Kyle Orton Named Starter

[JustInFudge]

The funny thing is I really am not a huge Tebow hater and you know it. I've rooted for him right alongside you, you jackass.

h8r

Its the typical Gator homer reaction that if you merely suggest that you don't think Tebow will be a good NFL starting QB they bite your head off and act like you just took a dump in the middle of their living room that annoys the piss out of me. And G-d forbid you back up your argument with actual analysis of his crappy play. Then they point at stats racked up against lousy competition to "prove" how good he was. Stats that they themselves would piss all over if a player they disliked put up.

No, its really not. You know as well as anyone, I had my doubts about Tebow at the next level. I always said, I wouldnt be shocked if he made it because he's that type of a competitor...but knew he wasnt the typical NFL QB.

San Diego and Oakland have 2 of the better D's in the league...and the Broncos offense scored just fine with Tebow at the helm. How was his play crappy? 850 total yard, 7 TD's...is far from crappy.

The reality is Tebow showed up in camp and from all accounts looked lost and unprepared on day 1. Since then he has done nothing to convince the coaching staff or front office that he is worthy of risking the season on. In fact, he is no longer getting any snaps with the first team and is in serious danger of starting the season third on the depth chart behind Brady Quinn.

The Broncos are currently in a terrible position because of Josh McDaniel's moronic decision to trade up and draft this guy in the first round. They have a stupid fanbase who understandably want to give the kid a chance. But they also have a group of players who don't have any faith in this kid's ability to win games for them and an incumbent starter who is outperforming him without thinking about it and another backup who is also outperforming the golden boy.

How do you know this...because some jackass beat writer told you so? Come'on. The team was all set to trade Orton and now he's the starter. And do you really think Tebow came in unprepared? I doubt it. The only reason you believed what you just typed is because of your homerific nature toward anything Domer related...and we all know of your homerific ways, Cpt Klacko....while I'm quite the opposite.

And why is it a full blown assumption the team doesnt believe in him? Orton was 3-10....3-10. Because Brandon Lloyd's career was salvaged by Orton...doesnt mean sh*t. Of course he wants him to start. $$$$$$ But you cant honestly believe he thinks Orton gives them the best shot to win after going 3-10.

The history of football is littered with guys like Tebow - who were college superstars that never panned out in the NFL. It doesn't make him a bad person. It just means he doesn't possess the skillset to make it at the highest level. Just deal with it, jeez.

I could give a **** if Tebow succeeds...if he was a Jet, that would be a different story.

The purpose of this thread was simple and you've made it out to be some type of agenda and couldnt handle it when the truth was thrown back in your face.

Orton sucks, he'll never win sh*t. He was 3-10 last season. Tebow may very well suck, but at this point, thats not fact....especially basd on how he completely exceeded everyone's expectations.

[slats]

Dont have a better come back.

Then I take it, even you being the biggest Tebow hater I know, is impressed that he put up 850 total yards and 7 Td's in his first 3 starts.

If you're going to get hung up on stats, then Orton's stats are much better so he wins.

Tebow has a different style of play that a coach needs to completely work into his offensive system. Timmy brings those elusive intangibles (talk about Penningtonness... haha!), but I don't think he brings the skillset to warrant recreating an offense around. Not at all.

He has two potential paths to success, and neither is particularly easy.

1.) He finds a coach who believes in him and builds an offense designed to take advantage of whatever it is that Timmy does.

2.) He learns how to play QB in a traditional way.

McDaniels drafted this kid to demonstrate what a brilliant outside the box thinking genius he is, but now he's gone, and no one left has the patience or inclination to make him work. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to work out some sort of Gatorcat package to showcase him this season, then try to get whatever they can for him in a trade next year.

[The Crusher]

The funny thing is I really am not a huge Tebow hater and you know it. I've rooted for him right alongside you, you jackass.

Its the typical Gator homer reaction that if you merely suggest that you don't think Tebow will be a good NFL starting QB they bite your head off and act like you just took a dump in the middle of their living room that annoys the piss out of me. And G-d forbid you back up your argument with actual analysis of his crappy play. Then they point at stats racked up against lousy competition to "prove" how good he was. Stats that they themselves would piss all over if a player they disliked put up.

The reality is Tebow showed up in camp and from all accounts looked lost and unprepared on day 1. Since then he has done nothing to convince the coaching staff or front office that he is worthy of risking the season on. In fact, he is no longer getting any snaps with the first team and is in serious danger of starting the season third on the depth chart behind Brady Quinn.

The Broncos are currently in a terrible position because of Josh McDaniel's moronic decision to trade up and draft this guy in the first round. They have a stupid fanbase who understandably want to give the kid a chance. But they also have a group of players who don't have any faith in this kid's ability to win games for them and an incumbent starter who is outperforming him without thinking about it and another backup who is also outperforming the golden boy.

The history of football is littered with guys like Tebow - who were college superstars that never panned out in the NFL. It doesn't make him a bad person. It just means he doesn't possess the skillset to make it at the highest level. Just deal with it, jeez.

Sounds familiar. CPF

[Bleedin Green]

What? he was a 1st rounder

That means absolutely nothing. Is Vernon Gholston an NFL caliber DE or OLB? Where a player was drafted has exactly zero to do with their actual NFL ability.

[Bleedin Green]

Tebow threw for 300 yards in his second start...dont care what defense he faced, Mark faced them too...Mark has throw for over 300 twice, and it took him 20 games, and an overtime to do it the first time.

Yeah, but Tim Tebow didn't do it with Schitty as his OC now did he? Even Favre couldn't throw for 300 under that dipsh*t.

[Klecko73isGod]

h8r

No, its really not. You know as well as anyone, I had my doubts about Tebow at the next level. I always said, I wouldnt be shocked if he made because he's that type of a competitor...but knew he wasnt the typical NFL QB.

San Diego and Oakland have 2 of the better D's in the league...and the Broncos offense scored just fine with Tebow at the helm. How was his play crappy? 850 total yard, 7 TD's...is far from crappy.

How do you know this...because some jackass beat writer told you so? Come'on. The team was all set to trade Orton and now he's the starter. And do you really think Tebow came in unprepared? I doubt it. The only reason you believed what you just typed is because of your homerific nature toward anything Domer related...and we all know of your homerific ways, Cpt Klacko....while I'm quite the opposite.

And why is a full blown assumption the team doesnt believe in him? Orton was 3-10....3-10. Because Brandon Lloyd's career was salvaged by Orton...doesnt mean sh*t. Of course he wasnt him to start. $$$$$$ But you cant honestly believe he thinks Orton givse them the best shot to win after going 3-10.

I could give a **** if Tebow succeeds...if he was a Jet, that would be a different story.

The purpose of this thread was simple and you've made it out to be some type of agenda and couldnt handle it when truth was thrown back in your face.

Orton sucks, he'll never win sh*t. He was 3-10 last season. Tebow may very well suck, but at this point, thats not fact....especially basd on how he completely exceeded everyone's expectations.

That should tell you all you need to know right there.

What truth has been thrown in my face? Tebow was anointed the starter heading into camp and the Broncos were gonna trade Orton and move on and then Tebow lost the job on the very first day of camp and was so bad they decided they couldn't afford to trade Orton. That's the truth. Deal with it.

[slats]

Hoge says Tebow “will never be consistent enough . . . to win”

Posted by Mike Florio on August 4, 2011, 8:56 AM EDT

Getty Images

The Tim Tebow debate continues to rage, and it’s quickly becoming the most polarizing issue in the NFL.

ESPN’s Merril Hoge took to Mike & Mike in the Morning on Thursday to make a compelling and detailed case against Tebow’s ability to succeed at this level.

Hoge told Mike Greenberg and Adam Schefter that Tebow “had no business” being drafted as a quarterback, and that he should have been a sixth-round or seventh-round draft pick at best. Hoge focused on the issue of Tebow’s looping delivery, which continues to emerge in moments of stress and duress.

“Just that alone drove Byron Leftwich to a backup position,” Hoge said. “Tim has that issue. It’s never going to change.”

Hoge also pointed to accuracy problems, which he said become even worse when Tebow is on the move, and which becomes even more pronounced when coupled with the looping delivery. “Those two are major, major issues, I have never seen overcome,” Hoge said.

Hoge also wisely pointed out that the Broncos, by making Tim Tebow a first-round pick in 2010, now have a “political nightmare.”

Then there’s the issue of Tebow’s physical style of play. Hoge fears that, in the NFL, Tebow won’t survive 16 games, given his belief that, for example, when the Broncos are near the end zone “nobody runs the ball but me,” as microphones captured Tebow telling coaches last year against the Chargers.

At one point, Hoge pointed out an interesting comparison between Tebow and great college player turned NFL bust Brian Bosworth. Hoge said that the hype surrounding guys like that will prompt opponents to play even harder against them.

Hoge acknowledged that Tebow could be a situational player, or a quarterback who could be hidden by a great defense and running game, but that Tebow could never be the guy who leads a team to a title.

Regardless of how it all plays out, Tebow’s NFL fortunes will continue to be one of the hottest topics in the NFL, probably until Tebow retires.

[JustInFudge]

If you're going to get hung up on stats, then Orton's stats are much better so he wins.

Tebow has a different style of play that a coach needs to completely work into his offensive system. Timmy brings those elusive intangibles (talk about Penningtonness... haha!), but I don't think he brings the skillset to warrant recreating an offense around. Not at all.

He has two potential paths to success, and neither is particularly easy.

1.) He finds a coach who believes in him and builds an offense designed to take advantage of whatever it is that Timmy does.

2.) He learns how to play QB in a traditional way.

McDaniels drafted this kid to demonstrate what a brilliant outside the box thinking genius he is, but now he's gone, and no one left has the patience or inclination to make him work. I wouldn't be surprised if they try to work out some sort of Gatorcat package to showcase him this season, then try to get whatever they can for him in a trade next year.

I agree with all of this and the only reason I busted out stats was because Cpt Klacko was saying he played crappy...which is far from the truth. And if stats were part of my case, I'd agrue that him doing what he did in his first 3 games as a starter is much more impressive than what Orton did being a 6 year veteran. For example, just to use a sample; Orton had like 1000 total yards, and 5 TDs in the first 3 games of the season...not much different that of Tebow's production. Or if you want to use a more relative example, look at what Orton did vs. the same competition...I'd argue it was less impressive.

Either way, that wasnt my original position. My point is, Orton sucks. Bottom line. He went 3-10 last season. Tebow gave the team a spark and created excitement around a sh*tty team...Orton doesnt do that for you.

I'm not saying Tebow will be great, I'm not saying Tebow will win. I'm saying Orton is the mush, everyone knows that, so why not give the kid a chance? IMO, he proved he's at least worthy of that shot with his performance last season.

[JustInFudge]

Hoge says Tebow “will never be consistent enough . . . to win”

Posted by Mike Florio on August 4, 2011, 8:56 AM EDT

Getty Images

The Tim Tebow debate continues to rage, and it’s quickly becoming the most polarizing issue in the NFL.

ESPN’s Merril Hoge took to Mike & Mike in the Morning on Thursday to make a compelling and detailed case against Tebow’s ability to succeed at this level.

Hoge told Mike Greenberg and Adam Schefter that Tebow “had no business” being drafted as a quarterback, and that he should have been a sixth-round or seventh-round draft pick at best. Hoge focused on the issue of Tebow’s looping delivery, which continues to emerge in moments of stress and duress.

“Just that alone drove Byron Leftwich to a backup position,” Hoge said. “Tim has that issue. It’s never going to change.”

Hoge also pointed to accuracy problems, which he said become even worse when Tebow is on the move, and which becomes even more pronounced when coupled with the looping delivery. “Those two are major, major issues, I have never seen overcome,” Hoge said.

Hoge also wisely pointed out that the Broncos, by making Tim Tebow a first-round pick in 2010, now have a “political nightmare.”

Then there’s the issue of Tebow’s physical style of play. Hoge fears that, in the NFL, Tebow won’t survive 16 games, given his belief that, for example, when the Broncos are near the end zone “nobody runs the ball but me,” as microphones captured Tebow telling coaches last year against the Chargers.

At one point, Hoge pointed out an interesting comparison between Tebow and great college player turned NFL bust Brian Bosworth. Hoge said that the hype surrounding guys like that will prompt opponents to play even harder against them.

Hoge acknowledged that Tebow could be a situational player, or a quarterback who could be hidden by a great defense and running game, but that Tebow could never be the guy who leads a team to a title.

Regardless of how it all plays out, Tebow’s NFL fortunes will continue to be one of the hottest topics in the NFL, probably until Tebow retires.

I read this, this is actually part of the reason why I started this thread.

First off, Hoge is a moron...and he's not saying anything different than anyone else has ever said about Tebow.

Again and I'll leave it alone. Orton, sucks. He's the mush. Thats my point.

[villain_the_foe]

That means absolutely nothing. Is Vernon Gholston an NFL caliber DE or OLB? Where a player was drafted has exactly zero to do with their actual NFL ability.

My bad, you couldnt sense the sarcasm in my statement. I thought the "laughing on the floor guy" would help you.

[Klecko73isGod]

I agree with all of this and the only reason I busted out stats was because Cpt Klacko was saying he played crappy...which is far from the truth. And if stats were part of my case, I'd agrue that him doing what he did in his first 3 games as a starter is much more impressive than what Orton did being a 6 year veteran. For example, just to use a sample; Orton had like 1000 total yards, and 5 TDs in the first 3 games of the season...not much different that of Tebow's production. Or if you want to use a more relative example, look at what Orton did vs. the same competition...I'd argue it was less impressive.

Either way, that wasnt my original position. My point is, Orton sucks. Bottom line. He went 3-10 last season. Tebow gave the team a spark and created excitement around a sh*tty team...Orton doesnt do that for you.

I'm not saying Tebow will be great, I'm not saying Tebow will win. I'm saying Orton is the mush, everyone knows that, so why not give the kid a chance? IMO, he proved he's at least worthy of that shot with his performance last season.

You sound like a Penningtonologist. You are the founder of Tebology!

[Klecko73isGod]

I read this, this is actually part of the reason why I started this thread.

First off, Hoge is a moron...and he's not saying anything different than anyone else has ever said about Tebow.

Again and I'll leave it alone. Orton, sucks. He's the mush. Thats my point.

You're missing the point. The Broncos players would mutiny if Tebow started over Orton. There are 52 other guys whose livlihoods depend the Broncos decision.

[JustInFudge]

You're missing the point. The Broncos players would mutiny if Tebow started over Orton. There are 52 other guys whose livlihoods depend the Broncos decision.

Says who? Have you personally asked each individual player?

3-10

[slats]

My point is, Orton sucks. Bottom line. He went 3-10 last season. Tebow gave the team a spark and created excitement around a sh*tty team...Orton doesnt do that for you.

You keep throwing that around, but the fact is that Denver had the worst defense in the league last year giving up over 29 ppg. There are only two or three QB's in the entire league who might've been able to go .500 with that defense - and Tim Tebow isn't one of them.

[Plus One]

Tebow would get crucified out there.

[JustInFudge]

You keep throwing that around, but the fact is that Denver had the worst defense in the league last year giving up over 29 ppg. There are only two or three QB's in the entire league who might've been able to go .500 with that defense - and Tim Tebow isn't one of them.

I get that part and have mentinoed that in the thread.

At the end of the day, Kyle Orton isnt going to win you sh*t. Thats my point.

You can knock Tebow for this, that and the other...but you dont know that he cant win you more games than sh*tty Kyle Orton.

[Klecko73isGod]

I get that part and have mentinoed that in the thread.

At the end of the day, Kyle Orton isnt going to win you sh*t. Thats my point.

You can knock Tebow for this, that and the other...but you dont know that he cant win you more games than sh*tty Kyle Orton.

TTF

[Klecko73isGod]

Tebow would get crucified out there.

You know what would be great? A Tim Tebow on a crucifix smiley.

[Boozer76]

I read this, this is actually part of the reason why I started this thread.

First off, Hoge is a moron...and he's not saying anything different than anyone else has ever said about Tebow.

Again and I'll leave it alone. Orton, sucks. He's the mush. Thats my point.

20 TD's and 9 INT's in 13 games is not "the mush", especially with subpar receivers and a crappy running game. There's alot of NFL teams that would die to have those numbers from their QB.

[Klecko73isGod]

Says who? Have you personally asked each individual player?

3-10

Who's to say Brady Quinn wouldn't win even more than Tebow? Who's to say Kellen Clemens wouldn't lead the Broncos to the Super Bowl?

[JustInFudge]

20 TD's and 9 INT's in 13 games is not "the mush", especially with subpar receivers and a crappy running game. There's alot of NFL teams that would die to have those numbers from their QB.

Tebow had 7 TD's in his first 3 games as a starter...you do the math.

Maybe, that offense isnt as bad as everyone thinks. The point total production didnt drop off at all with Tebow. In fact, he raised the offense from the dead when Orton failed to produce a TD in the 2 straight games.

Still doesnt change the premise here, Orton isnt going to win you a thing. Everyone KNOWS this. You dont KNOW, what Tebow can do for your team. You can only speculate.

[JustInFudge]

Who's to say Brady Quinn wouldn't win even more than Tebow? Who's to say Kellen Clemens wouldn't lead the Broncos to the Super Bowl?

Both those players have been given opportunities.

[Klecko73isGod]

Tebow had 7 TD's in his first 3 games as a starter...you do the math.

Maybe, that offense isnt as bad as everyone thinks. The point total production didnt drop off at all with Tebow. In fact, he raised the offense from the dead when Orton failed to produce a TD in the 2 straight games.

Still doesnt change the premise here, Orton isnt going to win you a thing. Everyone KNOWS this. You dont KNOW, what Tebow can do for your team. You can only speculate.

This is so much fun.

[Klecko73isGod]

Both those players have been given opportunities.

Actually neither of them has really been given a fair shot but that's besides the point.

[slats]

Whatever your inflated opinion of Tebow may be, the fact is that he's a project QB. Broncos have a brand new coaching staff coming off a lockout. They have not had the time you'd need to get this project up to speed to start the season.

If Denver sucks again this year, I'm sure you'll see Timmy back in the starting lineup to finish the season again.

[JustInFudge]

This is so much fun.

You cant handle that I'm making a legitimate case. Thats what is fun.

[Integrity28]

I don't know how Orton ever even wins any games. His ducks are just as bad as Captain Noodle Arms were.

Not to turn this into a debate, but Captain Noodle Arm won a game here and there too ya know?

[Bleedin Green]

Not to turn this into a debate, but Captain Noodle Arm won a game here and there too ya know?

Just not any of the ones against teams with even a remotely respectable defense.

[slats]

Just not any of the ones against teams with even a remotely respectable defense.

Haha! Enter Tim Tebow's lone victory against the Texans.

[Vicious89x]

Tim Tebow + JiF = epic thread

[Bleedin Green]

Still doesnt change the premise here, Orton isnt going to win you a thing. Everyone KNOWS this. You dont KNOW, what Tebow can do for your team. You can only speculate.

I get your point, but I think you're a bit overblown with this "Orton will never win you a thing" stance. In all likelihood he's not going to win anything in Denver, I'll give you that, because the team around him isn't that good and he's not an elite level talent. But the guy is still a respectable QB and if surrounded by a good team, could provide a solid level of QB play that could really help them out. Let's be honest, there are definitely plenty of worse QBs than Orton out there who have won thanks to the team around them. There's no doubt he would have been a significant boost to a team like Miami, which is exactly why I was glad that trade never happened. He's not fantastic, but he's not nearly as bad as you're trying to make him out to be. Tebow's upside is certainly higher, but with that being the case, if he's still plummeting down the depth chart in favor of Orton, that says a lot about how he's looked so far this year.

[JustInFudge]

I get your point, but I think you're a bit overblown with this "Orton will never win you a thing" stance. In all likelihood he's not going to win anything in Denver, I'll give you that, because the team around him isn't that good and he's not an elite level talent. But the guy is still a respectable QB and if surrounded by a good team, could provide a solid level of QB play that could really help them out. Let's be honest, there are definitely plenty of worse QBs than Orton out there who have won thanks to the team around them. There's no doubt he would have been a significant boost to a team like Miami, which is exactly why I was glad that trade never happened. He's not fantastic, but he's not nearly as bad as you're trying to make him out to be. Tebow's upside is certainly higher, but with that being the case, if he's still plummeting down the depth chart in favor of Orton, that says a lot about how he's looked so far this year.

Meh, Orton isnt going to ever win you anything significant...be a decent starter...sure. Very CPF type discussion here.

Serious question though, thrusting him back into the starting role after being on the trading block - are they just trying to gain more interest for a potential trade?

[Klecko73isGod]

You cant handle that I'm making a legitimate case. Thats what is fun.

You're not making any case. You just keep posting 3-10, 3-10, 3-10 as if it means something.

Tebow's three starts:

Tebow put up 23 points against Oakland's 20th ranked scoring D, .2 points below the average allowed by Oakland's D. Loss

Tebow put up 23 points against Houston's 29th ranked scoring D, which was 3.7 points less than the average allowed by Houston's defense. Win

Tebow put up 28 points against San Diego's 10th ranked scoring D after the Chargers had already been eliminated from playoff contention. Loss

What, exactly, was so impressive about any of those performances?

[Stonehands]

Jesus wants Tebow to play.

[Bleedin Green]

Meh, Orton isnt going to ever win you anything significant...be a decent starter...sure. Very CPF type discussion here.

Serious question though, thrusting him back into the starting role after being on the trading block - are they just trying to gain more interest for a potential trade?

I wouldn't disagree with the CPF comparison, although I'm not sure he's proven himself to be as horridly anti-clutch as Chadwick, so it's the only reason I think he might have a shot with the right team.

As far as the near trade, that is undoubtedly a very strange situation. It's like he's the Tony Sparano of quarterbacks or something. Part of me wonders if more than anything, they want to make sure everyone involved with the team feels like Tebow has earned the job once he eventually gets it, and forcing him to have to step up and beat out the prior year's starter is how to do that. Or maybe he really has been that awful so far in camp and this is his wake up call... who the hell knows.