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[pjam76]

Take your chances Clement???

That's not a chance, that's just certain failure. He better not be starting next year under any circumstances. I'd rather take a chance on an unknown guy than have him here next season.

Personally I think we will get higher than a 3rd for Vilma, I could even see us getting a 1st TBH. There are a lot of teams with desolated LB cores that would love to have Vilma.

This makes no sense. If Vilma sucks like some proclaim, yet other teams are willing to give up a 1st round draft pick for him, who really is the moron?

[Irish Jet]

In 2004, Vilma was named as the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press. During his rookie campaign, he recorded 108 tackles, two sacks, and three interceptions, including one which was returned for his first NFL touchdown.

2005 season

In 2005, Vilma led the NFL in tackles with 173, forced four fumbles, notched one fumble recovery, half a sack, and one interception. Vilma also replaced Zach Thomas at the 2006 Pro Bowl.

2006 season

In 2006, Vilma put together another solid season. He compiled 114 tackles, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery, and one interception.

I'd say you claiming Harris is a great player to be is kind of lame considering besides 2007, Vilma actually had 3 very good seasons. Say what you want about the guy, Harris has had 8 good games, Vilma had 3 good seasons, won the rookie of the year, made a pro bowl, and then had one bad season. So if you say Vilma sucks cause of this year, it's kind of lame to say Harris is great after 8 games.

Like I said, people said the same thing about Vilma at one point. Who knows what will happen.

Take a look at that 2004 and 2006 season, Harris had more tackles despite only starting 8 ****ing games and has had more sacks in those 8 games than Vilma has had in his career!!!!

Harris is a lot better in this defence than Vilma, it's not even close.

[JETSFAN5180]

Vilma with a supporting cast of LBs along with Harris gives us some depth and strength at the position.No team will give up a 1st round draft pick for Vilma.

Heres his stats.I say keep him and add him in the 3-4 to make our defense stronger hes a proven player.

NFL career

Vilma was drafted by the Jets with the 12th selection in the 2004 NFL Draft.

2004 season

In 2004, Vilma was named as the NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year by the Associated Press. During his rookie campaign, he recorded 108 tackles, two sacks, and three interceptions, including one which was returned for his first NFL touchdown.

2005 season

In 2005, Vilma led the NFL in tackles with 173, forced four fumbles, notched one fumble recovery, half a sack, and one interception. Vilma also replaced Zach Thomas at the 2006 Pro Bowl.

2006 season

In 2006, Vilma put together another solid season. He compiled 114 tackles, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery, and one interception.

2007 season

On October 27, 2007, Vilma was placed on injured reserve. Vilma suffered a season ending knee injury during the New York Jets week 7 game against the Cincinnati Bengals. [1]

Career Statistics

Year Team G Tackles Sacks TFL INT INT YDS FF FR PD TD

2004 NY Jets 16 108 2 5.5 3 58 0 1 5 1

2005 NY Jets 16 173* 0.5 6 1 1 4 1 6 0

2006 NY Jets 16 114 0 1 1 0 1 1 4 0

Totals 48 392 2.5 12.5 5 59 5 3 15 1

*NFL Leader[1]

[Irish Jet]

This makes no sense. If Vilma sucks like some proclaim, yet other teams are willing to give up a 1st round draft pick for him, who really is the moron?

HE CANNOT PLAY IN A 3-4 ****ING DEFENCE!!!

4-3?? Yes, but not in a 3-4!!!

[Irish Jet]

2006 season

In 2006, Vilma put together another solid season. He compiled 114 tackles, one forced fumble, one fumble recovery, and one interception.

2007 season

On October 27, 2007, Vilma was placed on injured reserve. Vilma suffered a season ending knee injury during the New York Jets week 7 game against the Cincinnati Bengals.

These are the only seasons that matter because they are the ones that have come in the 3-4, they're not bad but sure as hell aren't great. Especially when you consider most of the tackles came about 7-8 yards downfield.

[pjam76]

Take a look at that 2004 and 2006 season, Harris had more tackles despite only starting 8 ****ing games and has had more sacks in those 8 games than Vilma has had in his career!!!!

Harris is a lot better in this defence than Vilma, it's not even close.

You do realize Harris has played all 16 games, not just 8. He might have only started 8, but it wasn't like he sat the bench the first 8 and never played.

So far I agree Harris looks great, but then again 126 tackles also means nobody on the DL is making tackles. Harris should not have 126 tackles, plain and simple.

But as I said, people were proclaiming Vilma would be great back then. People are proclaiming Harris will be. A few years later people want Vilma out of town. WHo is to say in a few years the same won't be said about Harris.

All I know is a team should find a way to utilize a guy who averages over 100 tackles per year . But what are the Jets known for. Dumping their better players and never replacing them.

Harris is a great pickup, but it's not like he improves the team if he's just replacing Vilma. If they added Harris and found a way to utilize Vilma, that's improving the team. What the Jets are doing is one big circle jerk. Draft a good player, dump a good player.

[Maxman]

What is the use in bringing Vilma back, him having another lackluster season, then departing when free agency hits while we get nothing in return?

The kid is coming off a season ending knee injury and has been out of place for the past 2 years. You're not going to get a 1st or 2nd round pick in return for him.

Vilma would help this team much more next year than a 3rd rounder would. He won't be traded for a 3rd or a 4th. They will just keep him. He is a football player. The Jets need more of them.

[Untouchable]

This makes no sense. If Vilma sucks like some proclaim, yet other teams are willing to give up a 1st round draft pick for him, who really is the moron?

And who are your sources proclaiming Vilma would catch a 1st round pick?

Let's see, a guy who hasn't been a playmaker since 2004 and just had his season ended by a serious knee injury.

Yeah, I'm sure teams are just lining up everywhere flashing those 1st round picks.

[Iceman88]

You do realize Harris has played all 16 games, not just 8. He might have only started 8, but it wasn't like he sat the bench the first 8 and never played.

So far I agree Harris looks great, but then again 126 tackles also means nobody on the DL is making tackles. Harris should not have 126 tackles, plain and simple.

But as I said, people were proclaiming Vilma would be great back then. People are proclaiming Harris will be. A few years later people want Vilma out of town. WHo is to say in a few years the same won't be said about Harris.

All I know is a team should find a way to utilize a guy who averages over 100 tackles per year . But what are the Jets known for. Dumping their better players and never replacing them.

Harris is a great pickup, but it's not like he improves the team if he's just replacing Vilma. If they added Harris and found a way to utilize Vilma, that's improving the team. What the Jets are doing is one big circle jerk. Draft a good player, dump a good player.

He does improve the team especially if he replaces Vilma. Vilma sucks in the 3-4 its really simple and getting another good ILB in the 3-4 instead of wasting time with Vilma is be huge.

[pjam76]

Vilma would help this team much more next year than a 3rd rounder would. He won't be traded for a 3rd or a 4th. They will just keep him. He is a football player. The Jets need more of them.

I agree Max.. The Jets getting a 4th round pick for Vilma does what?

Washington is a special teams player. While he is their biggest threat, he barely plays on offense, so who would the Jets pick with the 4th round draft pick? So far the Jets have shown they know how to draft first round picks. Other than that, they seem to be a team who knows how to draft part time players or projects who might never be anything.

So dumping one of their better defensive players over the past few seasons for a 4th round pick is once again playing circle jerk. Yeah we saw how they replaced Kendall. Harris might become great, but what's the point if in a few years they dump him. As I said, Vilma was rookie of the year a few seasons back. Not exactly a scrub.

[Iceman88]

Vilma would help this team much more next year than a 3rd rounder would. He won't be traded for a 3rd or a 4th. They will just keep him. He is a football player. The Jets need more of them.

Except then he would just walk away after that season so he can play in the 4-3 defense. I would much rather get something in return for him than watch him suck in the 3-4 another year and leave.

[Irish Jet]

You do realize Harris has played all 16 games, not just 8. He might have only started 8, but it wasn't like he sat the bench the first 8 and never played.

So far I agree Harris looks great, but then again 126 tackles also means nobody on the DL is making tackles. Harris should not have 126 tackles, plain and simple.

But as I said, people were proclaiming Vilma would be great back then. People are proclaiming Harris will be. A few years later people want Vilma out of town. WHo is to say in a few years the same won't be said about Harris.

All I know is a team should find a way to utilize a guy who averages over 100 tackles per year . But what are the Jets known for. Dumping their better players and never replacing them.

Harris is a great pickup, but it's not like he improves the team if he's just replacing Vilma. If they added Harris and found a way to utilize Vilma, that's improving the team. What the Jets are doing is one big circle jerk. Draft a good player, dump a good player.

That's why I said he's started 8 genius. He still wasn't seeing nearly enough playing time. Harris shouldn't have 126 tackles??? WTF, he's not a CB. His tackles have for the large part came in and around the LOS too.

Vilma cannot be utilized to any great effect in the 3-4, he gets pushed around because he's too small to take on the blockers. Harris is a totally different player who is perfect for our system. You keep making the comparison but it's a stupid one.

In a 3-4 the LB has to be able to take on blockers consistently wheras in a 4-3 set the LB can take advantage of the space and use the holes created by the front four.

[Maxman]

I agree Max.. The Jets getting a 4th round pick for Vilma does what?

Washington is a special teams player. While he is their biggest threat, he barely plays on offense, so who would the Jets pick with the 4th round draft pick? So far the Jets have shown they know how to draft first round picks. Other than that, they seem to be a team who knows how to draft part time players or projects who might never be anything.

So dumping one of their better defensive players over the past few seasons for a 4th round pick is once again playing circle jerk. Yeah we saw how they replaced Kendall. Harris might become great, but what's the point if in a few years they dump him. As I said, Vilma was rookie of the year a few seasons back. Not exactly a scrub.

Wait you mentioned Kendall, do you think Vilma could play LG? He would have to gain about 90 pounds, lol.

I agree 100% about replacing a good player with another good player. Let's replace some of the positions that are in need (2nd CB, LG, RT, OLB). Then we will see some progress.

[JETSFAN5180]

You do realize Harris has played all 16 games, not just 8. He might have only started 8, but it wasn't like he sat the bench the first 8 and never played.

So far I agree Harris looks great, but then again 126 tackles also means nobody on the DL is making tackles. Harris should not have 126 tackles, plain and simple.

But as I said, people were proclaiming Vilma would be great back then. People are proclaiming Harris will be. A few years later people want Vilma out of town. WHo is to say in a few years the same won't be said about Harris.

All I know is a team should find a way to utilize a guy who averages over 100 tackles per year . But what are the Jets known for. Dumping their better players and never replacing them.

Harris is a great pickup, but it's not like he improves the team if he's just replacing Vilma. If they added Harris and found a way to utilize Vilma, that's improving the team. What the Jets are doing is one big circle jerk. Draft a good player, dump a good player.

Great post the best ive read regarding this situation.Lets not pull off another Jamer Farrior deal here.

[Irish Jet]

Vilma would help this team much more next year than a 3rd rounder would. He won't be traded for a 3rd or a 4th. They will just keep him. He is a football player. The Jets need more of them.

How do you know that, we could draft a total stud in the 3rd round. Just because it's a low pick doesn't mean we couldn't end up with a very good player.

[pjam76]

He does improve the team especially if he replaces Vilma. Vilma sucks in the 3-4 its really simple and getting another good ILB in the 3-4 instead of wasting time with Vilma is be huge.

Harris doesn't improve the team if all he does is replace one of the better players on defense. Say what you want about Vilma, but he wasn't named rookie of the year cause he was a scrub.

If Harris is great while Vilma was just good, it's not exactly improving the team. It's playing circle jerk cause it's not really adding anything. You replace one of your best defensive players with one of your best defensive players. That's not improving, that's standing still.

ANd how does a 4th round player improve the defense? Cause the Jets sure haven't shown they know how to draft outside the first round. Harris is the only real starter they've picked over 12 rounds and two years.

So trading Vilma for a 4th round pick improves the team how?

[Irish Jet]

Except then he would just walk away after that season so he can play in the 4-3 defense. I would much rather get something in return for him than watch him suck in the 3-4 another year and leave.

My point exactly.The first chance he gets vilma will look to switch back to a 4-3. Then he'd be gone for nothing.

[Irish Jet]

Harris doesn't improve the team if all he does is replace one of the better players on defense. Say what you want about Vilma, but he wasn't named rookie of the year cause he was a scrub.

If Harris is great while Vilma was just good, it's not exactly improving the team. It's playing circle jerk cause it's not really adding anything. You replace one of your best defensive players with one of your best defensive players. That's not improving, that's standing still.

ANd how does a 4th round player improve the defense? Cause the Jets sure haven't shown they know how to draft outside the first round. Harris is the only real starter they've picked over 12 rounds and two years.

So trading Vilma for a 4th round pick improves the team how?

Seriously have you watched Vilma over the last 2 season??

The guy's become a liability, he can excell in the 4-3 but not in the 3-4. That is the simple fact.

[JETSFAN5180]

How do you know that, we could draft a total stud in the 3rd round. Just because it's a low pick doesn't mean we couldn't end up with a very good player.

We could also draft a guy who doesnt even wind up on the opening day roster.

Vilma is a quality player who will flourish when surrounded by other quality players making the defense stronger and more competetive.

Trade Vilma and I promise you it will be a carbon copy of the James Farrior situation.

[Untouchable]

You do realize Harris has played all 16 games, not just 8. He might have only started 8, but it wasn't like he sat the bench the first 8 and never played.

So far I agree Harris looks great, but then again 126 tackles also means nobody on the DL is making tackles. Harris should not have 126 tackles, plain and simple.

But as I said, people were proclaiming Vilma would be great back then. People are proclaiming Harris will be. A few years later people want Vilma out of town. WHo is to say in a few years the same won't be said about Harris.

All I know is a team should find a way to utilize a guy who averages over 100 tackles per year . But what are the Jets known for. Dumping their better players and never replacing them.

Harris is a great pickup, but it's not like he improves the team if he's just replacing Vilma. If they added Harris and found a way to utilize Vilma, that's improving the team. What the Jets are doing is one big circle jerk. Draft a good player, dump a good player.

Harris had a total of 15 tackles heading into week 8.

That means he registered 111 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 2 FF's, and 1 FR over the last half of the season. If that isn't fantastic I don't know what is.

Harris doesn't help the team by replacing Vilma?

I saw a noticable improvement in our run defense and our amount of stops behind the line since the change was made.

In the 4-3, Jonathan Vilma is a borderline pro-bowler.

In the 3-4, he's borderline dogsh*t.

Those are the the facts. I suggest you go back and watch the games if you believe otherwise.

[Maxman]

Seriously have you watched Vilma over the last 2 season??

The guy's become a liability, he can excell in the 4-3 but not in the 3-4. That is the simple fact.

LOL you get some brilliant football minds in a room. Give them the offseason to work it out and then tell me that Vilma can't help any team in the league. I refuse to believe it. Keep and open mind and they will work something out.

[Irish Jet]

We could also draft a guy who doesnt even wind up on the opening day roster.

Vilma is a quality player who will flourish when surrounded by other quality players making the defense stronger and more competetive.

Trade Vilma and I promise you it will be a carbon copy of the James Farrior situation.

James Farrior is again a totally different player. He could have played in our D or in any D for that matter. Vilma can't play and be effective in the 3-4, he just can't. That's why he needs to go.

[Iceman88]

Harris doesn't improve the team if all he does is replace one of the better players on defense. Say what you want about Vilma, but he wasn't named rookie of the year cause he was a scrub.

If Harris is great while Vilma was just good, it's not exactly improving the team. It's playing circle jerk cause it's not really adding anything. You replace one of your best defensive players with one of your best defensive players. That's not improving, that's standing still.

ANd how does a 4th round player improve the defense? Cause the Jets sure haven't shown they know how to draft outside the first round. Harris is the only real starter they've picked over 12 rounds and two years.

So trading Vilma for a 4th round pick improves the team how?

Are you reading any of our posts?! VILMA SUCKS IN THE 3-4! Yes he was good when we played a 4-3 but we don't use it anymore. He has no use in the 3-4 defense and isn't at all a playmaker or one of the better defensive players. I don't give a sh*t how well he did before cause he isn't doing that now or anytime soon when we use the 3-4.

Vilma will walk next year once his contract is up and go to a team that uses a 4-3 defense. There is no reason to keep him on the roster one more year so he can underperform and we will get nothing. I'd much rather take any draft pick we can get and develop a player to be his successor.

[pjam76]

All I know is this regime has not shown they have a clue how to draft outside of the first round. One starter in 12 rounds over two years isn't a good sign. Yeah Washington should be the starting RB, but he isn't and he's rarely used on offense. Smith is just a joke at this point. KC is still an unknown. Bender is useless. Schelegel is gone. Stuckey didn't play a down.

All I know is if they trade Vilma for a 4th round pick, who is to say they don't do the same things they've done the first two years. And that's find a way to trade away the pick for a guy like Thomas Jones or draft a player who won't even start.

I'm sorry but while Vilma hasn't really been great since 2004, what other starters have the Jets drafted over the past two years outside the first round? Yeah Harris is the only guy and he was taken early in the second round.

Again, how does trading Vilma for a 4th round pick really improve this team?

[Irish Jet]

Harris had a total of 15 tackles heading into week 8.

That means he registered 111 tackles, 5.5 sacks, 2 FF's, and 1 FR over the last half of the season. If that isn't fantastic I don't know what is.

Harris doesn't help the team by replacing Vilma?

I saw a noticable improvement in our run defense and our amount of stops behind the line since the change was made.

In the 4-3, Jonathan Vilma is a borderline pro-bowler.

In the 3-4, he's borderline dogsh*t.

Those are the the facts. I suggest you go back and watch the games if you believe otherwise.

Can't explain it any better than that. Stop bringing up what he did in the 4-3 cause it doesn't mean Jack ****!!!

[pjam76]

Are you reading any of our posts?! VILMA SUCKS IN THE 3-4! Yes he was good when we played a 4-3 but we don't use it anymore. He has no use in the 3-4 defense and isn't at all a playmaker or one of the better defensive players. I don't give a sh*t how well he did before cause he isn't doing that now or anytime soon when we use the 3-4.

Vilma will walk next year once his contract is up and go to a team that uses a 4-3 defense. There is no reason to keep him on the roster one more year so he can underperform and we will get nothing. I'd much rather take any draft pick we can get and develop a player to be his successor.

Like Schegel or Bender?

[Maxman]

Guys -- Vilma will be on this team next year. I hate to have to break this news to you.

[Iceman88]

Like Schegel or Bender?

Ok or we get a player who has an impact or we get absolutley NOTHING and Vilma leaves after 2008. How is Vilma playing for one more season and then leaving useful?

[Irish Jet]

Guys -- Vilma will be on this team next year. I hate to have to break this news to you.

What a convincing arguement.

[Untouchable]

All I know is this regime has not shown they have a clue how to draft outside of the first round. One starter in 12 rounds over two years isn't a good sign. Yeah Washington should be the starting RB, but he isn't and he's rarely used on offense. Smith is just a joke at this point. KC is still an unknown. Bender is useless. Schelegel is gone. Stuckey didn't play a down.

All I know is if they trade Vilma for a 4th round pick, who is to say they don't do the same things they've done the first two years. And that's find a way to trade away the pick for a guy like Thomas Jones or draft a player who won't even start.

I'm sorry but while Vilma hasn't really been great since 2004, what other starters have the Jets drafted over the past two years outside the first round? Yeah Harris is the only guy and he was taken early in the second round.

Again, how does trading Vilma for a 4th round pick really improve this team?

One starter?

Brick, Mangold, Clemens, Harris, and Revis.

That's five.

How the hell can you sit there and say Mangini and Tannenbaum don't know what their doing in the draft? The two tradeups they pulled last year have turned out to be fried gold. I think we can all agree that both Harris and Revis will be huge cornerstones on our defense for years to come.

[#27TheDominator]

Vilma cannot shed blocks, when a guard gets on him he is out of the play. Sure he could play better if he had a good NT but even so he is still to small, a 3-4 LB needs to be able to take on the interior lineman and force his way to the ballcarrier consistently. Vilma can not do that.

He does improve the team especially if he replaces Vilma. Vilma sucks in the 3-4 its really simple and getting another good ILB in the 3-4 instead of wasting time with Vilma is be huge.

Take your chances Clement???

That's not a chance, that's just certain failure. He better not be starting next year under any circumstances. I'd rather take a chance on an unknown guy than have him here next season.

Personally I think we will get higher than a 3rd for Vilma, I could even see us getting a 1st TBH. There are a lot of teams with desolated LB cores that would love to have Vilma.

Read the mock. UT is not suggesting that we draft Laurinaitis. He has getting Gholston and Suggs. The starting RT is McGlynn from Pitt and at ILB Kassell and Ben Moffit are splitting time. I'd rather have Vilma in at ILB and Clement and whatever we can get to compete are RT. Kassell is a disaster of much greater magnitude than Clement. Clement is **** but it's the LG that is a gaping hole.

If they took the other LB from Ohio State it might make more sense. Can't see having two pass rush specialist OLBs when neither is a standup player and I have no confidence in either covering a TE. It would look better to me with Suggs/Thomas at OLB, Laurinaitis/Harris at ILB and then McGlynn/Clement at RT.

[Irish Jet]

Like Schegel or Bender?

Like Leon Washington????

[pjam76]

Can't explain it any better than that. Stop bringing up what he did in the 4-3 cause it doesn't mean Jack ****!!!

It just means the coaching staff is filled with idiots.

I'm not saying Vilma is good in the 3-4, he hasn't been impressive. But if this regime does nothing but dump good players, they'll never draft enough players to be good.

All I know is have they replaced Abe yet? Have they replaced Kendall? Heck, have they replaced Pennington? Have they replaced Martin? Have they replaced Fabani?

Harris seems like a better fit than Vilma at this point, but only an idiot tries to force a scheme on a team that doesn't have those kind of players.

[Irish Jet]

Read the mock. UT is not suggesting that we draft Laurinaitis. He has getting Gholston and Suggs. The starting RT is McGlynn from Pitt and at ILB Kassell and Ben Moffit are splitting time. I'd rather have Vilma in at ILB and Clement and whatever we can get to compete are RT. Kassell is a disaster of much greater magnitude than Clement. Clement is **** but it's the LG that is a gaping hole.

If they took the other LB from Ohio State it might make more sense. Can't see having two pass rush specialist OLBs when neither is a standup player and I have no confidence in either covering a TE. It would look better to me with Suggs/Thomas at OLB, Laurinaitis/Harris at ILB and then McGlynn/Clement at RT.

**** the mock, my sig is more accurate!!!

[Iceman88]

Read the mock. UT is not suggesting that we draft Laurinaitis. He has getting Gholston and Suggs. The starting RT is McGlynn from Pitt and at ILB Kassell and Ben Moffit are splitting time. I'd rather have Vilma in at ILB and Clement and whatever we can get to compete are RT. Kassell is a disaster of much greater magnitude than Clement. Clement is **** but it's the LG that is a gaping hole.

If they took the other LB from Ohio State it might make more sense. Can't see having two pass rush specialist OLBs when neither is a standup player and I have no confidence in either covering a TE. It would look better to me with Suggs/Thomas at OLB, Laurinaitis/Harris at ILB and then McGlynn/Clement at RT.

I already told him I disagree with that part of his mock and think it makes no sense. If we sign Suggs we should not be drafting Gholston and need to draft Lauranitis.