Judge Rejects Challenge That Redskins Trademark Is Disparaging

[Thai Jet]

Wow, I'm sick of all these frickin' Native Americans trying to do this crap. I don't know why they get so mad. It's not like it's disrespecting them. So maybe people of the Celtic religion should sue the Celtics, right? It's stupid and it's a waste of time. They can call their teams whatever they want. It's not disrespecting them or making fun of them. They need to chill out!

I have some native blood but I am absolutely fine with it. I do know others who think it's the same as calling a team using the dreaded "N" word. That really seems like a huge stretch.

[Thai Jet]

The creator of the "Jet" should sue the Jets.

Tall, Giant men should sue the Giants.

People in Texas should sue the Texans.

Women on periods should sue the Red Wings.

etc. etc. etc.

LOL at that last one.

[Thai Jet]

That was a long, long time ago. None of them were even around when that kinda crap happened. And we didn't do anything, our very, very distant ancestors did, but I haven't done anything.

Slavery was "a long long time ago" too but I hear it mentioned at least once a week in the news. Especially now with Obama running.

[Thai Jet]

Uh...because we exterminated their people and annihilated their culture and put them on reservations. That's why Native Americans have astronomically higher rates of poverty, alcoholism, and suicide than any other ethnic group. They are treated equally to everyone else today, but they were treated like garbage for about 400 years, so the deck has been stacked against them.

Yeah they should like "just get over it".

[Thai Jet]

what they need is a native american al sharpton.

:rl:

[uart]

I gotcha, but I wouldn't support a team called the Mississippi Crackers either.

How about one called the Atlanta Crackers?

[Green DNA]

They should change the name to the Washington Tax Free Casino Owners, that would be more appropriate

[Sperm Edwards]

They should change the name to the Washington Tax Free Casino Owners, that would be more appropriate

[GangGreen]

I gotcha, but I wouldn't support a team called the Mississippi Crackers either.

I really wouldn't mind. People need to stop being p*ssies. It's only a word.

[bitonti]

I really wouldn't mind. People need to stop being p*ssies. It's only a word.

of course you wouldn't mind, white people weren't systematically killed.

it's not just a word.

It's a mascot of a team in the nation's capital - a nation that waged systematic genocide against an entire race.

It would be like a team in Berlin calling themselves the Jewbags. or a team in Serbia calling themselves the Dirty Croats. It's more than insensitive it's downright ignorant.

quick rule of thumb: if a government commits genocide it's in bad taste to name a pro sports team mascot after a racial slander of said extinguished race. It's not about political correctness, it's about manners.

[Lil Bit Special]

if they dont like it, they can go back to where they came from...

[Lil Bit Special]

of course you wouldn't mind, white people weren't systematically killed.

it's not just a word.

It's a mascot of a team in the nation's capital - a nation that waged systematic genocide against an entire race.

It would be like a team in Berlin calling themselves the Jewbags. or a team in Serbia calling themselves the Dirty Croats. It's more than insensitive it's downright ignorant.

quick rule of thumb: if a government commits genocide it's in bad taste to name a pro sports team mascot after a racial slander of said extinguished race. It's not about political correctness, it's about manners.

Its not like they named the team last week. They have had this name since 1933, and it was a take off their previous name The Boston Braves.

If there was such a problem, maybe they should have done something about it before the PC police came to town and everyone became such bleeding heart pussies.

They dont advocate killing Native Americans. They dont advocate going around and calling Native Americans "redskins". Its a name. Its a word. Words only hurt when you allow them to.

[Lil Bit Special]

Joyce Howard Price, THE WASHINGTON TIMES

25-SEP-04

Ninety percent of American Indians say the name Washington Redskins does not offend them, according to a new national survey.

Only 9 percent of polled Indians say they find the name of Washington's professional football team "offensive," according to the results of the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey. The other 1 percent did not respond.

"I thought more people would have had" problems with the name, said Adam Clymer, political director of the survey, which questioned more than 65,000 Americans of all races and ethnic groups between Oct. 7, 2003, and Sept. 20, 2004.

Mr. Clymer, formerly a reporter for the New York Times and other newspapers, says it was his idea to ask Americans polled who identified themselves as American Indians or Native Americans if they objected to the team name Redskins, a moniker that many Indian leaders and activists have said is offensive.

But Redskins' owner Daniel Snyder has insisted the team will keep the name it has had since 1933, when it was in Boston. The Redskins moved to Washington four years later.

A total of 768 persons from all 48 continental states interviewed in the Annenberg election survey identified themselves as Indians or Native Americans, slightly more than 1 percent of the survey sample and about the same percentage of Indians as counted in the census.

The question was phrased: "The professional football team in Washington calls itself the Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn't it bother you?"

Data showed that 8 percent of men and 9 percent of women found the name offensive, while 90 percent of each sex said it did not bother them.

Those having more education, higher incomes and being younger and "politically liberal" were more likely to dislike the name than those whose education and income levels were lower, who were older, or who described themselves as "moderate" or "conservative" politically.

For example, 14 percent of those who called themselves liberal said they found the name offensive, compared with 6 percent of conservatives and 9 percent of moderates. Yet, even 85 percent of self-identified liberal Indians said the name did not bother them.

The poll had a margin of error of 2 percentage points.

Karl Swanson, spokesman for the Washington Redskins, said the new poll "confirms what other surveys have consistently showed."

The findings in the Annenberg Election Survey support those of a poll that Sports Illustrated conducted in 2002.

Asked whether they were offended by the name Redskins, 75 percent of American Indians in that poll said they were not. Even among those Indians who live on reservations, 62 percent said they were not offended.

Vernon Bellecourt, president of the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and the Media, said he believes both the Anneberg and Sports Illustrated poll are "flawed."

Mr. Bellecourt, a Chippewa who also is an executive committee member of the American Indian Movement, said he suspects about only about 2 percent to 3 percent of those polled who describe themselves as Native American are correct.

He cited two factors he believes contribute to confusion in this area.

"White persons suffer a real identity crisis, and they romanticize with us mythically. And a white person always will say, 'I'm part Indian and I don't object to the name, Redskins,'" he said.

In addition, Mr. Bellecourt said "about half" of those who claim to be Native Americans wrongly think they are, because "they were born in America."

Mr. Bellecourt says he feels confident "almost 100 percent of Native Americans totally object to our continued use as mascots for America's fun and games."

"Redskins is a slur, and there's a scent of racism in the District of Columbia" with that team name, he said.

He said Indian activists remain committed to eliminating that name and those of other teams that use tribal names such as Seminoles and Illini or call themselves Braves, Indians, or "Savages" or "Injuns."

Wait... so they polled people who arent Indians because they thought they were born in America? Oh please. Maybe the study was done right... but no, they cant accept that, it would go against their cause.

Again, they need a redskinned Al Sharpton.

[Lil Bit Special]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/redskins/2004-09-24-redskins-indians-poll_x.htm

Poll finds few Indians offended by Washington Redskins name

WASHINGTON (AP)

[bitonti]

If there was such a problem, maybe they should have done something about it before the PC police came to town and everyone became such bleeding heart pussies.

They dont advocate killing Native Americans. They dont advocate going around and calling Native Americans "redskins". Its a name. Its a word. Words only hurt when you allow them to.

If you aren't legitimately decended from Native Americans, or at least are willing to put yourself into the shoes of another man, then you really have no concept of what you are talking about.

It's very easy for us, the decendants of people who voluntarily chose to leave their homelands to say "toughen up" or "get over it" - but just like how Woody Johnson is benefitting from the good fortune of his ancestors, so too Native Americans (and other groups) are hindered by the misfortunes of their ancestors.

[dbatesman]

How about one called the Atlanta Crackers?

lolza

[Lil Bit Special]

If you aren't legitimately decended from Native Americans, or at least are willing to put yourself into the shoes of another man, then you really have no concept of what you are talking about.

It's very easy for us, the decendants of people who voluntarily chose to leave their homelands to say "toughen up" or "get over it" - but just like how Woody Johnson is benefitting from the good fortune of his ancestors, so too Native Americans (and other groups) are hindered by the misfortunes of their ancestors.

Oh please stop it with that garbage. This didnt just recently happen. It happened a long time ago. Its over with. Move on.

Yes its a sh!tty time in our nations history and not something to be proud of. But there is no reason why people of TODAY cannot move on with their lives and put this behind them. NO REASON. Only people who want to wallow in self pity bring this crap up.

Only people who want attention bring this up.

Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop blaming others and start accepting responsibility. Then the native americans can finally move on.

[bitonti]

Oh please stop it with that garbage. This didnt just recently happen. It happened a long time ago. Its over with. Move on.

Yes its a sh!tty time in our nations history and not something to be proud of. But there is no reason why people of TODAY cannot move on with their lives and put this behind them. NO REASON. Only people who want to wallow in self pity bring this crap up.

Only people who want attention bring this up.

Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop blaming others and start accepting responsibility. Then the native americans can finally move on.

your perspective is such that "moving on" is easy. I don't know you but I'd bet money your ancestors chose to come to this country. You are literally decended from champion "movers on" - so am I to be honest.

but from the perspective of those legitimately decended from Natives, it's not that easy. You can rail on about it all you want but you don't really understand the situation fully. YOu understand it from your perspective, which is that of a person accustomed to moving on.

if you think that I am wrong about that, my response is why haven't people moved on, if it's so easy to do? If it's like snapping the fingers? the proof is in the pudding, some people are equipped to move on, and some people aren't.

I can't imagine what it would be like to look at an entire swath of land, realize it was stolen from my ancestors, and then decide to move on. oh well. not that important i guess.

[GangGreen]

Oh please stop it with that garbage. This didnt just recently happen. It happened a long time ago. Its over with. Move on.

Yes its a sh!tty time in our nations history and not something to be proud of. But there is no reason why people of TODAY cannot move on with their lives and put this behind them. NO REASON. Only people who want to wallow in self pity bring this crap up.

Only people who want attention bring this up.

Everyone is responsible for themselves. Stop blaming others and start accepting responsibility. Then the native americans can finally move on.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it myself any better.

[MasonJet]

Where do you guys get this idea that Native Americans can't "move on?' Where do you get the idea that all of them even care about things like this? You talk about it like you personally know many of them and that seems unlikely.

My guess is most Native Americans, especially those living on reservations, don't even know what baseball or football are. They probably spend most of their lives concerned with the fact that so many are alcoholic and suicidal.

You also make it seem like it's so easy to for Native Americans to just uproot themselves, leave their families and their cultures and everything they believe in just to live up to the standards of white people. My guess is that some of them would actually like to able to live respectable lives without having to forget about their culture and their past.

[GangGreen]

You know what, I'm not even going to talk to you. You're too ignorant and you don't get what we're trying to say.

[MasonJet]

You know what, I'm not even going to talk to you. You're too ignorant and you don't get what we're trying to say.

LOL. I'm the ignorant one. That's a good one.

[bitonti]

Maybe after the US government apologizes, the "move on" can occur more easily

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=sj110-4

[flgreen]

The unfortunate thing is almost every minority group that has entered the country has experienced varying degrees of racism, discrimination, and slavery under different names. Just a few examples that I happen to know about with out doing any real research. (I'm very lazy)

The Chinese....A great deal of them were sold by warlords in China to the rail roads to help build them. They were in fact slaves. After the Railroads were completed, many of them were outright killed, or settled in places that they had almost no chance to survive in. Much like the Indians, except they had a higher mortality rate.

The Irish....(oh, oh here goes the idea that no white people were brought here against their will) The early Irish were brought here in two waves, one before the civil war, and one after. They were victims of an oppressive invader, the English. They were forbidden to own land in their own country. They were mostly tenants, that were required to pay a monster percentage of their crops to the land lords. When the potato famines hit, and the land was no longer productive, their debts were sold, most to American textile owners in the North East USA. That's right NY. Now they weren't sold, their debts were. At a ridiculous interest rate that was impossible to repay. All members of the family were required to work, regardless of age. The problem was, if they didn't work, they were put in a very nasty place, children and all, called debtors prison, where they died from starvation or disease. They were slaves, long after the Declaration Proclamation.. Go look at post turn of the century want ads in the NY Times. Ad after AD for jobs said "Irish need not apply"

Southerners after the Civil War were given somewhat the same treatment as the Irish, who many of them were, who had fled the North before the war to escape the slavery of the Northern Textile mills. They were victims of the Carpet bagers.

Today many Indians and Pakistani's are brought here as indentured servants. You often see them work in convience stores. They are often sold by members of their own families, then must come here to pay off debts they will never be able to pay off.

Many Migrant farmers are treated the same way

I'm sure there are dozens more I just don't know about. Not saying it is right, just the way it was, and is.

[DaBrick Wall]

Where do you guys get this idea that Native Americans can't "move on?' Where do you get the idea that all of them even care about things like this? You talk about it like you personally know many of them and that seems unlikely.

My guess is most Native Americans, especially those living on reservations, don't even know what baseball or football are. They probably spend most of their lives concerned with the fact that so many are alcoholic and suicidal.

You also make it seem like it's so easy to for Native Americans to just uproot themselves, leave their families and their cultures and everything they believe in just to live up to the standards of white people. My guess is that some of them would actually like to able to live respectable lives without having to forget about their culture and their past.

QFT. That's the problem with the majority of people who say those things about minority groups. They think they know everything and they don't.

[Lil Bit Special]

Where do you guys get this idea that Native Americans can't "move on?' Where do you get the idea that all of them even care about things like this? You talk about it like you personally know many of them and that seems unlikely.

My guess is most Native Americans, especially those living on reservations, don't even know what baseball or football are. They probably spend most of their lives concerned with the fact that so many are alcoholic and suicidal.

You also make it seem like it's so easy to for Native Americans to just uproot themselves, leave their families and their cultures and everything they believe in just to live up to the standards of white people. My guess is that some of them would actually like to able to live respectable lives without having to forget about their culture and their past.

You're joking right? Native Americans dont know what's going on in this country? Oh please. They all know what is going on in this country. They arent secluded and kept away. They arent amish living in the 1700's. They know exactly what is going on.

I never asked any of them to leave their families. They can live good lives without ever leaving their land. And I never asked them to live like white people, just people who dont sit around drinking and blaming everyone else for their problems.

There are many successful native americans who didnt have to give up their heritage. But its a lot easier to sit on their ass and do nothing and complain how bad they have it.

Every single person in this country has the resources available to them to live a successful and happy life. Those that choose not to pursue education and betterment of themselves or their people are idiots. Stop defending their laziness and stupidity. Demand more out of people.

[Lil Bit Special]

QFT. That's the problem with the majority of people who say those things about minority groups. They think they know everything and they don't.

Quoted for truth? Thats the dumbest thing I've read here in a long time.

How difficult is it for anyone in this country to get up every day and go to school to get an education?

How difficult is it for anyone in this country to get up every day and go to work?

It isnt. We have so many resources available to everyone to help them lead good lives.

But unfortunately they choose to sit on their ass, do drugs, drink, have babies and commit crimes.

It pisses me off the woman who lives downstairs from me lives off of the government instead of getting off her fat ass and make something of herself. But she wont because we have people willing to let her do nothing.

It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with people choosing to be lazy and stupid and not taking responsibility. It is a shame that the minority community chooses to do drugs and commit crimes instead of banding together and taking over this country. If they just went to school, stopped doing drugs, stopped having babies outside of marriage, and stopped committing crimes they could take over this country. White people dont hate blacks, hispanics, native americans, etc. We just want people to live like human beings and not be savages. Is that too much to ask? Really, is it?

Stop making excuses. Stop blaming whitey. Get off your collective asses and make something of yourself. Stop waiting for the next handout that will never get you out of your self-dug hole.

[Lil Bit Special]

your perspective is such that "moving on" is easy. I don't know you but I'd bet money your ancestors chose to come to this country. You are literally decended from champion "movers on" - so am I to be honest.

but from the perspective of those legitimately decended from Natives, it's not that easy. You can rail on about it all you want but you don't really understand the situation fully. YOu understand it from your perspective, which is that of a person accustomed to moving on.

if you think that I am wrong about that, my response is why haven't people moved on, if it's so easy to do? If it's like snapping the fingers? the proof is in the pudding, some people are equipped to move on, and some people aren't.

I can't imagine what it would be like to look at an entire swath of land, realize it was stolen from my ancestors, and then decide to move on. oh well. not that important i guess.

People dont move on because they choose to not move on. People do that all the time. Friends mother is still a headcase because of a divorce 10 years ago. Why does she hold onto it? I dont know, but it does no good sitting and wallowing in pity that things will change.

If native americans cared about themselves and their people they would move on. But they dont because our tax dollars are fed to them to help them.. When given free money and no incentive to move on, why should they?

People should never forget history. Moving on doesnt mean forgetting. Moving on is realizing something happened, accepting it happened,

Best advice I ever got in my life was from my father. When I almost failed out of college after my 1st semester sophmore year, I expected him to yell and scream at me for wasting his money. I was scared of what was going to happen. Instead of yelling and screaming and carrying on, he spoke to me in a calm voice and said: what happened happened. You cant change what occured. Learn from your mistakes and move on. You cant change the past, but you can have an affect on your future.

And thats the way I handle every difficult moment in life. Car accident: cant change what happened, so learn from it to avoid it in the future. Fired from a job: Cant change that. Get into debt and screwing up my credit: cant go back and erase what happened, so do what I have to do to fix it.

Anyone in this country has the ability and resources to become great. Those that choose to not pursue that shouldnt be rewarded, but humiliated.

And since we've gone so far off course and heading for the danger zone, I'm moving on from this. Only advice I give to everyone is to stop playing victim and start demanding more out of yourself, family, friends, community. Stop waiting for someone else to fix your problems because they wont.

[MasonJet]

You're joking right? Native Americans dont know what's going on in this country? Oh please. They all know what is going on in this country. They arent secluded and kept away. They arent amish living in the 1700's. They know exactly what is going on.

I never asked any of them to leave their families. They can live good lives without ever leaving their land. And I never asked them to live like white people, just people who dont sit around drinking and blaming everyone else for their problems.

There are many successful native americans who didnt have to give up their heritage. But its a lot easier to sit on their ass and do nothing and complain how bad they have it.

Every single person in this country has the resources available to them to live a successful and happy life. Those that choose not to pursue education and betterment of themselves or their people are idiots. Stop defending their laziness and stupidity. Demand more out of people.

So I'm guessing you know a lot of Native Americans and how they live their lives? Do you really not realize how ridiculous you sound when you're blabbering about people doing this or doing that when you probably have no idea what they are doing or what they think. If you actually know any people who are acting like this, then fine, but since there almost no Native Americans in Massachusetts, I severely doubt that you do.

And that last paragraph puts way too much stock in the Horatio Alger myth. There are plenty of people in this country who work their ass off everyday and barely have enough money for food and housing. Believe it or not, there are people who do everything "right" and hardly live successful and happy lives.

Federal policy towards Native Americans has very gradually improved over the decades, but we were still implementing termination policies into the 50's and 60's.

But my main problem is that you're acting like you know a ton of Native Americans and that you know exactly what they think and act. And that just screams BS to me.

[Lil Bit Special]

So I'm guessing you know a lot of Native Americans and how they live their lives? Do you really not realize how ridiculous you sound when you're blabbering about people doing this or doing that when you probably have no idea what they are doing or what they think. If you actually know any people who are acting like this, then fine, but since there almost no Native Americans in Massachusetts, I severely doubt that you do.

And that last paragraph puts way too much stock in the Horatio Alger myth. There are plenty of people in this country who work their ass off everyday and barely have enough money for food and housing. Believe it or not, there are people who do everything "right" and hardly live successful and happy lives.

Federal policy towards Native Americans has very gradually improved over the decades, but we were still implementing termination policies into the 50's and 60's.

But my main problem is that you're acting like you know a ton of Native Americans and that you know exactly what they think and act. And that just screams BS to me.

I never claimed I knew what they do. But its pretty easy to see they do not do a lot when they get over 10 billion in funding and still have lousy education, lousy healthcare, lousy infrastructure, and lousy lives.

I dont understand this thinking that you can only discuss something only if your intimately involved in it. Thats bullcrap. There is enough information out there to give you an idea of what people are and arent doing. I doubt Im far off on my belief that they act like other minorities in this country.

Working hard doesnt always lead to a happy and successful life. Sitting on one's ass waiting for the next handout and blaming everyone else for their problems never leads to a happy and successful life.

Lets continue throwing money at the problem that will never get fixed. Lets continue to make excuses and place blame on the wrong place.

I want them to succeed. I want all americans, native or imported, to succeed. It is vital for our country's survival that every american pursue excellence, yet we accept mediocrity. why? why do we settle for less? Because its easier to sit and bitch and moan instead of actually doing something and holding people accountable? Its a disgrace how much money we waste every year on ducttaping the problem instead of finding the cure.

I know we think differently about these things, and I know nothing is as simple as I wish, nor as difficult as people make it out to be. But we both want the same thing: people living a good life free from poverty and having good healthcare and education. We just differ on how to get there.