits.  He had always played at a big size and never dealt with a major injury before. over the course of the last year, he realized that he needed to make changes, to lose weight, and evidently to get better advice and training from a new trainer and a new agent.

It's been two years now, but by all accounts, he is in fantastic shape and lost around 50 pounds.

[JKlecko]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I gave up on Zach before he was drafted 

That's your loss.  You'll look pretty foolish if/when he turns things around and starts playing like the #2 pick in the draft.  It may not happen at this point, but I wouldn't bet against him. He is a hard worker, has the right mindset, and is in a situation now where it could definitely happen.