Trouble in BBQtown

[joewilly]

for the 1st time in many many years I can now actually enjoy watching the jets play. Not loaded with talent but knowing the coaching staff is utilizing & getting the best out of the players collectively.

that just wasn't the case under herm. I sat their predicting plays & 2nd guessing everything that happened

[johnny green balls]

for the 1st time in many many years I can now actually enjoy watching the jets play. Not loaded with talent but knowing the coaching staff is utilizing & getting the best out of the players collectively.

that just wasn't the case under herm. I sat their predicting plays & 2nd guessing everything that happened

very good point, joe. games are exciting and unpredictable now. whenever there is a call on the field mangini reacts immediately because he knows the impact. herm sat there with his DUUHHHHH face until the ref or dick curl explained what was happening to him.

[SouthernJet]

herm was the bill guthridge of the NYJ. he made it to 2 final four appearances with dean smith's teams and then left the program decimated and in disarray with horrible recruits.

had dean stayed around another 3 years, we would've had another champ banner or two hanging in the rafters of the dean dome. that team made it to the final four not because of guthridge, but in spite of him just like the jets and herm. had parcells been there, we would've found even more success.

I think GreenBeans will agree that this deserves a POTW nominee..

Perfect analogy, , inheritance, leaving no groceries etc...

[nyjunc]

herm was the bill guthridge of the NYJ. he made it to 2 final four appearances with dean smith's teams and then left the program decimated and in disarray with horrible recruits.

had dean stayed around another 3 years, we would've had another champ banner or two hanging in the rafters of the dean dome. that team made it to the final four not because of guthridge, but in spite of him just like the jets and herm. had parcells been there, we would've found even more success.

Dean had alot of great teams and did only ome away w/ 2 titles so to assume we would have won more might be a stretch. Gut did hurt carolina basketball recruting wise but as a coach he did a good job.

dean left and parcells left but both left for different reasons. dean left b/c he knew he was leaving th program in great shape and he was leaving Gut w/ a Championhip caliber team while parcells blted b/c he din't think he could win w/ this team. obviously I didn't want BP to leave but he walked out on us along w/Belichick and goh b/c none of them thought we had he makings of a Champion.

[nyjunc]

50-52 total in the regular season and playoffs. That's what trumps every argument against him? Wow, I hope you are a manager and I get to work for you someday. It doesn't take much to please you apparantly.

So for you the reg season is more important than postseason? Vermeil coached at KC from '01-'05 while Herm cooached w/us from '01-'05. Herm's reg season record was 39-41 while Vermeil's record was 44-36 BUT herm guided the Jets to 3 postseasos and won 2 playoff games while vereil guided KC to ONE PO appearance and ZERO playoff wins. Which coach did the better job?

[nyjunc]

very good point, joe. games are exciting and unpredictable now. whenever there is a call on the field mangini reacts immediately because he knows the impact. herm sat there with his DUUHHHHH face until the ref or dick curl explained what was happening to him.

I love Mangini and I cam glad he's here but b/c the Jets were more exciting it made his boneheaded decisons against Indyand Chi ok? he cost us 2 great chances by going n 4th an G from the 3 against Indy and kicking the OSK against Chi.

[nyjunc]

I think GreenBeans will agree that this deserves a POTW nominee..

Perfect analogy, , inheritance, leaving no groceries etc...

It was a great try but again dean left a great squad, BP left b/c he didn't think he could win w/ that team AND Herm wasn't the GM but his regime left alot of talent for Mangini.

[EM31]

It was a great try but again dean left a great squad, BP left b/c he didn't think he could win w/ that team AND Herm wasn't the GM but his regime left alot of talent for Mangini.

Parcells inherited very good talent plus outstanding draft position from Kotite. He also inherited the very low expectations that went along with being the coach of a last place team. Herm inherited very decent (or better) talent from Parcells via Groh and he then presided over a a five year systematic deconstruction of that talent base. The main claims to fame now from the Herm era are players who he had buried on the bench and now turn out to be better than that.

[nyjunc]

Parcells inherited very good talent plus outstanding draft position from Kotite. He also inherited the very low expectations that went along with being the coach of a last place team. Herm inherited very decent (or better) talent from Parcells via Groh and he then presided over a a five year systematic deconstruction of that talent base. The main claims to fame now from the Herm era are players who he had buried on the bench and now turn out to be better than that.

A " year systematic destruction of that talent"? Did you watch the jets play last year? That regime re-signed Chad, Ellis, traded for Coles, McCareins, signed kendall, barton, Moore, Barrett, drafed Vilma, Houston, Cotchery, Baker, Robertson, Thomas, Hobson, Rhodes, Coleman,... In case you didn't realizeit we had good talent last year.

[SouthernJet]

Here is what I want for Herm:

[EM31]

A " year systematic destruction of that talent"? Did you watch the jets play last year? That regime re-signed Chad, Ellis, traded for Coles, McCareins, signed kendall, barton, Moore, Barrett, drafed Vilma, Houston, Cotchery, Baker, Robertson, Thomas, Hobson, Rhodes, Coleman,... In case you didn't realizeit we had good talent last year.

Chad, (Buried by Herm. Only got a sniff in the starting line up after season ending injury to Vinny. Revisionist historians try to paint a false picture of Herm going to Chad by choice. Not true, Chad was being thrown under the bus by the Herm spin machine before the injury to VT. What a talent evaluator).

Ellis, (Inherited and bequethed first round pick. A wash. I guess in your book Herm gets credit for not releasing the guy. Whoop de damn doo)

traded for Coles, (Allowed Coles to leave for NOTHING and then got him back for our First rounder who went on to the pro bowl for the Redskins. Amazing what a good coach can do gfor your career isn't it? Are out of your freakin' mind to portray that as Herm building a talent base???)

McCareins, (hehehehe - OK, you have hit the bottom of the barrel here. Overpaying for JMAC and then misusing him... Guilty as charged. The turd was bequeathed to the next administration. Mighty white of Herm there)

signed kendall, (Good pickup... Mawae earned his bonus that day).

barton, Moore, Barrett, (All JAG's or whom we paid or overpaid the going market rate)

drafed

Vilma, (Overrated high first round pick. Am I the only one who get a bit queasy when their middle linebacker is so consistently steam-rollered by even medium sized running backs?).

Houston, (Buried by Herm - blossomed after Herm had zero choice. Only saw any time after Herm had completely gone through his entire bench of stiffs)

Cotchery, (Buried by Herm - Buried deep)

Baker, (Buried by Herm... Only got time after umpteen others were brought in ahead of him and failed. Oh look... we might have TE under contract already... how about that?!)

Robertson, (The franchise make or break move has panned out very poorly. Perhaps he is salvageable but I doubt it).

Thomas, (Buried for the entire time under Herm. Basically labeled a "bust" until year-5 - Really blossomed last year under Mangini. Thomas states that the biggest difference in 2006 was how much he learned from the coaches. Teaching... coaches... Coaching... teaches... amazing how that stuff works eh?)

Hobson, (Buried by Herm for most of his time. I think Lewis, Jones and Cowart were clinically dead before Hobson got a sniff)

Rhodes, (Great pickup in round-5. Even idiot Herm could not Bury this guy).

Coleman, (Another late round find. Lioke many others, Got his chance because of injury and not becuase Herm was taking notice of what was happening on the practice field. Probably not as good as we were all thinking that first year).

[SouthernJet]

Hes been gone for over a year now, you people are obsessed! I want to stick it to Herm as much as any of you do on December 30th but enough is enough with a new thread or 2 every single week on the guy.

I will not stop bashing that MFer until he is selling used cars in Omaha.

hahaha,,

POTW nominee

[johnny green balls]

I will not stop bashing that MFer until he is selling used cars in Omaha.

[Green DNA]

barton (All JAG's or whom we paid or overpaid the going market rate)

Vilma, (Overrated high first round pick. Am I the only one who get a bit queasy when their middle linebacker is so consistently steam-rollered by even medium sized running backs?).

Have no argument with most of what you posted. I disagree on Barton, who I still think is a pretty good linebacker and would keep him at a lower price and I absolutely disagree with Vilma. In the 4-3 Vilma is an excellent sideline to sideline tackling machine as he proved prior to last year. In the 3-4 he was exposed because his size was smaller than the prototypical 3-4 linebacker.

[Boozer76]

So for you the reg season is more important than postseason? Vermeil coached at KC from '01-'05 while Herm cooached w/us from '01-'05. Herm's reg season record was 39-41 while Vermeil's record was 44-36 BUT herm guided the Jets to 3 postseasos and won 2 playoff games while vereil guided KC to ONE PO appearance and ZERO playoff wins. Which coach did the better job?

He's 2-4 in postseason games. Am I supposed to do a cartwheel for that?

[EM31]

Have no argument with most of what you posted. I disagree on Barton, who I still think is a pretty good linebacker and would keep him at a lower price and I absolutely disagree with Vilma. In the 4-3 Vilma is an excellent sideline to sideline tackling machine as he proved prior to last year. In the 3-4 he was exposed because his size was smaller than the prototypical 3-4 linebacker.

Barton was OK. Probably better than I made him sound. Vilma can get there no doubt he can get there. He just gets flattened by the runner to often for my taste. MAybe at another position....

[Bugg]

I love Mangini and I cam glad he's here but b/c the Jets were more exciting it made his boneheaded decisons against Indyand Chi ok? he cost us 2 great chances by going n 4th an G from the 3 against Indy and kicking the OSK against Chi.

Yes, but those decisions were borne of daring to be great, and only after carefully consideringt the cost benefit. Those teams both wound up in the Super Bowl. Mangini, while he couldn't have known that at both times, recognized that to beat them wasn't going to be easy playing it straight up. They didn't work, but such decisions would never even be considered under Edwards.

[Sperm Edwards]

I'd still like anyone to rationalize how a HC in his 5th season would need to consult with his offensive coordinator as to whether his team should accept or decline a penalty that would give the Jets a first down.

[nyjunc]

Chad, (Buried by Herm. Only got a sniff in the starting line up after season ending injury to Vinny. Revisionist historians try to paint a false picture of Herm going to Chad by choice. Not true, Chad was being thrown under the bus by the Herm spin machine before the injury to VT. What a talent evaluator).

Ellis, (Inherited and bequethed first round pick. A wash. I guess in your book Herm gets credit for not releasing the guy. Whoop de damn doo)

traded for Coles, (Allowed Coles to leave for NOTHING and then got him back for our First rounder who went on to the pro bowl for the Redskins. Amazing what a good coach can do gfor your career isn't it? Are out of your freakin' mind to portray that as Herm building a talent base???)

McCareins, (hehehehe - OK, you have hit the bottom of the barrel here. Overpaying for JMAC and then misusing him... Guilty as charged. The turd was bequeathed to the next administration. Mighty white of Herm there)

signed kendall, (Good pickup... Mawae earned his bonus that day).

barton, Moore, Barrett, (All JAG's or whom we paid or overpaid the going market rate)

drafed

Vilma, (Overrated high first round pick. Am I the only one who get a bit queasy when their middle linebacker is so consistently steam-rollered by even medium sized running backs?).

Houston, (Buried by Herm - blossomed after Herm had zero choice. Only saw any time after Herm had completely gone through his entire bench of stiffs)

Cotchery, (Buried by Herm - Buried deep)

Baker, (Buried by Herm... Only got time after umpteen others were brought in ahead of him and failed. Oh look... we might have TE under contract already... how about that?!)

Robertson, (The franchise make or break move has panned out very poorly. Perhaps he is salvageable but I doubt it).

Thomas, (Buried for the entire time under Herm. Basically labeled a "bust" until year-5 - Really blossomed last year under Mangini. Thomas states that the biggest difference in 2006 was how much he learned from the coaches. Teaching... coaches... Coaching... teaches... amazing how that stuff works eh?)

Hobson, (Buried by Herm for most of his time. I think Lewis, Jones and Cowart were clinically dead before Hobson got a sniff)

Rhodes, (Great pickup in round-5. Even idiot Herm could not Bury this guy).

Coleman, (Another late round find. Lioke many others, Got his chance because of injury and not becuase Herm was taking notice of what was happening on the practice field. Probably not as good as we were all thinking that first year).

Chad was buried by Herm? Chad cae in as a rookie in '00 and was hurt in preseason. obviously he wasn't playing but he missed most of the year anyway. In '01 came year 2 and another new offensive system and Vinny led us to 10 wins. The start of '02 was the earliest he was going to start but Vinny had led us to 10 wins and thankfully Chad didn't start week 1 b/c our early problems were not b/c of the QB and the start would have been the same and everyone would have been all over Chad as the reason which could have done alot of mental damage.

They re-signed Ellis, they could ahve re-signed Abe and let Ellis go. Don't you think they made the right call?

Actually we got a 1st round pick for Coles so that isn't nothing and Wash severely overpaid him. We replaced him fairly easily and were closer to the title game in '04 than we were w/ hm in '02.

Justin was our best WR down the stretch of 2004 coming up in big spots nearly every week. He was hurt in '05 and played well after adjusting to his new role in 2006.

Barton was our best defensive player in 2004, Morre has been a solid G since he was inserted into the lineup, Barrett was a very solid corner before he was hurt all the time.

Houston was buried by Herm? He was a rookie in 2005 and started 4 games.

cotchery played alot in year 2. Not every player is ready to play in their rookie year but he had chances in 2005, the problem was we had a 4th string QB playing most of the year.

Baker was buried by Herm? We had a better TE starting his first 3 years and he saw alot of time before he was a starter. he had 4 TDs as a backup in '04 and 4 last year as a starter even though we threw the ball 50 more times in '06.

Robertson was grat in 2004, hurt in '05 the playing out of his natural positin he eventually adjusted to have a really good year.

Thomas was not buried under Herm, b/c a uy didn't produce doesn't mean they were buried. he was a DE playing on a team w/ Ellis and Abe.

Hobson was buried by Herm? heplayed in all 16 games as a rokie in 2003 then became a starter week 1 in 2004. How was he buried? it's made up stuff ike this that gets annoying.

Evenidiot herm couldn't miss the FIFTH ROUND pik Rhodes as we all know all 5th rd picks are guaranee to be great and start from day 1.

Tongue was ready to start the season so coleman started b/c he earned it.

[nyjunc]

He's 2-4 in postseason games. Am I supposed to do a cartwheel for that?

Do you know how many playoff wins the franchise leader has? TWO! he was 2-3 w/ us in the playoffs by the way.

Weeb 2-1

Michaels 2-2

Herm 2-3

Walton 1-2

BP 1-1

Coslet 0-1

Mangini 0-1

Let's be honest we aren't the Dallas Cowboys, w don't have a great history so winning 2 postseason games and only our 3rd ever road playoff game is a big deal.

[nyjunc]

Yes, but those decisions were borne of daring to be great, and only after carefully consideringt the cost benefit. Those teams both wound up in the Super Bowl. Mangini, while he couldn't have known that at both times, recognized that to beat them wasn't going to be easy playing it straight up. They didn't work, but such decisions would never even be considered under Edwards.

those decisions were asinine. 4th and G from the 3 is a near impossible spot, 4th and G from the 1 I can see it but the 3? No way. We held Chi's O down all 1st half but our O couldn't do anything, why open w/ an OSK? Even if we get it we are on our 40 or so and we weren't going to all of a sudden move the ball down th field so essentially that move was made to take control of FP- it was an idiotic move. I am ok w/ daring, I am not ok w/ idiotic. You don't just take risks for the sake of taking risks.

[Bugg]

those decisions were asinine. 4th and G from the 3 is a near impossible spot, 4th and G from the 1 I can see it but the 3? No way. We held Chi's O down all 1st half but our O couldn't do anything, why open w/ an OSK? Even if we get it we are on our 40 or so and we weren't going to all of a sudden move the ball down th field so essentially that move was made to take control of FP- it was an idiotic move. I am ok w/ daring, I am not ok w/ idiotic. You don't just take risks for the sake of taking risks.

That you see decisions like that as assinine speaks volumes. It's exaclty the risk averse attitude that typifies scaredy cat Edwards thought process. The Jets weren't as talented as either the Bears nor the Colts. Even if they were home games, neither was a gimme. It was gonna take some breaks. You're faulting Mnagini for trying to make his own breaks, which is a thought beyond the mental midget capablities of Herman Edwards.

[nyjunc]

That you see decisions like that as assinine speaks volumes. It's exaclty the risk averse attitude that typifies scaredy cat Edwards thought process. The Jets weren't as talented as either the Bears nor the Colts. Even if they were home games, neither was a gimme. It was gonna take some breaks. You're faulting Mnagini for trying to make his own breaks, which is a thought beyond the mental midget capablities of Herman Edwards.

It's not being scared it's knowing when to take risk- those 2 situations were not the times to take risks just as it was asnine to throw a halfback option against baltimore in 2004.

Those type of moves showed me he thought we had basically no shot to win when that clearly wasn't the case. We were TIED late in the 3rd w/ Indy- we wound up losing by a FG. We were tied chi at the half and gave them incredible FP. If ur O was playing well I would have been ok w/ that move but even had we recovered the OSK we were arod our own 40 so hat were we going to do? It wasn't thought out well andthe Indy move was mnd boggling tied ate in the 3rd w/ 4th and G from the 3. If he wanted to e daring how about doing something on 1st hrough 3rd down but we ran it 3 straight times. That waste time to be daring and creative but we were conservative on those 3 play calls.

[Bugg]

Tied against a Colts team that pretty much scored at will. And playing a Bears defense that allowed practically nothing. Against an inferior opponent, you don't take those chances. Against a team that's objectively better, you have to sometimes try something. That this is lost on you is this whole thread in 3 posts.

[nyjunc]

Tied against a Colts team that pretty much scored at will. And playing a Bears defense that allowed practically nothing. Against an inferior opponent, you don't take those chances. Against a team that's objectively better, you have to sometimes try something. That this is lost on you is this whole thread in 3 posts.

We were scoring at will against the Colts too! If it's early in the 2nd qtr then maybe you try something lik that but it's almost the 4th qtr, points are precious at that time. Worst cse scenario we kick the Fg and go up 3 thn Indy gets a TD an we are down - what's wrong w/ that? Our offense then would have had a chance to score a TD to take the lead. It made no snese to gofor it at tha time of the game w/te score tied and the distance we had to go. 4th and G from the 3 is a near impossible situation. You igored my question as to why we were so conservative on the 1st 3 downs? THAT was the time to be daring.

The fact that the bear D allowed practically nothing is the reason we shouldn't have tried it, even if we recover we still only have it around our 40. All we did was set up Chi w/ the GW score.

[EM31]

Chad was buried by Herm? Chad cae in as a rookie in '00 and was hurt in preseason. obviously he wasn't playing but he missed most of the year anyway. In '01 came year 2 and another new offensive system and Vinny led us to 10 wins. The start of '02 was the earliest he was going to start but Vinny had led us to 10 wins and thankfully Chad didn't start week 1 b/c our early problems were not b/c of the QB and the start would have been the same and everyone would have been all over Chad as the reason which could have done alot of mental damage.

Chad was buried. Preseason and in interviews Herm was critical of his decision making process. Chad was too deliberte we heard. Chad took too long to make decisions. It was left hanging if Chad could ever adapt his game to the pro level. A more ringing non-endorsement from the head coach you could not even imagine.

Stooopid stooopoid Herm. Chad may have a weak arm but what is between his ears is amongst the best in the entire NFL. All of this he started showing from day one as soon as he got his shot.

They re-signed Ellis, they could ahve re-signed Abe and let Ellis go. Don't you think they made the right call?

Deflections. How does Ellis have anything to do with Abraham? Ellis was a consistent, healthy, borderline pro-bowl player in many years and a decent professional even in his off years. He was a first round draft choice. Herm and the front office would be crucified for letting him walk. Herm and Bradway inherited him so how does not cutting him qualify Herm as the builder of great team assets?

The reasons for letting Abraham go were related to his heart his (reported) attitude and his inability to stay healthy for large chunks of his career.

Actually we got a 1st round pick for Coles so that isn't nothing and Wash severely overpaid him. We replaced him fairly easily and were closer to the title game in '04 than we were w/ hm in '02.

Ah... Deflections deflections. Getting to a title game or not is the product of 16 regular season games, however many playoff rounds, 53 players plus and a large coaching staff. To lay blame or praise at the door of one player means that you have no answer to the specifics of the point I made. Because we got close to a title game in '04 means Coles was not worth much? What does that say about Moss in that case? You make no sense.

How about Moss (our first rounder) who goes to the pro bowl the year he leaves?

Justin was our best WR down the stretch of 2004 coming up in big spots nearly every week. He was hurt in '05 and played well after adjusting to his new role in 2006.

I cannot even establish a basis for having a discussion with you if you think McCareins was a good deal giving up a 2nd rounder and paying him low #1 or high #2 money. We were fleeced on the deal and everyone else in the league knows that.

Barton was our best defensive player in 2004, Morre has been a solid G since he was inserted into the lineup, Barrett was a very solid corner before he was hurt all the time.

Decent pickups buty basically career JAG's all of them. We got none of them for cheap.

Houston was buried by Herm? He was a rookie in 2005 and started 4 games.

Houston was buried at the very very end of a bench decimated by injuries. Despite as we learn later showing well in practices all year long he did not even get a sniff while we had a corpse as the starter and a couple of stiffs backing him up. Houston finally got in after Curtis called off his chase for the record and went on IR... NOT BEFORE... so yes that is the poster child for being buried on athe bench.

cotchery played alot in year 2. Not every player is ready to play in their rookie year but he had chances in 2005, the problem was we had a 4th string QB playing most of the year.

Cotchery is a team player and would never come out and say it in so many words but from the things he did say about the new coaching staff being willing to play the players who are showing the most in training camp and practice, it is pretty clear to whom he was contrasting them as a breath of fresh air. Amazing all these players who "suddenly" get good once Herm leaves town eh?

Baker was buried by Herm? We had a better TE starting his first 3 years and he saw alot of time before he was a starter. he had 4 TDs as a backup in '04 and 4 last year as a starter even though we threw the ball 50 more times in '06.

Baker sat quietly on the Bench as every season we were in the market to fill

our "void" at the tight end postition. The parade of stars brought in as preferred alternatives to Baker were, Jolley, Dreeson, Dearth, and Becht. Baker never got more than 20 receptions in any year under Herm yet last year he gets 31. Do you really think the Jolley trade would have happened if Herm had felt he had a viable TE on the roster already? Come on now, that is a reach just as the ill-fated trade for Jolley was a reach. Are you beginning to see a pattern here? herm completely missing talent right under his nose and overpaying for crappy talent on the open market.

Robertson was grat in 2004, hurt in '05 the playing out of his natural positin he eventually adjusted to have a really good year.

Robertson has never had one season for us where he was "Great". He shows up for some plays and disappears for long stretches. If there is anything CONSISTENT about the play of Robertson it is that he is INCONSISTENT (at best). I have no idea what team you have been watching.

Thomas was not buried under Herm, b/c a uy didn't produce doesn't mean they were buried. he was a DE playing on a team w/ Ellis and Abe.

The sheer number of players who manage to blossom under the new coach ofter the old one leaves and you see no pattern here? Doesn't any of this offend your sense of rational probablitity?

Hobson was buried by Herm? heplayed in all 16 games as a rokie in 2003 then became a starter week 1 in 2004. How was he buried? it's made up stuff ike this that gets annoying.

<edited> He made 38 tackles in 2003 (16 games) and 30 in 2004 (12 games). The players ahead of him SUCKED. During those first two years there was real speculation that he must be a bust #3 pick because he saw so little time. It is made up stuff like YOURS that gets annoying.

Evenidiot herm couldn't miss the FIFTH ROUND pik Rhodes as we all know all 5th rd picks are guaranee to be great and start from day 1.

That's right. Some things are so obvious EVEN an idiot like Herm cannot miss them.

Tongue was ready to start the season so coleman started b/c he earned it.

Tongue missed most of TC and was injured. He was NOT considered "ready to start the season" by the coaching staff. He began to get plays once his fitness level and injury recovery got to a point that satisfied the coaching staff. That was not game 1. Reggie Tongue was yet another example of an AWFUL AWFUL open market acquisition signed off on by genious Herm, a so called expert in the secondary. Do you remember the other notable stiffs brought in back there?

Veteran Secondary talent brought in by Herm

Sam Garnes

Donnie Abhraham

Aaron Beasly

Damien Robinson

[joewilly]

I'd still like anyone to rationalize how a HC in his 5th season would need to consult with his offensive coordinator as to whether his team should accept or decline a penalty that would give the Jets a first down.

he didn't even know enough to consult. he stood dumbfounded while the oc stepped in front of him to sort it out.

[KSJets]

I am not ok w/ idiotic.

Sure you are...you love Herm

[nyjunc]

Chad was buried by Herm? Chad cae in as a rookie in '00 and was hurt in preseason. obviously he wasn't playing but he missed most of the year anyway. In '01 came year 2 and another new offensive system and Vinny led us to 10 wins. The start of '02 was the earliest he was going to start but Vinny had led us to 10 wins and thankfully Chad didn't start week 1 b/c our early problems were not b/c of the QB and the start would have been the same and everyone would have been all over Chad as the reason which could have done alot of mental damage.

Chad was buried. Preseason and in interviews Herm was critical of his decision making process. Chad was too deliberte we heard. Chad took too long to make decisions. It was left hanging if Chad could ever adapt his game to the pro level. A more ringing non-endorsement from the head coach you could not even imagine.

Stooopid stooopoid Herm. Chad may have a weak arm but what is between his ears is amongst the best in the entire NFL. All of this he started showing from day one as soon as he got his shot.

They re-signed Ellis, they could ahve re-signed Abe and let Ellis go. Don't you think they made the right call?

Deflections. How does Ellis have anything to do with Abraham? Ellis was a consistent, healthy, borderline pro-bowl player in many years and a decent professional even in his off years. He was a first round draft choice. Herm and the front office would be crucified for letting him walk. Herm and Bradway inherited him so how does not cutting him qualify Herm as the builder of great team assets?

The reasons for letting Abraham go were related to his heart his (reported) attitude and his inability to stay healthy for large chunks of his career.

Actually we got a 1st round pick for Coles so that isn't nothing and Wash severely overpaid him. We replaced him fairly easily and were closer to the title game in '04 than we were w/ hm in '02.

Ah... Deflections deflections. Getting to a title game or not is the product of 16 regular season games, however many playoff rounds, 53 players plus and a large coaching staff. To lay blame or praise at the door of one player means that you have no answer to the specifics of the point I made. Because we got close to a title game in '04 means Coles was not worth much? What does that say about Moss in that case? You make no sense.

How about Moss (our first rounder) who goes to the pro bowl the year he leaves?

Justin was our best WR down the stretch of 2004 coming up in big spots nearly every week. He was hurt in '05 and played well after adjusting to his new role in 2006.

I cannot even establish a basis for having a discussion with you if you think McCareins was a good deal giving up a 2nd rounder and paying him low #1 or high #2 money. We were fleeced on the deal and everyone else in the league knows that.

Barton was our best defensive player in 2004, Morre has been a solid G since he was inserted into the lineup, Barrett was a very solid corner before he was hurt all the time.

Decent pickups buty basically career JAG's all of them. We got none of them for cheap.

Houston was buried by Herm? He was a rookie in 2005 and started 4 games.

Houston was buried at the very very end of a bench decimated by injuries. Despite as we learn later showing well in practices all year long he did not even get a sniff while we had a corpse as the starter and a couple of stiffs backing him up. Houston finally got in after Curtis called off his chase for the record and went on IR... NOT BEFORE... so yes that is the poster child for being buried on athe bench.

cotchery played alot in year 2. Not every player is ready to play in their rookie year but he had chances in 2005, the problem was we had a 4th string QB playing most of the year.

Cotchery is a team player and would never come out and say it in so many words but from the things he did say about the new coaching staff being willing to play the players who are showing the most in training camp and practice, it is pretty clear to whom he was contrasting them as a breath of fresh air. Amazing all these players who "suddenly" get good once Herm leaves town eh?

Baker was buried by Herm? We had a better TE starting his first 3 years and he saw alot of time before he was a starter. he had 4 TDs as a backup in '04 and 4 last year as a starter even though we threw the ball 50 more times in '06.

Baker sat quietly on the Bench as every season we were in the market to fill

our "void" at the tight end postition. The parade of stars brought in as preferred alternatives to Baker were, Jolley, Dreeson, Dearth, and Becht. Baker never got more than 20 receptions in any year under Herm yet last year he gets 31. Do you really think the Jolley trade would have happened if Herm had felt he had a viable TE on the roster already? Come on now, that is a reach just as the ill-fated trade for Jolley was a reach. Are you beginning to see a pattern here? herm completely missing talent right under his nose and overpaying for crappy talent on the open market.

Robertson was grat in 2004, hurt in '05 the playing out of his natural positin he eventually adjusted to have a really good year.

Robertson has never had one season for us where he was "Great". He shows up for some plays and disappears for long stretches. If there is anything CONSISTENT about the play of Robertson it is that he is INCONSISTENT (at best). I have no idea what team you have been watching.

Thomas was not buried under Herm, b/c a uy didn't produce doesn't mean they were buried. he was a DE playing on a team w/ Ellis and Abe.

The sheer number of players who manage to blossom under the new coach ofter the old one leaves and you see no pattern here? Doesn't any of this offend your sense of rational probablitity?

Hobson was buried by Herm? heplayed in all 16 games as a rokie in 2003 then became a starter week 1 in 2004. How was he buried? it's made up stuff ike this that gets annoying.

<edited> He made 38 tackles in 2003 (16 games) and 30 in 2004 (12 games). The players ahead of him SUCKED. During those first two years there was real speculation that he must be a bust #3 pick because he saw so little time. It is made up stuff like YOURS that gets annoying.

Evenidiot herm couldn't miss the FIFTH ROUND pik Rhodes as we all know all 5th rd picks are guaranee to be great and start from day 1.

That's right. Some things are so obvious EVEN an idiot like Herm cannot miss them.

Tongue was ready to start the season so coleman started b/c he earned it.

Tongue missed most of TC and was injured. He was NOT considered "ready to start the season" by the coaching staff. He began to get plays once his fitness level and injury recovery got to a point that satisfied the coaching staff. That was not game 1. Reggie Tongue was yet another example of an AWFUL AWFUL open market acquisition signed off on by genious Herm, a so called expert in the secondary. Do you remember the other notable stiffs brought in back there?

Veteran Secondary talent brought in by Herm

Sam Garnes

Donnie Abhraham

Aaron Beasly

Damien Robinson

He was critical of Chad- he was TRYING TO MOTIVATE HIM and apparently it worked. coaches last year said some of the same things about Chad at times. He thinks too much at times and that hurts him.

Ellis has everything to do w/ Abe. They weren't signing both to big deals and they signed the guy who at least stays on the field. They KEPT him, Herm & Tb inherited a team w/ 4 1st rd picks that were all due for new contracts at the same time AND they inherited aterrible cap situation- there was no way we could ahve kept them all.

Deflections? what am I deflecting? you said we got nothing for Coles, I responded w/ the fact that we got a 1st rd pick- how is that a deflection? Wash severely overpaid for Coles, as good as he was and is he was not an essential player at the time- not essential enough to overpay and ruin the cap when we knew Abe, Ellis and Chad were coming up for new deals.

Moss went to the PB the year he left, he also made the PB as an alternate the year Coles left.

I didn't say Mccareins was a great deal to give up a 2, I said he was our best WR down the stretch of 2004 and was a key player in our success that year. A 2 was a bit high but he had a big upside that he didn't come through on.

Again, barton was great in 2004, Moore has beewn solid and Barrett was solid and NONE of them were expensive.

We had Curtis martin and acquired Blaylcok to be the backup- obviously those 2 had first crack at the job and when they got hurt Ced got his chance and was ok.

What did Cotch show in preseason of '04 or '05? he came in for '06 and was great all through camp and into preseason. Some players take more time to develop than othrs, he got a big chance in 2005 but it was hard to have success w/ a 4th string QB.

When did Baker sit quietly on the bench? Even when he din't start he ALWAYS played alot even as a rookie.

Baker didn't start under herm utnil 2005 and he got hurt in 2005 and our QBs sucked. In 2005 he played in 8 games and had 18 recs, in 2006 he playd in 16 and had 31. 18 x 2= 36 so he was on pace to be better in 2005 until he got hurt.

robertson was great in 2004, go back and watch tape of that season. He was a beast inside and a key- maybe the biggest key- to our top 5 D. He was hurt in '05 then played very well last year after a rough early adjustment to a new position.

Thomas and Cotch blosomed but Vilma(our best defensive player) took a major step back as did Shaun Ellis. it's a give and take- does it offend you that Ellis andVilma were much worse under the new CS?

Made up stuff? you said Hobson was BURIED on the bench and I showed you that wasn't the case, he was starting in year 2 and played alot in year 1. You used the word defelcting alot- that's exactly what YOU are doing.

If Tongue wasn't ready then why did he start all 16 games in 2004?

Hrem was NOT the GM once again and Beasley and Garnes playd well in '02 helping us win a div title(we had to scrambe to fill players b/c we lost so mcuh b/c of the cap situation) and Robinson and Abe played well or us.

[SouthernJet]

That you see decisions like that as assinine speaks volumes. It's exaclty the risk averse attitude that typifies scaredy cat Edwards thought process. The Jets weren't as talented as either the Bears nor the Colts. Even if they were home games, neither was a gimme. It was gonna take some breaks. You're faulting Mnagini for trying to make his own breaks, which is a thought beyond the mental midget capablities of Herman Edwards.

potw

[EM31]

Your defense of Herman Edwards is bizarre quite frankly. I can only assume you must be related to him or something. The context for our little subthread was when I made the point that Herm left the cupboard pretty close to bare having squandered a very talented core of players inherited from the previous regime.

You in turn came back with a highly questionable list of players puporting to show that Herm somehow handed over the reins of an organization just brimming with talent. What I think is clear is that your list is broken down into the following groups

1) Players who Herm himslef inherited

such as Pennington and Ellis and so they are a wash. He inherited and bequeathed them and all he is doing is handing over the same asset with a bunch more mileage on them. In other words it was not something accumulated by Herm.

2) Players who stagnated under Herm

Such as Cotchery, Thomas, Hobson and to a lesser degree Cedric Houston. Herm gets no credit becuase those players only really blossomed after he left.

3) Player who are JAGS

Neither assets really nor out-and-out liabilites. I include Barton, Barrett and Moore in this category. OK players but nothing much to write home about.

4) Players who are vastly vastly overrated on your list

Either in terms of their absolute skill level or in terms of the amount of cap dollars they consume, or in terms of the amount of picks we had to give up to get them. OR ALL THREE. I include Robertson, McCareins and Vilma in this list. Not JAGS but not worth what they cost either.

Finally,

Or veteran core aged significantly under Herman Edwards. There was not enough done to develop the talent that we did manage to get in-house and far too many mistakes were made in deciding what talent to obtain/retain and what talent to take a pass on. All things considered this adds up to the squandering of the Jets franchise's resources and we were left poorer and in a worse cap position than when Herm took over.

Under Herm we did indeed make the playoffs three out of five and there is something to be said for that even if we had substantial amounts last week help on two of those three years. On the other hand there is little doubt we spent much of our time eating our own seed corn and planting much of what was left in very unfertile soil. Mangini took obver a mess. KC is headed in the same direction.

[Jet Moses]

Your defense of Herman Edwards is bizarre quite frankly. I can only assume you must be related to him or something. The context for our little subthread was when I made the point that Herm left the cupboard pretty close to bare having squandered a very talented core of players inherited from the previous regime.

You in turn came back with a highly questionable list of players puporting to show that Herm somehow handed over the reins of an organization just brimming with talent. What I think is clear is that your list is broken down into the following groups

1) Players who Herm himslef inherited

such as Pennington and Ellis and so they are a wash. He inherited and bequeathed them and all he is doing is handing over the same asset with a bunch more mileage on them. In other words it was not something accumulated by Herm.

2) Players who stagnated under Herm

Such as Cotchery, Thomas, Hobson and to a lesser degree Cedric Houston. Herm gets no credit becuase those players only really blossomed after he left.

3) Player who are JAGS

Neither assets really nor out-and-out liabilites. I include Barton, Barrett and Moore in this category. OK players but nothing much to write home about.

4) Players who are vastly vastly overrated on your list

Either in terms of their absolute skill level or in terms of the amount of cap dollars they consume, or in terms of the amount of picks we had to give up to get them. OR ALL THREE. I include Robertson, McCareins and Vilma in this list. Not JAGS but not worth what they cost either.

Finally,

Or veteran core aged significantly under Herman Edwards. There was not enough done to develop the talent that we did manage to get in-house and far too many mistakes were made in deciding what talent to obtain/retain and what talent to take a pass on. All things considered this adds up to the squandering of the Jets franchise's resources and we were left poorer and in a worse cap position than when Herm took over.

Under Herm we did indeed make the playoffs three out of five and there is something to be said for that even if we had substantial amounts last week help on two of those three years. On the other hand there is little doubt we spent much of our time eating our own seed corn and planting much of what was left in very unfertile soil. Mangini took obver a mess. KC is headed in the same direction.

That was Sperm Edwardsesque/MsGoldesque.

Beautifully done!

[nyjunc]

Your defense of Herman Edwards is bizarre quite frankly. I can only assume you must be related to him or something. The context for our little subthread was when I made the point that Herm left the cupboard pretty close to bare having squandered a very talented core of players inherited from the previous regime.

You in turn came back with a highly questionable list of players puporting to show that Herm somehow handed over the reins of an organization just brimming with talent. What I think is clear is that your list is broken down into the following groups

1) Players who Herm himslef inherited

such as Pennington and Ellis and so they are a wash. He inherited and bequeathed them and all he is doing is handing over the same asset with a bunch more mileage on them. In other words it was not something accumulated by Herm.

2) Players who stagnated under Herm

Such as Cotchery, Thomas, Hobson and to a lesser degree Cedric Houston. Herm gets no credit becuase those players only really blossomed after he left.

3) Player who are JAGS

Neither assets really nor out-and-out liabilites. I include Barton, Barrett and Moore in this category. OK players but nothing much to write home about.

4) Players who are vastly vastly overrated on your list

Either in terms of their absolute skill level or in terms of the amount of cap dollars they consume, or in terms of the amount of picks we had to give up to get them. OR ALL THREE. I include Robertson, McCareins and Vilma in this list. Not JAGS but not worth what they cost either.

Finally,

Or veteran core aged significantly under Herman Edwards. There was not enough done to develop the talent that we did manage to get in-house and far too many mistakes were made in deciding what talent to obtain/retain and what talent to take a pass on. All things considered this adds up to the squandering of the Jets franchise's resources and we were left poorer and in a worse cap position than when Herm took over.

Under Herm we did indeed make the playoffs three out of five and there is something to be said for that even if we had substantial amounts last week help on two of those three years. On the other hand there is little doubt we spent much of our time eating our own seed corn and planting much of what was left in very unfertile soil. Mangini took obver a mess. KC is headed in the same direction.

It is completely insane to think the cupboard was left bare, I gave you a tremendous list of players, a list that was the primary reason we won 10 games last year and are expected to be pretty good again this year and beyond.

1. he inherited thsoe guys but they also blossomed under him much like guys like keyshawn and Chrebet blosomed under parcells and alot of you guys give BP credit for them even though he didn't draft them.

2. Cotchery was a young player, his 2nd year we had a 4TH STRING QB playng most of the year, Thomas I'l give you but he was contributing the last couple of years before Mangini got here he just didn't blossom unti last year, Hobson was starting in his 2nd year and Houston startd the 2nd half of his rookie year and while Thomas and Hobson improved we saw a decline in Vilma and Ellis and those 2. The new system has been a big help to certain players and a detriment to others.

3. Barton was our BEST defnesive player in 2004, he was hurt last year and was average last year. barrett was a solid corner in '04, hurt last year. Moore was a DL who they converted to a G and he has been nothing but solid since he began playing.

4. Vilma was alot better under the previous regime, Robertson was slot better when healthy under the previous regime, McCareins has ad his moments. hy was it ok to thow away a 4th rs pick for Barlow last year and a late rd pick for Sean Ryan as well as only getting 4 picks tis year thanks to trading up for 2 picks but it wasn't ok to waste a pick here or there for players who have all contributed to us making the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years?

is it Herm's fault that our veteran core aged under him? is he now supposed to stop the aging process? Remember he took 3 different Jets teams to the playoffs. In his 1styear he had mostly holdovers from the previous regimes, in year 2 we had cap problems sowe had a mostly new defense and a new staing QB, in year 4 we had a new D again and new WRs and OL AND that regime left the current regime w/ n excellent core of young players ad players in their primes.

[nyjunc]

That was Sperm Edwardsesque/MsGoldesque.

Beautifully done!

of course it was beautifully done:rolleyes: , as long as someone agrees w/ your point of view it doesn't matter that everything he wrote was wrong.

[EM31]

...

is it Herm's fault that our veteran core aged under him? is he now supposed to stop the aging process? Remember he took 3 different Jets teams to the playoffs. In his 1styear he had mostly holdovers from the previous regimes, in year 2 we had cap problems sowe had a mostly new defense and a new staing QB, in year 4 we had a new D again and new WRs and OL AND that regime left the current regime w/ n excellent core of young players ad players in their primes.

We could go back and forth on this all day. I admire your sticktoitiveness I really do. I simply disagree on the substance of yourr evaluations or on the few where we are in agreement, on the degree to which Herm can take credit (or blame) for those players.

Herm does not deserve such a defender IMO.