The Pittsburgh Pirates made 29 million

[Matt39]

And the Yankees are the problem?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/sp...es.html?src=mv

Major League Baseball is narrowing down the search for who was behind the leaks of team financial reports that reveal how profitable the Pittsburgh Pirates are despite an 18-year string of losing records, and how much they, the Florida Marlins and the Tampa Bay Rays receive in revenue-sharing from wealthier clubs, according to a baseball executive who was not authorized to speak publicly.

The Pirates’ financial statements were detailed Sunday by The Associated Press, and the statements of the Marlins, the Rays, the Seattle Mariners and the Los Angeles Angels were posted Monday by Deadspin.com.

Major League Baseball officials declined to comment.

But David P. Samson, the president of the Marlins, said in a conference call that the release of the documents “was a breach of fiduciary obligation and duty by the leaking party.”

He added, “It’s a crime, and it will be followed up intensely by Major League Baseball and its member clubs.”

Access to the teams’ audited financial statements is usually limited to the commissioner’s office; baseball’s lead bankers, Bank of America and JPMorgan Chase; and two accounting firms, Ernst & Young and PricewaterhouseCoopers. But Samson said that “in the course of business, other entities have access.” Teams do not see one another’s financial reports, but receive a general accounting of where they rank compared with the other 29 clubs in profitability.

The leaking of team financial reports is a rarity. Few sports teams are publicly owned like the Green Bay Packers, who releases their financial results annually, and are under no obligation to make their results public. But sometimes, aspects of their profits and losses are revealed when they are sold or are involved in a lawsuit or a bankruptcy.

“If I were Major League Baseball, I’d be much more concerned if the Yankees’ numbers were released,” said Vince Gennaro, the author of “Diamond Dollars: The Economics of Winning in Baseball” and a consultant to several M.L.B. teams. “It would present a dramatic disparity and you’d begin to wonder how you can retain an economic structure that allows teams to earn such disparate amounts of money.”

Had the statements provided only what the Rays, the Marlins and the Pirates received in revenue sharing, the leaks might be traced to someone disgruntled with the system of the higher-revenue clubs providing financial aid to those with lower revenue. But the leaked reports showed three teams that received money (the Marlins, the Rays and the Pirates) and two teams that paid into the pool (the Angels and the Mariners).

“There is a group of people ticked off that revenue-sharing money isn’t being used to put a product out on the field, but in the owners’ pockets and that would be parties related to the players,” said Marc Ganis, a sports industry consultant. “But I don’t think the union has access to the audited financials.”

The documents offer various glimpses into the generally rosy financial state of five teams, regardless of their records.

¶The Pirates earned $29.4 million in 2007 and 2008 — taking $69.3 million in revenue sharing at the same time. Although the Pirates have the lowest team payroll in baseball, they have chosen to use revenue sharing for player development, and they spent $44.3 million in 2007 and 2008. “Even when we’re winning, we will be a revenue-sharing recipient,” Frank Coonelly, the Pirates’ president, told the A.P.

¶The Marlins received nearly $92 million in revenue sharing in 2008 and 2009, the years detailed in the statements posted on Deadspin.com, while producing net income of $33 million in those years. The importance of the revenue-sharing money is underscored by the team’s gate receipts in 2008 ($20.9 million) and 2009 ($21.5 million). The franchise was paid only $16.7 million in local media revenue last year, compared with the $45.9 million the Angels were paid that year and the $64.3 million that the Mariners received in 2008.

Samson said the Marlins’ decision to maintain a modest payroll and trade a star like Miguel Cabrera after the 2007 season was to save money to help finance its $645 million, retractable-roof ballpark, which is to open in 2012. The team must pay about one-quarter of the cost, with Miami and Miami-Dade County providing the rest. “We could have had Cabrera, but no ballpark,” he said. “That’s what I tell fans.”

Earlier this year, the Marlins agreed to let baseball and the players’ union monitor their finances for three years to make sure that that they are spending the proceeds from revenue sharing on player development and salaries. The agreement forestalled a potential grievance by the union.

¶The Rays received $74 million in revenue sharing in 2007 and 2008, and total net income in those years of a little more than $15 million. The effect of the Rays’ playing in the 2008 World Series is evident in the $17.7 million in postseason receipts it collected, increasing total revenue that season to $160.1 million.

¶The Angels paid $31 million into the revenue-sharing pool in 2008 and 2009; the Mariners paid a little more than $24 million in 2007 and 2008. The Angels had combined earnings of $17.8 million in the two years covered in the reports; the Mariners lost $4.5 million in 2008 after showing a $17.9 million profit in 2007.

The leaked documents were no more than a disappointment to Samson. They back the team’s case for its much-delayed ballpark. The information, he said, “basically confirms what we’ve said about how we’ve operated the team, with an eye toward one thing: that baseball would be secure in South Florida.”

[Scott Dierking]

And the Yankees are the problem?

For a anybody that cares to listen, the majority say it is not the Yankees who are the problem, but the SYSTEM is the problem.

And your title does not come close to getting the story right

[Matt39]

For a anybody that cares to listen, the majority say it is not the Yankees who are the problem, but the SYSTEM is the problem.

And your title does not come close to getting the story right

How so? The owners of small market teams are pocketing profits rather than putting into the product on the field. Not that this is much of a revelation, but its nice to see it in writing.

[Scott Dierking]

How so? The owners of small market teams are pocketing profits rather than putting into the product on the field. Not that this is much of a revelation, but its nice to see it in writing.

tell me where it says the Pirates made 29 mill last year

[Matt39]

tell me where it says the Pirates made 29 mill last year

My fault. that was 2007-08

Here are the documents. The Pirates have ownership to blame for the sh*t product

http://deadspin.com/5615096/mlb-confidential-the-financial-documents-baseball-doesnt-want-you-to-see-part-1

[Scott Dierking]

My fault. that was 2007-08

Here are the documents. The Pirates have ownership is to blame for the sh*t product

http://deadspin.com/5615096/mlb-confidential-the-financial-documents-baseball-doesnt-want-you-to-see-part-1

To make 14 million dollars, for a company as large as the Pirates, is not a tremendous amount of money to make. Very marginal in fact.

Again, the problem is not so much the clubs themselves, but the system.

[THE ILK]

The Pirates owners are not even trying, that's also part of the problem.

[Scott Dierking]

The Pirates owners are not even trying, that's also part of the problem.

Is "trying" supposed to equate to signing "high level" free agents. that if they go bust, it sets a franchise like theirs back 5 years? Is that supposed to be "trying"?

Or are they trying to build their scouting and minor systems to feed the club?

I don't know the answers either.

[THE ILK]

Is "trying" supposed to equate to signing "high level" free agents. that if they go bust, it sets a franchise like theirs back 5 years? Is that supposed to be "trying"?

Or are they trying to build their scouting and minor systems to feed the club?

I don't know the answers either.

How many home runs do their 3 and 4 hitters have?

That kind of not trying.

Then again the Mets are trying and look at them, so what do I know.

[Scott Dierking]

How many home runs do their 3 and 4 hitters have?

That kind of not trying.

Then again the Mets are trying and look at them, so what do I know.

Are you having a discussion about stats or having a discussion about running a baseball business in a small market.

You seem to be mixing the 2 up. The Toronto Blue Jays have more home runs than any other team, but that has nothing to do with the manner they run their business.

[THE ILK]

Are you having a discussion about stats or having a discussion about running a baseball business in a small market.

You seem to be mixing the 2 up. The Toronto Blue Jays have more home runs than any other team, but that has nothing to do with the manner they run their business.

Business, I don't think the Pirates are trying to get/develop players that put up decent stats.

[Scott Dierking]

Business, I don't think the Pirates are trying to get/develop players that put up decent stats.

Through Free agency or draft development?

[THE ILK]

Through Free agency or draft development?

Both.

[Scott Dierking]

Both.

Do you think the Pirates would have liked to keep Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla, Andy Vanslyke, Jason Bay, et al?

[THE ILK]

Do you think the Pirates would have liked to keep Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla, Andy Vanslyke, Jason Bay, et al?

They have been profitable and losing for 18 straight years.

Maybe they should put less in their pockets, maybe they don't want to.

[Scott Dierking]

They have been profitable and losing for 18 straight years.

Maybe they should put less in their pockets, maybe they don't want to.

That report that was published, looked at 2 years.

If you want to look at the true financial health of a company, look at it 5 years running consecutively, not 2 select years. Maybe they are profitable during that time, I don't know. But do not just cherry pick years and say that represents an 18 year window. That is not fair.

And by profitable, they averaged 14.5 mill profit for those 2 select years. That is a pittance in big business, let alone the world of professional sports. If you were to do an EBITDA on that, it would not look pretty to the Pirate ownership.

[THE ILK]

That report that was published, looked at 2 years.

If you want to look at the true financial health of a company, look at it 5 years running consecutively, not 2 select years. Maybe they are profitable during that time, I don't know. But do not just cherry pick years and say that represents an 18 year window. That is not fair.

And by profitable, they averaged 14.5 mill profit for those 2 select years. That is a pittance in big business, let alone the world of professional sports. If you were to do an EBITDA on that, it would not look pretty to the Pirate ownership.

I agree they don't have it easy, but they are pocketing money in instances where they could be trying. (harder at least)

[Scott Dierking]

I agree they don't have it easy, but they are pocketing money in instances where they could be trying. (harder at least)

In all seriousness, let's be very charitable and say they have averaged 14.5 million profit over the last 5 years.

In today's baseball world, what does that really buy them?

What would you do, if you were the Pirates and had 10 million to spend (let's allow them a little profit)?

[THE ILK]

In all seriousness, let's be very charitable and say they have averaged 14.5 million profit over the last 5 years.

In today's baseball world, what does that really buy them?

What would you do, if you were the Pirates and had 10 million to spend (let's allow them a little profit)?

There are reports that they made nearly 40 million, and they also take ownership loans from their profits for more than that. (21.9 mill)

Their payroll is dropping every year and it's the lowest in baseball, I don't know but they should do something.

[Scott Dierking]

There are reports that they made nearly 40 million, and they also take ownership loans from their profits for more than that. (21.9 mill)

Their payroll is dropping every year and it's the lowest in baseball, I don't know but they should do something.

I think you are thinking of the Marlins.

It is easy to tell others how to spend their money.

It would be much more fair to to tell someone how to spend their money, if the playing field was leveled. When one franchise is valued at 1.5 billion, it is hard for one that is valued at say 200 million to compete on the same field.

Simple economics. And the rules of baseball make it any even less fair

[THE ILK]

I think you are thinking of the Marlins.

It is easy to tell others how to spend their money.

It would be much more fair to to tell someone how to spend their money, if the playing field was leveled. When one franchise is valued at 1.5 billion, it is hard for one that is valued at say 200 million to compete on the same field.

Simple economics. And the rules of baseball make it any even less fair

No I'm pretty sure it was the Pirates, and I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

But at the same time, I don't see the Pirates trying, compared to other teams in a similar boat that profit less and put a better product on the field.

[Scott Dierking]

No I'm pretty sure it was the Pirates, and I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

But at the same time, I don't see the Pirates trying, compared to other teams in a similar boat that profit less and put a better product on the field.

In 2007 they traded for Matt Morris (I don't know WHY) who was do about another 13 mill on his contract.

they would up cutting him in the following April and ate 10 mill.

Maybe they are gun shy?

Most other big market clubs-they shake off a 10 mill mistake by burying it (although I wish the Mets would be a little quicker). Remember Kei Igawa and what he cost the Yanks? Think the Pirates could do that?

[THE ILK]

In 2007 they traded for Matt Morris (I don't know WHY) who was do about another 13 mill on his contract.

they would up cutting him in the following April and ate 10 mill.

Maybe they are gun shy?

Most other big market clubs-they shake off a 10 mill mistake by burying it (although I wish the Mets would be a little quicker). Remember Kei Igawa and what he cost the Yanks? Think the Pirates could do that?

Nobody could do what the Yankees could do, and everybody knows that, but this is not about the Yankees.

All I'm saying is there are teams out there pocketing less and putting a better product on the field, so I think the Pirates could do more if they wanted to.

I don't think they are trying to though.

[PFSIKH]

The Pirates owners are not even trying, that's also part of the problem.

They dropped 44 million in player development for those two years. That is not trying?

Again for the 50th bazillonth time, what are they to do with 14 and 15 million respectively? Keep JBay? Overpay for a crap player like Bill Hall? Would those moves get them past the 5th place team much less the 31 games they are behind Cincy? It is not going to make them perennial contenders. Only, developing players will.

Granted, given that the Marlins and Rays spend a little more (Marlins) and a little less (Rays) in player development with far better on field results only means the Pirates are doing a bad job of it. Not that they are not trying.

Scott is right it is the system. The Pirates profit 29 million by receiving 69 million in revenue sharing. WTF? And you wonder why they owners are not compelled to invest more? As I have quoted about a bazillon and one times, as Jesse Ventura said, "these men did not get rich by being stupid."

The system makes more business sense for a small market team to not try too hard. They pocket more revenue versus earning less (more earned revenue = less revenue sharing) and greater financial risk to them.

By making the WS, the Rays profits decreased from 21 million to 14 million. And that is with them making 17 million from their post season run.

The problem is the system. The only way the small market owners can compete and profit is by not spending too much and hoping they get things right in player development.

[THE ILK]

They dropped 44 million in player development for those two years. That is not trying?

Again for the 50th bazillonth time, what are they to do with 14 and 15 million respectively? Keep JBay? Overpay for a crap player like Bill Hall? Would those moves get them past the 5th place team much less the 31 games they are behind Cincy? It is not going to make them perennial contenders. Only, developing players will.

Granted, given that the Marlins and Rays spend a little more (Marlins) and a little less (Rays) in player development with far better on field results only means the Pirates are doing a bad job of it. Not that they are not trying.

Scott is right it is the system. The Pirates profit 29 million by receiving 69 million in revenue sharing. WTF? And you wonder why they owners are not compelled to invest more? As I have quoted about a bazillon and one times, as Jesse Ventura said, "these men did not get rich by being stupid."

The system makes more business sense for a small market team to not try too hard. They pocket more revenue versus earning less (more earned revenue = less revenue sharing) and greater financial risk to them.

By making the WS, the Rays profits decreased from 21 million to 14 million. And that is with them making 17 million from their post season run.

The problem is the system. The only way the small market owners can compete and profit is by not spending too much and hoping they get things right in player development.

You do realize you just staid they are trying and they are not trying too hard there right.

Well that's what I'm saying. I never said the system was good, I said they are not trying and profiting, which is what you just said.

[SenorGato]

You missed the part about the Pirates throwing a ton of money in player development...there's actually alot of talent in that organization now.

The Yankees are seen as a problem because they're the only ones who can shrug off a Kei Igawa. That signing alone could have hurt alot of teams. Alot of organizations have put alot of money into player development...the Yankees fell out of the cycle until they saw that the Red Sox and Rays had blown by alot of teams in coaching up talent.

[shawn306]

Looks like it could get ugly for the Marlins. Especially with a new ballpark coming at the expense of taxpayers.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=All357PcU8amit7bcdOSWMA5nYcB?slug=jp-marlinsfinancials082410

Marlins’ profits came at taxpayer expense

By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports

10 hours, 17 minutes ago

The swindlers who run the Florida Marlins got exposed Monday. They are as bad as anyone on Wall Street, scheming, misleading and ultimately sticking taxpayers with a multibillion-dollar tab. Corporate fraud is alive and well in Major League Baseball.

A look at the leak of the Marlins’ financial information to Deadspin confirmed the long-held belief that the team takes a healthy chunk of MLB-distributed money for profit. Owner Jeffrey Loria and president David Samson for years have contended the Marlins break even financially, the centerpiece fiscal argument that resulted in local governments gifting them a new stadium that will cost generations of taxpayers an estimated $2.4 billion. They said they had no money to do it alone and intimated they would have to move the team without public assistance.

More From Jeff PassanSandberg would be fresh, familiar face for Cubs Aug 23, 2010 Inner peace keys Konerko's surge Aug 22, 2010

Documents revealed Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria misled the public to get a new stadium deal.

In fact, documents show, the Marlins could have paid for a significant amount of the new stadium’s construction themselves and still turned an annual operating profit. Instead, they cried poor to con feckless politicians that sold out their constituents.

The ugliness of the Marlins’ ballpark situation is already apparent, and the building doesn’t open for another 18 months. Somehow a team that listed its operating income as a healthy $37.8 million in 2008 alone swung a deal in which it would pay only $155 million of the $634 million stadium complex. Meanwhile, Miami-Dade County agreed – without the consent of taxpayers – to take $409 million in loans loaded with balloon payments and long grace periods. By 2049, when the debt is due, the county will have paid billions.

Most harrowing is the takeaway that baseball’s biggest welfare case could have funded a much greater portion of the ballpark. In 2009, when the Marlins started spending some of their profits on their portion of the stadium, they still had an operating income of $11.1 million. The team fought to conceal the $48.9 million in profits over the last two years because the revelation would have prompted county commissioners to insist the team provide more funding. Loria, an art dealer with a net worth of hundreds of millions, wouldn’t stand for that. He wanted as much public funding as possible – money that could’ve gone toward education or to save some of the 1,200 jobs the county is cutting this year.

Surely Samson was joking when he called the leak of the Marlins documents and those of five other teams “a crime.” No, the real misdeed occurred when the head of a professional sports franchise misled the public in order to secure money that wasn’t his. When Forbes in 2007 reported the Marlins had the highest operating income in baseball, Samson denied the team profited, saying: “Very often the mistake that’s made is they look at revenue sharing numbers and the team’s payroll and take the difference and see profit without looking at our expenses.”

Well, now we have a look, and it’s clear what happened: The Marlins loaded money into their coffers and held hostage a city afraid of losing a team, then leveraged it into a sweetheart deal like so many teams across baseball during the stadium boom of the last 20 years.

“It’s not that teams need new stadiums, either,” said Neil deMause, whose book “Field of Schemes” blew the lid off ballpark boondoggles. “They need new revenues. It’s really just a bailout. It would be cheaper to just give the teams the money. But then it would just look like a handout. The stadiums have become part of the business model for teams.”

Not nearly enough credit goes to the proliferation of new stadiums for turning the game into a $6 billion-plus business. In case after case, teams built stadiums with a majority of the funding from public sources and today keep nearly all of the profits generated from games. Commissioner Bud Selig traveled city to city, the pied piper of ballparks, urging voters or city councils or whoever held the checkbook to do the right thing. Always left unsaid was his implication: Or else. However idle the threat, it almost always worked.

And it’s still working. Even if Miami isn’t exactly a baseball town – the Marlins are behind the Dolphins and Heat in popularity – Samson believes the new stadium on the old Orange Bowl site will expand the team’s season-ticket base from around 5,000 to 15,000 or 20,000. If-you-build-it-they-will-come is nothing more than a myth, proven false by Pittsburgh and Washington and Cincinnati.

It matters not how sparkling the new stadium is, though the embellishments on the Marlins’ only add to the ridiculousness of the whole project. Guess which of the following is not true:

a. The Marlins procured $5.3 million in funding from the county’s Art in Public Places department and gave $2.5 million of it to pop artist Red Grooms, who will design a piece with pelicans and seagulls and bright colors and abstract shapes and, best of all, animatronic marlins that celebrate home runs.

b. Billy the Marlin will hold nightly karaoke sessions in left field.

c. Behind the catcher will be 58 feet worth of reef-fish-stuffed aquariums built into the backstop.

Marlins team president David Samson listens to closing arguments during a 2008 lawsuit challenging a $3 billion public works financing plan that includes money for a new ballpark.

Sadly, $2.4 billion is not enough to buy mascot sing-alongs.

It is enough to stink. In the annals of bad stadium deals, it’s among the most odious, right alongside the Washington Nationals’ extraction of $611 million from the D.C. city council to get Nationals Park built. The team spent $20 million on a parking garage and pays $5.5 million a year in rent. So desperate was Washington to become the landing spot for the Montreal Expos, it ignored reality – there were no other legitimate options for MLB – and vastly overpaid.

Such sentiments are echoed when looking at the Marlins’ deal. One of the county’s loans is particularly egregious. According to the Miami Herald, J.P. Morgan gave a $91 million note – $80 million of which will go toward construction – that from 2041-47 will cost $118 million per year. In all, the county will spend $1.2 billion to pay off $91 million.

One of the county commissioners who voted against the funding, Katy Sorenson, told the Herald: “It is very expensive money.” The county is banking on inflation making $118 million a relative pittance by the 2040s, by which time Hanley Ramirez(notes) will be social security age.

It’s entirely possible – and quite probable – that the Marlins profited more than $91 million in the three years leading up to the county commissioners’ passing the stadium plan in ’08, even with their games at Sun Life Stadium, supposedly the only thing holding the team back from being able to spend on payroll. The inclination to keep salaries at pathetic levels – a dozen players around baseball each made more in 2006 than the entire Marlins team – went unchecked until last offseason, when MLB finally reprimanded the Marlins for purloining too much of the $75 million or so in revenue sharing and Central Fund monies they receive annually.

It was nothing more than a slap on the wrist. MLB knew the Marlins were saving their money to pay off their stadium debt, which, though prudent, does not support Samson’s contention Monday that “we could have had [Miguel] Cabrera but no ballpark.” That’s more propaganda, more truth-stretching. With the new revenue streams, the Marlins could have kept Cabrera. They essentially sandbagged half a decade worth of games by using their money to cover their $155 million on the stadium’s construction, $35 million of which will be rent payments and some of which likely will be subsidized by naming rights.

Every cent from inside the stadium will end up on the Marlins’ balance sheets. Come 2012, they’ll be free to reap their revenue-sharing, Central Fund and ballpark profits while the county prays enough tourism-tax dollars pour in to help pay off the loans.

“[Owners] simply don’t tell the truth about the finances,” deMause said. “Or if they do, it’s in such a narrow way.”

Take a January 2008 luncheon Tampa Bay Rays president Matt Silverman spoke at in St. Petersburg. According to the St. Petersburg Times, in front of a crowd of businesspeople, Silverman declared: “We’re cash-flow negative.”

The Deadspin documents show the Rays were anything but in the red. In fiscal 2007, which had ended exactly 26 days before Silverman spoke, the Rays’ operating income was $21.7 million. And, if Silverman cares to quibble, the Rays listed $37,626 on the line of “cash and cash equivalents.” While in 2008 the Rays’ earnings dropped to $14,202,206, they didn’t have any kind of a cash-flow problem: Their cash and cash equivalents were $32,521,742.

It brings to mind the famous quote from Paul Beeston, the former president of MLB who now runs the Toronto Blue Jays: “Under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss, and I can get every national accounting firm to agree with me.”

The truth of big business is ugly, and while a peak inside baseball’s sausage factory is fascinating, it’s also sobering. A 37,000-seat, baseball-only stadium is going up in Little Havana right now, and the team that procured it systematically hid the truth from the people whose money they’re using to build it.

During the county commissioners’ stadium tete-a-tetes with the Marlins, they asked time and again for the team to release its financial statements. It was only fair, right? The county was willing to pledge billions of dollars. It deserved to know who would reap the bounty.

The Marlins never budged. They kept everything a secret and set themselves up for a bountiful future and had the gall to grow angry when documents surfaced that should’ve been made public in the first place. They were shown for the swindlers they are.

Unfortunately, it was $2.4 billion too late.

[Blackout]

LMAO at Zippy 2.0 sticking up for the Pirates ownership

this forum is hilarious

[SenorGato]

LMAO at Zippy 2.0 sticking up for the Pirates ownership

this forum is hilarious

You're trolly in nature.

The Pirates have one of the best farms in baseball and have debuted talented like Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata this year. The Dodgers are getting a ton of props for getting Zach Lee to not go to LSU, but the Pirates pulled it off one year earlier with Zach von Rosenburg.

Just because they failed to buy a Sabathia, Burnett, and Tex in the same offseason to carry them to a WS ring doesn't mean they're not trying. Spending money doesn't mean throwing a ton of money at FAs.

That said, there should be a salary floor.

[PFSIKH]

You do realize you just staid they are trying and they are not trying too hard there right.

Well that's what I'm saying. I never said the system was good, I said they are not trying and profiting, which is what you just said.

I said the only way they can compete is by growing their talent like the Rays, Twins and Marlins do. They have tried in that regard.

You said they are not trying because they are pocketing money instead of spending it on retaining players/FA market in order to put a better product on the field.

Again, the system makes more financial sense for clubs like the Pirates to develop their talent pocket the money rather then trying to out spend the big market teams. The harder they try (i.e. spending that 29 million and much more out of pocket) to compete with the mid-market to big market teams, means they earn less in revenue sharing. Bye bye 69 million.

[Sharrow]

Funny, 2008 is when they started turning things around regarding how they did business. The Matt Morris deal was basically the turning point. That was a desperate move by the previous GM to save his job, and obviously it was a disaster. The money spend on Morris was taken directly from the draft and the Pirates passed on the consensus pick (Matt Wieters). Since then they've basically overhauled the whole organization.

[Sharrow]

The Pirates owners are not even trying, that's also part of the problem.

How many home runs do their 3 and 4 hitters have?

That kind of not trying.

Then again the Mets are trying and look at them, so what do I know.

Business, I don't think the Pirates are trying to get/develop players that put up decent stats.

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. F'ing spoiled yankee fans. How much do the Yankees make? I know the they can sign an ace pitcher and a cleanup hitter every single year if they want to, but most other teams don't have that luxury.

$10.8 million of the 2008 profit was distributed to the owner shareholders to pay their income taxes from 2006 and 2007. $5 million went to their new Dominican baseball academy. So not counting any other expenses that weren't considered, it's down to $13.6 million for 2008 and 2009 at the most. Which #3 and #4 hitters should they have signed for a combined $13.6 million per year. You tell me.

Regarding trying to get/develop players. These numbers are from 2008; the Pirates have spent more money on the draft than any other team from 2008-2010. And since 2008 they've been bigger players in Latin America, almost signing Miguel Sano, and just this month signing Luis Heredia.

Now obviously they're more committed to making money than they are winning baseball games. That's a fact. And Pirate fans aren't happy about it, including me. I'd rather whatever money they make be on the field instead of in their pockets, especially when they're fielding such a pitiful team. And it's extremely annoying when they talk and talk and talk about minor league this and farm system that when the only number that matters is the pitiful major league record. But what can they do? Sign one more good player and lose 95 games instead of 100?

The only way they're ever going to compete is by investing more in the draft and international players, and beating other teams with superior scouting and investment in development, which they're doing. Or at least trying to do.

But seriously, the Yankees spent $441 million dollars in FA in 2008. More than the entire National League spent and more than all the other American league teams combined spent; then they win the world series the following year because of it... And Yankees fans are mad cause they think the Pirates made $30 ******* million over a couple years? Are you ******* kidding me? I think I can speak for all Pirate fans when I say GFY to any Yankee fan that thinks the Pirates are what's wrong with MLB.

[THE ILK]

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. F'ing spoiled yankee fans. How much do the Yankees make? I know the they can sign an ace pitcher and a cleanup hitter every single year if they want to, but most other teams don't have that luxury.

$10.8 million of the 2008 profit was distributed to the owner shareholders to pay their income taxes from 2006 and 2007. $5 million went to their new Dominican baseball academy. So not counting any other expenses that weren't considered, it's down to $13.6 million for 2008 and 2009 at the most. Which #3 and #4 hitters should they have signed for a combined $13.6 million per year. You tell me.

Regarding trying to get/develop players. These numbers are from 2008; the Pirates have spent more money on the draft than any other team from 2008-2010. And since 2008 they've been bigger players in Latin America, almost signing Miguel Sano, and just this month signing Luis Heredia.

Now obviously they're more committed to making money than they are winning baseball games. That's a fact. And Pirate fans aren't happy about it, including me. I'd rather whatever money they make be on the field instead of in their pockets, especially when they're fielding such a pitiful team. And it's extremely annoying when they talk and talk and talk about minor league this and farm system that when the only number that matters is the pitiful major league record. But what can they do? Sign one more good player and lose 95 games instead of 100?

The only way they're ever going to compete is by investing more in the draft and international players, and beating other teams with superior scouting and investment in development, which they're doing. Or at least trying to do.

But seriously, the Yankees spent $441 million dollars in FA in 2008. More than the entire National League spent and more than all the other American league teams combined spent; then they win the world series the following year because of it... And Yankees fans are mad cause they think the Pirates made $30 ******* million over a couple years? Are you ******* kidding me? I think I can speak for all Pirate fans when I say GFY to any Yankee fan that thinks the Pirates are what's wrong with MLB.

I understand all that, I never said the Pirates was what's wrong with baseball.

All your points are valid, but even you said "I'd rather whatever money they make be on the field instead of in their pockets"

That's all I was referring to, I think that's part of the problem. Perhaps I should have made myself more clear with my first post.

They are trying, but after 18 straight losing seasons, perhaps they should try with more of their profits, they are getting "free money."

If they were spending all of their resources and still getting no where, maybe MLB would look to change the system.

It's easy to blame the Yankees, but it's the players that don't want a salary cap.

The Yankees may take the most advantage of that, but so do other clubs with money, and if any one had more money, they'd take more advantage.

They did spend the most and win the WS last year, they also had more home grown players in it, than the Phillies did.

How can you punish the Yankees for making and spending the most, when the system allows that?

[Sharrow]

I understand all that, I never said the Pirates was what's wrong with baseball.

All your points are valid, but even you said "I'd rather whatever money they make be on the field instead of in their pockets"

That's all I was referring to, I think that's part of the problem. Perhaps I should have made myself more clear with my first post.

They are trying, but after 18 straight losing seasons, perhaps they should try with all their profits, they are getting "free money."

It's easy to blame the Yankees, but it's the players that don't want a salary cap.

The Yankees may take the most advantage of that, but so do other clubs with money, and if any one had more money, they'd take more advantage.

Fair enough, but like I said, one more good player isn't going to make a significant enough difference at this point. It would basically be wasted money in regards to actually competing. The real test will come if these young players show something and another player could be the difference.

Honestly though, the farm system is extremely bottom heavy and it's probably going to take a while before their starting pitching is any good. They've got a little bit of depth right now, but every one of their pitchers is probably a 4th or 5th starter on most other teams if they make the cut. There's been some talk that they're going to add a starter this offseason but who knows. It won't be an ace though, which is what they need.

[Lil Bit Special]

You're trolly in nature.

The Pirates have one of the best farms in baseball and have debuted talented like Pedro Alvarez and Jose Tabata this year. The Dodgers are getting a ton of props for getting Zach Lee to not go to LSU, but the Pirates pulled it off one year earlier with Zach von Rosenburg.

Just because they failed to buy a Sabathia, Burnett, and Tex in the same offseason to carry them to a WS ring doesn't mean they're not trying. Spending money doesn't mean throwing a ton of money at FAs.

That said, there should be a salary floor.

There will never be a salary floor without a salary cap of some kind.

The system now is a total joke. Poor teams shouldnt be getting rich off the rich teams. And the Yankees and the other money teams wont bitch much because they are always contenders. Its a shame.