SouthernJet Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Has to be Herm or Charley Winner hands down. DB coach who was NEVER a coordinator or the son-in-law of Weeb. Mangini at least was a DC and had a pedigree of a winner. Dungee hadnt and still hasnt won anything yet, so Herm lovers cant claim that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Herm had the pedigree, he worked under Monty Kiffin, one of the best DCs in the NFL. I don't think that one year that Mangini was "DC" all of the sudden gives him more credibility than Herm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Kotite. Not even close. Herm had some victories here. And the team played for him. Kotite was just a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4HCrew Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 And Mangini's vast experience is what? was not even interviewed anywhere else for a head coaching job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaborJet Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 And Mangini's vast experience is what? was not even interviewed anywhere else for a head coaching job 4H I thought you were supportive of the Mangini hire? Anyway, the jury is out on him until we see results one way or the other. I would say Al Groh was a bit of a reach. he wasn't the first choice for coach the year he took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Lou Holtz...what a freaking joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthCoastJetsFan Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Charley Winner was previously a head coach in the NFL with the Cardinals, so I don't think he could be considered a big reach. I would say the biggest reach would be either Lou Holtz or Kotite. Holtz had no NFL experience at all, at least Kotite was a coordinator. I'd say Holtz was the biggest reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kotite was a head coach in Philadelphia. Holtz was a head coach in college. It's Hermie, hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kotite was a head coach in Philadelphia. Holtz was a head coach in college. It's Hermie, hands down. That was the problem with Holtz, the jackass thought he was still coaching college kids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kotite was a head coach in Philadelphia. Holtz was a head coach in college. It's Hermie, hands down. Hermie made the playoffs. What did Kotite do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 How could it possibly be Kotite? He had already been an NFL head coach, and one with a career winning record, no less. It's Herm, hands down. He was a ****ing DB coach, for ****'s sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 How could it possibly be Kotite? He had already been an NFL head coach, and one with a career winning record, no less. It's Herm, hands down. He was a ****ing DB coach, for ****'s sake. We might have different definitions. I say Kotite was a reach because: -Nobody else was interviews (as far as I can remember anyhow) -It was obvious that he sucked before he was hired The best thing the guy had going for him was that he sparred with Ali. He had the football smarts knocked right out of him. Herm was not the biggest reach IMP because although he left a lot to be desired, the team played for him. They won some games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kotite had some good years in Philly. Edwards was the biggest reach. How do you hire a guy who had never even been a coordinator? And to hire him over Fox and Lewis-who's teams were facing each other in the Super Bowl-was imbecilic. Hey Lia-can you explain that, other than the Commissioner bamboozling the new owner while Bradway crowed about his buddy from KC? And frankly, based on what we saw here for 5 years, I'm sure that in the interview Edwards was just wordy and full of superficial BS to for a time convince Johnson that Tags and Bradway were right. And were they all ever wrong. To his credit, Johnson learned a hard lesson-don't worry about what the NFL wants or thinks, worry about wins and losses and everything else takes care of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm was not the biggest reach IMP because although he left a lot to be desired, the team played for him. They won some games. This thread is about reaching for the hire, right? What do results have to do with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BwanaZulia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm had the pedigree, he worked under Monty Kiffin, one of the best DCs in the NFL. I don't think that one year that Mangini was "DC" all of the sudden gives him more credibility than Herm. I am sorry, you forget where you are.. BZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston Howley III Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm was a reach and Mangini is not a reach for same reasons: 1. Rookie HC's usually get their first job with a horrible team. 2. Any coach, rookie or prior experience, usually takes over a crappy team (Hence the firing or resignation of the predecessor). The situation the Jets are in right now lends itself well to a rookie HC. The situation in 2001 was not an ideal situation to put a rookie HC (and rookie GM for that matter) in. I know their are examples where a rookie HC took over a good team and won a SB (Seifert), but generally, inexperienced HC's should not take over winning programs. In 2001, Herm was the worst possible choice that was available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston Howley III Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm was not the biggest reach IMP because although he left a lot to be desired, the team played for him. They won some games. Unfortunately, they usually didn't start "playing for him" until late October, early November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm had the pedigree, he worked under Monty Kiffin, one of the best DCs in the NFL. I don't think that one year that Mangini was "DC" all of the sudden gives him more credibility than Herm. u r jokin right??????? u say Herm had more credibility than Mangini cause Kiffin. Kiffin vs Belly????????? Uh OK,, and on top of that , Mangini was a DC at least a year, ,Herm was always a DB coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kotite. Not even close. Herm had some victories here. And the team played for him. Kotite was just a joke. i said reach hires, not crap coaches,,, kotite was at least a HC in NFL, albeit a crappy one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 u r jokin right??????? u say Herm had more credibility than Mangini cause Kiffin. Kiffin vs Belly????????? Uh OK,, and on top of that , Mangini was a DC at least a year, ,Herm was always a DB coach No, I said Herm had AS MUCH credibility as Mangini. Sure, Mangini was a DC for a year but do you honestly believe that he was anything more than a figurehead with Belichick being the head coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 i said reach hires, not crap coaches,,, kotite was at least a HC in NFL, albeit a crappy one Alright...I see where you are going with this. But to me Kotitie was still a reach. Nobody else would have hired him even though he had prior coaching experience. The buck stops here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Herm was a reach and Mangini is not a reach for same reasons: 1. Rookie HC's usually get their first job with a horrible team. 2. Any coach, rookie or prior experience, usually takes over a crappy team (Hence the firing or resignation of the predecessor). The situation the Jets are in right now lends itself well to a rookie HC. The situation in 2001 was not an ideal situation to put a rookie HC (and rookie GM for that matter) in. I know their are examples where a rookie HC took over a good team and won a SB (Seifert), but generally, inexperienced HC's should not take over winning programs. In 2001, Herm was the worst possible choice that was available. Seifert wasn't even a reach at the time. Consider the 49ers situation. Bill Walsh retired after winning another superbowl. You have basically two choices: hire someone from within who is familiar with the team, or hire someone with head-coaching experience (elsewhere, and who probably got fired & that's why he's available) who will put his own stamp on the team and, in doing so, may alter a winning formula. So if they went with someone from within, a coordinator, they had a choice between - Mike Holmgren (OC of the 49ers for one season, 1988) - George Seifert (DC of the 49ers for the past 6 seasons under Walsh, from 1983-88). Seifert was not only part of the success of the Walsh 49ers; he was intimately familiar with the players he inherited, as well as the schemes that maximized and minimized their strenghs, and was familiar with the teams in their division they would play 6 games/year against. It was hardly the reach that Edwards was. Never was a coordinator or HC at any level of organized football. Didn't know very much about the players on the Jets other than the DB's under his watch surrendering a 20-yd TD from the Jets HB in 2000 to lose the game. He would go on to do what the 49ers specifically did NOT want to happen: take your solid core of players and put them in situations/schemes that did not suit their talents (Vinny & his shrimpy WR's and slow rookie TE in a WCO; a defense built from the ground up for the 3-4 and completely abandoning it for the 4-3 cover-2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Charley Winner was previously a head coach in the NFL with the Cardinals, so I don't think he could be considered a big reach. I would say the biggest reach would be either Lou Holtz or Kotite. Holtz had no NFL experience at all, at least Kotite was a coordinator. I'd say Holtz was the biggest reach. kotite was eagles HC before Jet job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Hermie made the playoffs. What did Kotite do? again,, the thread is REACH HIRES,, not crappiest coaches,, i agree Kotite is a doozy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 We might have different definitions. I say Kotite was a reach because: -Nobody else was interviews (as far as I can remember anyhow) -It was obvious that he sucked before he was hired The best thing the guy had going for him was that he sparred with Ali. He had the football smarts knocked right out of him. Herm was not the biggest reach IMP because although he left a lot to be desired, the team played for him. They won some games. Well, OK,, I see your point,, still would say Herm,,, Kotite a close 2nd, with Winner and the soninlaw connection comin in 3rd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernJet Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 No, I said Herm had AS MUCH credibility as Mangini. Sure, Mangini was a DC for a year but do you honestly believe that he was anything more than a figurehead with Belichick being the head coach? And do u think Herm did anythong more than get coffee for Kiffin AND Marinelli and Dungy. Those 3 defensive guys and Herm????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alk Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 And do u think Herm did anythong more than get coffee for Kiffin AND Marinelli and Dungy. Those 3 defensive guys and Herm????????? No I don't. I also think after Mangini nutted all over himself and Belichick took the reigns from him that was all he was doing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Nobody else would have hired him even though he had prior coaching experience. This part is true. Hess fired a coach who lost his last five games with the Jets and hired a coach who had lost his last seven games with Philadelphia. I was pissed at the time. I thought Carroll deserved another year. Mangini was a reach, too, btw. His year as DC makes him less of a reach than Hermie, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIGHT STALKER Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I would like to amend my first post in this thread when I named Lou Holtz as my "reach" HC. Upon further review, other than Weeb and Parcells, they have all been a reach...even Mangini and I'm all for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 This part is true. Hess fired a coach who lost his last five games with the Jets and hired a coach who had lost his last seven games with Philadelphia. I was pissed at the time. I thought Carroll deserved another year. Mangini was a reach, too, btw. His year as DC makes him less of a reach than Hermie, though. Agreed. Mangini is definitely a reach. But I am 100% behind it. I would rather take a shot at a guy like that instead of someone who has already failed elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preston Howley III Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Seifert wasn't even a reach at the time. Consider the 49ers situation. Bill Walsh retired after winning another superbowl. You have basically two choices: hire someone from within who is familiar with the team, or hire someone with head-coaching experience (elsewhere, and who probably got fired & that's why he's available) who will put his own stamp on the team and, in doing so, may alter a winning formula. So if they went with someone from within, a coordinator, they had a choice between - Mike Holmgren (OC of the 49ers for one season, 1988) - George Seifert (DC of the 49ers for the past 6 seasons under Walsh, from 1983-88). Seifert was not only part of the success of the Walsh 49ers; he was intimately familiar with the players he inherited, as well as the schemes that maximized and minimized their strenghs, and was familiar with the teams in their division they would play 6 games/year against. It was hardly the reach that Edwards was. Never was a coordinator or HC at any level of organized football. Didn't know very much about the players on the Jets other than the DB's under his watch surrendering a 20-yd TD from the Jets HB in 2000 to lose the game. He would go on to do what the 49ers specifically did NOT want to happen: take your solid core of players and put them in situations/schemes that did not suit their talents (Vinny & his shrimpy WR's and slow rookie TE in a WCO; a defense built from the ground up for the 3-4 and completely abandoning it for the 4-3 cover-2). Agreed. Herm was a total mistake, both in general, and specifically when you consider the roster and the fact that it was built from the ground up, designed for an offensive and defensive system that were polar opposites of what Herm wanted to do. Worse than that, Herm insisted on employing new systems that he didn't have a clue as to how to run them (although he liked to think that he knew what he was doing). Then, he delegated his authority to a DC who had even less experience running his Buc "cover who". It's unbelievable he lasted past 2003. It's too bad the shelf life on a pretty good team expired while Herm "learned while he earned". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BwanaZulia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 It's unbelievable he lasted past 2003. It's too bad the shelf life on a pretty good team expired while Herm "learned while he earned". Don't look now, but the Jets just hired a brand new HC who is going to do just that. Again, if Mangini gets us into the playoffs 3 out of the next 5 years I will be happy* BZ * Yes, yes, I do want them to go all the way, but you can't win the Super Bowl if you can't get to the playoffs. I do believe in the two season theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Agreed. Mangini is definitely a reach. But I am 100% behind it. I would rather take a shot at a guy like that instead of someone who has already failed elsewhere. Exactly. Who else was there really anyway? Mike Tice? Jim Haslett? Best argument you could make for someone other than Mangini this past year would be either of their now-departed coordinators. Not being a cuddly players-coach doesn't mean you have to be despised by the team; there is some middle ground & those two, while they have been successful coordinators, were probably thought to be too surly to be the HC. We will know soon enough if he's totally over his head. Just because he is smart doesn't mean he'll gameplan & adjust well. As much as I crucified Hackett in the past, I don't think he is or was a dumb guy. He just didn't think well under pressure or - more importantly - didn't get creative under pressure. They had a lot of creative plays in their book presumably (a play book that large had to have every conceivable play under the sun in it), but he didn't call the right plays at the right times. Being very smart is certainly a plus, but it's not everything. Think of the balls & brains balance: you can't have too much of one & not enough of the other. We'll see this year & next if Mangini has more BB in him or more Hackett in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Again, if Mangini gets us into the playoffs 3 out of the next 5 years I will be happy*. This is a ridiculous take. Hermie inherited a playoff-ready team. Mangini is getting one that has been hermanized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 This is a ridiculous take. Hermie inherited a playoff-ready team. Mangini is getting one that has been hermanized. I think the term is hermogenized, but your point is still a valid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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