Why do 80% or more of New York fans hate their QBs even though they're not that bad?

[green_blood]

I'm glad Mangini and Tanenbaum decided to bet the future of the Jets on a munchkin Jay Fiedler wannabe than Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler.

is this still a conversation, THE JETS NEEDED O-LINE! matt leinart hasnt been anything that great, cutler is good, BUT O LINE WAS NEEDED MORE! ughh.. i hate it when people have to look back and criticize last year's draft. the jets have two franchise o line men for many years to come and you are going to tell me that somehow if we drafted leinart or cutler, they wouldnt get smashed behind a ****ty old line filled with backups. come on, use your head, the mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[JetCane]

Strong work by Jetmo on this thread, and i love the sig, Dude.

Again, you assert one guy "has the skills" and one guy doesn't. Is it safe for me to assume that what you really mean is one guy has a "strong arm" and one guy doesn't? Because if all you have is a redundant, perpetual "arm strength" argument, then it's baseless. There are countless guys who had rocket launchers for throwing arms who came into the NFL who s*cked snoballs.

Correct. Clemens has a stronger arm, and that is a skill. But he lacks other skills to the extent that Chad has them, including selling the play action, being able to check off at the LOS and get into a better play, having the leadership that other guys on the team look up to, having chemistry with Coles, etc.

That is not to say thaat Clemens wont develop those skills, but he is still rAW. TO SAY THAT ONE GUY HAS THE SKILLS AND THE OTHER DOESNT IS JUST TUNNEL VISION.

[Barton]

Whats not to get? You think you are smarter than Eric Mangini.

I'm not saying Clemens is a sure bet - far from it. But I know for certain Chad isnt good enough and Clemens has the skills to be a superior QB. Whether he does succeed or not is anybodys guess.

You know for certain how? Based on what? First of all, throw the Herm error out the window. That team was so mismanaged that you can't use it as a yardstick to accurately measure the players abilities, specifically the QB. All you need to understand that in the end, Chad Pennington was able to start 17 games after two shoulder surgeries.

Based on last year, we know this:

Chad has a weak arm. Will it grow stronger as he gets further away from his last surgery? I doubt it. But what the coaching staff, the medical staff, and Chad himself can do to compensate for that, they are in the process of doing right now. Chad needs to improve his throwing motion, he doesn't capitalize on his lower body strength, do create more throwing power. Chad has played behind POROUS offensive lines. The coaching staff drafted a tackle and a center in rounds one and two, they brought in a FB Darian Barnes this year, they are trying to find TE's who can block, because they know they need to give Chad another second or two to plant his feet properly.

The coaching staff has also improved the running game, killing two birds with one stone signing Barnes. They also picked up a 1300 yards per season work horse in Thomas Jones.

The only thing left to do now is improve the run defense, and I have no doubt that the draft and TC is going to address that, as well. This will give Chad at least a series or two more a game to score points.

You keep saying the obvious "Chad has a weak arm". The difference between me and you, is you assume that a weak armed QB cannot win in the NFL, whereas I see in Chad Pennington a number of skills that overcompensate for his throwing power. The guy must be doing something right- He's overcome two shoulder surgeries, HC coaching changes, 4 or 5 OC's, and they all seem to think he's the guy.

I don't think we've seen all their is to see from Chad Pennington. You do. You want to write him off. And thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But please accept the fact that if Eric Mangini disagrees with you, you will have to wear an *sshat.

But he will get his shot regardless. He was a high draft pick, he will see the field.

Once again, pure speculation. I can't make an argument for or against, because there isn't a body of work to base anything on. I'm just curious, other than the fact that Clemens was a "high draft pick" what else is it about him that you think he should start and Pennington should ride the bench?

I'll always take my chances with a guy who has the skills to take us to the next level than a guy who simply does not.

Again, you assert one guy "has the skills" and one guy doesn't. Is it safe for me to assume that what you really mean is one guy has a "strong arm" and one guy doesn't? Because if all you have is a redundant, perpetual "arm strength" argument, then it's baseless. There are countless guys who had rocket launchers for throwing arms who came into the NFL who s*cked snoballs.

Where did I say I am smarter than Mangini?

I love how you said that if Mangini went with Clemens you'd be ok with it, but if Clemens flopped you'd attack me, but not Mangini. Interesting.

You need to read into Kellen Clemens. He has all of Chads intangibles + a strong arm. Many head coaches had Clemens rated as the smartest QB in the draft last year, also he scored a much higher wonderlic than Chad.

I think mostly you are underestimating the importance of arm strength - WE PLAY IN THE MEADOWLANDS. We dont play out west or in a dome, where Chads arm perhaps could get by with. No, we play in the meadowlands, and in the northeast, and Chad has simply not gotten it done.

You can write a f'n book about Chad Penningtons guts and determination to come back from 2 shoulder surgerys but the FACT is he is a shell of his former self as he has thrown 26TDs - 25 INTs since he tore his rotator cuff.

He's clearly not good enough to get us to where we want to go. Clemens might be able to get us to the next level. I'll take my chances with the QB who has the ability to get us there than the QB who does not.

Its not all about arm strength either. Chad goes into a shell once he throws an INT in a game, getting the dear in the headlights look about him, and we never come back from down 2 scores as evidenced by the Jets only coming back once in the last 3 years to win a game when down by 8 or more points - and that one come back was aganst the 2-14 49ers.

Also, aside from 2005, Chad has behind a top Oline his entire career + a HOF running back. Dont give me this sh#t like he hasnt been surrounded by talent and he's overcome the personnel around him. Please.

[JetCane]

I thought Cutler was rated the smartest QB of the crop, but whatever.

[Barton]

I thought Cutler was rated the smartest QB of the crop, but whatever.

Here's a story:

NY POST

STEAL OF THE DRAFT

JAWS HAD JETS CLEMENS RATED NO. 1 QB

By MARK CANNIZZARO

Ron Jaworski knows quarterbacks. He was a pretty good one in college, carved out a solid NFL career, and takes a lot of pride in his breakdown of QBs in his current role as an ESPN analyst.

Ask him about Kellen Clemens, the Jets' second-round pick out of Oregon, and you might be inclined to jump out of your shoes if you're a Jets fan.

"I watched every game of his college career, every throw he made, and based on game performance I had him rated No. 1 amongst the quarterbacks in this draft," Jaworski said of Clemens in a phone interview with The Post.

"I looked at one game and put my evaluation down and then looked at another and another, and as time went on I was blown away.

"One thing I heard about the guy is that he's only 6-1 5/8. To that my next question was, 'Did you see the guy play?' "

Clemens yesterday was unveiled in a Jets uniform for the first time, wearing No. 6 as the club began its weekend rookie mini-camp at Hofstra.

Asked about his aspirations about being the Jets' starting quarterback, Clemens said, "I'd love to someday, but right now I've got a lot of work to do before I can really go out and contribute the way the Jets need to me to."

Asked to describe himself as a quarterback, Clemens said, "A team leader sort of guy, a competitor. I try not to talk about me too much."

Naysayers are quick to point out that Clemens is only about a half-inch taller than Brooks Bollinger, the third-string QB who became the Jets' starter last year when Chad Pennington and Jay Fiedler were lost for the season in Week 3.

"It's not even close between [Clemens] and Bollinger and I don't mean to demean Brooks, because he can be a serviceable backup in this league," Jaworski said. "But Clemens is about 20 pounds heavier than Bollinger, has a much stronger arm, and has really strong legs and can break tackles. He doesn't go down easily."

Clemens was a more prolific passer in college than Bollinger, who was more a threat with his legs than his arm.

"Clemens has a quick release, a strong arm, can make multiple throws, does a great job processing information and finding the open receiver, has the anticipation you need," Jaworski said. "All of those things were there. The one negative I saw was I didn't think he was consistent enough with the deep ball.

"I saw nothing but upside. I had him at No. 1, ahead of [Matt] Leinart, [Jay] Cutler and [Vince] Young and everyone else until I saw the [NFL] Combine tapes and was concerned, because he wasn't healthy. That put up a little red flag."

Clemens, who missed the last several games ofthe 2005 season with a broken left fibula and wasn't 100 percent at the Combine, said yesterday that he's fine, recovered and ready to go.

"All the intangibles are there," Jaworski said. "I talked to a number of coaches that worked him out and put him to the chalkboard and they were blown away by him. Seven or eight NFL head coaches said, from the neck up, this guy is the best guy in the draft."

[Jet Moses]

This is gonna be too easy.

Where did I say I am smarter than Mangini?

I love how you said that if Mangini went with Clemens you'd be ok with it, but if Clemens flopped you'd attack me, but not Mangini. Interesting.

Don't even try that. Mangini isn't on record saying any of the trash that you are, so why would I attack him if he went with Clemens and Clemens flopped? You're the expert Barton, you're the one who's on record with your assertions that Clemens "has the skills". Now you want to turn around and drag other people into your BS. YOU are the one who is convinced that Chad cannot "get it done" based on nothing but "he has a weak arm" and Clemens "has a strong arm". When you can provide a link quoting Mangini saying these things, hollar at your boy.

You need to read into Kellen Clemens. He has all of Chads intangibles + a strong arm. Many head coaches had Clemens rated as the smartest QB in the draft last year, also he scored a much higher wonderlic than Chad.

Fair enough. We'll see what Mangini thinks.

I think mostly you are underestimating the importance of arm strength - WE PLAY IN THE MEADOWLANDS. We dont play out west or in a dome, where Chads arm perhaps could get by with. No, we play in the meadowlands, and in the northeast, and Chad has simply not gotten it done.

Bart, I'm tossing out the Herm error. That was a debacle. Fair is fair, lets wipe the slate clean, and even carrying over Chad's two shoulder surgeries from that era, based on last year, the team went 10-6 with a non-existent pass rush, run defense or run offense for better than 50% of the season. Let's see what Chad can do this year, when all of that is fixed, or at least upgraded significantly.

Or maybe we won't, maybe Mangini will see all those "Chad intangibles + the arm strength" in Clemens.

You can write a f'n book about Chad Penningtons guts and determination to come back from 2 shoulder surgerys but the FACT is he is a shell of his former self as he has thrown 26TDs - 25 INTs since he tore his rotator cuff.

Hey Bart, go look up Joe Namaths career TD/INT ratio.

He's clearly not good enough to get us to where we want to go. Clemens might be able to get us to the next level. I'll take my chances with the QB who has the ability to get us there than the QB who does not.

It's all coming clear now, Bart. Since Clemens might be able to get us to the next level, you assume carte blanche to trash Chad Pennington. And the cow jumped over the moon.

Its not all about arm strength either. Chad goes into a shell once he throws an INT in a game, getting the dear in the headlights look about him, and we never come back from down 2 scores as evidenced by the Jets only coming back once in the last 3 years to win a game when down by 8 or more points - and that one come back was aganst the 2-14 49ers.

Once again, using the Hackett/Edwards yardstick to measure Chads "intangibles". Just curious, you want to go on record stating Clemens won't get a "deer in the headlights" look about him when he throws his firs NFL INT?

Also, aside from 2005, Chad has behind a top Oline his entire career + a HOF running back. Dont give me this sh#t like he hasnt been surrounded by talent and he's overcome the personnel around him. Please.

The record is clear, the offensive line chronologically got worse in each successive season that Chad was the QB.

Don't give you sh#t? OK, what talent has he been surrounded (protected) by?

Doug Jolley? BJ Askew?

[Barton]

This is gonna be too easy.

Don't even try that. Mangini isn't on record saying any of the trash that you are, so why would I attack him if he went with Clemens and Clemens flopped? You're the expert Barton, you're the one who's on record with your assertions that Clemens "has the skills". Now you want to turn around and drag other people into your BS. YOU are the one who is convinced that Chad cannot "get it done" based on nothing but "he has a weak arm" and Clemens "has a strong arm". When you can provide a link quoting Mangini saying these things, hollar at your boy.

You need to read into Kellen Clemens. He has all of Chads intangibles + a strong arm. Many head coaches had Clemens rated as the smartest QB in the draft last year, also he scored a much higher wonderlic than Chad.

Fair enough. We'll see what Mangini thinks.

I think mostly you are underestimating the importance of arm strength - WE PLAY IN THE MEADOWLANDS. We dont play out west or in a dome, where Chads arm perhaps could get by with. No, we play in the meadowlands, and in the northeast, and Chad has simply not gotten it done.

Bart, I'm tossing out the Herm error. That was a debacle. Fair is fair, lets wipe the slate clean, and even carrying over Chad's two shoulder surgeries from that era, based on last year, the team went 10-6 with a non-existent pass rush, run defense or run offense for better than 50% of the season. Let's see what Chad can do this year, when all of that is fixed, or at least upgraded significantly.

Or maybe we won't, maybe Mangini will see all those "Chad intangibles + the arm strength" in Clemens.

You can write a f'n book about Chad Penningtons guts and determination to come back from 2 shoulder surgerys but the FACT is he is a shell of his former self as he has thrown 26TDs - 25 INTs since he tore his rotator cuff.

Hey Bart, go look up Joe Namaths career TD/INT ratio.

He's clearly not good enough to get us to where we want to go. Clemens might be able to get us to the next level. I'll take my chances with the QB who has the ability to get us there than the QB who does not.

It's all coming clear now, Bart. Since Clemens might be able to get us to the next level, you assume carte blanche to trash Chad Pennington. And the cow jumped over the moon.

Its not all about arm strength either. Chad goes into a shell once he throws an INT in a game, getting the dear in the headlights look about him, and we never come back from down 2 scores as evidenced by the Jets only coming back once in the last 3 years to win a game when down by 8 or more points - and that one come back was aganst the 2-14 49ers.

Once again, using the Hackett/Edwards yardstick to measure Chads "intangibles". Just curious, you want to go on record stating Clemens won't get a "deer in the headlights" look about him when he throws his firs NFL INT?

Also, aside from 2005, Chad has behind a top Oline his entire career + a HOF running back. Dont give me this sh#t like he hasnt been surrounded by talent and he's overcome the personnel around him. Please.

The record is clear, the offensive line chronologically got worse in each successive season that Chad was the QB.

Don't give you sh#t? OK, what talent has he been surrounded (protected) by?

Doug Jolley? BJ Askew?

You are facking hilarious JetMo. And a hypocrite too.

Here's what you said last page

If Mangini goes with Clemens this year, I have zero problem with that. Because I have complete faith in Mangini's talent evaluation and decision making.

But lets be clear on this, if and when Clemens does get his shot, and he bombs out like Bollinger or Browning Nagle?

Your *ss is grass, and I'm the lawn mower. I am going to ride you harder than anybody I ever did on the JI political board.

OK. So if Mangini puts Clemens in this year, you're cool with that because you trust Mangini. Buf if Clemens flops (his 1st yr no less) you would "ride me harder than anyone else". You COMPLETELY contradicited yourself here. If you trust Mangini like you say you do, you'd shut your yap if Clemens struggles in his 1st yr starting.

The 2002 - 2004 Oline Chad played with were among the tops in the leagues. I cannot believe you would go there and try and spin it otherwise. We had Randy Thomas, Mackenzie, Kevin Mawae, Jenkins, Ryan Young and Jason Fabini. The Jets Olines from 2002 - 2004 were widely know as a top flight group. ( I cannot believe you were trying to imply that they werent, unfackingbelievable)

I love how when Chad wins, he gets the credit. But when we lose its the Herm style "throw everyone else under the bus" except Chad Pennington.

Doug Jolley? BJ Askew? No smart guy, how about 2 probowl WRs (all made their probowls w/o Chad btw) in Santana Moss, Lavernous Coles, an excellent 3rd down WR in Wayne Chrebet, not to mention a decent TE and OHBTW a facking HOF RUNNING BACK! Also, JMac was the NFLs leader in YPC, widely known as 1 of the best downfield threats in the NFL (like Santana Moss was) but like Moss, JMac has done nothing under Chad......interesting.....

Did you seriously just imply Chad hasnt been surrounded by any talent during his tenure as a Jets QB? You're a frickin joke if you think that.

[JetCane]

Barton, i know all about Jaws' love for Clemens, but I think Cutler scored way higher on that test, and also played against MUCH tougher competition in the SEC.

[AVM]

this thread has turned into the jetnation debate part III, lol

[AVM]

Barton, i know all about Jaws' love for Clemens, but I think Cutler scored way higher on that test, and also played against MUCH tougher competition in the SEC.

and to be fair, Cutler had nothing else to help him on offense while at Vandy

[Barton]

Barton, i know all about Jaws' love for Clemens, but I think Cutler scored way higher on that test, and also played against MUCH tougher competition in the SEC.

There's not too many official wonderlic scores I can find.

This site has both Cutler and Clemens scoring a 26 on the wonderlic.

http://sportsyenta.blogspot.com/2007/02/bring-on-annual-wonderlic-fun.html

=========

I do remember reading that Clemens scored a 35 or 36 on his wonderlic though

By Todd McShay

Scouts Inc.

The official scores from the Wonderlic Tests taken at the combine were released. As usual, there were some interesting results. Texas QB Vince Young did indeed take the test twice. The league has been tight-lipped regarding his first score, but the higher score of his two attempts was a 15. Young's score was bad, but not the worst of this year's quarterback class. That honor goes to Virginia Tech's Marcus Vick, who scored an 11 on the test.

A perfect score is 50, and the highest score any player posted in this year's class was a 41 (Oklahoma DT Dusty Dvoracek). The lowest score of this year's class was an eight (Syracuse DE Kader Drame, Alabama ILB Freddie Roach, Louisville DT Montavious Stanley, N.C. State TE T.J. Williams and Oklahoma DC Chijioke Onyenegecha), and the average score of all the quarterbacks was a 24.6.

The Wonderlic Personnel Test (WPT) is a short-form intelligence test that measures players' ability to think on their feet, follow directions and make effective decisions under pressure. While Young and Vick exposed their weaknesses in those areas, other quarterbacks shined. Grambling's Bruce Eugene (41), Montana State's Travis Lulay (37), USC's Matt Leinart (35) and Oregon's Kellen Clemens (35) all posted impressive scores.

Prospects at other positions who excelled include Ohio State OC Nick Mangold (35), Tulsa TE/FB Garrett Mills (35), Oregon LB Keith Ellison (36), Cal-Poly State DE Chris Gocong (36), Cornell OL Kevin Boothe (37), Virginia WR Marques Hagans (37), Stanford DT Babatunde Oshinowo (37) and Boston College OT Jeremy Trueblood (37).

Others didn't fare so well, such as Penn State DC Alan Zemaitis (9), Marshall DC Chris Hawkins (10), Miami DE Javon Nanton (10), South Carolina DS Ko Simpson (10), Central Missouri State WR Delanie Walker (10), Syracuse DE James Wyche (10), LSU WR/RS Skyler Green (11), Tennessee DB Jason Allen (11), Clemson DE Charles Bennett (11), Abilene Christian DB Danieal Manning (12), Texas Tech DS Dwayne Slay (12), South Florida RB Andre Hall (13), Pittsburgh DC Josh Lay (13), UCLA TE Marcedes Lewis (13), Mississippi State RB Jerious Norwood (13) and Tarleton State RB Derrick Ross (13).

The wonderlic isnt the end all be all arguement, but I like what I heard from the Jaws article even more than Clemens high wonderlic scores.

Jaworski

"I talked to a number of coaches that worked him out and put him to the chalkboard and they were blown away by him. Seven or eight NFL head coaches said, from the neck up, this guy is the best guy in the draft."

As for Cutler, I would have loved the Jets to pick him at 4. I remember reading about the rumored trade up from 29 agreement we would have done if he would have been there at 11 for the ravens pick and I was ecstatic. He's gonna be a great QB in the NFL.

[JetCane]

There's not too many official wonderlic scores I can find.

This site has both Cutler and Clemens scoring a 26 on the wonderlic.

http://sportsyenta.blogspot.com/2007/02/bring-on-annual-wonderlic-fun.html

=========

I do remember reading that Clemens scored a 35 or 36 on his wonderlic though

The wonderlic isnt the end all be all arguement, but I like what I heard from the Jaws article even more than Clemens high wonderlic scores.

Keep in mind that Vandy is an excellent school, and their athletes only get schollies if they are exceptionally smart. I think Cutler is brighter than Clemens, and also saw much better defenses in college.

[Barton]

Keep in mind that Vandy is an excellent school, and their athletes only get schollies if they are exceptionally smart. I think Cutler is brighter than Clemens, and also saw much better defenses in college.

No doubt Cutler was a better prospect who faced tougher challenges in college than Clemens did. Although if Clemens didnt break his ankle his SR yr, he would have been a 1st rd pick I think.

I have no idea as to whether Clemens is a smarter QB or not, who knows though.

[JetCane]

No doubt Cutler was a better prospect who faced tougher challenges in college than Clemens did. Although if Clemens didnt break his ankle his SR yr, he would have been a 1st rd pick I think.

I have no idea as to whether Clemens is a smarter QB or not, who knows though.

Yep, Clemens probably would have been a first round pick if he stayed healthy. But missing most of his senior year cost him valuable experience as a QB.

I wonder if the Jets will take another broken leg guy- Michael Bush.

[124]

I cannot wait for November / December if Chad is still healthy & starting and has this team at another 10-6 run with a Wild Card or Divisional Round loss and we've got ecurb, this new guy under JetMo's name, Jetcane and others telling us how great Pennington is and that it was the offensive line, running backs, wide recievers, dline, linebackers, secondary, Ben Graham and Mike Nugent's fault that he throws for 200 yards a touchdown and 3 or 4 picks in the playoff game.

[ECURB]

I cannot wait for November / December if Chad is still healthy & starting and has this team at another 10-6 run with a Wild Card or Divisional Round loss and we've got ecurb, this new guy under JetMo's name, Jetcane and others telling us how great Pennington is and that it was the offensive line, running backs, wide recievers, dline, linebackers, secondary, Ben Graham and Mike Nugent's fault that he throws for 200 yards a touchdown and 3 or 4 picks in the playoff game.

Sort of like that Manning guy... you know the one who might be one of the great QB's ever... but could never get it done in the playoffs...

Also here is Chads stats from the playoff game in 06'...

300 Yards / 1 TD / 1 INT

Add into that an actual running game and run defense and we are right in that game, not to mention we would have never had that blown up screen pass if we had a guy that could run up the gut (T Jones).

Chads lone INT also came in the 4th quarter when the game was just about out of reach and we were hoping possibly for a freaking miracle...

SO you can sit and bitch and moan all you want, but me and the others who know Chad can win will be sitting there watching them win in the playoffs when Chad throws for 300 yards and a TD and Thomas Jones rushes for 100 yards and a couple scores...

Chad did not lose that game for us he had 300 yards and a TD...

[AVM]

Sort of like that Manning guy... you know the one who might be one of the great QB's ever... but could never get it done in the playoffs...

Owned

[JetCane]

I cannot wait for November / December if Chad is still healthy & starting and has this team at another 10-6 run with a Wild Card or Divisional Round loss and we've got ecurb, this new guy under JetMo's name, Jetcane and others telling us how great Pennington is and that it was the offensive line, running backs, wide recievers, dline, linebackers, secondary, Ben Graham and Mike Nugent's fault that he throws for 200 yards a touchdown and 3 or 4 picks in the playoff game.

I never said he is great, so dont put words in my mouth.

He is a second tier QB, but the organization has not signed a QB who has proven to be better than him. Your hate should be directed at the FO, not CP.

I happen to agree with mangini that he was the best option at QB last year, and that he should be the #1 QB heading into TC.

[Jet Moses]

You are facking hilarious JetMo. And a hypocrite too.

Here's what you said last page

OK. So if Mangini puts Clemens in this year, you're cool with that because you trust Mangini. Buf if Clemens flops (his 1st yr no less) you would "ride me harder than anyone else". You COMPLETELY contradicited yourself here. If you trust Mangini like you say you do, you'd shut your yap if Clemens struggles in his 1st yr starting.

The 2002 - 2004 Oline Chad played with were among the tops in the leagues. I cannot believe you would go there and try and spin it otherwise. We had Randy Thomas, Mackenzie, Kevin Mawae, Jenkins, Ryan Young and Jason Fabini. The Jets Olines from 2002 - 2004 were widely know as a top flight group. ( I cannot believe you were trying to imply that they werent, unfackingbelievable)

I love how when Chad wins, he gets the credit. But when we lose its the Herm style "throw everyone else under the bus" except Chad Pennington.

Doug Jolley? BJ Askew? No smart guy, how about 2 probowl WRs (all made their probowls w/o Chad btw) in Santana Moss, Lavernous Coles, an excellent 3rd down WR in Wayne Chrebet, not to mention a decent TE and OHBTW a facking HOF RUNNING BACK! Also, JMac was the NFLs leader in YPC, widely known as 1 of the best downfield threats in the NFL (like Santana Moss was) but like Moss, JMac has done nothing under Chad......interesting.....

Did you seriously just imply Chad hasnt been surrounded by any talent during his tenure as a Jets QB? You're a frickin joke if you think that.

Alrighty then!

Time to take the gloves off, because I'm through toying with your petulant, silly little #ss.

First things first- IF Mangini starts Clemens, and benches Pennington, I know that it will be an educated decision. Does that mean Clemens will succeed? No, but I will have had no reason to second guess Mangini's decision. YOU on the other hand, have gone on record TRASHING Pennington and talking up Clemens because he "has a strong arm" or some such praddle.

Barty, you've long since reached puberty, just be a man, and stand behind what you said. Don't keep rationalizing it with "I never said this" and "I never said that". Just own up to it, and make yourself clear:

YOU think that the Jets have a better shot of getting to the next level with Clemens than wih Pennington. Terrific, end of story except for the the fact that all season long you trashed Pennington and got sassy about it with people who didn't.

I don't second guess the coaches. I never second guessed Herm, and I'm not second guessing Mangini. If they do something I like, I go on record and agree with it. If they do something I don't like, I go on record stating I dont agree with it. What I DON'T DO, Barty, is play Monday morning QB, or try to drag other people into my BS.

Notice I'm not having this conversation with anybody else, I'm having it specifically with you. Why is that? Can anybody raise their hand and tell me? No? I'll tell you why, because even though their are many Jet fans and posters on this board who want a new QB, they state it with DIGNITY AND DIPLOMACY, NOT ARROGANCE AND BELIGERENCE.

All season long, all we heard from you is how Pennington sucks and Clemens should be starting (or was it Ramsey there for a while). You're already starting your BS campaign for this season.

I'm gonna suport whatever QB the coaching staff chooses, and I have confidence that they will make the right decision. I don't second guess them like you do. I don't play monday morning QB, like you do.

Coaches have to make decisions, and when they do, it's their responsibility to make an informed decision. Does it always work out? No. So if he goes with Clemens, and Clemens flops, why should I attack him? What does that have to do with you being an annoying and belligerent know it all, talking sht about "Clemens is better than Pennington" in every f*cking post since the guy got drafted? You're the only one who will be accountable for it.

In the end, Barty, you're just not that important. I know that Chad has limitations, and I really hope that if a better QB is on the roster that gives us a better shot to win, I'm all for that happening. Believe me, I don't want to see Clemens get a shot and then fail, just so I can rip you a new one.

[Irish Jet]

.....who f'n knows they're still in high school.....(edit, 1 kids going to south carolina BTW)

You're missing the point though....Chads arm BY NFL STANDARDS, is weak. Thats all that matters. I dont give a flying f$&^ if his arm is 20x stronger than mine (it definetly isnt I can guarantee you that) or anyone elses, the point is BY NFL STANDARDS, his arm is a fricking running joke around the league.

Its pathetic to watch a defender turn around, close on the ball and knock it down because Chad couldnt zip it in there quick enough.

Arm strength is a very overrated attribute. Mike vick has a laser arm yet look at him. chad has already shown he can overcome his lack of zip with a great short passing game and great accuracy. Chad will prove you wrong next year, I GAURANTEE IT!!!!!!

[JetCane]

Alrighty then!

Time to take the gloves off, because I'm through toying with your petulant, silly little #ss.

First things first- IF Mangini starts Clemens, and benches Pennington, I know that it will be an educated decision. Does that mean Clemens will succeed? No, but I will have had no reason to second guess Mangini's decision. YOU on the other hand, have gone on record TRASHING Pennington and talking up Clemens because he "has a strong arm" or some such praddle.

Barty, you've long since reached puberty, just be a man, and stand behind what you said. Don't keep rationalizing it with "I never said this" and "I never said that". Just own up to it, and make yourself clear:

YOU think that the Jets have a better shot of getting to the next level with Clemens than wih Pennington. Terrific, end of story except for the the fact that all season long you trashed Pennington and got sassy about it with people who didn't.

I don't second guess the coaches. I never second guessed Herm, and I'm not second guessing Mangini. If they do something I like, I go on record and agree with it. If they do something I don't like, I go on record stating I dont agree with it. What I DON'T DO, Barty, is play Monday morning QB, or try to drag other people into my BS.

Notice I'm not having this conversation with anybody else, I'm having it specifically with you. Why is that? Can anybody raise their hand and tell me? No? I'll tell you why, because even though their are many Jet fans and posters on this board who want a new QB, they state it with DIGNITY AND DIPLOMACY, NOT ARROGANCE AND BELIGERENCE.

All season long, all we heard from you is how Pennington sucks and Clemens should be starting (or was it Ramsey there for a while). You're already starting your BS campaign for this season.

I'm gonna suport whatever QB the coaching staff chooses, and I have confidence that they will make the right decision. I don't second guess them like you do. I don't play monday morning QB, like you do.

Coaches have to make decisions, and when they do, it's their responsibility to make an informed decision. Does it always work out? No. So if he goes with Clemens, and Clemens flops, why should I attack him? What does that have to do with you being an annoying and belligerent know it all, talking sht about "Clemens is better than Pennington" in every f*cking post since the guy got drafted? You're the only one who will be accountable for it.

In the end, Barty, you're just not that important. I know that Chad has limitations, and I really hope that if a better QB is on the roster that gives us a better shot to win, I'm all for that happening. Believe me, I don't want to see Clemens get a shot and then fail, just so I can rip you a new one.

Are you listening, 124?

[MTJ06]

Also here is Chads stats from the playoff game in 06'...

300 Yards / 1 TD / 1 INT

Here is another stat from the playoff game, the Jets offense scored 6 points in the last 44:45 of the game and Penny handed the Patsies 10.

"not to mention we would have never had that blown up screen pass if we had a guy that could run up the gut (T Jones)"

Can you prove that to me?????

[124]

Sort of like that Manning guy... you know the one who might be one of the great QB's ever... but could never get it done in the playoffs...

Also here is Chads stats from the playoff game in 06'...

300 Yards / 1 TD / 1 INT

Add into that an actual running game and run defense and we are right in that game, not to mention we would have never had that blown up screen pass if we had a guy that could run up the gut (T Jones).

Chads lone INT also came in the 4th quarter when the game was just about out of reach and we were hoping possibly for a freaking miracle...

SO you can sit and bitch and moan all you want, but me and the others who know Chad can win will be sitting there watching them win in the playoffs when Chad throws for 300 yards and a TD and Thomas Jones rushes for 100 yards and a couple scores...

Chad did not lose that game for us he had 300 yards and a TD...

Wow 300 yards... 75 coming on a play were Jerricho Cotchery got 60 of the 70 and another 75 of them coming when the score was 30-16 / 37-16 late in the 4th quarter.

Chad Pennington doesn't have the talent of Peyton Manning. Chad Pennington has always buckled in big games and has always buckled in the playoffs minus Indy 02 and one pass in San Diego in 04. Chad Pennington is injury proned and cannot carry a team to a championship. Do not even try to compare these Quarterbacks. Peyton Manning was routinely bounced from the playoffs by Tom Brady. Chad Pennington is bounced by Brady once, but other times by Rich Gannon and Ben Roethlisberger.

[ECURB]

Wow 300 yards... 75 coming on a play were Jerricho Cotchery got 60 of the 70 and another 75 of them coming when the score was 30-16 / 37-16 late in the 4th quarter.

IT takes the QB to make those YAC happen, you cant take that away form him....

Fine take away the 75 yards at the end of the game, but then also take away the INT if you want to play that game...

You get 225 yards and 1 TD... still very good for the playoffs especially AT NE...

[124]

IT takes the QB to make those YAC happen, you cant take that away form him....

Fine take away the 75 yards at the end of the game, but then also take away the INT if you want to play that game...

You get 225 yards and 1 TD... still very good for the playoffs especially AT NE...

Why should I take away an INT that mattered when the 75 yards with 6 minutes or less left down by 21 doesn't matter? The INT sealed the deal, the 75 yards he got in the final 6 minutes padded the stats. Without Cotchery running his ass off through a slow New England secondary it's more like this:

150, INT.

[ECURB]

Why should I take away an INT that mattered when the 75 yards with 6 minutes or less left down by 21 doesn't matter? The INT sealed the deal, the 75 yards he got in the final 6 minutes padded the stats. Without Cotchery running his ass off through a slow New England secondary it's more like this:

150, INT.

Bro now your just being picky and trying to fit your needs...

Chad was picked off with about 4 minutes left, so if you want to take away the 75 yards at the end, you need to take that INT away as well. You say the 75 yards didnt matter when we were down by 14 in the 4thQ but the INT did??? WTF?

You cant take away the Cotch catch, he ran his route and Chad got him the ball in the right spot to be able to break one free.... you cant just take away a TD from Chad becuase his receiver did well, Chad also got him the ball good.

[ECURB]

Also just wanted to mention that Chad hrew that pass to Cotch on the 2nd play of the 2nd half and was running a quick no huddle shotgun offense on that play...

[MTJ06]

Also just wanted to mention that Chad hrew that pass to Cotch on the 2nd play of the 2nd half and was running a quick no huddle shotgun offense on that play...

that was the second play of the second quarter, and from that point on we scored 6 points for the rest of the game

[green_blood]

Wow 300 yards... 75 coming on a play were Jerricho Cotchery got 60 of the 70 and another 75 of them coming when the score was 30-16 / 37-16 late in the 4th quarter.

Chad Pennington doesn't have the talent of Peyton Manning. Chad Pennington has always buckled in big games and has always buckled in the playoffs minus Indy 02 and one pass in San Diego in 04. Chad Pennington is injury proned and cannot carry a team to a championship. Do not even try to compare these Quarterbacks. Peyton Manning was routinely bounced from the playoffs by Tom Brady. Chad Pennington is bounced by Brady once, but other times by Rich Gannon and Ben Roethlisberger.

and kellen clemens does?

[Barton]

Alrighty then!

Time to take the gloves off, because I'm through toying with your petulant, silly little #ss.

First things first- IF Mangini starts Clemens, and benches Pennington, I know that it will be an educated decision. Does that mean Clemens will succeed? No, but I will have had no reason to second guess Mangini's decision. YOU on the other hand, have gone on record TRASHING Pennington and talking up Clemens because he "has a strong arm" or some such praddle.

Barty, you've long since reached puberty, just be a man, and stand behind what you said. Don't keep rationalizing it with "I never said this" and "I never said that". Just own up to it, and make yourself clear:

YOU think that the Jets have a better shot of getting to the next level with Clemens than wih Pennington. Terrific, end of story except for the the fact that all season long you trashed Pennington and got sassy about it with people who didn't.

I don't second guess the coaches. I never second guessed Herm, and I'm not second guessing Mangini. If they do something I like, I go on record and agree with it. If they do something I don't like, I go on record stating I dont agree with it. What I DON'T DO, Barty, is play Monday morning QB, or try to drag other people into my BS.

Notice I'm not having this conversation with anybody else, I'm having it specifically with you. Why is that? Can anybody raise their hand and tell me? No? I'll tell you why, because even though their are many Jet fans and posters on this board who want a new QB, they state it with DIGNITY AND DIPLOMACY, NOT ARROGANCE AND BELIGERENCE.

All season long, all we heard from you is how Pennington sucks and Clemens should be starting (or was it Ramsey there for a while). You're already starting your BS campaign for this season.

I'm gonna suport whatever QB the coaching staff chooses, and I have confidence that they will make the right decision. I don't second guess them like you do. I don't play monday morning QB, like you do.

Coaches have to make decisions, and when they do, it's their responsibility to make an informed decision. Does it always work out? No. So if he goes with Clemens, and Clemens flops, why should I attack him? What does that have to do with you being an annoying and belligerent know it all, talking sht about "Clemens is better than Pennington" in every f*cking post since the guy got drafted? You're the only one who will be accountable for it.

In the end, Barty, you're just not that important. I know that Chad has limitations, and I really hope that if a better QB is on the roster that gives us a better shot to win, I'm all for that happening. Believe me, I don't want to see Clemens get a shot and then fail, just so I can rip you a new one.

Of course I feel the Jets have a better chance at getting to the next level with Clemens than Pennington because Pennington has a 0% chance of getting the Jets to the next level.

Clemens might flop, he might succeed. Its anybodys guess. But I want to see him start because he has the chance to get us to the next level, as small as it might be, its better than Penningtons chances.

Clemens might very well be worse than Chad, its 50/50. But the thing you dont understand about my view on this subject is that I feel Chad has NO CHANCE of getting the Jets to the Super Bowl. His limitations are simply too much too overcome. I mean, has there ever been another offense in the history of the NFL that makes opposing defenses stack the box to defend the pass?? Chads arm limitations are too much to overcome in the playoffs. By stacking the box they take away any chance of running the ball as well as Penningtons passin game of 5 yard slants, curls, comebacks and dumpoffs.

So, of course I'll take my chances with Clemens because when you got no chances with your current option you got nothing to lose.

Its very similar to the Cutler/Plummer situation last year. Fans and in this case, the HC felt Plummer was not good enough to get the Broncos to the superbowl. So he benched Plummer and put in the rookie who has the skills to get them to the next level in a few years. Whether Cutler does get them to the SB or not is anybodys guess, but it was clear Plummer was not the guy to get them there and that Cutler might be able to.

Now if you are gonna bash me if Clemens has a poor 1st yr starting, go right ahead. But I have always said the Jets will make their run in 2009, 2010 and beyond when Clemens is ready to get to the next level after a couple yrs starting (if he pans out). Dont expect Clemens to light the world on fire his 1st yr starting.

Dont be blinded by the 10-6 record last year. That was all due to great coaching and an easy easy schedule. Chads 17 touchdowns and 20 turnovers didnt get the Jets to the playoffs. Sorry but thats true.

[Barton]

ecurb2369

Sort of like that Manning guy... you know the one who might be one of the great QB's ever... but could never get it done in the playoffs...

Dont go comparing Peyton Manning who's one of the greatest regular season QBs (before his SB victory) to Chad freaking Pennington.

Peyton Manning since 2003:

16,968 thousand passing yards

137 touchdowns

39 interceptions

Chad Pennington since 2003:

8,694 passing yards

48 Touchdowns

40 Interceptions

Peyton Manning in 2004, had more touchdowns (49) than Chad Pennington has had in the last 4 years!

Yeah, nice comparison ecurb!

[GimmeShelter]

There's a big difference Barton with the Denver change of QB's. The players and coaches were scratching their heads as to why Cutler was not starting due to how much better he looked in practice than Plummer.

You've never heard that about our QB situation. Sure you read where the staff felt Clemens looked better as the year went on compared to a bum like Ramsey or his TC and Buffalo performances. You never read though that he looked better than Pennington.

[Barton]

There's a big difference Barton with the Denver change of QB's. The players and coaches were scratching their heads as to why Cutler was not starting due to how much better he looked in practice than Plummer.

You've never heard that about our QB situation. Sure you read where the staff felt Clemens looked better as the year went on compared to a bum like Ramsey or his TC and Buffalo performances. You never read though that he looked better than Pennington.

True. But the move was still based on the HC going "This guy cant get us to the SB (Plummer)", so lets put in "The kid who has the skills to get us over the hump (Cutler)"

[GimmeShelter]

True. But the move was still based on the HC going "This guy cant get us to the SB (Plummer)", so lets put in "The kid who has the skills to get us over the hump (Cutler)"

Correct and our HC has not seen fit to do the same despite your protests.

When/if he does then we all back Clemens but in the mean time going from Chad's a MVP candidate to bashing him serves no purpose. It's a good one or two time thread or debate. Jacking every thread in that direction however is TX like.

[Barton]

Correct and our HC has not seen fit to do the same despite your protests.

When/if he does then we all back Clemens but in the mean time going from Chad's a MVP candidate to bashing him serves no purpose. It's a good one or two time thread or debate. Jacking every thread in that direction however is TX like.

Well I didnt start this thread and the thread is all about Chad Pennington, so yea.......

And Pennington was only an MVP candidate if he continued his play from the titans game, duh, but he didnt did he?