unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 slats, on 01 Apr 2013 - 16:05, said: If you replace Matt Slauson with Steve Hutchinson in his prime, the overall impact on the offense is minimal. It's certainly not worth the 9th pick in the draft. The rookie wage scale makes making the "safe choice" less important as well. You need to swing for the fences there and take the best impact player available. A modest upgrade over Holmes or Pace makes a much more significant difference on the field than a massive upgrade at guard. That just isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If you replace Matt Slauson with Steve Hutchinson in his prime, the overall impact on the offense is minimal. It's certainly not worth the 9th pick in the draft. The rookie wage scale makes making the "safe choice" less important as well. You need to swing for the fences there and take the best impact player available. A modest upgrade over Holmes or Pace makes a much more significant difference on the field than a massive upgrade at guard. a massive upgrade at guard is better than a bust at OLB, WR etc. I know we don't go into these things looking for impact guards in the top 10 but what you are saying is pick for need. and If it doesn't work it's a cheap mistake. The Jets can't afford any type of mistake with the state of the team the way it is. This pick has to be great. And if they trade Revis 2 picks have to be great. I see the Warmack pick as a hedge against Risk, from a GM who has done nothing risky since he took the job. You and Tom might think the risk at 9 is acceptable for whoever but Idzik hasn't done a risky thing all spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 That just isn't true. It's 100% true. a massive upgrade at guard is better than a bust at OLB, WR etc. I know we don't go into these things looking for impact guards in the top 10 but what you are saying is pick for need. and If it doesn't work it's a cheap mistake. The Jets can't afford any type of mistake with the state of the team the way it is. This pick has to be great. And if they trade Revis 2 picks have to be great. I see the Warmack pick as a hedge against Risk, from a GM who has done nothing risky since he took the job. You and Tom might think the risk at 9 is acceptable for whoever but Idzik hasn't done a risky thing all spring. There has never been, nor will there ever be, a great pick in the top ten at the guard position. And they really don't need the player they take there to have an impact as a rookie. Argue against it all you like, but this is not shaping up to be a playoff year for the Jets. You can take the most potential there, and hope it develops by 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 The risk isn't as much the money as the opportunity cost of the no 9 pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 It's 100% true.Slausen was a mediocre to bad run blocker. A great run blocker there would make a HUGE difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 The risk isn't as much the money as the opportunity cost of the no 9 pick. You're squandering the opportunity by taking a position of littel consequence. As soon as you take a guard there, you failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You can take the most potential there, and hope it develops by 2014. Great players are often great right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 slats, on 01 Apr 2013 - 16:21, said: You're squandering the opportunity by taking a position of littel consequence. As soon as you take a guard there, you failed. If there was a great RB, WR or QB to take there you take him but you have to let the talent that is going to be available in the draft dictate what you do. If Deon Jordan falls you have to take him there but he won't and the other pass rushers that will be there are all guys who have a high risk of being a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If there was a great RB, WR or QB to take there you take him but you have to let the talent that is going to be available in the draft dictate what you do. If Deon Jordan falls you have to take him there but he won't and the other pass rushers that will be there are all guys who have a high risk of being a bust. You take the chance on greatness there, knowing you can find a starting guard in the fourth round or later if you want one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You already have a sh*tload of cash tied up in Brick and Mangold before you add another first round pick there. and what will a rookie contract for say, Warmack cost? 4 for $12M with a 5th yr. option. How is this ground breaking while you could be possibly forming the most dominant interior line in the NFL for the next 4-5 years. 6 years from now Mangold and Brick will be 35. This argument is absolutely absurd, it's exactly what got Bradway fired as the GM, when he thought he could just plug players in Adrien Clarke and get by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I see the Warmack pick as a hedge against Risk, from a GM who has done nothing risky since he took the job. You and Tom might think the risk at 9 is acceptable for whoever but Idzik hasn't done a risky thing all spring. I still think Idzik will be loath to invest that kind of money in a guard, particularly given that we have two first-rounders on the line already, but this is the best argument I've yet heard for Warmack being the pick. Especially when paired with the Carpenter/Moffitt thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You take the chance on greatness there, knowing you can find a starting guard in the fourth round or later if you want one.There is no player who's going to be there with "greatness" upside. Except Warmack, Cooper and MAYBE Austin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 There is no player who's going to be there with "greatness" upside. Except Warmack, Cooper and MAYBE Austin. No one needs greatness at guard. The difference between great and decent at the guard position has a minimal impact on the field. As much as I love Mangold, the same holds true for the center position, and it's what makes his contract a problem, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 and what will a rookie contract for say, Warmack cost? 4 for $12M with a 5th yr. option. How is this ground breaking while you could be possibly forming the most dominant interior line in the NFL for the next 4-5 years. 6 years from now Mangold and Brick will be 35. This argument is absolutely absurd, it's exactly what got Bradway fired as the GM, when he thought he could just plug players in Adrien Clarke and get by. Who was the "most dominant interior line" in the NFL over the past five years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Let's take a look at the major dynasties in the past 30 years. 80's Redskins- Russ Grimm, Mark May 90's Cowboys- Nate Newton, Stepnoski C 00's Pats- Koppen, Compton, Woody, Andruzzi, Mankins 09 Saints- Nicks, Goodwin, Evans 12 49ers- Iupati, Goodwin, Boone etc etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 slats, on 01 Apr 2013 - 16:43, said: No one needs greatness at guard. The difference between great and decent at the guard position has a minimal impact on the field. As much as I love Mangold, the same holds true for the center position, and it's what makes his contract a problem, too. That isn't true either. Great interior linemen can make a running game and since we know the jets' passing game is going to suck next year, why not make the running game a big positive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Who was the "most dominant interior line" in the NFL over the past five years? hard to say, Pats, Saints, 49ers, Ravens, Texans would all be highly ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 That isn't true either. Great interior linemen can make a running game and since we know the jets' passing game is going to suck next year, why not make the running game a big positive? It is true. Go look up some advanced stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 slats, on 01 Apr 2013 - 16:48, said: It is true. Go look up some advanced stats. You also haven't made any affirmative argument for taking any other player which is pretty much the crux of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Remember when Goodwin backed up Mawae? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Who plays guard in front of Aaron Rodgers and Adrian Peterson? Josh Sitton plays G in front of Aaron Rodgers and just missed making All Pro. Peterson runs behind who John Sullivan had 5 more votes than Mangold at Center while both of their Tackles received votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Remember when Goodwin backed up Mawae? But we still had to trade Abraham and burn a first rounder on a center! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Josh Sitton plays G in front of Aaron Rodgers and just missed making All Pro. Peterson runs behind who John Sullivan had 5 more votes than Mangold at Center while both of their Tackles received votes. Where were those guys drafted? Where was Carl Nicks drafted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Here's the thing: the O-line doesn't need fixing. Everything else does. With Vlad and Colon currently penciled in as starters, there are definite problems that need to be addressed as much as any position we have a shot at filling via the draft. Unless, of course, they have been strategically placed there in order to get our QB decapitated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 But we still had to trade Abraham and burn a first rounder on a center!You can keep Abraham and his playoff gagging. The Jets haven't missed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 No one needs greatness at guard. The difference between great and decent at the guard position has a minimal impact on the field. As much as I love Mangold, the same holds true for the center position, and it's what makes his contract a problem, too. You only notice what those guys bring when they are gone. Remember the game old "whathisname" started in place of Mangold and couple of years ago? What a disaster. Another reason to like Cooper, since he can be plugged in at center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You can keep Abraham and his playoff gagging. The Jets haven't missed him. Exactly. What use did the Jets have for an elite pass rusher. Pace and Thomas have really been getting after the QB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Where were those guys drafted? Where was Carl Nicks drafted? What's your point? And Brady was picked in the 6th and Stevie Johnson was taken in the 7th. Mankins, Iupati, Grubbs, Faneca were all taken in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 #27TheDominator, on 01 Apr 2013 - 17:08, said: Exactly. What use did the Jets have for an elite pass rusher. Pace and Thomas have really been getting after the QB! Those are two different issues. The fact that Pace and Thomas were mediocre doesn't change that Abraham is a soft gutless player who sat out playoff games with the sniffles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You can keep Abraham and his playoff gagging. The Jets haven't missed him. I don't this is something we need to worry about for quite a while. Poise under pressure.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Exactly. What use did the Jets have for an elite pass rusher. Pace and Thomas have really been getting after the QB! Revisionist. Abraham was a pariah after voluntarily sitting out the playoffs. The Jets couldn't have brought him back if they wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 What's your point? And Brady was picked in the 6th and Stevie Johnson was taken in the 7th. Mankins, Iupati, Grubbs, Faneca were all taken in the first round. The point being that you're as likely to get really good guards in the fourth round as you are in the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If you get #13 and want to draft Warmack, fine. But to bang the table for Warmack and Cooper because they'll "both be Pro Bowlers" is silly. The same logic holds for drafting the top punter at 9 and the top kicker at 13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 The point being that you're as likely to get really good guards in the fourth round as you are in the first. Ok, Robert Mathis was in the 5th so why not take a passrusher then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 If you get #13 and want to draft Warmack, fine. But to bang the table for Warmack and Cooper because they'll "both be Pro Bowlers" is silly. The same logic holds for drafting the top punter at 9 and the top kicker at 13. Yeah b/c guys like Faneca, Mankins, Iupati, and Grubbs haven't been instrumental in their teams success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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