Please fire or demote Shotty, Thank You.

[SenorGato]

I have half a decade of proof that Shotty sucks.

Well just as long as no one questions the proof, sure.

Also, it's 4 years. This would be his 5th...They're 5-2 and just fell out of that coveted top 10 in points scored this past week.

For all this talk of proof, no one has ever answered the questions I've asked many, many times here with our offense:

Which one of the Chad Pennington and Pennington/Clemens offenses were supposed to finish as tops in the league again? What was supposed to be done about a future HOF QB tanking the last 5 games of what was a very exciting for this team and this offense?

Also to go with that:

Why is '06 perceived so differently now? At the time Schottenheimer got tons of praise for how that offense worked out, as it was the unit that played the best on our unlikely playoff run. Now it's just another piece of "proof" that he sucks...

Real answers only...preferably with facts but I do realize the anti-Schotty crowd thinks facts and context are "excuses" so I might be asking alot there.

[RutgersJetFan]

No, that would be Kevin Gilbride - the guy who has directed the Giants' offense to a top-10 ranking in each of the last 3 years.

I think the moral of the story is that Rex needs to punch Schottenheimer on TV.

[jason423]

Why is '06 perceived so differently now? At the time Schottenheimer got tons of praise for how that offense worked out, as it was the unit that played the best on our unlikely playoff run. Now it's just another piece of "proof" that he sucks...

Real answers only...preferably with facts but I do realize the anti-Schotty crowd thinks facts and context are "excuses" so I might be asking alot there.

For the same reason the 2002 offense and 2004 offenses are perceived differently once the green glasses come off and people look closer at the numbers. All of those teams were just average offenses based on the ease of schedule. 2002 scored 0.13% above the average (though the Vinny games brought that number down), 2004 was just 1.22% above the average, and 2006 was 0.84% below the average. Each one of those teams was carried by the defense and easy opponents.

I think the goal is to strive for the best. Thus far his best season was 2008 and his worst was 2007. 2008 ranked about 10th in the NFL. 2007 was close to 30th. His other years are middle of the pack, right around 17 or 18. Thats not good and its not horrific. He didnt have the greatest talent to work with all these years so the question becomes once you get the talent do the numbers dramatically rise. Favre was a disappointment because of what he did in Minnesota and with Green Bay. The offense here was definitely feast or famine with explosions in some games and no shows in others with Favre. This looks to be the same in 2010 where the offense has looked great (2nd half Pats, 1st half Vikes, Bills) at times and dreadful at others (Ravens, Packers, and Broncos). Its very inconsistent.

I dont like Schottenheimer and I think the numbers say he isnt anything special at what he does. That said he is only a major concern if you have a star QB that is hampered by the system. A guy like Pennington, who maybe plays worse in it, isnt the kind of guy to really lead a team anyway and no system is going to turn the offense into a 27PPG machine. At this stage in Sanchez' career he is closer to Pennington than Peyton Manning, so its probably not going to hurt the overall results. The one concern I would have is if the accuracy troubles are related to the offense. The interceptions in this system have been way high for the other QBs and the completion percentage of Clemens was a disaster, just like it is now with Sanchez. You wonder if some of it is a bit too complex for a young guy to learn.

[HessStation]

LOL. You're DBAKE with 50 higher IQ points.

LOL

[bitonti]

the last time we saw Bill Callahan in charge of an NFL offense he was getting Pants'ed by Gruden in the Super Bowl.

Im all for talking about an upgrade at OC but the time to do it is in the offseason, not when the team is 5-2.

[T0mShane]

For the same reason the 2002 offense and 2004 offenses are perceived differently once the green glasses come off and people look closer at the numbers. All of those teams were just average offenses based on the ease of schedule. 2002 scored 0.13% above the average (though the Vinny games brought that number down), 2004 was just 1.22% above the average, and 2006 was 0.84% below the average. Each one of those teams was carried by the defense and easy opponents.

I think the goal is to strive for the best. Thus far his best season was 2008 and his worst was 2007. 2008 ranked about 10th in the NFL. 2007 was close to 30th. His other years are middle of the pack, right around 17 or 18. Thats not good and its not horrific. He didnt have the greatest talent to work with all these years so the question becomes once you get the talent do the numbers dramatically rise. Favre was a disappointment because of what he did in Minnesota and with Green Bay. The offense here was definitely feast or famine with explosions in some games and no shows in others with Favre. This looks to be the same in 2010 where the offense has looked great (2nd half Pats, 1st half Vikes, Bills) at times and dreadful at others (Ravens, Packers, and Broncos). Its very inconsistent.

I dont like Schottenheimer and I think the numbers say he isnt anything special at what he does. That said he is only a major concern if you have a star QB that is hampered by the system. A guy like Pennington, who maybe plays worse in it, isnt the kind of guy to really lead a team anyway and no system is going to turn the offense into a 27PPG machine. At this stage in Sanchez' career he is closer to Pennington than Peyton Manning, so its probably not going to hurt the overall results. The one concern I would have is if the accuracy troubles are related to the offense. The interceptions in this system have been way high for the other QBs and the completion percentage of Clemens was a disaster, just like it is now with Sanchez. You wonder if some of it is a bit too complex for a young guy to learn.

Sweet Jesus that's great work. Hell of a post!

[SouthernJet]

Sweet Jesus that's great work. Hell of a post!

Thank you !!

[SenorGato]

For the same reason the 2002 offense and 2004 offenses are perceived differently once the green glasses come off and people look closer at the numbers. All of those teams were just average offenses based on the ease of schedule. 2002 scored 0.13% above the average (though the Vinny games brought that number down), 2004 was just 1.22% above the average, and 2006 was 0.84% below the average. Each one of those teams was carried by the defense and easy opponents.

Sure. But that '06 offense wasn't supposed to be average it was supposed to be terrible. We were starting two rookies at LT and C, the hardest position on the OL. The QB was a guy who not only never played a full season, but at the time was the only guy in the league who came back from the injuries he had. The RB position was a platoon between Kevin Barlow and Leon Washington. The WRs after Cole was some 4th round practice squad guy named Jerricho Cotchery.

Half the fun of analyzing an offense is giving it some context. I don't remember '06's offense because it was a great offense, I remember it because they played so over their head much of the time. The offense did what it had to do to win games, even if it wasn't pretty much of the time.

I think the goal is to strive for the best. Thus far his best season was 2008 and his worst was 2007. 2008 ranked about 10th in the NFL. 2007 was close to 30th. His other years are middle of the pack, right around 17 or 18. Thats not good and its not horrific. He didnt have the greatest talent to work with all these years so the question becomes once you get the talent do the numbers dramatically rise. Favre was a disappointment because of what he did in Minnesota and with Green Bay. The offense here was definitely feast or famine with explosions in some games and no shows in others with Favre. This looks to be the same in 2010 where the offense has looked great (2nd half Pats, 1st half Vikes, Bills) at times and dreadful at others (Ravens, Packers, and Broncos). Its very inconsistent.

How much of that is QB play and how much of that is playcalling? How much of that is just how football works? Besides for Peyton Manning's Colts and the '07 Pats, I can't think of an offense in the past decade that scored at will. How many offenses in the league are truly consistent at putting up points? I mean hell, even a very good offense like the Saints got handled by a team like the Browns...

I dont like Schottenheimer and I think the numbers say he isnt anything special at what he does. That said he is only a major concern if you have a star QB that is hampered by the system. A guy like Pennington, who maybe plays worse in it, isnt the kind of guy to really lead a team anyway and no system is going to turn the offense into a 27PPG machine. At this stage in Sanchez' career he is closer to Pennington than Peyton Manning, so its probably not going to hurt the overall results. The one concern I would have is if the accuracy troubles are related to the offense. The interceptions in this system have been way high for the other QBs and the completion percentage of Clemens was a disaster, just like it is now with Sanchez. You wonder if some of it is a bit too complex for a young guy to learn.

The INTs in this system are high because Pennington isn't that good, Clemens was a first time starter during the infamous Adrian Clarke year, Favre tanked, and Sanchez was a rookie. You guys are looking for deeper reasons to things when the answers are right in front of you...When you statistically analyze Schottenheimer you can't just look at the numbers and go "ah, so this is what he did." Why? Because he's not the guy playing. As a numbers person, I feel you should know that.

Like you, I feel no special feeling for Schottenheimer. I seem to think more highly of him than most here, but my bias towards him comes from the extreme irrationality that comes with offensive analysis on this board. It seems where we really differ in how we analyze offensive performance. I think you guys ignore how players play far too often. I also think you're very quick to attribute good player to the players but all bad play to the coordinator. Maybe I'm wrong, but even this week I see "we should have run" instead of "holy sh*t catch the f*ckin ball"...It doesn't make sense to me...the Jets didn't lose because too many passing plays were called...they lost because guys didn't hold onto the ball when they should and most definitely could have.

[Bergen Jet]

I didn't know Gato had sooo many accounts

[Vicious89x]

Please fire or demote Gato. Thank You.

[JiFtheOracle]

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/index.php?/topic/92594-hell-has-frozen-over-jets-atop-fo-offensive-stats/

[RutgersJetFan]

Real answers only...preferably with facts but I do realize the anti-Schotty crowd thinks facts and context are "excuses" so I might be asking alot there

The INTs in this system are high because Pennington isn't that good, Clemens was a first time starter during the infamous Adrian Clarke year, Favre tanked, and Sanchez was a rookie. When you statistically analyze Schottenheimer you can't just look at the numbers and go "ah, so this is what he did."

You know it's not exactly fair to demand rationality out of your opposition in the name of context when you misappropriate it. What about the fact that Favre's year preceding '08 was his lowest INT total since 2001? What about the fact that after '08 he put up the lowest single season INT total of his career? What about the fact that Pennington's TD/INT numbers went from slightly over 1:1 to almost 3:1 as soon as he wasn't playing under Schottenheimer anymore? None of that matters?

[Bergen Jet]

You know it's not exactly fair to demand rationality out of your opposition in the name of context when you misappropriate it. What about the fact that Favre's year preceding '08 was his lowest INT total since 2001? What about the fact that after '08 he put up the lowest single season INT total of his career? What about the fact that Pennington's TD/INT numbers went from slightly over 1:1 to almost 3:1 as soon as he wasn't playing under Schottenheimer anymore? None of that matters?

What he said!

[SenorGato]

You know it's not exactly fair to demand rationality out of your opposition in the name of context when you misappropriate it. What about the fact that Favre's year preceding '08 was his lowest INT total since 2001? What about the fact that after '08 he put up the lowest single season INT total of his career? What about the fact that Pennington's TD/INT numbers went from slightly over 1:1 to almost 3:1 as soon as he wasn't playing under Schottenheimer anymore? None of that matters?

You realize we've done this before right? If not you, then someone else on the board. What's the point of me repeating myself if no one actually gives a damn?

1. Favre moving from the NFC North to the AFC East would bring changes in his statistical record. He's played in the NFC North his whole career...Not only that but the NFC just sucks compared to the AFC. The defenses are better in this conference...QBs are better in the conference...It's just a more competitive conference. The fact that the guy went and threw 9 in the last 5 games...

2. Pennington throwing less INTs in warm weather went to sh*t as soon as it got cold and he had to play a playoff game out of Miami. He was in this offense for a year and a half...The half part was behind the worst OL in the league and he got hurt as usual...the full season was his first one after two shoulder surgeries...No clue what you expected from him, but 17:16 was better than most thought we'd get...that's why he won Comeback player of the year for his mediocrity.

3. It's not that they don't matter...It's that you don't bother to offer any kind of context to them so anyone who wants to dig at all can dig a hole through what you're saying.

Edit: Since Favre being so dominant last year was some kind of conclusive evidence to you...What do you say about this year? Is he throwing more INTs because he's injured or because the playcalling has gotten worse? From your logic, it's the playcalling....the very same playcalling in the very same offense in the very same division for the very same team that worked so well last year.

[THE ILK]

the last time we saw Bill Callahan in charge of an NFL offense he was getting Pants'ed by Gruden in the Super Bowl.

Im all for talking about an upgrade at OC but the time to do it is in the offseason, not when the team is 5-2.

Don't forget the 2 games Revis is going to win us single handedly.

Should we just put them up now and say we are 7-2 or should we list them like this: 5-(2)-2?

[Vicious89x]

You realize we've done this before right? If not you, then someone else on the board. What's the point of me repeating myself if no one actually gives a damn?

1. Favre moving from the NFC North to the AFC East would bring changes in his statistical record. He's played in the NFC North his whole career...Not only that but the NFC just sucks compared to the AFC, especially the AFC East.

2. Pennington throwing less INTs in warm weather went to sh*t as soon as it got cold and he had to play a playoff game out of Miami. He was in this offense for a year and a half...The half part was behind the worst OL in the league and he got hurt as usual...the full season was his first one after two shoulder surgeries...No clue what you expected from him, but 17:16 was better than most thought we'd get...that's why he won Comeback player of the year for his mediocrity.

3. It's not that they don't matter...It's that you don't bother to offer any kind of context to them so anyone who wants to dig at all can dig a hole through what you're saying.

We also played the NFC/AFC west that year.

You know. When the Rams, Chiefs, Raiders, Broncos, Seahawks, 49ers, Bengals all sucked or were at best average. Actually I will even put in the effort to provide their records

Rams- 2-14

Chiefs- 2-14

Raiders- 5-11

Broncos- 8-8

Seahaws- 4-12

49ers- 7-9

Bengals- 4-11-1

Bills- 7-9

So that's basically 7 games against crap teams out of division and then we played the Bills twice, who sucked as well, so if you really think about it, half of our schedule was against sh*t competition.

I'm sure my argument is invalid.

[RutgersJetFan]

...What do you say about this year? Is he throwing more INTs because he's injured or because the playcalling has gotten worse? From your logic, it's the playcalling....the very same playcalling that worked so well last year.

Absolutely. It's been both. That's exactly my point and I think everyone else's here. Childress has been Wade Phillips-esque bad this year, as has Favre. To think that both coaching and play don't play equal parts in what they've been going through as well as us is just plain blind. Anyone who saw that New England game would be idiotic to argue otherwise. By your logic both Childress and Phillips shouldn't be in jeopardy at all because the only reason they're bad is because the players don't run their plays correctly.

[Vicious89x]

Absolutely. It's been both. That's exactly my point and I think everyone else's here. Childress has been Wade Phillips-esque bad this year, as has Favre. To think that both coaching and play don't play equal parts in what they've been going through as well as us is just plain blind. Anyone who saw that New England game would be idiotic to argue otherwise.

Sidney Rice?

You can say sure, he had Moss for 3 games but it's not like Moss knows that system in and out and he and Favre are on the same page like those two were.

[Aten]

Anyone who saw that New England game would be idiotic to argue otherwise.

Wrong New England game. Never mind.

[Aten]

To think that both coaching and play don't play equal parts in what they've been going through as well as us is just plain blind.

To think that play and coaching play equal parts in anything ignores basic economic reality.

[SenorGato]

We also played the NFC/AFC west that year.

You know. When the Rams, Chiefs, Raiders, Broncos, Seahawks, 49ers, Bengals all sucked or were at best average. Actually I will even put in the effort to provide their records

Rams- 2-14

Chiefs- 2-14

Raiders- 5-11

Broncos- 8-8

Seahaws- 4-12

49ers- 7-9

Bengals- 4-11-1

Bills- 7-9

So that's basically 7 games against crap teams out of division and then we played the Bills twice, who sucked as well, so if you really think about it, half of our schedule was against sh*t competition.

I'm sure my argument is invalid.

No your argument is perfectly valid...

Does that mean that Favre's 2009 doesn't count because he got to play Cleveland, Detroit, SF, St. Louis, Detroit, Seattle, Chicago, Carolina, and Chicago?

DOes that mean that his '07 doesn't count because he got to play Detroit, Detroit, Carolina, KC, Oakland, St. Louis, and Chicago twice?

Does that mean Pennington's '08 doesn't count because he got to play Buffalo twice, St. Louis, SF, KC, Seattle, Oakland, and Arizona?

[RutgersJetFan]

Wrong New England game. Never mind.

That's the mind boggling part. You go from that to botching not one but two 2-minute drills in one game. Hell three in two games if you want to throw in the gift from God against Denver.

[SenorGato]

Absolutely. It's been both. That's exactly my point and I think everyone else's here. Childress has been Wade Phillips-esque bad this year, as has Favre. To think that both coaching and play don't play equal parts in what they've been going through as well as us is just plain blind. Anyone who saw that New England game would be idiotic to argue otherwise. By your logic both Childress and Phillips shouldn't be in jeopardy at all because the only reason they're bad is because the players don't run their plays correctly.

To think that coaching and playing have equal on game day is just being ridiculous. There's no chance in hell that's true.

[Vicious89x]

No your argument is perfectly valid...

Does that mean that Favre's 2009 doesn't count because he got to play Cleveland, Detroit, SF, St. Louis, Detroit, Seattle, Chicago, Carolina, and Chicago?

DOes that mean that his '07 doesn't count because he got to play Detroit, Detroit, Carolina, KC, Oakland, St. Louis, and Chicago twice?

Does that mean Pennington's '08 doesn't count because he got to play Buffalo twice, St. Louis, SF, KC, Seattle, Oakland, and Arizona?

No... My point is that in 08/09 he faced similarly horrid competition. Yet, while with the Jets his picks were through the roof and his pick total fell off last year. I believe part of the reason his pick totals are going up this year is due to an improved NFC North/stiffer out of conference competition.

Essentially my entire point is that the Jets played crappy teams in 06 and 08. Both of those QB's moved onto a different teams that faced a similar level of competition and put up better #'s. That's all.

[RutgersJetFan]

To think that play and coaching play equal parts in anything ignores basic economic reality.

You're right. Mangini was that bad. 60/40.

[Sharrow]

No, that would be Kevin Gilbride - the guy who has directed the Giants' offense to a top-10 ranking in each of the last 3 years.

So you're saying he learned his lesson? Good for him.

[RutgersJetFan]

To think that coaching and playing have equal on game day is just being ridiculous. There's no chance in hell that's true.

16th to 1st. One season.

[SenorGato]

16th to 1st. One season.

And so that proves what about coaching on Sundays?

Believe it or not, most coaching happens on the days they aren't playing real games. Real games are when and why the players make the their money...It's why they get paid more than coaches....because they have a direct impact on what happens on the field.

[jason423]

You can factor out many of the variables in the interception category by simply adjusting those numbers for opponents played in the year.

The bookend healthy Chad seasons he was at 32% and 43% below the average while in the 2 Schotty years he was at 1.4 and 6.8% above the norms. Thats a huge jump. Favres were -6.5 and -56.4. Here he was 72%. Ryan and Flaccos rookie seasons were -11 and -13. Sanchez was around 60% above the norm last year.

The balls fly to the wrong team in the offense. Its alot of QBs and alot of comparables at this point to just say its too small of a sample or he is affected by having to teach players.

[RutgersJetFan]

And so that proves what about coaching on Sundays?

Believe it or not, most coaching happens on the days they aren't playing real games. Real games are when and why the players make the their money...It's why they get paid more than coaches....because they have a direct impact on what happens on the field.

It's official. Bitonti ruined the Internet.

[Jetsfan80]

Believe it or not, most coaching happens on the days they aren't playing real games.

Duh. So how does that exempt Schottenheimer from blame? The offense looked totally unprepared coming off a bye week. "Preparation" is a term that refers to efforts made BEFORE the game.

[RutgersJetFan]

The balls fly to the wrong team in the offense. Its alot of QBs and alot of comparables at this point to just say its too small of a sample or he is affected by having to teach players.

This.

[JiFtheOracle]

You can factor out many of the variables in the interception category by simply adjusting those numbers for opponents played in the year.

The bookend healthy Chad seasons he was at 32% and 43% below the average while in the 2 Schotty years he was at 1.4 and 6.8% above the norms. Thats a huge jump. Favres were -6.5 and -56.4. Here he was 72%. Ryan and Flaccos rookie seasons were -11 and -13. Sanchez was around 60% above the norm last year.

The balls fly to the wrong team in the offense. Its alot of QBs and alot of comparables at this point to just say its too small of a sample or he is affected by having to teach players.

Then how do you explain Sanchez significantly improving on last year INT totals?

[Vicious89x]

Then how do you explain Sanchez significantly improving on last year INT totals?

I think Sanchez isn't a good variable as he was a rookie with a ridiculously low amount of experience. Also as per Aten, worse QB ever.

[SenorGato]

Then how do you explain Sanchez significantly improving on last year INT totals?

TBH...luck.