predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I know it will end up going to Tom Brady, but objectively speaking, Palmer has had just as good a season (if not slightly better) and his offense leads the league in scoring. https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/19/pro-carson-palmer-mvp-an/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant wait Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 what about newton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kleckomania Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Considering the edges that Brady gets with no holding calls on his O LINE, having half his salary paid under the table to help the Patriots salary cap and the Gillette Stadium clock slowing up and speeding up whenever the Patriots want, there is no question that Palmer is better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 what about newton? He's also had a phenomenal season, although they are pretty stacked on defense (best of the 3). Tough to separate the 3 of them, but I have definitely enjoyed watching Palmer the most...their offense is built around the downfield strike - he has the least margin for error, and he is still remarkably efficient. He is playing the position better than any QB in the league right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 From that article i linked in the first post: The New England and Arizona offenses are poles apart on the spectrum of modern NFL passing attacks. The Patriots’ spread teams out horizontally and move the chains through a series of accurate and precise short passes. They kill teams with a thousand paper-cuts before opening up with an occasional deep shot, which Brady has been unusually efficient with this season. The Cardinals, by contrast use the deep pass as a staple of their offense. While Brady’s average depth of target is just 7.7 yards down field—the league average is 8.7—Palmer’s average pass travels 11.5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. That leads the NFL, and over the course of 40 or 50 pass attempts, represents a massive chunk of additional yardage that the Cardinals are expecting Palmer to pick up with his arm versus what other teams expect receivers to generate with the ball in-hand. The differences between these two methodologies and strategies go a long way towards explaining why Brady has prettier numbers than Palmer this season. Whether you believe putting the ball further down field is inherently harder than shorter passing, it definitively leads to less efficient numbers in several areas for quarterbacks. Completion percentage goes down, interceptions go up. There is a risk-reward nature to putting the ball in the air, and the further you air it out, the more that becomes true. Bruce Arians and the Cardinals like the high-risk, high-reward style of play. Belichick and Tom Brady like the low-risk, high-efficiency approach. Clearly both are successful, and the point isn’t to say one system is better than the other; but it is important to understand how each affects the raw numbers of the two quarterbacks. League-wide, the interception rate on passes thrown under 10 yards from the line of scrimmage is 1.26 percent; on passes over that mark, it is 4.32 percent. That is the risk element. The reward comes on the touchdown rate on those passes. Under 10 yards, the TD rate is 2.85 percent, but over 10 yards, it jumps to 6.95 percent. The two teams are attacking the same problem from different angles. Given the relative hit to efficiency the further down the field you’re pushing the ball, what Palmer is doing within this offense is every bit as impressive as Brady, statistically. Palmer is completing 64 percent of his passes—a middle of the table figure, but from a guy with the league’s highest aDOT (average depth of target). That’s 7.7 percent better than Cam Newton, the only other passer to rival Palmer’s aDOT, and that figure isn’t explained by the receiving corps each is working with. Even adjusting for drops, Palmer is still well clear. The “expected” completion percentage of a player with that aDOT this season, according to the above numbers, is around 60.6 percent, so Palmer is outperforming that markedly. Palmer is putting up good numbers in any offense, but given the system he runs, they are special. What really elevates him into the MVP conversation this season, though, are the big plays he has made, and some of the spectacular passes. Last season the highest percentage of higher-graded throws we recorded from any quarterback was 5.9%, but Palmer this season is throwing one on 9.5% of his dropbacks, an almost unbelievable rate of high-quality throws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Kind of bizarre that Palmer isn't even in the discussion, especially after last night's performance. NFL.com at this moment has a Brady vs. Cam article, without even mentioning Palmer. In net points, these are the top 3 teams: 1. Patriots (+ 134) 2. Cardinals (+ 120) 3. Panthers (+ 108) QB play has been the driving force behind all 3 teams. Panthers are a run-first team, but of course we should credit Cam for doing what he's done all season without his # 1 receiver. Not saying Brady or Cam don't deserve to be the top 2 guys, but Carson certainly should be in the discussion. He's not, currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hael Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Carson is definitely better than Cam and is a worthy number 2, but Brady is putting up a HOF season.. His statistics are ridiculous, but if you go beyond them you see that even in the games where he hasn't thrown for 400+ yards, that he's played about as well as a qb can possibly play given the situation he is in. The Dallas and NY games were ridiculous. He was being harrassed, sacked, with no running game at all, yet he still managed to basically play flawless qbing to eke out a win Yes he throws a lot of short plays, but he's nailed the medium and long ones all year as well. And he's done it with a completely decimated oline and injuries all over the field for his weapons. Right now he's a unanimous mvp, although I think that without Edelman there is realistically no way his numbers keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 through the years 2 of the QBs I have been very critical of are having great years this year- palmer and Cutler. Palmer is certainly in the conversation along w/ Brady and newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 He's also had a phenomenal season, although they are pretty stacked on defense (best of the 3). Tough to separate the 3 of them, but I have definitely enjoyed watching Palmer the most...their offense is built around the downfield strike - he has the least margin for error, and he is still remarkably efficient. He is playing the position better than any QB in the league right now. Agree. Love the Arians offense....Brady will win, but their offense puts you to sleep. I dont know how well Brady would be if he were asked to throw down the field like that. Palmers one of the more physically gifted QB's in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 what about newton? All relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Where are all of Palmer's Super Bowl rings? Yea, he is much than Brady. Please shut your troll mouth. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I'd go with Palmer after watching him the last two weeks on primetime. The guy is playing at an unbelievably high level. Watching him come back after Seattle destroyed him and continued to hit him in the 3Q and 4Q last week, and seeing what he did last night after a terrible first half- he's got the nod if it were up to me. Also, anyone who puts Brady above Newton is biased. Brady has played all of his games this year with the single best receiving threat in the league (Gronk), the top slot WR (edelman), and played the first 6 or 7 with Dion Lewis. Yes, he's a very significant reason that Edelman and Lewis are who they are, but lets not get carried away. They're still great players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I'd go with Palmer after watching him the last two weeks on primetime. The guy is playing at an unbelievably high level. Watching him come back after Seattle destroyed him and continued to hit him in the 3Q and 4Q last week, and seeing what he did last night after a terrible first half- he's got the nod if it were up to me. Also, anyone who puts Brady above Newton is biased. Brady has played all of his games this year with the single best receiving threat in the league (Gronk), the top slot WR (edelman), and played the first 6 or 7 with Dion Lewis. Yes, he's a very significant reason that Edelman and Lewis are who they are, but lets not get carried away. They're still great players. It doesn't matter who Brady plays with, he always elevates those around him and puts NE in contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 He has won 21 of his last 25 games. That's a hell of a record when you consider the weapons he has, mostly young receivers outside of a old, past his prime (but still good) Larry FItzgerald. Brady, at the very least, has the best TE in the league. Palmer is putting up similar numbers with guys like John brown, michael floyd, fells, JJ nelson, David Johnson. All good players, but not exactly pro bowl calibre at this stage of their careers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 It doesn't matter who Brady plays with, he always elevates those around him and puts NE in contention. Please, hyperbole a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 You know what, I say best TE in the league, but he is probably the greatest TE ever. Gronkowski is one of a kind, he is calvin Johnson at tight end. Definitely a big advantage for brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think Newton can win it over Brady. Newton is the entire offense out there. HE has an aging running back and really no WR's. Olsen is good but he is a product of Newton. If Brady didn't play the first 4 games would anyone be shocked if the Pats went 2-2? even 3-1? They have a mastermind coach there. Newton misses anytime and they lose easily. Newton for MVP Brady for best player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think Newton can win it over Brady. Newton is the entire offense out there. HE has an aging running back and really no WR's. Olsen is good but he is a product of Newton. If Brady didn't play the first 4 games would anyone be shocked if the Pats went 2-2? even 3-1? They have a mastermind coach there. Newton misses anytime and they lose easily. Newton for MVP Brady for best player. zona would hurt just as much if they lost Palmer. We've seen that in the last 2 years, they looked much worse with Drew stanton, Lindley and those other scrubs filling in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 zona would hurt just as much if they lost Palmer. We've seen that in the last 2 years, they looked much worse with Drew stanton, Lindley and those other scrubs filling in Zona was using a 2nd and 3rd string QB last year and still won 11 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
predator_05 Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Zona was using a 2nd and 3rd string QB last year and still won 11 games. 6-0 with Palmer, 5-5 without. Didnt derek anderson win some games while Newton was out last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Please, hyperbole a little more. sorry you don't like the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think Newton can win it over Brady. Newton is the entire offense out there. HE has an aging running back and really no WR's. Olsen is good but he is a product of Newton. If Brady didn't play the first 4 games would anyone be shocked if the Pats went 2-2? even 3-1? They have a mastermind coach there. Newton misses anytime and they lose easily. Newton for MVP Brady for best player. that mastermind coach has a pretty poor record without Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 6-0 with Palmer, 5-5 without. Didnt derek anderson win some games while Newton was out last year? They win 5 games without Palmer. My opinion is that Carolina would be worse off in 10 games without Newton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 sorry you don't like the truth. Spouting sh*t on an anonymous internet message board doesn't make it true, no matter how much Brady dick you suck. It doesn't matter who Brady plays with ^This is what you said. That's not hyperbole? It doesn't matter? So you're saying if Gronk was lost for the season, and Brady now was going into games without Gronk, Edelman, and Lewis, it wouldn't matter? He'd still be doing what he's doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 that mastermind coach has a pretty poor record without Brady. What does that have to do with anything? No one is saying your loverboy isn't an all time great. The discussion is this year's MVP - and every single person agrees that Brady's in the top 2-3 of that conversation as well. Some of us just are privy to not having brady-tinted goggles on at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetPotato Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Palmer hasn't lied publicly about his poor behavior then played the role of whiny victim. He has no shot at the MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 that mastermind coach has a pretty poor record without Brady. 11-5 with Matt Cassel is poor???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Spouting sh*t on an anonymous internet message board doesn't make it true, no matter how much Brady dick you suck. ^This is what you said. That's not hyperbole? It doesn't matter? So you're saying if Gronk was lost for the season, and Brady now was going into games without Gronk, Edelman, and Lewis, it wouldn't matter? He'd still be doing what he's doing? the man once made a title game w/ no run game and his main weapons were Reche Caldwell and jabar Gaffney. No matter how badly you want to bury your head in the sand it won't change the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 11-5 with Matt Cassel is poor???? 16-0 to 10-5 is a pretty big jump, right? how did they do in the playoffs w/ cassell? they didn't make it unlike 2 years later in KC where Cassell would lead KC to a div title. BB's record is well under .500 w/o Brady and he has just 1 postseason app in 7 seasons. He'd be a DC somewhere today if not for Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 What does that have to do with anything? No one is saying your loverboy isn't an all time great. The discussion is this year's MVP - and every single person agrees that Brady's in the top 2-3 of that conversation as well. Some of us just are privy to not having brady-tinted goggles on at all times. I responded to your nonsensical quote, we get it. you hate Brady and so do I but some of us can admit greatness when we see it and to give credit to others and not Brady isn't being fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 They win 5 games without Palmer. My opinion is that Carolina would be worse off in 10 games without Newton. Last season is irrelevant. Palmer has elevated his game to an entirely other level this season. Every team with a franchise QB would be in dire straits without their guy. But I think the Panthers would be in slightly better shape than Arizona because they are a run-based team and have a great defense (not to mention an easier division). But it's really splitting hairs at this point. Brady, Cam, and Palmer are all outstanding candidates. Its just a little bizarre that there's really been no mention of Palmer in the press. Which is kind of a big deal considering they're the ones that vote on the MVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Last season is irrelevant. Palmer has elevated his game to an entirely other level this season. Every team with a franchise QB would be in dire straits without their guy. But I think the Panthers would be in slightly better shape than Arizona because they are a run-based team and have a great defense (not to mention an easier division). But it's really splitting hairs at this point. Brady, Cam, and Palmer are all outstanding candidates. Its just a little bizarre that there's really been no mention of Palmer in the press. Which is kind of a big deal considering they're the ones that vote on the MVP. Long way to go, if he keeps this up he will be right there as a worthy choice. He's been outstanding this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I responded to your nonsensical quote, we get it. you hate Brady and so do I but some of us can admit greatness when we see it and to give credit to others and not Brady isn't being fair. In the post which you quoted, I LITERALLY called Brady an all-time great, and LITERALLY said he's having an MVP caliber season. You LITERALLY said "It doesn't matter who Brady plays with." Who is biased? LITERALLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyjunc Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 In the post which you quoted, I LITERALLY called Brady an all-time great, and LITERALLY said he's having an MVP caliber season. You LITERALLY said "It doesn't matter who Brady plays with." Who is biased? LITERALLY. You also LITERALLY wrote this: Also, anyone who puts Brady above Newton is biased. Brady has played all of his games this year with the single best receiving threat in the league (Gronk), the top slot WR (edelman), and played the first 6 or 7 with Dion Lewis. You were LITERALLY trying to take credit away from Brady and LITERALLY give it to the talent around him. I responded to that nonsense, sorry you don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 the man once made a title game w/ no run game and his main weapons were Reche Caldwell and jabar Gaffney. No matter how badly you want to bury your head in the sand it won't change the truth. That's great. Is he winning an MVP this year based on those results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.