CrazyCarl40 Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 14-5. League leading ERA. Been consistent all season long. Don't see why not. If he keeps it up over the last 2 months of the season he might be close to 20 wins. So glad the Sox didn't deal him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 1st off you gotta be kidding me...CLIFF LEE > anyone else 2-Cy C Sabathia > 3-why not Mariano? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 No, but I really wish Ham posted on this board so I could feed that egomaniac his crow anyway. I like Buchholz almost as much as I like Lester. The difference is that Lester defeated cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 1st off you gotta be kidding me...CLIFF LEE > anyone else 2-Cy C Sabathia > 3-why not Mariano? 1. Lee is 10-6 with a 2.77 ERA. Buchholz is 14-5 with a 2.36. 2. Not this year. Too many pitcher performing better. CC has been good, but not dominant. 3. Could be, but closers aren't usually in the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 cliff lee's innings and WHIP (plus lack of walking people) is FAR more impressive than Bucholz's lower ERA and less innings pitched and CC has to be in there because his team will win the AL East (and WS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Clay Buccolz: 14-5, 133.1 IP in 21 starts, 2.36 ERA, 1.193 WHIP Lee: 10-6, 169 IP in 21 starts, 2.77 ERA, 0.947 WHIP Lester 13-7, 161 IP in 24 starts, 2.80 ERA, 1.130 WHIP Sabathia: 16-5, 181.2 IP in 26 starts, 3.12 ERA, 1.244 WHIP my vote EASILY goes for Lee...he sh*ts on the other 3 and as you can notice he has 35 more innings in the same amount of 21 starts.....that adds up a lot whne you don't need those 35 innings going to Manny Delcarman's bum a$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 cliff lee's WHIP (plus lack of walking people) is FAR more impressive t LOL This is like saying Bucholz ERA (plus lack of giving up runs) Blackout is the department of redundancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 I'd vote for Lee. He is by far the best of the bunch imo....but if CC wins 20+ and the Yanks win the division he'll probably get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Buchholz has been tremendously lucky in his W-L record this year. He has 14 wins and 14 quality starts.... Aside from his K rate, his numbers are no better than Carl Pavano's. His xFIP is 4.22 and his E-F (ERA minus FIP) is the 3rd "luckiest" in the AL. Ignore the most meaningless barometer of pitching ability (W-L record) and Buchholz isn't even in the top 5 SP's in the AL this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Buchholz has been tremendously lucky in his W-L record this year. He has 14 wins and 14 quality starts.... Aside from his K rate, his numbers are no better than Carl Pavano's. His xFIP is 4.22 and his E-F (ERA minus FIP) is the 3rd "luckiest" in the AL. Ignore the most meaningless barometer of pitching ability (W-L record) and Buchholz isn't even in the top 5 SP's in the AL this year. A 2.36 ERA is nothing to sneeze at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 A 2.36 ERA is nothing to sneeze at. All ERA's are not created equal. The odds are not in the favor of a guy who pitches to contact maintaining said ERA, especially not when his BABIP is 30 points below his (albeit short) career mark, as well as John Lester 's- a better pitcher with the same fielders behind him. His strand rate is also one of the highest in the league and a marked improvement over past seasons. I can say with confidence that despite Buchholz having "better" conventional numbers, guys like Francisco Liriano, Felix Hernandez, and Jered Weaver have been the better pitchers this season - not to mention Lester, Lee, Sabathia, Price.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 All ERA's are not created equal. The odds are not in the favor of a guy who pitches to contact maintaining said ERA, especially not when his BABIP is 30 points below his (albeit short) career mark, as well as John Lester 's- a better pitcher with the same fielders behind him. His strand rate is also one of the highest in the league and a marked improvement over past seasons. I can say with confidence that despite Buchholz having "better" conventional numbers, guys like Francisco Liriano, Felix Hernandez, and Jered Weaver have been the better pitchers this season - not to mention Lester, Lee, Sabathia, Price.... Awards are not presented based on a players ability to "maintain" their mark. Awards are given on what the mark is. I am not making a determination who should be the AL Cy winner should be,but a 2.36 ERA is pretty good. Not saying whether he can hold it either, as that is just guesswork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Awards are not presented based on a players ability to "maintain" their mark. Awards are given on what the mark is. I am not making a determination who should be the AL Cy winner should be,but a 2.36 ERA is pretty good. Not saying whether he can hold it either, as that is just guesswork. That's fine, but I'd like to think that in this day and age, at least a few of the baseball writers give credence to some of the advanced metrics available when comparing players. In 2008, Matsuzaka went 18-3 with a .290 ERA (3rd in AL) and finished 4th in the Cy Young voting. In reality, his E-F suggests he was the 2nd luckiest pitcher in the AL in ERA and his xFIP was near the bottom of the league. A 40-point drop in BABIP and a 7% increase in strand rate from the previous year show how he managed such great numbers. How he finished ahead of Mussina, in a season when he walked 94 batters (to only 154 K's), is baffling. I agree that if Buchholz finishes with 20 wins and a league-leading ERA, it'll be tough to argue against him, no matter how much luck was a factor. I just don't think he'll maintain it and, despite the fact that I don't agree with the conventional "wisdom", pitching for a non-playoff team will knock him down a peg as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCarl40 Posted August 18, 2010 Author Share Posted August 18, 2010 Advanced metrics. Luck. Whatever happened to the results on the field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 18, 2010 Share Posted August 18, 2010 Advanced metrics. Luck. Whatever happened to the results on the field? It's fairly obvious that Buchholz isn't a top 5 pitcher this year. It's a nice season from a growing young pitcher...Cliff Lee should run away with the Cy Young but knowing the voters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 1st off you gotta be kidding me...CLIFF LEE > anyone else 2-Cy C Sabathia > 3-why not Mariano? I agree with Lee hehas been the best pitcher int he AL. However, through no fault of his own, he has only 10 wins with 6+ weeks left. I would say it is Price leading the pack right now with Clay, CC and Lee trailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 Advanced metrics. Luck. Whatever happened to the results on the field? People - well, some people at least - discovered that probability, variance, and other mathematical factors can be used to gauge performance beyond a bunch of statistics (ie. Wins, ERA) that do not take into account fielding, park factors, run support, chance, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 I agree with Lee hehas been the best pitcher int he AL. However, through no fault of his own, he has only 10 wins with 6+ weeks left. I would say it is Price leading the pack right now with Clay, CC and Lee trailing. If you want to throw out Wins, then Felix Hernandez has easily been a top-3 pitcher this season. I obviously realize that a guy who only has 8 wins on August 18th is not going to win the Cy Young, but I just wanted to acknowledge that he's been phenomenal this season on a team that doesn't score any runs. Felix is getting the least run support of any pitcher in the AL, at 3.76 runs per start. Cliff Lee is ranked 5th in least run support, at 4.69 runs per game. Buchholz? He's ranked 10th in most run support in the AL at 7.49 runs per game. Price and Sabathia are 14th and 15th respectively, both getting a healthy 7+ runs per game. This is why Wins are the biggest bullsh*t stat when it comes to grading pitching performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 only a true jackass would argue Ciff LEe does not deserve the CYA oh wait...why am I not surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 If you want to throw out Wins, then Felix Hernandez has easily been a top-3 pitcher this season. I obviously realize that a guy who only has 8 wins on August 18th is not going to win the Cy Young, but I just wanted to acknowledge that he's been phenomenal this season on a team that doesn't score any runs. Felix is getting the least run support of any pitcher in the AL, at 3.76 runs per start. Cliff Lee is ranked 5th in least run support, at 4.69 runs per game. Buchholz? He's ranked 10th in most run support in the AL at 7.49 runs per game. Price and Sabathia are 14th and 15th respectively, both getting a healthy 7+ runs per game. This is why Wins are the biggest bullsh*t stat when it comes to grading pitching performance. I agree. CC is the case in point. Greinke's 16 wins was the lowest win total for a CY Young award winning starter in a non-strike year. Greinke was still 7th, but led or was Top 5 in most of the other major categories (ERA, Ks, CGs). Lee is not even in the Top 20 for wins. Is he the best? Yes. Do I think the voters will overlook his win total? I do not know. He still has some time to get into the 16-17 win range. If he does and does not get anymore ND, I think he will win. I can easily see CC and Price getting to or close to 20 wins and wooing voters with that number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 Cliff Lee would have to have some BAD starts to not win Price would not be a bad candidate either.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 19, 2010 Share Posted August 19, 2010 I agree. CC is the case in point. Greinke's 16 wins was the lowest win total for a CY Young award winning starter in a non-strike year. Greinke was still 7th, but led or was Top 5 in most of the other major categories (ERA, Ks, CGs). Lee is not even in the Top 20 for wins. Is he the best? Yes. Do I think the voters will overlook his win total? I do not know. He still has some time to get into the 16-17 win range. If he does and does not get anymore ND, I think he will win. I can easily see CC and Price getting to or close to 20 wins and wooing voters with that number. If Lee gets 16+ wins, maintaining his other numbers and doesn't win, it would be a travesty. Hell, I think fantasy baseball has a better system of ranking starting pitchers than the BBWA. Here are the current AL rankings in a standard 5x5 league: Cliff Lee Felix Hernandez Jered Weaver Jon Lester Trevor Cahill CC Sabathia Carl Pavano David Price John Danks Clay Buchholz Now I'm not saying that's the order I would necessarily rank them, but I certainly agree with #1 and with Buchholz not being in the top-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Lee, King Felix and Vargas and the Mariners are 25 game sunder .500? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Lee, King Felix and Vargas and the Mariners are 25 game sunder .500? Their offense is putrid... a team OPS of .644 - over 140 points lower than the league-leading Red Sox. In fact, the only guy with 100+ AB's on Boston with an OPS less than .644 is Hermida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 14-5. League leading ERA. Been consistent all season long. Don't see why not. If he keeps it up over the last 2 months of the season he might be close to 20 wins. So glad the Sox didn't deal him. Since the Red Sox aren't in contention this year most teams have been resting their starters against them. The numbers are skewed as a result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFSIKH Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 Since the Red Sox aren't in contention this year most teams have been resting their starters against them. The numbers are skewed as a result. Yeah, but the Sawx suck right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Another start and yet another time Ham's level of douche is proven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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