Biggest HC 'reach hire' in Jet history

[johnny green balls]

Don't look now, but the Jets just hired a brand new HC who is going to do just that.

Again, if Mangini gets us into the playoffs 3 out of the next 5 years I will be happy

think of it this way: if your team is a real contender and you lose your qb to injury/free agency, you go out and get the best available veteren out there no matter what the price. if your team blows, you look for your "quarterback of the future," regardless of how green he is now and hope you hit a home run and he grows with the team and becomes great. our team sucks and no coach can make us a contender this year so why not take a chance at finding the next great coach?

anyway, in response to sj's question, herm was much, much more of a reach when he was hired than if we hired him now. if you're going to take a risk on an unknown, do it when the team blows anyway. herm, hired to lead a legit team with zero gameplanning experience = biggest reach in jets history and quite possibly top 10 coaching reach in nfl history.

[BwanaZulia]

This is a ridiculous take. Hermie inherited a playoff-ready team. Mangini is getting one that has been hermanized.

That is crap. It is a total myth.

In other threads you say every team can go from worst to first any season.

Both teams are one year off from playoff teams.

BZ

[Bob]

In other threads you say every team can go from worst to first any season.

I have never, ever said that. I suppose it's technically true that teams can do that, but I don't believe in its likelyhood at all.

[Sperm Edwards]

Worst to first with a new HC since the AFL-NFL merger?

1975 Baltimore Colts (Ted Marchibroda)

1992 San Diego Chargers (Bobby Ross)

1997 New York Giants (Jim Fassel)

2000 New Orleans Saints (Jim Haslett)

2004 Atlanta Falcons (Jim Mora, Jr.)

What are there, like 5 coaching changes per year x 35 years? I would agree it is far easier now than before free-agency & the salary cap, which is why it only occurred once in the first 20 years. It's happened 3x in the last 9 years, but it's not exactly common. Also (and not to take away from Mora's accomplishment) a team like the 2004 Falcons were missing their #1 playmaker (Vick) in 2003 and got him back in 2004, and the NFC South wasn't exactly the NFL's powerhouse division that year.

The Jets in 2005 weren't in "rebuilding mode" gearing for a run in 2006. It's a different situation. But I'll be optimistic until it's been shown that they're just not ready for prime time yet.

[Preston Howley III]

Don't look now, but the Jets just hired a brand new HC who is going to do just that.

Again, if Mangini gets us into the playoffs 3 out of the next 5 years I will be happy*

BZ

* Yes, yes, I do want them to go all the way, but you can't win the Super Bowl if you can't get to the playoffs. I do believe in the two season theory.

Don't look now, but the team sucks. Which makes a "learn while you earn" HC palatable, wheras in 2001 it wasn't.

Also, Herm was still "earn while you earn" Herm 5 years after he was hired. We'll see if Mangini can figure out there is 60 seconds in a minute, by his 5th year.

[BwanaZulia]

Don't look now, but the team sucks. Which makes a "learn while you earn" HC palatable, wheras in 2001 it wasn't.

Also, Herm was still "earn while you earn" Herm 5 years after he was hired. We'll see if Mangini can figure out there is 60 seconds in a minute, by his 5th year.

In 2001 he took a 9-7 (Non playoff team) and made the playoffs at 10-6. Next year, 9-7 and playoffs again.

I know the Herm Hating around here is at an all time high, but Mangini is getting a good team a team that two years ago was a kick away from the AFC Championship.

Sure, last year sucked, but you have to chalk up some of the suckiness to the ton of inuries (2 x QB, 2 x RB, etc, etc, etc). If you don't, you are just putting on your blinders.

BZ

[SouthernJet]

I think the term is hermogenized, but your point is still a valid one.

POTW nominee

[SouthernJet]

anyway, in response to sj's question, herm was much, much more of a reach when he was hired than if we hired him now. if you're going to take a risk on an unknown, do it when the team blows anyway. herm, hired to lead a legit team with zero gameplanning experience = biggest reach in jets history and quite possibly top 10 coaching reach in nfl history.

POTW nominee

[Preston Howley III]

In 2001 he took a 9-7 (Non playoff team) and made the playoffs at 10-6. Next year, 9-7 and playoffs again.

I know the Herm Hating around here is at an all time high, but Mangini is getting a good team a team that two years ago was a kick away from the AFC Championship.

Sure, last year sucked, but you have to chalk up some of the suckiness to the ton of inuries (2 x QB, 2 x RB, etc, etc, etc). If you don't, you are just putting on your blinders.

BZ

Herm apologists like to obfuscate for Herm and make it sound like it wasn’t that good of a team he inherited, because it helps embellish his ‘accomplishment’ of making the playoffs three times in five years (The Hermaphrodite mantra). Here’s what Herm said when he initially got the job in 2001:

“These guys know how to win. This organization is strong, and my task is to keep it going. Two years ago, they knew they needed one more win to get to the Super Bowl. They fell a little short of the playoffs last year, but with one or two wins at the end maybe I’m not up here talking to you.”

Herm took over a potential contender, and in three seasons, ran them right into the ground. They went from 10-6, to 9-7, to 6-10. Herm said that it was his “task to keep it going”. Going where?

[BwanaZulia]

Herm apologists like to obfuscate for Herm and make it sound like it wasn

[SouthernJet]

I think the biggest thing that hurt Herm in the long run despite his record was that he just came off as a idiot.

It was obvious listening to him he was borderline uneducated and his XsOs/Game management were laughable.

So as BZ says, short of a SuperBowl he was always going to have the Dunce label on him because of the way he came off in public.

[BwanaZulia]

I think the biggest thing that hurt Herm in the long run despite his record was that he just came off as a idiot.

It was obvious listening to him he was borderline uneducated and his XsOs/Game management were laughable.

So as BZ says, short of a SuperBowl he was always going to have the Dunce label on him because of the way he came off in public.

I agree that he came out poor when talking about the X/Os. Maybe that is why Mangini doesn't talk at all?

BZ

[SouthernJet]

I agree that he came out poor when talking about the X/Os. Maybe that is why Mangini doesn't talk at all?

BZ

u know BZ, that's actually probably part of the Belly-tree thought process,,

talking alot does two things, gives opponent edge and u could come off as a idiot

[Preston Howley III]

To 10-6 in 2004?

How did he do that? Was that all luck? BBQs?

The Herm Haters just don't want there to be any positives from the last 5 years. Fine. You hate him. You think he lied. You think he was too soft. Too much of a media whore.

He didn't produce the Super Bowl, but he produced some good years and some Playoff appearances. Not the best, but certainly not the horrible coach you want to make him out to be because it suits your agenda.

BZ

Herm produced some good years? No, Herm happened to be in the right place at the right time (at our expense). Herm did what all pretenders do, he looked good on paper.

BZ, the Chiefs got a good team, right? What do you think their record will be next season?

[Preston Howley III]

To 10-6 in 2004?

How did he do that? Was that all luck? BBQs?

BZ

He went from 9-7 to 10-6... to 9-7 to 6-10...

BBQ's- probably the reason the team started, what was it- 2-4?

Luck- Well yeah, luck did play a role, 2000 Jets finish 9-7 because Jon Hall can't hit a FG in extra point range, but hits a 51 yarder against the Raiders in 2001 so they finish with more more win.

Also, the Raiders game was postponed to the end to of the season.

Did you even watch the 2001 season? The team played like garbage. They were humiliated and outscored by unprecedented amounts. They gave up more yardage on the ground than any other team in NFL history (I think).

233 yards to Garrison Hearst on MNF.

How can you go on defending this moron, Herman Edwards?

[Sperm Edwards]

BBQ's- probably the reason the team started, what was it- 2-4?

Luck- Well yeah, luck did play a role, 2000 Jets finish 9-7 because Jon Hall can't hit a FG in extra point range, but hits a 51 yarder against the Raiders in 2001 so they finish with more more win.

Also, the Raiders game was postponed to the end to of the season.

Did you even watch the 2001 season? The team played like garbage. They were humiliated and outscored by unprecedented amounts. They gave up more yardage on the ground than any other team in NFL history (I think).

233 yards to Garrison Hearst on MNF.

How can you go on defending this moron, Herman Edwards?

Actually, in BZ's defense, he did predict 10-6 for the Chiefs this year.

[Preston Howley III]

Actually, in BZ's defense, he did predict 10-6 for the Chiefs this year.

BZ's one of the few remaining, unrepentant Hermaphrodites. He thinks we should have kept Herm indefinitely, replacing the roster, OC's, DC's et al indefinitely, until Herm finally got it right. He bumbled and lucked his way into two playoff wins in 5 years.

Wow. But Hermaphrodites put a big exclamation point on it "he did it with a team that just wasn't any good." It was a good team, with a shelf life that expired while Herm "learned while he earned". Herm pissed it away. 2-8 lifetime against the Pat's.

[Sperm Edwards]

BZ's one of the few remaining, unrepentant Hermaphrodites. He thinks we should have kept Herm indefinitely, replacing the roster, OC's, DC's et al indefinitely, until Herm finally got it right. He bumbled and lucked his way into two playoff wins in 5 years.

Wow. But Hermaphrodites put a big exclamation point on it "he did it with a team that just wasn't any good."

Puhleeze.

I'm not coming to his defense in agreement, but rather that he did at least make a prediction based on the combination of Herm + KC's roster.

For my own part, I think I may have made some posts on it in the past.

[Preston Howley III]

I'm not coming to his defense in agreement, but rather that he did at least make a prediction based on the combination of Herm + KC's roster.

For my own part, I think I may have made some posts on it in the past.

I hear ya.

10-6 sounds reasonable. I mean, it's not like Herm has ever won more than 10 games in a season, before. Of course, he had such a shtty Jets team.

So I guess the Chiefs suck, too. But Herm, through his awesome coaching skills, will get them 10 victories this season.

[joewilly]

BZ's one of the few remaining, unrepentant Hermaphrodites. He thinks we should have kept Herm indefinitely, replacing the roster, OC's, DC's et al indefinitely, until Herm finally got it right. He bumbled and lucked his way into two playoff wins in 5 years.

Wow. But Hermaphrodites put a big exclamation point on it "he did it with a team that just wasn't any good." It was a good team, with a shelf life that expired while Herm "learned while he earned". Herm pissed it away. 2-8 lifetime against the Pat's.

bumbled & lucked his way thru 2 playoff wins?????????????????????????

Herm had a lotta faults but he fielded a team that played they're asses off in both wins

[Preston Howley III]

bumbled & lucked his way thru 2 playoff wins?????????????????????????

Herm had a lotta faults but he fielded a team that played they're asses off in both wins

The Colt's game, ok. They slaughtered them. They had a nice storybook ending to the 2002 "sht happens" season.

But against the Chargers? Yeah, but they almost blew it with Barton's roughing the QB penalty. And then the Chargers had to shank a FG. So there was a little luck. Let's not forget how the team stumbled and bumbled it's way into a 2-4 record to end that season, thanks to Herm's awesome coaching decisions.

What was Herm's overall win loss record?

How many win's agains over 500 teams?

The guy was a fraud and thank God he's gone.

[Preston Howley III]

If the blueprint for success is to start every season 2-5, finish the season with a 3 game winning streak and win your division on a fluke 9-7 record, then Herm's your guy.

I'm not gonna argue with you.

If you want to hang your hat on two playoff win's in 5 years, I'm not gonna argue with you.

[Bugg]

Just a reminder as to comparative states of the 2000 9-7 Jets and how the 10-6 2001 Jets -

If in 2000 Hall kicks a gimme FG in the rain vs. the Lions or the Jets hang on to a big 1st half lead vs. the Super Bowl-bound Ravens or both, they either win the division or at least a WC berth.

If in 2001 the Raider game doesn't get moved due to 9/11 and Hall hit a miracle kick, and Kyle Turley doesn't, on a game-winning drive by the Saints, treat Damien Robinson's helmet like a shot putt or the RTP penalty is merely called on Robinson, the Jets go 9-7 or 8-8 and don't sniff the playoffs.

Point being-the team Edwards took over was a good team, and he was as much a beneficiary of good fortune as was Al Groh a victim of bad luck.

There are some people who skip through life like under the assumption they are blessed with genius and beloved by all and always right and righteous and wonderful despite the fact they are a-holes have no idea what they're doing, but have some ability to step into pooh regularly and rarely deal with the consequences of their messes.They even get some people around them-hi there, a good chunk of the media, Mark Cannizarro and Paul Tagliabue-to believe it. And they can have very long runs where facts either don't get in the way or are simply ignored.

Edwards is one of those a-holes. If you've been in any business or any walk of life, you know these know nothing sucka$$ jerkoffs who fail upwards no matter what until the day comes when they actually can no longer point a finger or stab someone in the back. And then it's over.

As Robert Plant says, your time is gonna come, Herman, probably damn soon, in KC. He might skip by to a playoff berth for a year, but it will turn bad once he decides he's more than the color-coordinated figurehead Petersen hired him to be. Because long-term professional coaches like Cunningham and Solari knowing he's a dope aren't taking a shiv in the chops without a fight.

[Preston Howley III]

Just a reminder as to comparative states of the 2000 9-7 Jets and how the 10-6 2001 Jets -

If in 2000 Hall kicks a gimme FG in the rain vs. the Lions or the Jets hang on to a big 1st half lead vs. the Super Bowl-bound Ravens or both, they either win the division or at least a WC berth.

If in 2001 the Raider game doesn't get moved due to 9/11 and Hall hit a miracle kick, and Kyle Turley doesn't, on a game-winning drive by the Saints, treat Damien Robinson's helmet like a shot putt or the RTP penalty is merely called on Robinson, the Jets go 9-7 or 8-8 and don't sniff the playoffs.

Point being-the team Edwards took over was a good team, and he was as much a beneficiary of good fortune as was Al Groh a victim of bad luck.

There are some people who skip through life like under the assumption they are blessed with genius and beloved by all and always right and righteous and wonderful despite the fact they are a-holes have no idea what they're doing, but have some ability to step into pooh regularly and rarely deal with the consequences of their messes.They even get some people around them-hi there, a good chunk of the media, Mark Cannizarro and Paul Tagliabue-to believe it. And they can have very long runs where facts either don't get in the way or are simply ignored.

Edwards is one of those a-holes. If you've been in any business or any walk of life, you know these know nothing sucka$$ jerkoffs who fail upwards no matter what until the day comes when they actually can no longer point a finger or stab someone in the back. And then it's over.

As Robert Plant says, your time is gonna come, Herman, probably damn soon, in KC. He might skip by to a playoff berth for a year, but it will turn bad once he decides he's more than the color-coordinated figurehead Petersen hired him to be. Because long-term professional coaches like Cunningham and Solari knowing he's a dope aren't taking a shiv in the chops without a fight.

Bugg, if two 10-6 playoff seasons and one 9-7 (NINE AND SEVEN!) division title gives these guys a boner, let them have at it. If going 9-7, and winning the division on a fluke Olindo Mare missed FG and a Dolphin choke job, makes these guys shoot a load in their pants, great. If making the playoffs in 2005 'cos the Bills couldn't beat the Steelers third string, makes Hermaphrodites stain their fruit of the looms, let them rejoice!

But all I know, and I know this for a fact and I know you know it too, not one Jets fan, in the history of New York Jets fandom, shot a load in his pants when Bruce Coslet backdoored a playoff game after going 8-8, and then got his *ss kicked in by the Oilers.

Not one.

You can look it up.

[PeterNorth09]

Mangini is one of the biggest reaches for a Jets head coach. I agree Herm was a reach and obviously not a good choice but neither is Mangini.

Mangini was a defensive coordinator for one season under Belichick and did not do a great job. Without the Belichick-Tanenbaum connections Mangini would be just another defensive coordinator but because he knows the right people he's supposed to be some sort of whiz kid.

[BwanaZulia]

Herm produced some good years? No, Herm happened to be in the right place at the right time (at our expense). Herm did what all pretenders do, he looked good on paper.

BZ, the Chiefs got a good team, right? What do you think their record will be next season?

Those are the statements from someone who has no ability to give credit where it is due.

KC 2006: 10-6

The sad thing is, if Herm does well in KC for the next three years, you will say he inherited a great team and it has nothing to do with his coaching.

I agree Herm learned on the job at the New York Jets, but that is what you get when you hire a first time HC and BTW, we just did it again so expect a lot of learning.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

BZ's one of the few remaining, unrepentant Hermaphrodites. He thinks we should have kept Herm indefinitely, replacing the roster, OC's, DC's et al indefinitely, until Herm finally got it right. He bumbled and lucked his way into two playoff wins in 5 years.

Wow. But Hermaphrodites put a big exclamation point on it "he did it with a team that just wasn't any good." It was a good team, with a shelf life that expired while Herm "learned while he earned". Herm pissed it away. 2-8 lifetime against the Pat's.

Moses, you must not be reading most of what I wrote.

I don't think Herm should have stayed on indefinitely, it was probably his time to go. I will not, however, buy into the the theory that all of Herm's success was bumbling luck and all of his failures were from his incompetence. You can't have it both ways.

How about this theory?

Bill Bellichick bumbled his way into three Super Bowls.

BZ

[BwanaZulia]

The guy was a fraud and thank God he's gone.

You just showed your true colors and that you have no ability to see around your hatred.

I am done.

BZ

[Preston Howley III]

You just showed your true colors and that you have no ability to see around your hatred.

I am done.

BZ

BZ, the guy is a fraud. He doesn't know what he's doing. I know it must be difficult for you to have the curtain pulled on your hero. Alas, sometimes it's too much to handle psychologically, so you go into a state of denial.

And I do hate the fact that the best window of opportunity that I have seen since being a Jets fan, slammed shut because the keys to the kingdom were given to a fraud HC and a rookie GM who was more concerned with his commute than working out contracts with players before they could reach FA.

I do hate Herm, who manipulated Woody in 2003, coming off a losing season, to extend his contract, and then try to pull the same crap twice, while negotiating a backroom deal with another NFL franchise during a season in which he put our franchise QB back in a game, after re-injuring his surgically repaired shoulder. Herm is a fraud and a confidence man. He has zero credibility, and more than that, he's a lousy HC.

[johnny green balls]

Moses, you must not be reading most of what I wrote.

I don't think Herm should have stayed on indefinitely, it was probably his time to go. I will not, however, buy into the the theory that all of Herm's success was bumbling luck and all of his failures were from his incompetence. You can't have it both ways.

How about this theory?

Bill Bellichick bumbled his way into three Super Bowls.

BZ

you mean he mumbled his way into 3 sb's. i'll say it again: 3 out of 5 playoffs was in spite of herm, not because of him. show some intellectual honesty and answer this question: would the jets have done better over those 5 years with bellichick, gruden or even fisher at the helm? if you answer "no" then i'm sorry but you don't know squat about the game.

[Preston Howley III]

Bellichik took over the Pat's in 2000, went 5-11, and 6 years later, has 3 SB championships.

Herm took over the Jet's in 2001, went 10-6, and 5 years later, left the team in a big mess.

That's Herm's legacy. He took over a good team and ran it into the ground. Our other division rival, hired Saban, and have incrementally gotten better each season. They were 9-7 last year, does anybody think they will go 6-10 this year? If Herm was the HC, they would.

The only thing that redeemed Herm year after year, was the fact that the Bills were and are the only team in the division more poorly managed than the Jets were. Herm better hope the Raiders, Bronco's or Chargers are like the Bills. Because he's going to need at least one of those teams to run things worse than him and Peterson, if he's going to have any amount of success (you know, like finish 10-6 or 9-7).

Herm doesn't have a good winning percentage against teams over 500 when he plays them.

[joewilly]

you mean he mumbled his way into 3 sb's. i'll say it again: 3 out of 5 playoffs was in spite of herm, not because of him. show some intellectual honesty and answer this question: would the jets have done better over those 5 years with bellichick, gruden or even fisher at the helm? if you answer "no" then i'm sorry but you don't know squat about the game.

how would they have done with tice at the helm????????????????????

[Alk]

Herm is a fraud and a confidence man. He has zero credibility, and more than that, he's a lousy HC.

Lost reference!!

[johnny green balls]

how would they have done with tice at the helm????????????????????

probably about the same although tice might have had an extra win because at least he can count to sixty and that's further proof that herm sucks.

[SouthernJet]

how would they have done with tice at the helm????????????????????

two turds dont make a right