This Mock draft has us taking LSU Mingo at 9

[unbanmadmike1]

JohnnyHector, on 02 Apr 2013 - 11:42, said:

You won't know until you put them on the field, but I'd rather find that out - at a lesser cost than in the past (due to rookie wage scale) - than pound my chest about selecting the "next Steve Hutchinson" at a relatively fungible position.

That's not an argument though. You're talking about a 70% chance at the next Hutch vs a 20% or less shot at the next Ware.

[#27TheDominator]

I skipped over the slapfight between you and Tom, so I'm not sure.

 

i think that was a different slap fight.  T0m and I were fighting Abraham only.  Not the merits of Goodwin.  

[JohnnyHector]

That's not an argument though. You're talking about a 70% chance at the next Hutch vs a 20% or less shot at the next Ware.

 

This is a good rebuttal... I'll start throwing arbitrary numbers out to represent the probability of future events that there is no possibly way to quantify to make my opinion look more valid.

[unbanmadmike1]

JohnnyHector, on 02 Apr 2013 - 11:46, said:

This is a good rebuttal... I'll start throwing arbitrary numbers out to represent the probability of future events that there is no possibly way to quantify to make my opinion look more valid.

So you're saying that huge question mark players like Mingo or Werner have as much of a chance of becoming impact players in the NFL than Cooper or Warmack do? You'd be pretty much the only one saying that.

[Sperm Edwards]

Who do you want to take there? Because I can make an argument that any of those "playmakers" who will be available there, are not a good fit for the Jets or a smart pick.

 

I'm not that up on this year's class so I will let everyone else tell me who is good and who sucks.  I just don't like a guard that early.  

 

Trade down 7-10 slots, grab an extra 2nd or 3rd-plus (if such a trade-down is possible), and then take him if he's still there.  Last year DeCastro was supposedly a lock to get taken top 10-ish also.  He dropped to #24.  Every year before the draft actually happens they say this one's different.

 

But the Jets need some playmakers on offense, not someone to make crappy offensive players look less crappy.

[JohnnyHector]

So you're saying that huge question mark players like Mingo or Werner have as much of a chance of becoming impact players in the NFL than Cooper or Warmack do? You'd be pretty much the only one saying that.

 

No, I'm saying that the numbers you're throwing out are complete bull****, as they are not rooted in any measurable variables.

 

I'm also saying that I don't care who has a better chance of being an impact player, because a Pro Bowl pass rusher is far more important than a Pro Bowl guard.  Throw in Tavon Austin as well, as I'd much rather swing for the fences with him than take a freaking interior lineman in the top-10.  

 

If taking the player most likely to reach his potential was the best way to approach the draft, then Warmack and Cooper should both go in the top-5.

[dbatesman]

So you're saying that huge question mark players like Mingo or Werner have as much of a chance of becoming impact players in the NFL than Cooper or Warmack do? You'd be pretty much the only one saying that.

 

Mingo has at least a 64.3% chance of being the next Aldon Smith.

[slats]

So you're saying that huge question mark players like Mingo or Werner have as much of a chance of becoming impact players in the NFL than Cooper or Warmack do? You'd be pretty much the only one saying that.

They absolutely do. Guards are never impact players.

[unbanmadmike1]

I'm not that up on this year's class so I will let everyone else tell me who is good and who sucks.  I just don't like a guard that early.  

 

Trade down 7-10 slots, grab an extra 2nd or 3rd-plus (if such a trade-down is possible), and then take him if he's still there.  Last year DeCastro was supposedly a lock to get taken top 10-ish also.  He dropped to #24.  Every year before the draft actually happens they say this one's different.

 

But the Jets need some playmakers on offense, not someone to make crappy offensive players look less crappy.

I'm 100% for trading down. I doubt they will be able to though.

[Untouchable]

Here's the thing: the O-line doesn't need fixing. Everything else does.

The OL doesn't need fixing?

We're set to enter the season with Ducasse and Colon starting for f*ck sake.

Ducasse is a marginal backup at best and Colon can't stay healthy to save his life.

If you don't think the OL could stand to be upgraded, then get used to whoever our QB is getting killed and a sh*tload of those "two yards and a cloud of dust" runs up the middle.

[Sperm Edwards]

they can't afford Revis. They can't afford Chance Warmack's 2nd contract. The Jets can't afford anyone! 

 

also this "2013 is already over" routine can't be the way Idzik is thinking. They aren't gonna spend big money but it's realistic to hope for better than 6-10. No NFL team goes into the season believing their a loser. It's not how any1 in the league thinks. 

 

Who said they can't afford either one? They can.  It's just not a good allocation of cap space (according to most, here and among NFL GMs who won't even offer us a late first round pick for Revis).

 

I'm saying that you don't get him cheaply as long as we used to.  We had Mangold at $2M/year for half a decade.  In addition to getting a top-notch center, he also didn't eat into the cap, allowing us to spend millions more elsewhere.  When he makes $8M/year, it's not as good for the team.  He may still be the same player, but one way you get Mangold + Landry.  The other way you get just Mangold.  If we could just raid Woody's bank account with no regard for the cap like the Yankees, then I'd say spend Mr.Luckysperm's inheritance into oblivion.  But like Mangold from $2M to $8M, having Revis hit the cap at $4M/year is not the same as $8-10M/year, let alone having him hit it at $16M/year.

 

Of course we can afford it.  But that doesn't make it the best way of spending finite resources.  You're talking about, in a few years (if our #9 pick guard is all that), having a LT-LG-C combo hitting the cap at some $30M/year.

 

Not saying a G would be bad or not even a worthwhile pick.  Just saying that it isn't a 100% given that he gets re-signed if we're facing the prospect of 3/5 of our OL costing $30M/year (not to mention, if you had your way, paying a CB $15M/year if that's what it takes to keep him).  3 offensive linemen and a CB for $45M? I don't care how great those players are individually, you are not fielding a winning team with that type of cap allocation.  Literally every draft pick would have to not only hit paydirt, but they'd have to hit it big while under their rookie contracts for that to work out (and also don't tear up those rookie deals like we did with Revis).

[sirlancemehlot]

. The guy is basically John Hannah dipped in chocolate.

Mmmmmmm.....John Hannah

[bitonti]

Of course we can afford it.  But that doesn't make it the best way of spending finite resources.  You're talking about, in a few years (if our #9 pick guard is all that), having a LT-LG-C combo hitting the cap at some $30M/year.

 

looking into the future, maybe Mangold doesn't get a 3rd contract from the Jets. He will be 8x Pro Bowl and nearing the end. Guys like Saturday, Mawae tend to move on after a while. If he wants to be team friendly that's great but he's not gonna make 10 mil per year at that point in his career. At least not with the Jets. 

 

Brick is gonna keep going forever, like Lomas Brown.

[bitonti]

The OL doesn't need fixing?

We're set to enter the season with Ducasse and Colon starting for f*ck sake.

Ducasse is a marginal backup at best and Colon can't stay healthy to save his life.

 

 

I go back and forth on this. the real question is could Idzik have Mingo or Jarvis Jones higher on his board than Warmack and Cooper? 

[Sperm Edwards]

looking into the future, maybe Mangold doesn't get a 3rd contract from the Jets. He will be 8x Pro Bowl and nearing the end. Guys like Saturday, Mawae tend to move on after a while. If he wants to be team friendly that's great but he's not gonna make 10 mil per year at that point in his career. At least not with the Jets. 

 

Brick is gonna keep going forever, like Lomas Brown.

 

Why draft someone at #9 then if someone as good or essentially as good is available in free agency every year?

[T0mShane]

Nnamdi signs with 49ers: 1 year, $3 mil.

Good luck with that negotiation, Darrelle.

[faba]

Nnamdi signs with 49ers: 1 year, $3 mil.

Good luck with that negotiation, Darrelle.

That is called a pay cut.

[HessStation]

Nnamdi signs with 49ers: 1 year, $3 mil.

Good luck with that negotiation, Darrelle.

Not sure how accurate this website is but...http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cornerback/

 

So anyway...I ******* hate Revis so much at this point I just want him off the team tbh. 

[jetsjetsjetss]

just watched some tape on mingo what do you guys see in him?

 

I get he had a good combine but watching some tape (maybe it was the game i watched) he was around plays but never really in them making the play

[jorge o8]

Fair enough. I actually think he does a good job getting off blocks and holding the edge in the games I watched. He also has the quickest first step of anyone in the draft imo. That said, no bench plus his size are definitely cause for concern.

im just saying that going to the nfl guys are stronger biger he wont do well, just my  opinion 

[bitonti]

just watched some tape on mingo what do you guys see in him?

 

I get he had a good combine but watching some tape (maybe it was the game i watched) he was around plays but never really in them making the play

 

 

when Mingo gets sacks, it's less than 4 seconds. Dion Jordan too. that's rare speed. People say Mingo's workout at LSU was awesome... legendary athleticism. He has a high motor, higher than all other DE in this crop. The only downside is he didn't bench and prob has less than ideal upper body strength. But that can be fixed.

[jetsjetsjetss]

when Mingo gets sacks, it's less than 4 seconds. Dion Jordan too. that's rare speed. People say Mingo's workout at LSU was awesome... legendary athleticism. He has a high motor, higher than all other DE in this crop. The only downside is he didn't bench and prob has less than ideal upper body strength. But that can be fixed.

 

i did notice that he looks like a freak freak athlete. But looking at the tape hes just not making that many plays. His speed gets him there but someone else is making the tackle idk i just dont think thats someone you take at 9.

[bitonti]

i did notice that he looks like a freak freak athlete. But looking at the tape hes just not making that many plays. His speed gets him there but someone else is making the tackle idk i just dont think thats someone you take at 9.

 

 

i guess it's pick your poison with these DE/OLB, you can take the great athlete with not ideal production (Mingo, Jordan, Ansah) or you can take the terrible athlete with great production (jones).

 

Jarvis Jones appears to be dropping like a stone, the draft is all about upside. It seems like Mingo is more like a guy you take at 9 than Jones. 

[HessStation]

when Mingo gets sacks, it's less than 4 seconds. Dion Jordan too. that's rare speed. People say Mingo's workout at LSU was awesome... legendary athleticism. He has a high motor, higher than all other DE in this crop. The only downside is he didn't bench and prob has less than ideal upper body strength. But that can be fixed.

his vertical is higher than Dwight Howard's per that Sports Science thing on ESPN. That's pretty impressive.

[HessStation]

i did notice that he looks like a freak freak athlete. But looking at the tape hes just not making that many plays. His speed gets him there but someone else is making the tackle idk i just dont think thats someone you take at 9.

How is a guy that's always around the ball a bad thing? That's probably the best defense in the nation he was on. Not his fault other guys could make plays too But I get your concern and it's fair. His production via stats are very pedestrian.

[unbanmadmike1]

bitonti, on 03 Apr 2013 - 11:03, said:

i guess it's pick your poison with these DE/OLB, you can take the great athlete with not ideal production (Mingo, Jordan, Ansah) or you can take the terrible athlete with great production (jones).

Jarvis Jones appears to be dropping like a stone, the draft is all about upside. It seems like Mingo is more like a guy you take at 9 than Jones.

Mingo's size is just a big big worry and drafting a guy who you go in knowing will have to completely change his body to be a good NFL player is a bridge too far for me.

[HessStation]

Mingo's size is just a big big worry and drafting a guy who you go in knowing will have to completely change his body to be a good NFL player is a bridge too far for me.

Questioning his production is fair.

This size thing is getting absurd. The guy is 6'5 and can jump through the roof. Watch any game including vs alabama and he holds and sets the edge just fine. He has no character concerns anyone knows of and is considered to have a good motor while runnjng 4.6 40's at 240. 10 lbs more makes him the average weight for a 34 OLB. Mind you the other guys Jordan and Jones are the same weight, Jordan even more slight, Ansah built more like a DE, and Werner doesn't really compare athletically. Jamie Collins, another name we keep hearing about, also the same weight.

Also, take a look at most LBs who transition from college to the NFL and probably a third of them gain 10 lbs automatically.

[unbanmadmike1]

Questioning his production is fair.

This size thing is getting absurd. The guy is 6'5 and can jump through the roof. Watch any game including vs alabama and he holds and sets the edge just fine. He has no character concerns anyone knows of and is considered to have a good motor while runnjng 4.6 40's at 240. 10 lbs more makes him the average weight for a 34 OLB. Mind you the other guys Jordan and Jones are the same weight, Jordan even more slight, Ansah built more like a DE, and Werner does really compare athletically.

Also, take a look at most LBs who transition from college to the NFL and probably a third of them gain 10 lbs automatically.

Maybin's character and motor wern't question marks either.

[bitonti]

if Mingo, Jordan or Ansah make it to 9 they are pretty easy picks (no brainers) due to physical upside and positional need. All of these prospects have higher grades than Tavon Austin and Tyler Eifert. Chance is probably a stronger grade than these guys but the positional rareness of pass rusher usually trumps guard. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if Mingo is there, it's not that hard of a pick. He's physically real similar to Bruce Irvin, who John Idzik drafted last year. Mingo will not need to transform his body, they aren't drafting him to be Bryan Thomas. They would be drafting him to pass rush.  

 

after the LSU pro day it might be somewhat of a surprise if he's there. Mingo really impressed people last week. 

[unbanmadmike1]

if Mingo, Jordan or Ansah make it to 9 they are pretty easy picks (no brainers) due to physical upside and positional need. All of these prospects have higher grades than Tavon Austin and Tyler Eifert. Chance is probably a stronger grade than these guys but the positional rareness of pass rusher usually trumps guard. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if Mingo is there, it's not that hard of a pick. He's physically real similar to Bruce Irvin, who John Idzik drafted last year. Mingo will not need to transform his body, they aren't drafting him to be Bryan Thomas. They would be drafting him to pass rush.  

 

after the LSU pro day it might be somewhat of a surprise if he's there. Mingo really impressed people last week.

If he's Bruce Irvin he's not worth a top 10 pick in my opinion.

[bitonti]

If he's Bruce Irvin he's not worth a top 10 pick in my opinion.

 

8 sacks as a rookie, i'd take it. 

[unbanmadmike1]

bitonti, on 03 Apr 2013 - 11:49, said:

8 sacks as a rookie, i'd take it.

And a liability in every other aspect of the game.

[HessStation]

Maybin's character and motor wern't question marks either.

 

What does Aaron Maybin have anything to do with Barkevious Mingo?

[unbanmadmike1]

HessStation, on 03 Apr 2013 - 11:58, said:

What does Aaron Maybin have anything to do with Barkevious Mingo?

He has a high bust potential for the same reasons Maybin did.

[HessStation]

He has a high bust potential for the same reasons Maybin did.

 

That's a cheap way out. Explain. What are the similarities? Why does he have a high bust potential in relation to Maybin as a prospect?