Blackout Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 does that put them on the short list of best teams ever? or make them #1 pending how easy they dispose of opponents in the playoffs? I mean the talent is obviously there (best small forward, one of the best shooting guards and power forwards....great shooters off the bench etc) but they can't win more than 68 games this year and obviously the Jordan Bulls won 72 games after he unretired and people look at the 85-86 Celtics and 86-87 Lakers as two of the other greatest teams ever etc. what say you, JN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 It won't be the greatest team ever, but it would definately be in the top 5 discussion, especially since it's coming off a championship the year before. No team can claim to be the best ever until they beat the 72 win mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 does that put them on the short list of best teams ever? or make them #1 pending how easy they dispose of opponents in the playoffs? I mean the talent is obviously there (best small forward, one of the best shooting guards and power forwards....great shooters off the bench etc) but they can't win more than 68 games this year and obviously the Jordan Bulls won 72 games after he unretired and people look at the 85-86 Celtics and 86-87 Lakers as two of the other greatest teams ever etc. what say you, JN? It would make Lebron 4 titles short of pippen, but he would still be one of the best 2nd men ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolphann4life Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 It would make Lebron 4 titles short of pippen, but he would still be one of the best 2nd men ever. Dude we all know your a Bulls homer an a LeBron hater, but you don't really think Pippen is in the class as LeBron do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Dude we all know your a Bulls homer an a LeBron hater, but you don't really think Pippen is in the class as LeBron do you? Don't worry about ECURB, he lives on a different plain of existence than the rest of us. LeBron is a HOF in waiting and will go down as one of the best ever, but before he can get into the "greatest" discussion he needs to win more titles. I'll give you an interesting twist, though--LeBron has a chance to be considered the greatest ever without surpassing Jordan's championship total if he wins multiple championship with 2 different teams and being their best player. No other NBA player has ever done that. Let's say LeBron wins 2 titles with the Heat and 2 titles with the Cavs (after he re-signs there). At the end of his career he'll have the stats to go along with that and there's be a compelling argument he's the best ever, even with only 4 titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Dude we all know your a Bulls homer an a LeBron hater, but you don't really think Pippen is in the class as LeBron do you? Just pointing out that Lebron still has many players to pass on his path to greatness... Pippen had a better career in terms of success. Lebron so far needed Wade just like pippen needed Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 No. I didn't even read your question. I just know that whatever question you did ask, the only appropriate reply would be "no." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Just pointing out that Lebron still has many players to pass on his path to greatness... Pippen had a better career in terms of success. Lebron so far needed Wade just like pippen needed Jordan. LOL. Wade is playing Pippen to LeBron's Jordan. For you to think the reverse is absurd, but most of the stuff you say about basketball is absurd anyway. Wade is no way the same player today as he was in 2006. LeBron is far and away the best player on the Heat and has been the day he signed there. Pippen could never say that with Jordan on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 LeBron is the best player in the history of the sport. Fixed. His resume might not be there yet, but nobody has ever played the game of basketball at a higher level than LeBron is at right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Fixed. His resume might not be there yet, but nobody has ever played the game of basketball at a higher level than LeBron is at right now. I have to strongly disagree with your edit and post. LeBron's 2012-13's PER isn't even the best of his career (2008-09). In fact, this season would rank 10th all-time on the list. Wilt and Jordan have had better seasons as well (Wilt has 3 better seasons than this year's LeBron and Jordan has 4), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I have to strongly disagree with your edit and post. LeBron's 2012-13's PER isn't even the best of his career (2008-09). In fact, this season would rank 10th all-time on the list. Wilt and Jordan have had better seasons as well (Wilt has 3 better seasons than this year's LeBron and Jordan has 4), Sorry, Hollinger, but PER ain't everything. Regardless, LeBron is currently over 31 and nobody has ever finished a season with a PER of 32+, so you're talking about minute differences in an imperfect rating as your only basis of argument. LeBron's scoring with ridiculous efficiency this season (.594 eFG% and .632 TS%) and he's averaging over 8 rebounds and 7 assists a game. Adjusted for era, his season dwarfs Oscar Robertson averaging a triple-double. You can throw out Chamberlain's high-PER seasons as being meaningful in this discussion, because teams averaged 20 more PPG, there were 2,000+ more available rebounds, it didn't factor in individual turnovers, and he cared more about his stats than winning. LeBron doesn't have Jordan's rings or his win-at-all-costs attitude (so it seems), but he's a better basketball player. Better rebounder, better passer, better 3-pt shooter, more versatile, ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sorry, Hollinger, but PER ain't everything. Regardless, LeBron is currently over 31 and nobody has ever finished a season with a PER of 32+, so you're talking about minute differences in an imperfect rating as your only basis of argument. LeBron's scoring with ridiculous efficiency this season (.594 eFG% and .632 TS%) and he's averaging over 8 rebounds and 7 assists a game. Adjusted for era, his season dwarfs Oscar Robertson averaging a triple-double. You can throw out Chamberlain's high-PER seasons as being meaningful in this discussion, because teams averaged 20 more PPG, there were 2,000+ more available rebounds, it didn't factor in individual turnovers, and he cared more about his stats than winning. LeBron doesn't have Jordan's rings or his win-at-all-costs attitude (so it seems), but he's a better basketball player. Better rebounder, better passer, better 3-pt shooter, more versatile, ... First, PER is a good basis of comparison and, again, this isn't even LeBron's best season so that works against him in your "greatest season ever" argument. Second, the year Wilt won the championship (1966-67), he averaged 24/24/8 and his eFG% was .683 and his TS% .637, which is all better than LeBron this season. Third, you can't argue eras against Wilt or Jordan when LeBron is playing in a soft-defense era. His high eFG% and TS% can directly correlate to the change in the defensive rules that benefit him. Wilt and Jordan had to play with handchecking, grabbing, low bridging, no lay up rules, flagrant foul = criminal assault, etc. Fourth, I can't argue that LeBron is more physically gifted than Jordan. He may be the most physically gifted basketball player since Wilt. A better basketball player than Jordan? That's hard to compare when they play different positions and have a completely different style. BUT, I always felt that Magic was a better "basketball" player than Jordan so with LeBron being Magic on steroids, I would not strongly protest that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 71-win Bulls and the '86 Celtics are tough to top. This Heat team could perhaps fill that 3rd spot but it'll depend on how dominant they are in the postseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 lol @ ecurb trying to troll d-wade is the best player on the heat? lmao even he won't agree with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 26, 2013 Author Share Posted March 26, 2013 Lebron: 26.7 ppg, 8.2 rebounds and 7.4 assists Wade: 21.5 ppg, 5 rebounds and 5 assists yes D-wade is REALLY doing all the heavy lifting here isn't he? lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 First, PER is a good basis of comparison and, again, this isn't even LeBron's best season so that works against him in your "greatest season ever" argument. Yes, the massive 0.5 difference between his '08-'09 value and current season's in a metric statistic that some guy made up is clearly the smoking gun that makes my argument invalid. Second, the year Wilt won the championship (1966-67), he averaged 24/24/8 and his eFG% was .683 and his TS% .637, which is all better than LeBron this season. 117.4 ppg vs. 98 ppg. 67.3 rebounds per game vs. 42.3 rebounds per game. Chamberlain shot under 50% from the stripe and relied on his height/strength advantage to score around the basket. Not to mention that Chamberlain was an idiot who played soft defense at the end of games to avoid putting his absurd "never fouled out of a game" streak in jeopardy... Third, you can't argue eras against Wilt or Jordan when LeBron is playing in a soft-defense era. His high eFG% and TS% can directly correlate to the change in the defensive rules that benefit him. Wilt and Jordan had to play with handchecking, grabbing, low bridging, no lay up rules, flagrant foul = criminal assault, etc. I'm not arguing eras with Jordan, just Chamberlain. The numbers don't lie - an almost 20 point difference in scoring per game and over 25 more available rebounds per contest will skew stats considerably. Hand-checking wasn't making Michael Jordan shoot under 30% from downtown in nine of his fifteen seasons in the league. As for fouls, Jordan got as many touch fouls called in his favor as anyone in the history of the league and legal hand-checking is what made him the defensive player that he was. I don't think it makes much of a difference in the overall discussion tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yes, the massive 0.5 difference between his '08-'09 value and current season's in a metric statistic that some guy made up is clearly the smoking gun that makes my argument invalid. 117.4 ppg vs. 98 ppg. 67.3 rebounds per game vs. 42.3 rebounds per game. Chamberlain shot under 50% from the stripe and relied on his height/strength advantage to score around the basket. Not to mention that Chamberlain was an idiot who played soft defense at the end of games to avoid putting his absurd "never fouled out of a game" streak in jeopardy... I'm not arguing eras with Jordan, just Chamberlain. The numbers don't lie - an almost 20 point difference in scoring per game and over 25 more available rebounds per contest will skew stats considerably. Hand-checking wasn't making Michael Jordan shoot under 30% from downtown in nine of his fifteen seasons in the league. As for fouls, Jordan got as many touch fouls called in his favor as anyone in the history of the league and legal hand-checking is what made him the defensive player that he was. I don't think it makes much of a difference in the overall discussion tbh. First, props for being able to split up a quote with this boards funky new quoting format. Second, 0.5 can be a huge difference when we're differentiating greatness. It's like Olympic sprinting. 0.5 can be all the difference in the world. Third, yes, there was more opportunities because they scored more, but there was no 3 pt shot then so that absence balances it out. Players had to be more creative in scoring then in order to put up so many points. And those extra rebounding opportunities compared to today inflates Wilt's rebounding by 37%. So rather than averaging 24 rpg back then, he'd be averaging 16 rpg which is still unheard (Howard leads NBA with 12.5 rpg). And, yes, Wilt had his defensive issues, but he still was an absolute beast then, more so than LeBron is now. The man still averaged 50/26 for a season. That's incredible. Lastly, LeBron has become a better 3pt shooter in an era where the 3pt shot is the norm. Jordan played in an era where the 3pt shot was not common and, thus, he did not shoot as many or as well. For his era, however, he was a good 3pt shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 First, props for being able to split up a quote with this boards funky new quoting format. Second, 0.5 can be a huge difference when we're differentiating greatness. It's like Olympic sprinting. 0.5 can be all the difference in the world. Third, yes, there was more opportunities because they scored more, but there was no 3 pt shot then so that absence balances it out. Players had to be more creative in scoring then in order to put up so many points. And those extra rebounding opportunities compared to today inflates Wilt's rebounding by 37%. So rather than averaging 24 rpg back then, he'd be averaging 16 rpg which is still unheard (Howard leads NBA with 12.5 rpg). And, yes, Wilt had his defensive issues, but he still was an absolute beast then, more so than LeBron is now. The man still averaged 50/26 for a season. That's incredible. Lastly, LeBron has become a better 3pt shooter in an era where the 3pt shot is the norm. Jordan played in an era where the 3pt shot was not common and, thus, he did not shoot as many or as well. For his era, however, he was a good 3pt shooter. Players had to be more creative scoring to the tune of 20+ ppg more in the absence of a shot that results in 50% more points per make? You're losing me with that logic. How about increased pace and a gameplan that dictated shooting from as close to the basket as possible? How about an overall lack of defense and athleticism compared to today's game in Chamberlain's era? As for 16 rpg being "unheard" of, Rodman did it 5 times in his career. More recently, Ben Wallace and Kevin Love have eclipsed the 15 rpg mark. Wilt's numbers aren't as impressive when you consider that he was one of 4-5 guys in the league over 6'8" when he entered the league. The paint was also narrower and there were less long rebounds due to lack of outside shooting, allowing the big men to grab a higher percentage of the available boards. Chamberlain may have still been a HOF'er had he played in today's era, but there's no way he'd be in discussion as the GOAT. I'd love for Doc Brown to take a prime Shaq in the Delorian (a tight squeeze no doubt) and bring him back to 1961 and see how he would have dominated. Jordan was most certainly not a "good" 3-pt shooter for his era, considering that he bested the league average for 3pt% in four seasons during his career. He had one great season, shooting 42.7%, but that was the outlier, considering that he also shot under 20% from downtown five times in his career. I'm not saying LeBron is Craig Hodges, but he's become at least a league-average shooter from beyond the arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I also think something also has to be said for the "most dominant player of all-time" only winning 2 NBA titles, despite playing with multiple HoF'ers for almost his entire career (Arizin, Gola, Greer, Walker, Cunningham, West, Baylor, Goodrich). Not to mention that there were 10 or less teams in the league for the majority of his career... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Lebron is gonna break Kareem's scoring record and then Durant might challenge it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The Bulls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JADEDGREEN Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolphann4life Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I believe the Heat are 3-6 against the Knicks, Pacers and Bulls this season (1-2 against each) and 53-9 against everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 well we can crush this Q lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I believe the Heat are 3-6 against the Knicks, Pacers and Bulls this season (1-2 against each) and 53-9 against everyone else. tbh i bet the heat thunderphuck everyone in the eastern conference in the playoffs they're just lucky Rondo is out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 tbh i bet the heat thunderphuck everyone in the eastern conference in the playoffs they're just lucky Rondo is out Rondo? Please. The Celtics had Rondo last year and the Celtics, with a 3-2 lead at home pissed their pants and blew a chance at the Finals. The Celtics were toast with Rondo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 Rondo? Please. The Celtics had Rondo last year and the Celtics, with a 3-2 lead at home pissed their pants and blew a chance at the Finals. The Celtics were toast with Rondo. that's because of that sour puss traitor Ray Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I give lebron credit for being unselfish and a complete player but get back to me when he wins defensive player of the year jordan simply willed the bulls to win, and did whatever was necessary, shoot, rebound, pass, defend, decoy etc etc lebron would tell you he's no jordan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 The Bulls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 I give lebron credit for being unselfish and a complete player but get back to me when he wins defensive player of the year jordan simply willed the bulls to win, and did whatever was necessary, shoot, rebound, pass, defend, decoy etc etc lebron would tell you he's no jordan defensive POY is a joke award, they almost never give it to guards or small forwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 defensive POY is a joke award, they almost never give it to guards or small forwards Unless they earn it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Want to get into a who has more rings argument with the heat and bulls? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Want to get into a who has more rings argument with the heat and bulls? Really? At least D4 was a Heats fan before they won a championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 defensive POY is a joke award, they almost never give it to guards or small forwards which illustrates the point no ? the point is jordan was the best ever, and I hated the ******* guy. he had no weaknesses. his will to win was absurd. lebron is up there, but lets be real he's still carrying kobe's jock right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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