T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Yeah b/c guys like Faneca, Mankins, Iupati, and Grubbs haven't been instrumental in their teams success. Because those guys happen to play on teams with great skill position players. Mangold and Brick were both first rounders--how awesome did Shonn Greene look last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionelRichie Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You only notice what those guys bring when they are gone. Remember the game old "whathisname" started in place of Mangold and couple of years ago? What a disaster. Another reason to like Cooper, since he can be plugged in at center. Even worse - the only reason that old "whathisname" was even in the game was because Ducasse was so bad that he got Rob Turner's leg broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Because those guys happen to play on teams with great skill position players. Mangold and Brick were both first rounders--how awesome did Shonn Greene look last year? Once again you're getting off track. Shonn Greene, in the opinion of most Jet fans...and the NFL, is probably better suited as a back up RB, ran for over 1,000 yards and 8 TDs. Fwiw, (trying to get back to the real issue here) the Jets aren't bringing back either of their starting Guards and just signed an oft injured vet to a one year minimum. I'd say there is a substantial need for a good player at the position. The widely considered best player in the entire draft could still be there when they pick. Could/would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Those are two different issues. The fact that Pace and Thomas were mediocre doesn't change that Abraham is a soft gutless player who sat out playoff games with the sniffles. Cause you say it, it is so. Abraham laying down in the playoffs is one of the most overstated things on this board and in a place where every player is either a first ballot HOF'er or the worst ever to don a uniform that is saying something. You believe that and keep preaching it so that every a$$hole on this board that wasn't even alive when those games happens believes it, but I saw him unable to run with his knee, but everybody acts like he was dogging it. I know the flu game was supposedly a hangover, but it was one game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Once again you're getting off track. Shonn Greene, in the opinion of most Jet fans...and the NFL, is probably better suited as a back up RB, ran for over 1,000 yards and 8 TDs. Fwiw, (trying to get back to the real issue here) the Jets aren't bringing back either of their starting Guards and just signed an oft injured vet to a one year minimum. I'd say there is a substantial need for a good player at the position. Most certainly agreed. However, if you're making a shopping list of the things this roster needs, a guard is probably #8 or 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Revisionist. Abraham was a pariah after voluntarily sitting out the playoffs. The Jets couldn't have brought him back if they wanted to. Voluntarily sitting out the playoffs my ass. That was a ******* farce. The Raiders game we can bitch about, not the 2004 knee injury. Klecko missed plenty of games too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Cause you say it, it is so. Abraham laying down in the playoffs is one of the most overstated things on this board and in a place where every player is either a first ballot HOF'er or the worst ever to don a uniform that is saying something. You believe that and keep preaching it so that every a$$hole on this board that wasn't even alive when those games happens believes it, but I saw him unable to run with his knee, but everybody acts like he was dogging it. I know the flu game was supposedly a hangover, but it was one game. Abraham was literally jumping up and down on the sideline during that Steeler game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Voluntarily sitting out the playoffs my ass. That was a ******* farce. The Raiders game we can bitch about, not the 2004 knee injury. Klecko missed plenty of games too. Jumping up and down. Then he admitted to sitting out because of his "future." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 You also haven't made any affirmative argument for taking any other player which is pretty much the crux of it. I haven't seen the first eight selections, yet, but I'll happily take the BAP from a position of consequence. In this draft, the best pass rusher or WR will be fine. You only notice what those guys bring when they are gone. Remember the game old "whathisname" started in place of Mangold and couple of years ago? What a disaster. Another reason to like Cooper, since he can be plugged in at center. There is quite a disparity in talent from the best guard in football to old whatshisname. I'm not recommending they go with the worst guard in football. They just need a decent starter, and that can be found in the middle rounds. Spending a top 10 pick on a guard is a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Believe what you want, I will believe what I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Believe what you want, I will believe what I saw. Which was an allegedly injured player, who was on record saying he cared more about Pro Bowls than Super Bowls, who admitted to sitting out because of his future, jumping up and down on the sideline of a playoff game. I'm no doctor, but that's suspicious behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Which was an allegedly injured player, who was on record saying he cared more about Pro Bowls than Super Bowls, who admitted to sitting out because of his future, jumping up and down on the sideline of a playoff game. I'm no doctor, but that's suspicious behavior. I watched him try to practice. You can hate him. I can't stop any of you, but you will never convince me that the guy was ready to play because I watched him and the main reason all you people believe he was going to play was Herm Edwards gave one of his great "we're gonna see what he can do and if he can go he'll go" speeches about him at the presser. I won't respond anymore, so go ahead and bash him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Most certainly agreed. However, if you're making a shopping list of the things this roster needs, a guard is probably #8 or 9. ...for all the concern over taking an OG at 9... 2010 Iupati was taken at 17, MLB Rolando McClain was taken at 9. 2007 Grubbs was taken at 29, WR Ted Ginn Jr was taken at 9. 2006 Davin Joseph taken 23, LB Ernie Simms was taken at 9 2005 Mankins at 32, CB Carlos Rogers was taken at 9....btw, for all the concern over salary cap, Rogers the only 9th pick who amounts to anything... the Redskins couldn't afford to keep him anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 I haven't seen the first eight selections, yet, but I'll happily take the BAP from a position of consequence. In this draft, the best pass rusher or WR will be fine. There is quite a disparity in talent from the best guard in football to old whatshisname. I'm not recommending they go with the worst guard in football. They just need a decent starter, and that can be found in the middle rounds. Spending a top 10 pick on a guard is a waste. But there is no WR worth taking there and the pass rushers all have huge question marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Most certainly agreed. However, if you're making a shopping list of the things this roster needs, a guard is probably #8 or 9. Ducasse is probably the worst starting OL in the NFL right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 But there is no WR worth taking there and the pass rushers all have huge question marks. Exactly. It's a risk reward. In what is considered a weaker top end first round, as a first time GM, on somewhat of a rebuilding project, why not take more of the sure thing, at a position of need, a position in which, most great teams have a really good to great player at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Exactly. It's a risk reward. In what is considered a weaker top end first round, as a first time GM, on somewhat of a rebuilding project, why not take more of the sure thing, at a position of need, a position in which, most great teams have a really good to great player at. Further, just the fact that the Jets aren't going to be able to trade down is pretty much making this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Mostro Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Exactly. It's a risk reward. In what is considered a weaker top end first round, as a first time GM, on somewhat of a rebuilding project, why not take more of the sure thing, at a position of need, a position in which, most great teams have a really good to great player at. Yep. Whiffing trying to hit a home run is exactly what this franchise doesn't need. Time to go with solid, non-flashy picks rather than the hit or miss approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted April 1, 2013 Share Posted April 1, 2013 Mingo is actually the "grittiest" of all the DE. He is known for his non-stop motor believe it or not. he just makes me think of Mayvin, fast but cant get of blocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 he just makes me think of Mayvin, fast but cant get of blocks How you draw that conclusion from hearing the guy has a non stop motor, I dunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorge o8 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 How you draw that conclusion from hearing the guy has a non stop motor, I dunno. no i have seen games and he is not that great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 How you draw that conclusion from hearing the guy has a non stop motor, I dunno. It's a bad comparison. Maybin's motor wasn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 no i have seen games and he is not that great Fair enough. I actually think he does a good job getting off blocks and holding the edge in the games I watched. He also has the quickest first step of anyone in the draft imo. That said, no bench plus his size are definitely cause for concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slats Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Yep. Whiffing trying to hit a home run is exactly what this franchise doesn't need. Time to go with solid, non-flashy picks rather than the hit or miss approach. Taking a guard in the top ten is a chickensh*t move, with virtually no upside. High quality guards are found in the later rounds every draft. Brandon Moore has been a fixture at guard for the Jets. An undrafted defensive lineman they converted. That's the way you replace guards. The most successful lines in football are littered with low picks. The Jets OL was also very good last year, it's every skill position that wasn't. Flash is exactly what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 The other problem with picking a guard at 9 and saying we have the position locked up for long-term is that we do not. You can't sign a rookie to longer than a 4 year contract, so there's a chance you draft the guy and just 3 seasons later you're giving him a huge contract if he's all that. Now throw in that - and having the attitude that there is no rebuilding year doesn't change that 2013 is going to be just that - year 1 of those 3 we're not winning anything and we could see that in March. So we get 2 solid years, from an OG, before we need to treat him like a high priced free agent (or risk losing him). We can pick up other guys - maybe not as good as either of these two - but we can pick up other guards between their potential level and the Slauson level and don't need to burn the #9 pick for that upgrade. I'd prefer to use a top 10 pick on a guy who we could never ever get in free agency because a team that has him under contract will never let him get that far. Now every one of the pass rushers in this draft can end up being busts but if you believe in your scouting you go with the best one. DeMarcus Ware never hits free agency in his prime. Drew Brees needed to have his labrum separated a few weeks earlier, combined with SD drafting Rivers (Eli) in the top 5 just two years earlier, to hit free agency. But pro bowl interior linemen hit free agency almost every season. Pony up an extra million or so per season, if that's your alleged missing piece, and he's all yours. So I'd lean towards a playmaker that you can't find in free agency. A WR, a DE/OLB pass rusher, or a QB or RB if anyone can rationalize taking one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Sperm Edwards, on 02 Apr 2013 - 09:24, said: So I'd lean towards a playmaker that you can't find in free agency. A WR, a DE/OLB pass rusher, or a QB or RB if anyone can rationalize taking one. Who do you want to take there? Because I can make an argument that any of those "playmakers" who will be available there, are not a good fit for the Jets or a smart pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 The other problem with picking a guard at 9 and saying we have the position locked up for long-term is that we do not. You can't sign a rookie to longer than a 4 year contract, so there's a chance you draft the guy and just 3 seasons later you're giving him a huge contract if he's all that. Now throw in that - and having the attitude that there is no rebuilding year doesn't change that 2013 is going to be just that - year 1 of those 3 we're not winning anything they can't afford Revis. They can't afford Chance Warmack's 2nd contract. The Jets can't afford anyone! also this "2013 is already over" routine can't be the way Idzik is thinking. They aren't gonna spend big money but it's realistic to hope for better than 6-10. No NFL team goes into the season believing their a loser. It's not how any1 in the league thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Taking a guard in the top ten is a chickensh*t move, with virtually no upside. High quality guards are found in the later rounds every draft. Brandon Moore has been a fixture at guard for the Jets. An undrafted defensive lineman they converted. That's the way you replace guards. The most successful lines in football are littered with low picks. The Jets OL was also very good last year, it's every skill position that wasn't. Flash is exactly what they need. The Jets can want flash, they can need flash but that doesn't mean they will get it in 2013. A team's needs doesn't control the year-to-year quality of the draft crop. Andy reid didn't really _need_ an OT but the best player by far was an OT so he found a way to make it work. picking for pure need, without regard for the quality of the prospect, is a hallmark of the Jets worst draft picks. what was Mark Sanchez in hindsight? A need reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 bitonti, on 02 Apr 2013 - 11:29, said: The Jets can want flash, they can need flash but that doesn't mean they will get it in 2013. A team's needs doesn't control the year-to-year quality of the draft crop. Andy reid didn't really _need_ an OT but the best player by far was an OT so he found a way to make it work. picking for pure need, without regard for the quality of the prospect, is a hallmark of the Jets worst draft picks. what was Mark Sanchez in hindsight? A need reach. BPA at 9 is going to be one of the guards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 BPA at 9 is going to be one of the guards. I tend to agree. Maybe the guard goes 8 to Buffalo who also lost Levitre, and the Jets take Cooper at 9. Cooper isn't gonna be around in the late teens. Whatever the Jets do I don't expect them to reach. the team take BPA is that so crazy to ask? It might be Mingo or Werner. Whoever the Jets pick i hope it's a player who won't drop much further if they didn't pick him. For example if the Jets picked Geno Smith that might save him a 20 slot drop to late round 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 a massive upgrade at guard is better than a bust at OLB, WR etc. I know we don't go into these things looking for impact guards in the top 10 but what you are saying is pick for need. and If it doesn't work it's a cheap mistake. The Jets can't afford any type of mistake with the state of the team the way it is. This pick has to be great. And if they trade Revis 2 picks have to be great. I see the Warmack pick as a hedge against Risk, from a GM who has done nothing risky since he took the job. You and Tom might think the risk at 9 is acceptable for whoever but Idzik hasn't done a risky thing all spring. One could easily argue that passing over the next DeMarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs for the sake of playing it safe is more "risky" than selecting a position that is easier to fill with a late-round pick/free agent. Elite pass rusher + JAG interior lineman >>>>>>>>>> elite interior lineman + JAG pass rusher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbanmadmike1 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 JohnnyHector, on 02 Apr 2013 - 11:38, said: One could easily argue that passing over the next DeMarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs for the sake of playing it safe is more "risky" than selecting a position that is easier to fill with a late-round pick/free agent. Elite pass rusher + JAG interior lineman >>>>>>>>>> elite interior lineman + JAG pass rusher Which player is the next Ware or Suggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 One could easily argue that passing over the next DeMarcus Ware or Terrell Suggs for the sake of playing it safe is more "risky" than selecting a position that is easier to fill with a late-round pick/free agent. Elite pass rusher + JAG interior lineman >>>>>>>>>> elite interior lineman + JAG pass rusher Wait... isn't this the argument we were having before? John Abraham + Jonathan Goodwin vs. Nick Mangold + Bryan Thomas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Which player is the next Ware or Suggs? You won't know until you put them on the field, but I'd rather find that out - at a lesser cost than in the past (due to rookie wage scale) - than pound my chest about selecting the "next Steve Hutchinson" at a relatively fungible position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Wait... isn't this the argument we were having before? John Abraham + Jonathan Goodwin vs. Nick Mangold + Bryan Thomas? I skipped over the slapfight between you and Tom, so I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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