#27TheDominator Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The point isn't about any one player but that it's a lot of turnover. I don't disagree that Coleman couldn't be replaced with another low-priced player (or Eric Smith, or Ihedigbo, etc.). The point is that so many guys in 1 year is generally not good, even if as individuals their replacements might be of equal talent. Lesser talents can use every advantage they can get, and knowing their system that much better has to help more than someone new to it. I think that gets compounded - or at least can get compounded - when there are so many at the same time. As I said, I don't disagree. OTOH, I think that the #2 CB spot is a pretty important one in this D and of a much higher value than the majority of other positions and that includes starting DE and S or upgrading #2 WR over Cotchery. It might also include ILB. They have dumped a great deal of money and picks in that spot since Rex arrived. If they are happy with Cromartie I can see them paying him pretty handsomely. Otherwise I think they need to spend on a different CB, but I'm not thinking that they will go into the season with Revis and Wilson 1-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 As I said, I don't disagree. OTOH, I think that the #2 CB spot is a pretty important one in this D and of a much higher value than the majority of other positions and that includes starting DE and S or upgrading #2 WR over Cotchery. It might also include ILB. They have dumped a great deal of money and picks in that spot since Rex arrived. If they are happy with Cromartie I can see them paying him pretty handsomely. Otherwise I think they need to spend on a different CB, but I'm not thinking that they will go into the season with Revis and Wilson 1-2. I don't think they will either. I just question if Cromartie is that much better than someone else we might use there, or is he only that much better if we accept that we will never put pressure on the QB within 5 seconds of the snap. He's a good corner but paying him like a great one is something a team does when they're not already paying another corner like 1.5 great ones. And yes of course a starting corner is more valuable than a slight upgrade to 3rd and 4th string DB's. Duh. But if retaining Cromartie over a stop-gap player to compete with Wilson means losing those low-level players AND doing with less at another starting position like WR, then move on without compounding Cromartie's cost beyond an almost-3rd-round draft pick the year after so many players came out early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I don't think they will either. I just question if Cromartie is that much better than someone else we might use there, or is he only that much better if we accept that we will never put pressure on the QB within 5 seconds of the snap. He's a good corner but paying him like a great one is something a team does when they're not already paying another corner like 1.5 great ones. And yes of course a starting corner is more valuable than a slight upgrade to 3rd and 4th string DB's. Duh. But if retaining Cromartie over a stop-gap player to compete with Wilson means losing those low-level players AND doing with less at another starting position like WR, then move on without compounding Cromartie's cost beyond an almost-3rd-round draft pick the year after so many players came out early. We agree, but your Duh was out of place. I didn't say he was more valuable than a 3-4 string DB. I said he was more valuable than: 1. A starting S (as in Pool's replacement) 2. A starting DE (as in Ellis' replacement) 3. Upgrading from Cotchery as a starting WR (as in the remainder of Holmes/Edwards) 4. A starting ILB (as in Harris) I'd probably prefer to go into the season with Edwards-Cotch at WR, Mauga for Harris, Pitoitua for Ellis and some stiff (maybe even Cook) at S than Wilson-Revis at starting CB. We'll see because I will defer to the coaches on Wilson's readiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 We agree, but your Duh was out of place. I didn't say he was more valuable than a 3-4 string DB. I said he was more valuable than: 1. A starting S (as in Pool's replacement) 2. A starting DE (as in Ellis' replacement) 3. Upgrading from Cotchery as a starting WR (as in the remainder of Holmes/Edwards) 4. A starting ILB (as in Harris) I'd probably prefer to go into the season with Edwards-Cotch at WR, Mauga for Harris, Pitoitua for Ellis and some stiff (maybe even Cook) at S than Wilson-Revis at starting CB. We'll see because I will defer to the coaches on Wilson's readiness. Duh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Duh. Fine. I'm buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 In the Colts game we had Revis + nobody to cover 3 WRs and Dallas Clark. The Steelers didn't kill us due to scheme. They killed us due to poor tackling. If guys are whiffing on tackles or getting run over that means they were in a position to make a tackle. Scheme would be a more believable reason if Mendenhall was darting untouched through 10+ yard running lanes all half. The only real thing I noticed in the 2nd half is we started tackling and Pittsburgh took their foot off the gas pedal some with a 3 TD lead. I do agree with you that Cromartie isn't worth upper-level dollars. He looked a lot better than he was due to having Revis handling the opponents' most dangerous weapons most of the year. When Revis wasn't Revis early-on I remember a whole bunch of 3rd down conversions coming against Cromartie. But again it's about dollars. Assuming the cap is still in the $120M range, keeping Cromartie would require him signing in the $5M range. He isn't worth more than that to us IMO. If he was our only (or 1 of 2) starter hitting FA I might feel differently but he isn't. There's also Harris and Holmes and Edwards and Ellis and Pool, not to mention both Smith boys and Coleman and Hunter and Turner. A year later there will be another handful of present-day starters hitting FA. Having Cromartie eat up $8M or more of cap room may upgrade that one position but I don't think the team will be better overall. Retaining him means not retaining someone else. If he is retained, every extra million he gets per year means 1 good veteran depth player being replaced by league-minimum garbage. The team needs better pressure from the front 3 and our OLBs. Could also use a better safety (or two). If we don't hit paydirt with them in the draft (made all the more difficult with our missing pick at #61), they'll will need to be addressed in FA and that'll be tough if a 1-dimensional player like Cromartie is eating up something in the $8M range every year. In the Colts game our Blitz was Countered exposing our secondary. Thats the point I was trying to make, Sperm..... Also if Strickland does not get hurt that game might have turned out a little differently he was playing extremely well in the middle of the field for us before he got hurt. Losing SG on the offensive side of the ball hurt as well. Yep Cro needs to go I think if we can somehow get better in the front 7 we can easily coach up the secondary especially if we grab one of the current Safties available. You could be right about the Steeler game but we came out in the same defense expecting Rapistberger to throw on us and they ran it instead. Mendenhal running vs A Dime+ defense will get you missed tackles IMO especally if your on your heals expecting pass. I think if we come out in the first half with the defensive philosophy we used in the second half were playing in the SB. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 You could be right about the Steeler game but we came out in the same defense expecting Rapistberger to throw on us and they ran it instead. Mendenhal running vs A Dime+ defense will get you missed tackles IMO especally if your on your heals expecting pass. I think if we come out in the first half with the defensive philosophy we used in the second half were playing in the SB. Who knows. The Jets were running a dime defense against the Steelers? Why didn't I see this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visajets Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The Jets were running a dime defense against the Steelers? Why didn't I see this? I watched Mendenhall shred our front 7 for almost the first half of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I watched Mendenhall shred our front 7 for almost the first half of football. IF there is a front 7 there isn't a dime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visajets Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 IF there is a front 7 there isn't a dime. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think Wilson has taken more heat than he deserves, for a couple of things that were out of his control. First, there's no way any rookie corner starts over Cromartie. Plain and simple. The thing is, Drew Coleman actually had a very good year. So when things are clicking like that, you play the hot hand (who has more experience). Second, he suffers for comparison to McCourty. However, McCourty was going to start anyway and he went through a trial by fire. McCourty also had the advantage of playing on a team that almost always was playing from way ahead, allowing him to rack up a lot of picks because of the amount of guys they were dropping into coverage. I wouldn't say Wilson is as good as McCourty, but it's hard to say one way or another. Finally, when Wilson actually did see play, I thought he looked rather good actually. He stuck tight as hell in man coverage, he was truly impressive in that regard. He obviously has the speed and awareness to play like glue on many receivers. I think the only thing he lacked was QB awareness, he would stay on his man but when the ball came his way it was like he was surprised. So ultimately, Wilson is starting material in my opinion. The only problem is how much are you willing to risk with him? Can you throw him in to the number 2 spot? I don't think it would be the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think Wilson has taken more heat than he deserves, for a couple of things that were out of his control. First, there's no way any rookie corner starts over Cromartie. Plain and simple. The thing is, Drew Coleman actually had a very good year. So when things are clicking like that, you play the hot hand (who has more experience). Second, he suffers for comparison to McCourty. However, McCourty was going to start anyway and he went through a trial by fire. McCourty also had the advantage of playing on a team that almost always was playing from way ahead, allowing him to rack up a lot of picks because of the amount of guys they were dropping into coverage. I wouldn't say Wilson is as good as McCourty, but it's hard to say one way or another. Finally, when Wilson actually did see play, I thought he looked rather good actually. He stuck tight as hell in man coverage, he was truly impressive in that regard. He obviously has the speed and awareness to play like glue on many receivers. I think the only thing he lacked was QB awareness, he would stay on his man but when the ball came his way it was like he was surprised. So ultimately, Wilson is starting material in my opinion. The only problem is how much are you willing to risk with him? Can you throw him in to the number 2 spot? I don't think it would be the end of the world. I like Wilson. Pre-draft he was my choice and I'm happy enough. I think he will be good eventually. OTOH, if he couldn't start over Cromartie and he didn't see the field because Drew Coleman had a good year, you have to ask yourself if you are comfortable with Drew Coleman at #2 and Wilson at the nickel. I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I like Wilson. Pre-draft he was my choice and I'm happy enough. I think he will be good eventually. OTOH, if he couldn't start over Cromartie and he didn't see the field because Drew Coleman had a good year, you have to ask yourself if you are comfortable with Drew Coleman at #2 and Wilson at the nickel. I am not. I'm not comfortable losing any of the core four, but I'm going to have to get used to being uncomfortable. It's not too often you get to say this as a Jets fan, but this team has been operating like a Madden franchise and as much as I love Trader Mike, I think we're about to taste a heaping dose of reality. Right now the best case scenario I'm looking at involves keeping Harris, Cro and either of the two receivers, keeping Jenkins and Ellis at a reduced price, and dropping all the junk. Again, that's the BEST case scenario I'm looking at here and that includes adding ZERO free agents. Think about the past three years. Think of every nice acquisition we have made: Scott, Leonhard, Pace, Jenkins, Favre, Faneca, L.T., Edwards, Holmes, etc. Who have we lost during this process? Favre, Rhodes and Faneca - because we wanted to lose them. Other than that, we have been on the plus end of every single move. I just don't know how much longer Trader Mike can keep this up. This salary situation is going to be daunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'm not comfortable losing any of the core four, but I'm going to have to get used to being uncomfortable. It's not too often you get to say this as a Jets fan, but this team has been operating like a Madden franchise and as much as I love Trader Mike, I think we're about to taste a heaping dose of reality. Right now the best case scenario I'm looking at involves keeping Harris, Cro and either of the two receivers, keeping Jenkins and Ellis at a reduced price, and dropping all the junk. Again, that's the BEST case scenario I'm looking at here and that includes adding ZERO free agents. Think about the past three years. Think of every nice acquisition we have made: Scott, Leonhard, Pace, Jenkins, Favre, Faneca, L.T., Edwards, Holmes, etc. Who have we lost during this process? Favre, Rhodes and Faneca - because we wanted to lose them. Other than that, we have been on the plus end of every single move. I just don't know how much longer Trader Mike can keep this up. This salary situation is going to be daunting. Get ready to lose Gholston, Woody and Bryan Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visajets Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I like Wilson. Pre-draft he was my choice and I'm happy enough. I think he will be good eventually. OTOH, if he couldn't start over Cromartie and he didn't see the field because Drew Coleman had a good year, you have to ask yourself if you are comfortable with Drew Coleman at #2 and Wilson at the nickel. I am not. Me neither. Wilson was terrible at CB. He looked dazed and confused and was beat repeatedly by any and all WRs that lined up against him. Cro wasnt perfecet but a helluva alot better than Wilson. Wilson did play the dime well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I like Wilson. Pre-draft he was my choice and I'm happy enough. I think he will be good eventually. OTOH, if he couldn't start over Cromartie and he didn't see the field because Drew Coleman had a good year, you have to ask yourself if you are comfortable with Drew Coleman at #2 and Wilson at the nickel. I am not. Jets fans have called me nuts for suggesting it but they really could draft another cornerback... in the 1st or 3rd round... especially if Dwight Lowery's move to FS becomes permanent. Rex loves cornerbacks they could take 1 every year from now until Rex is fired, it would not surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Me neither. Wilson was terrible at CB. He looked dazed and confused and was beat repeatedly by any and all WRs that lined up against him. Cro wasnt perfecet but a helluva alot better than Wilson. Wilson did play the dime well. The Jets will be looking less at how each Cromartie and Wilson played in 2010, and more at how they project in the future. That is the greates value and challenge that coach and GM have. If they wind up signing Cromartie to a long term deal, that does bode well for the future projections of one kyle wilson. It is that simple. I don't believe it will play out that way. Wilson came on more at the end of the year, and appears bright in understanding defense. His athletecism will help him break through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAjetFan Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 The Jets will be looking less at how each Cromartie and Wilson played in 2010, and more at how they project in the future. That is the greates value and challenge that coach and GM have. If they wind up signing Cromartie to a long term deal, that does bode well for the future projections of one kyle wilson. It is that simple. I don't believe it will play out that way. Wilson came on more at the end of the year, and appears bright in understanding defense. His athletecism will help him break through. Wilson will be fine. Guy played in the WAC! It was going to take him more time than most to learn how to really BALL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeJetsWord Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Wilson will be fine. Guy played in the WAC! It was going to take him more time than most to learn how to really BALL! Plus, we are talking about Rex Ryans defense. It usually takes at least one full season for someone to get comfortable in this scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetfan4hire Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'd rather keep Braylon and Holmes. Sanchez has a nice thing going with them and I don't want to see that go away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visajets Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I'd rather keep Braylon and Holmes. Sanchez has a nice thing going with them and I don't want to see that go away I agree and we will need to put up 40 every game to either win or keep it close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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