Brian Winters ~ ~ ~

[Sperm Edwards]

you guys talk about competition but it has to be cheap competition. If they had drafted Chance Warmack instead of Dee Milliner, would they still bring in Stephen Peterman? There's something to be said about expectations. The Jets don't seem to be expecting Brian Winters to be an instant starter. 

 

Shocker, but I disagree 100% with your assessment of the situation as it's laid out.

 

First, I believe that is exactly what Peterman is.  He is dirt cheap with an almost invisible signing bonus ($65K) and he's only on a 1-year deal at the veteran minimum base salary.  You don't get any cheaper than this for a 31 year-old guy who's started at RG for 6 straight years.

 

Idzik would be an absolute fool to guarantee any pick outside the top 10 to be an instant starter (and technically, Milliner still has to beat out Wilson anyway).  Winters isn't the prospect Warmack is, and is unlikely to ever be the player Warmack will be, but I think they do expect Winters to start this year.  If he doesn't, there is a cheap, workable backup plan in place now.  It's actually refreshing to see the team doing this.

 

Why didn't Idzik sign Peterman before the draft, and instead wait until he'd already drafted Winters? Because Cooper was high enough on his board that he would have taken him if the draft went that way.  In that case, I agree they wouldn't bring Peterman in.  But it didn't go that way, so Idzik brought in a cheap insurance plan just in case the prospect he drafted isn't as good as his scouts said he is.  For all we know this was option 2 of the following plan:

 

1. Draft Cooper if he's available.

2. Draft a next-tier OG prospect and sign a dirt-cheap veteran for competition that is easily cuttable (or cheap enough to keep as a backup).

3. Neither 1 or 2 is available to us where we are willing to take them, and we only take later-round flyers on guard prospects who really can't start day one.  In this case we re-sign Brandon Moore for 2 years/$4-6M instead of Peterman for 1 year $900K.

 

When the backup draft plan is Winters, and the team has enough cap room to get someone better, I think it absolutely says they expect Winters to start.  There is a difference between expecting him to start and guaranteeing him to start by handing him the job with no competition or backup plan at all.  Frankly if he can't beat out 2012's worst graded guard he shouldn't be starting.

 

I think Idzik feels he'll find out in the spring/summer how right or how wrong his scouts are, and has a backup plan in place in case they're wrong, which is how it should be.  Frankly, the strategy is perfect.

[bitonti]

 but I think they do expect Winters to start this year.   

 

at what position? 

[Sperm Edwards]

at what position? 

 

Whichever guard position he's shows to be more suited to, but my guess is Winters at RG and Colon at LG.  Colon was a RT and a LG in Pittsburgh so it stands to reason he could play either guard position as well.  

 

But I think it'll end up with Colon at LG and Winters at RG unless he is so obviously worse than Peterman this summer.

[bitonti]

Whichever guard position he's shows to be more suited to, but my guess is Winters at RG and Colon at LG.  Colon was a RT and a LG in Pittsburgh so it stands to reason he could play either guard position as well.  

 

But I think it'll end up with Colon at LG and Winters at RG unless he is so obviously worse than Peterman this summer.

 

What if Winters is more suited to LG? Do you move Colon to RG? 

[SenorGato]

What if Winters is more suited to LG? Do you move Colon to RG?

Yes, almost without question.

[Sperm Edwards]

What if Winters is more suited to LG? Do you move Colon to RG? 

 

Sure, why not?  If Colon can play LG and RT I can't believe that RG would be a problem for him.

 

And if Peterman is better at RG than Colon then we could do that as well, with Colon sticking around as a 2 or 3 position backup.

 

This is why I like the plan.  It leaves more options than the 1 you merely hope pans out by day 1 and continues for 16 straight games.

[Bleedin Green]

Sure, why not?  If Colon can play LG and RT I can't believe that RG would be a problem for him.

 

And if Peterman is better at RG than Colon then we could do that as well, with Colon sticking around as a 2 or 3 position backup.

 

This is why I like the plan.  It leaves more options than the 1 you merely hope pans out by day 1 and continues for 16 straight games.

 

Exactly.  Idzik is clearly planning ahead and trying to have his bases covered regardless how things end up turning out this summer, which is exactly what he should be doing.  I think this whole concept of actually having depth simply confuses Jets' fans, since it's something the Jets had absolutely none of during their time under Tanny, even when at their best.  Truth be told, the Jets' impressively clean health record (compared to the rest of the league) is the main reason they were lucky enough to not have it all blow up in their faces even sooner than it did.

[T0mShane]

Exactly. Idzik is clearly planning ahead and trying to have his bases covered regardless how things end up turning out this summer, which is exactly what he should be doing. I think this whole concept of actually having depth simply confuses Jets' fans, since it's something the Jets had absolutely none of during their time under Tanny, even when at their best. Truth be told, the Jets' impressively clean health record (compared to the rest of the league) is the main reason they were lucky enough to not have it all blow up in their faces even sooner than it did.

BOOM (shakalaka) BOOM

[JoeKlecko]

Exactly.  Idzik is clearly planning ahead and trying to have his bases covered regardless how things end up turning out this summer, which is exactly what he should be doing.  I think this whole concept of actually having depth simply confuses Jets' fans, since it's something the Jets had absolutely none of during their time under Tanny, even when at their best.  Truth be told, the Jets' impressively clean health record (compared to the rest of the league) is the main reason they were lucky enough to not have it all blow up in their faces even sooner than it did.

 

This.  I've been saying the same thing for years, especially the last sentence.  

[bitonti]

Brandon Moore is still on the market. It's questionable that the 2013 RG will be better than Brandon Moore. And he's got years of cohesion with this gruop.  Just saying. 

[JoeKlecko]

you guys talk about competition but it has to be cheap competition. If they had drafted Chance Warmack instead of Dee Milliner, would they still bring in Stephen Peterman? There's something to be said about expectations. The Jets don't seem to be expecting Brian Winters to be an instant starter. 

 

Probably not because when you draft a player in the top 10, he almost HAS to start.  Warmack was very highly rated and for a reason.  Then again, he may still have signed Peterman as insurance.  

 

I think that Idzik is smart enough to know, however, that one doesn't have to have top 10 draft pick at OG.  It's one of the least important positions on the team.  Overdraft (and accordingly have to overpay) players there, and you don't have the $s and cap space left to bring in difference makers, impact players at the key playmaking positions.  It's ok if Winters isn't an instant starter (but I'll bet he is).  They have insurance and competition, which should make him better and he should push Peterman, Ducasse and Colon.

[JoeKlecko]

Brandon Moore is still on the market. It's questionable that the 2013 RG will be better than Brandon Moore. And he's got years of cohesion with this gruop.  Just saying. 

 

I hear you.  Moore's been one of my favorite Jets over the last 5-10 years or so.  That said, age and injuries have caught up with him and he isn't the future.  If Ducasse and Winters are up to it, I'd rather have them start at OG since they may be the future there, even if their level of play isn't up to Moore's.  Moore is the past.  They're not going anywhere in 2013 anyway.  IMO every decision they make regarding who makes the roster, who starts, how they play, ought to be made with an eye to developing the team for 2014 and going forward.  If that causes them to lose another game or two in 2013 that they may have won otherwise, big deal.  It will be worth it if it better prepares them for 2014 and the future.

 

Now if Peterman is going to stay on the team as a veteran backup and insurance, then I'd rather he be replaced with Moore if Moore would accept a backup role.  I suspect that Moore still wants to start, however.  The only reasons I can see why the Jets wouldn't have brought back Moore are that he either wanted too much money or they felt he had little left in his tank, yet he sees things differently.

[kelly]

at what position? 

 

og

[bitonti]

more on winters, Phil Savage who used to be the CLE GM now runs the Senior Bowl, broke down the 3rd round. 

 

http://www.seniorbowl.com/news-highlights-detail.php?news=50

 

good news he calls Brian Winters a pro starter. bad news he does not identify him as "immediate help" that honor went to Larry Warford. 

[kelly]

more on winters, Phil Savage who used to be the CLE GM now runs the Senior Bowl, broke down the 3rd round. 

 

http://www.seniorbowl.com/news-highlights-detail.php?news=50

 

good news he calls Brian Winters a pro starter. bad news he does not identify him as "immediate help" that honor went to Larry Warford. 

 

he'll be starting for us by the end of this season

[Thor99]

you guys talk about competition but it has to be cheap competition. If they had drafted Chance Warmack instead of Dee Milliner, would they still bring in Stephen Peterman? There's something to be said about expectations. The Jets don't seem to be expecting Brian Winters to be an instant starter.

Didn't they sign Peterman before the draft?

[kelly]

Didn't they sign Peterman before the draft?

i think so...

 

[bitonti]

they signed Peterman during the draft. After the Brian Winters pick. 

 

There was a blurb about Winters that said Rex told him he'd be playing LG during the "hi we are drafting you" phonecall

 

I guess that means Colon to RG? or someone's gonna be on the bench. 

[kelly]

Good info....and tells exactly why it would have been pointless to draft a G at #9 because you can find prospects like this in the 3rd!! 

 

agreed...you can usually find good/productive ol players in the later rounds

[SickJetFan]

they signed Peterman during the draft. After the Brian Winters pick. 

 

There was a blurb about Winters that said Rex told him he'd be playing LG during the "hi we are drafting you" phonecall

 

I guess that means Colon to RG? or someone's gonna be on the bench. 

That would make a lot of sense for Winters since he was more of a road grader at LT, better to put the rook between DBrick and Mangold and put Colon on RG since he was a RT.  Now we can power rush to either direction - instead of the 1000x running behind Brandon Moore and getting stuffed

[#27TheDominator]

they signed Peterman during the draft. After the Brian Winters pick. 

 

There was a blurb about Winters that said Rex told him he'd be playing LG during the "hi we are drafting you" phonecall

 

I guess that means Colon to RG? or someone's gonna be on the bench. 

 

 

Winters - Peterman - Colon.  Wouldn't someone have to be on the bench anyway?

[bitonti]

at this early stage i think it's Colon vs Winters for LG and Peterman vs Vlad for RG. And forced to gamble i'd say Colon and Vlad start. with Winters waiting in the wings for when Colon eventually gets hurt (as he does every year). and maybe there's still a chance Brandon moore comes back. Cause Brick - Colon - Mangold - Moore - Howard is the best starting 5. at least in my book. 

[JoeKlecko]

Winters - Peterman - Colon.  Wouldn't someone have to be on the bench anyway?

 

Nah.  Mornhinweg's devising a new system where the team will start 6 OL.  They might as well since the WR and TE corps are going to be questionable anyway. 

[HessStation]

So the W1 starters are

D'brick

Colon

Mangold

Winters

Howard

...barring injury or something clicking in Vlad's peabrain.

[The Crusher]

This sounds like a botched draft pick. Somewhere along the lines, Jets scouting department screwed up. This guy is too durable to be a Jet. Never missed a game in four years? How did the Jets make the mistake of drafting him???

 

 

Gotta wonder.  LOL

[Bleedin Green]

So the W1 starters are

D'brick

Colon

Mangold

Winters

Howard

...barring injury or something clicking in Vlad's peabrain.

 

I think that's probably a pretty safe bet, although I'd guess you'll probably see Winters on the left side and Colon on the right based on what we've been hearing so far.  Peterman will be the first man on deck at both guard positions if needed because of injury or even if they happen to think Winters isn't quite ready yet at the start of the season.  I don't think Vlad has much of a chance, particularly since he doesn't really have anyone left around who would have reason to feel committed to him, particularly not compared to his 3 biggest competitors at the position who were all hand-picked by Idzik this offseason.

[bitonti]

I think that's probably a pretty safe bet, although I'd guess you'll probably see Winters on the left side and Colon on the right based on what we've been hearing so far.   

 

There's no evidence that either Winters or Colon are right guards. Colon is closer to a right guard, having played right tackle all those years, but neither man is an obvious choice at RG. Those two could fight it out for LG which leaves Vlad vs Peterman for RG. Its not unthinkable that Vlad wins and Peterman is cut. For all the crap we give Vlad over the years, he's better than Peterman. 

 

I still think free agent Brandon Moore is better than all of em and if the Jets want to win in 2013 the move is to bring back Moore.  People say the OL is improved from last season... I don't agree. After looking at all the teams, I have the Jets 16th in the OL rankings. They lost both guards and didn't spend much to replace. None of the replacements are as good as Moore. Brick didn't make the Pro Bowl and neither did Nick. Howard is ok but overall it's a huge loss of cohesion to bring in 5 new guards and expect half of em to learn a new position (Is Oday a guard? is William Campbell?).

 

They threw cheap bodies at the problem that's not the same as upgrading the line. the only good news is that Slauson is gone but at least he had years of experience playing with this group.  

[Bleedin Green]

There's no evidence that either Winters or Colon are right guards. Colon is closer to a right guard, having played right tackle all those years, but neither man is an obvious choice at RG. Those two could fight it out for LG which leaves Vlad vs Peterman for RG. Its not unthinkable that Vlad wins and Peterman is cut. For all the crap we give Vlad over the years, he's better than Peterman. 

 

I still think free agent Brandon Moore is better than all of em and if the Jets want to win in 2013 the move is to bring back Moore.  People say the OL is improved from last season... I don't agree. After looking at all the teams, I have the Jets 16th in the OL rankings. They lost both guards and didn't spend much to replace. None of the replacements are as good as Moore. Brick didn't make the Pro Bowl and neither did Nick. Howard is ok but overall it's a huge loss of cohesion to bring in 5 new guards and expect half of em to learn a new position (Is Oday a guard? is William Campbell?).

 

They threw cheap bodies at the problem that's not the same as upgrading the line. 

 

You could be right about most of this, but I think you are continuing to give Vlad way too much benefit of the doubt, as I think you have in the past.  He's proven himself to be pretty damn awful for 3 years running now and there's little reason to believe that's going to suddenly change.  That's why, despite the previous GM / offensive coaching staff building around the concept of moving Vlad into a starting role this year, Idzik immediately ran out and grabbed as many guards as he could get his hands on while avoiding spending too much for them.  I'm also not sure how there is any more evidence that Vlad is a RG than these other guys considering he's spent his entire time with the Jets at LG and couldn't even beat out a 6th rounder for that spot.  Of course that's why there is all of these camps and everything, to sort through all of this stuff.

 

I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of Moore coming back, but there's obviously reasons why it hasn't happened yet.  Part of it is probably money, and another part I'd imagine is that Idzik is clearly only looking for short-term solutions amongst veterans while they groom their young guys, which is something Moore may very well not be interested in coming back into.  The bottom line is that things could very easily change based on what happens with both health and performance in the coming months, but I think the Jets would ideally like to see Winters and Colon lock up the LG and RG spots respectively when all is said and done.  They've obviously prepared themselves with some alternate solutions if needed and I'm sure they'd go even further if necessary, but that doesn't mean it's what they're aiming to do.

[bitonti]

   I'm also not sure how there is any more evidence that Vlad is a RG than these other guys considering he's spent his entire time with the Jets at LG and couldn't even beat out a 6th rounder for that spot.  Of course that's why there is all of these camps and everything, to sort through all of this stuff.

 

that's a fair point. Note I didn't say Vlad was good, just that Peterman isn't any better.

 

i have seen several posters say the OL is better because the Jets addressed it in the draft. Taking Chance Warmack is addressing the OL. Taking Winters, Oday and William Campbell is throwing bodies at a problem. To be fair Winters will be a starter the question is when and where. Long term he might be the LG starter after Colon does a one year stint. but he's not an immediate starter and he's not as good as brandon Moore. None of these guys are. Moore is not signed by anyone right now because of money, he's asking too much but he is a former Pro Bowlers and the JEts probably need him the most out of all the guard-needy teams left.  Caleb Schlauderaff might actually be in the mix for a spot, he's also similar to Vlad/Peterman. 

[Bleedin Green]

that's a fair point. Note I didn't say Vlad was good, just that Peterman isn't any better.

 

i have seen several posters say the OL is better because the Jets addressed it in the draft. Taking Chance Warmack is addressing the OL. Taking Winters, Oday and William Campbell is throwing bodies at a problem. To be fair Winters will be a starter the question is when and where. Long term he might be the LG starter after Colon does a one year stint. but he's not an immediate starter and he's not as good as brandon Moore. None of these guys are. Moore is not signed by anyone right now because of money, he's asking too much but he is a former Pro Bowlers and the JEts probably need him the most out of all the guard-needy teams left.  Caleb Schlauderaff might actually be in the mix for a spot, he's also similar to Vlad/Peterman. 

 

Oh yeah, I'll admit there's certainly no guarantee by any means of an immediate upgrade from this group.  I think there's certainly more long-term potential in this group, but it's obviously a question of which of these guys actually realize their potential and even if so, when.  However, the one area I think you do have to concede an improvement in would be depth, something the Jets were notoriously horrid at addressing during Tanny's time here.  Of course, the question again becomes how well it works out, but in this case the effort is at least being made.  Even if they aren't ultimately upgrades, I still much prefer them going in with 5 or 6 guys who can fight it out for the job(s) as opposed to the Jets' 2011 strategy of handing the RT job to a career-long backup and having absolutely no backup plan available if it didn't work out (which as we all know, it certainly didn't).

[kelly]

So the W1 starters are

D'brick

Colon

Mangold

Winters

Howard

...barring injury or something clicking in Vlad's peabrain.

 

based on our current roster...yup

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cheers ~ ~

[SenorGato]

Couple of questions for bit:

- Why does Slauson getting less than a million from one of the worst OL teams in the league get significance?

- Why do the Jets have to spend money or high picks to replace their Gs?

- Brandon Moore has dealt with a hip injury for three+ years now and is in his mid-30s. Should we really be so sure he's a slam dunk upgrade? Not that I would be against bringing him back...

[bitonti]

Couple of questions for bit:

- Why does Slauson getting less than a million from one of the worst OL teams in the league get significance?

- Why do the Jets have to spend money or high picks to replace their Gs?

- Brandon Moore has dealt with a hip injury for three+ years now and is in his mid-30s. Should we really be so sure he's a slam dunk upgrade? Not that I would be against bringing him back...

 

Slauson leaving was addition by subtraction. Im not worried about Slauson leaving. Note that he's not starting for Chicago. They signed Slauson and then drafted a natural LG in Kyle Long in rd 1. Which says what they think about Slauson. Maybe he can beat out Garza at C. But he's basically a backup, which is what he should have been with the Jets. 

 

Why do they have to spend money? Or high picks? Because that's usually what it takes to get better right away. Everyone else is spending money and high picks to get better right away. The idea that the Jets can sign vet min guys while other teams sign Andy Levitre is pretending that the rules don't apply to the Jets. Is it possible that Brian Winters is better than Chance Warmack? Yes it's possible. It's just not likely. In the long term he could be a great starter but it's unlikely he will go from Kent State to the AFC east and be instantly good. Chance will be instantly good barring injury. If Winters had that type of impact potential he goes higher, cause the league clearly needs offensive linemen who can make an impact. 

 

 

Brandon Moore isn't John Hannah but he's a slam dunk upgrade over current personnel. It's not that Moore is so good. It's that the guys the Jets have lined up to replace him aren't good. The RG competition is Vlad vs Peterman. (Colon and Winters are in a LG competition). Moore is easily better than Vlad and Peterman and probably better than Colon and Winters.   Is it possible that either Colon or Winters start at RG a position neither has ever played? Yes it's possible but why did they sign Peterman if RG was so well stocked? 

[SickJetFan]

Slauson leaving was addition by subtraction. Im not worried about Slauson leaving. Note that he's not starting for Chicago. They signed Slauson and then drafted a natural LG in Kyle Long in rd 1. Which says what they think about Slauson. Maybe he can beat out Garza at C. But he's basically a backup, which is what he should have been with the Jets. 

 

Why do they have to spend money? Or high picks? Because that's usually what it takes to get better right away. Everyone else is spending money and high picks to get better right away. The idea that the Jets can sign vet min guys while other teams sign Andy Levitre is pretending that the rules don't apply to the Jets. Is it possible that Brian Winters is better than Chance Warmack? Yes it's possible. It's just not likely. In the long term he could be a great starter but it's unlikely he will go from Kent State to the AFC east and be instantly good. Chance will be instantly good barring injury. If Winters had that type of impact potential he goes higher, cause the league clearly needs offensive linemen who can make an impact. 

 

 

Brandon Moore isn't John Hannah but he's a slam dunk upgrade over current personnel. It's not that Moore is so good. It's that the guys the Jets have lined up to replace him aren't good. The RG competition is Vlad vs Peterman. (Colon and Winters are in a LG competition). Moore is easily better than Vlad and Peterman and probably better than Colon and Winters.   Is it possible that either Colon or Winters start at RG a position neither has ever played? Yes it's possible but why did they sign Peterman if RG was so well stocked? 

To Make ur argument you are forcing Colon into only being LG and Winters only being RG.  I think they are the best 2 guards on team and will prove to be 100x better than slouchsen and noMoore

[bitonti]

To Make ur argument you are forcing Colon into only being LG and Winters only being RG.  I think they are the best 2 guards on team and will prove to be 100x better than slouchsen and noMoore

 

You are probably right they are the two best guards on the team but they appear to be in a battle at left guard. 

 

It's a leap of faith to project Brian Winters, who played 50 games at left tackle, to start week 1 at right guard. Left tackles can usually bump inside to left guard without hassle. But then that leaves Colon to play RG, a position he's never played.