Building a Defense

[JoeKlecko]

My reasons for why he hasn't succeeded as much as he should are stated in other threads.  This thread is about defense, and Rex has done a pretty stellar job overall in that department, particularly with D-Linemen.  The offense has repeatedly put the defense in very difficult spots and more often than not they came through time and again.  Think any defense in the league could deal with coming back onto the field time and again after 3-and-outs and interceptions as often as our defense has and still put up victories?

 

All valid points, but you also can't argue with the fact that as often as it has come up big, the D has failed in big spots.  It frequently can't get off the field on 3rd downs, especially 3rd and longs, which ought to be gimmes.  There have also been a number of games where the D flat out didn't show up at all for a quarter, half or most of the game.

[JoeKlecko]

While I get what you're saying, I have two issues with this line of thinking.

 

1.  The Jets struggles against top teams has been much more heavily reliant on their awful offense and more specifically, their garbage QB.  The Jets have obviously gotten at least a few wins over the Pats and as far as those other teams are concerned, besides perhaps SF, in Rex's time here every other one of those teams you listed has had encounters with the Jets that saw the Jets D smack around the opposing offense all game long while Sanchez shat himself.  Not to say that the defense hasn't had their fair share of issues, but I don't think the overall team failures you're pointing to is a proper measure of that.

 

2.  Even though the defense certainly hasn't been perfect, what possible reason is their to believe that limiting the defensive scheme will somehow improve upon that performance?

 

Your points are valid.  On point #1, I agree that the offense is more to blame than the D, but think that the D has its share of blame as well.  There have been games where the D didn't show up for a quarter, half or most of the game, and many occasions where they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down, especially on 3rd and long, which should be gimmes.  Now I get that at least some of that is most likely due to the fact that the D is tired from having to be on the field so much, and probably more than a little discouraged knowing that Sanchez is just gonna give the ball back to the opposing team.

 

With regard to point #2, we all know that football players aren't rocket scientists for the most part.  Even with basic formations/packages, they take numerous repetitions to get their responsibilities down and master the subtleties of their position.

 

We also know that they play better when they don't have to think too much and can just relax and allow their talent and instincts to take over.  Well, in having several positions with varying responsibilities and subtleties to master, it gives them a lot more to think about, and at least potentially could cause some of them to be confused or to not allow their talent and instincts to come to the fore because they're having to think a lot.  I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, only wondering whether this could be part of the problem.  I think it was definitely part of the problem with Schottenheimer's system.  It is said to be very complex and with all the pre-snap motion, I think most of the players were never comfortable in it.  They had to think too much, and when you have players with Wunderlic scores in the teens and single digits, that's never a good thing.

 

Some very successful coaches have had philosophies that they weren't going to dazzle their opponents with the complexities of their systems, instead they kept things very simple, which enabled their players to really master their basic positions and responsibilities, and they won by out-executing their opponents.

 

As a teacher/coach myself, I know that it's very difficult to perform when one has to think too much.  The mind can only focus on so many things at one time.  I just think it's possible that Rex's system may be hurting in some ways as much as its helping in others.

[Jetsfan80]

All valid points, but you also can't argue with the fact that as often as it has come up big, the D has failed in big spots.  It frequently can't get off the field on 3rd downs, especially 3rd and longs, which ought to be gimmes.  There have also been a number of games where the D flat out didn't show up at all for a quarter, half or most of the game.

 

All teams have issues with that, and far more issues than we do.  It just gets magnified because our offense couldn't respond (like many other teams CAN).

[T0mShane]

I wrote a long diatribe about this yesterday and didn't end up posting it. I don't see any reason to radically change the D and asking for Rex to become a conventional 4-3 coach is a joke. No matter how much anyone dislikes Rex as a head coach, you have to admit he is a good to great DC. Why take away the thing he is good at?

Coples will not be any stiffer or less mobile at OLB than Pace or McIntyre. I don't see why we should worry about it. They will use him how they use those guys. The problems on D are similar to what they have been. The safeties are questionable and the LBs lack speed. Big whoop.

I think it would be really, really disappointing if Coples became the next Calvin Pace.

[SayNoToDMC]

I think it would be really, really disappointing if Coples became the next Calvin Pace.

I could live with it as long as some other team plays the part of the Jets and pays him like Demarcus Ware after his contract is up

[#27TheDominator]

I think it would be really, really disappointing if Coples became the next Calvin Pace.

 

Who doesn't?  OTOH, if he doesn't meet our expectations it won't be because he is too slow and stiff to do something that Calvin Pace has done at a decent level for the past half decade. 

[Smashmouth]

I see so Pace is a waste huh.  The OLB who is in 99% of all defensive snaps since he got here in top 5 defense....yeah ok.  do you even watch the games?

 

yes i do watch the games and yes Pace is a waste

[Matt39]

I think it would be really, really disappointing if Coples became the next Calvin Pace.

 

What's bizarre is Coples showed talent rushing from the inside last year...which is pretty much the only way to beat the Pats...this move is strange.

 

It'd be cool to get an off the record quote on Coples from someone...not sure how the org feels about him.

[SenorGato]

I really wish there was video or public numbers on Coples' rookie season so there was some way to verify the inside claim. I get the feeling it is largely based off of some reports out of college when the Jets announced they would use him on the line.

[Smashmouth]

I'm not saying that it's definitely a bad move, just that I can see Smash's questioning the move.  I think that's fair.  We all know that Rex is as much "mad scientist" as football coach.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

Thanks.

 

Your right all I did was question the move. Other than measureables what positive things can we say about Coples that translates to OLB ? Im just saying the guy seems to play much much better inside that he does outside and OLB's are usually much faster than Coples more agile and have better motors something Coples has been criticized for in the past. Its the same clowns who criticize yet have nothing to really offer the resason for the Original post .... How would you build a defense ?

 

JIF TBH your post makes you look like an idiot.  "Didnt read the post, too long...but I assume"  Really JIF ? Nice contribution as to how you would build the defense. Its obvious you disagree with be because your a Rex Apologist but the fact is our Defense does not show up CONSISTENTLY in big games vs Quality opponents just like Joe Klecko Said. Also Rex coached a boat load of HOF players in Baltimore , One on every level of that defense. He came here with some good players in place and the only 2 years this defense was anything close to dominant was year 1 and 2. The team lacks any speed or explosiveness at the LB position yeat we draft 4 DL with our top picks the past 3 years all while gaping holes exist at safety and LB.

[Smashmouth]

I really wish there was video on Coples' rookie season so there was some way to verify the inside claim. I get the feeling it is largely based off of some reports out of college when the Jets announced they would use him on the line.

 

no its based off of watching him play with the Jets . The college scounting report exists and the 2 major gripes on Coples was his play droped off when moved to DE and he gives up on plays at times during games which makes you wonder does he have the motor to play OLB/ There is nothing wrong with me questioning the move with Coples.

[#27TheDominator]

What's bizarre is Coples showed talent rushing from the inside last year...which is pretty much the only way to beat the Pats...this move is strange.

 

It'd be cool to get an off the record quote on Coples from someone...not sure how the org feels about him.

 

 

Does letting him play some OLB preclude him from rushing from the inside against the Pats?  Does the fact that they got Sheldon Richardson maybe indicate that they may have more options up the gut than in 2012?  

 

I don't know how people are drawing so many conclusions from watching Coples in 2012.  I watched most of the games more than once and didn't get too good a feel for him other than seeing a bunch of potential. 

[JiFtheOracle]

While being flexible can be a very good thing, there is also a possible downside/harm that perhaps you didn't consider.  Are you familiar with the saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none"?  Coples didn't see the field a lot last year and Rex has already called him out this offseason for his poor work ethic.  Is it possible that he didn't see the field that much early last year because he didn't learn the basic responsibilities of his position or master its intricacies?  If so, are they mastered now?   Also, if mastered now, why move him?  Will he put in the necessary work to learn the new position or will the switch accomplish the goal of getting him (or the best players) on the field?  If he hasn't mastered his primary responsibilities, why add something else to his plate?  That could make him struggle more or less effective.  In an ideal world, I'd like to see Coples excel at the position he was drafted to play before switching him to another position. 

 

I'm not saying that it's definitely a bad move, just that I can see Smash's questioning the move.  I think that's fair.  We all know that Rex is as much "mad scientist" as football coach.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

 

Fair enough but its not like he woke up yesterday and started playing Football.  He played all along the DLine in college, he did it last year for the Jets and he's had 2 years working with a couple of the best DL coaches in the league (Dunbar and Rex).  So this whole, not be able to master one position because he's being asked to play a few, just seems a little silly to be honest.  It not uncommon players know more than 1 position, especially if you play in the trenches.  

 

I'm sure he'll be fine.  Again, its not like he's being asked to play the position full time.  Rex is just being creative on how to get his best players on the field at the same time.  Thats a good thing.  

[JiFtheOracle]

Thanks.

 

Your right all I did was question the move. Other than measureables what positive things can we say about Coples that translates to OLB ? Im just saying the guy seems to play much much better inside that he does outside and OLB's are usually much faster than Coples more agile and have better motors something Coples has been criticized for in the past. Its the same clowns who criticize yet have nothing to really offer the resason for the Original post .... How would you build a defense ?

 

JIF TBH your post makes you look like an idiot.  "Didnt read the post, too long...but I assume"  Really JIF ? Nice contribution as to how you would build the defense. Its obvious you disagree with be because your a Rex Apologist but the fact is our Defense does not show up CONSISTENTLY in big games vs Quality opponents just like Joe Klecko Said. Also Rex coached a boat load of HOF players in Baltimore , One on every level of that defense. He came here with some good players in place and the only 2 years this defense was anything close to dominant was year 1 and 2. The team lacks any speed or explosiveness at the LB position yeat we draft 4 DL with our top picks the past 3 years all while gaping holes exist at safety and LB.

 

That post?  Of all my posts?  Please, I was declared an idiot years ago for much more deserving posts.  

 

The question is, was I right?  It seems I was.  It was the annual Smash plea to run the 4-3 because every player we have is better suited for it, while knowing damn well the Jets run multiple fronts.

[JoeKlecko]

I think it would be really, really disappointing if Coples became the next Calvin Pace.

 

Amen to that!!!

[Smashmouth]

That post?  Of all my posts?  Please, I was declared an idiot years ago for much more deserving posts.  

 

The question is, was I right?  It seems I was.  It was the annual Smash plea to run the 4-3 because every player we have is better suited for it, while knowing damn well the Jets run multiple fronts.

 

JIF obviously you dont read my posts ...

 

last year was NOT a plea to run the 4-3 at all , not in the least. It was me bringing up the point or the Question ...Will the Jets be going to a 4-3 based on the current draft picks we've been making ?? Thats the question I posed last year. So no you should not assume. Drafting Lineman when we seemed to have good depth at the position and drafting a realitively light fast ILB lean more towards the 4-3 philosophy. I also said I dont want to see the bail out excuse Rex = unconventional so he gets a pass.

 

In this post "Building a Defense"  I did push more for a 4-3 alignment and I questioned the movement of Coples which were both valid points. While I mentioned "conventional 4-3" the word conventional does not mean I want to exclusively run that type of defense NOR does it mean I want to see Rex become a vanilla coach as some have stated. It simply means I would like to see more of the 4-3 and see if we can generate more pressure from that,  in line with teams like the Giants who seem to give Brady a hard time making him very uncomfortable in the pocket. After all we do play him 2 times a year and the road to a division championship does go through NE .

 

Not sure whats so horrible about making those suggestions and Im not sure whats so horrible about pointing out that Coples does not seem to fit at OLB. I guess time will tell

[JoeKlecko]

Fair enough but its not like he woke up yesterday and started playing Football.  He played all along the DLine in college, he did it last year for the Jets and he's had 2 years working with a couple of the best DL coaches in the league (Dunbar and Rex).  So this whole, not be able to master one position because he's being asked to play a few, just seems a little silly to be honest.  It not uncommon players know more than 1 position, especially if you play in the trenches.  

 

I'm sure he'll be fine.  Again, its not like he's being asked to play the position full time.  Rex is just being creative on how to get his best players on the field at the same time.  Thats a good thing.  

 

The bolded portion of your quote is the very reason why I question Coples.  As you say, he already had experience moving around in college and worked with 2 of the best DL coaches in the league last season, yet it took him a LONG time to see much playing action last year, and was he even playing half the D snaps by the end of the season?

 

You may be right, and in fact, I hope that you are.  I hope that the idea of his not being able to play multiple positions is silly, as I'd rather see Coples be a stud wherever he plays, than be yet another Tanny flop.  The other thing is that if Coples is so good, then he should be starting somewhere and on the field most of the time.  I'd rather see him play OLB full time.  Pace should NOT be a starter at this point in his career.  About the only thing going for him is that he knows the system.  He's slow as molasses, probably couldn't cover half the posters on this board, and gets little or no consistent pressure on opposing QBs.

[#27TheDominator]

AAARRRRGGGGGH.

 

They are going to get more pressure in a 4-3?  Why?  Don't play Coples as an OLB? Why?  You want pressure put your best pass rushers on the field and let them rush the passer.  Who give a **** if they call him an OLB, DE or DT?  The Jets haven't been drafting 4-3 players.  They have been drafting faster front 7 players.  They lacked team speed on defense and tried to solve that.  

[Smashmouth]

AAARRRRGGGGGH.

 

They are going to get more pressure in a 4-3?  Why?  Don't play Coples as an OLB? Why?  You want pressure put your best pass rushers on the field and let them rush the passer.  Who give a **** if they call him an OLB, DE or DT?  The Jets haven't been drafting 4-3 players.  They have been drafting faster front 7 players.  They lacked team speed on defense and tried to solve that.  

 

who is Demario replacing ? Scott. What did Scott do ? Scott did it well becuase he weighed 255 and his job in this defense also broke him down as a player. He took on guards regularly. Explain to me how Demario Davis fits that mold ? Ok so he weighs 235 now good luck doing Scotts job inside. And TBH if you think this is OK watch teams run the ball down our throats while Demario gets manhandled on the inside.

[Smashmouth]

AAARRRRGGGGGH.

 

  They lacked team speed on defense and tried to solve that.  

 

So you lack team speed and you draft 4 DT types 3 years in a row ? LOL thats hilarious. Defensive lineman require Quickness and technique not speed . The 40 yards dash equates to NOTHING on the defesive line. Quickness off the ball strength and technique are what great DL excell in. OLB ? Now your talking speed ...exactly how many did the Jets draft or aquire ? Oh wait I forgot the 280 pound Coples will provide the speed on the edge LOL

[#27TheDominator]

who is Demario replacing ? Scott. What did Scott do ? Scott did it well becuase he weighed 255 and his job in this defense also broke him down as a player. He took on guards regularly. Explain to me how Demario Davis fits that mold ? Ok so he weighs 235 now good luck doing Scotts job inside. And TBH if you think this is OK watch teams run the ball down our throats while Demario gets manhandled on the inside.

 

They were too slow.  You want big and fast?  So does everybody else.  Harris is a big pounding ILB.  If he can't do Bart's job and blow up guards then THAT is where the problem lies.  FWIW, they can add a heavier ILB like Bart Scott.  They just can't pay him all that money and use him every down.  Davis was 235 at the combine, generally listed at 239 last year and is probably more now.  You aren't going to get Bart Scott in a player running a 4.5 40.  If you did you would probably be thinking of the top pick in the draft. 

[Sperm Edwards]

who is Demario replacing ? Scott. What did Scott do ? Scott did it well becuase he weighed 255 and his job in this defense also broke him down as a player. He took on guards regularly. Explain to me how Demario Davis fits that mold ? Ok so he weighs 235 now good luck doing Scotts job inside. And TBH if you think this is OK watch teams run the ball down our throats while Demario gets manhandled on the inside.

 

Bart Scott does not weigh 255 lbs.  I don't know where you get these numbers from, but wherever you get them from you then tack on another 5-15 lbs in whichever direction suits your argument.

 

Scott, at his fattest/slowest, ballooned up to maybe 250 for 1 year.  But that wasn't his weight when he was at his most dominant; it was his weight when he was fat.  Last year he dropped back down to the 235 after famously dropping 10-15 lbs and likely settled in in the 235-240 lb range during the season.  His listed weight ranges from 235-242 depending on where you look.  His listed weight, when he was in Baltimore, was 235 lbs.

 

If Scott ever got up to 255 lbs, it was when he sucked & needed to come off the field on passing downs because he was too f*cking heavy.

Bart Scott is not 255 lbs and Demario Davis is not 225 lbs.  In reality there's probably less than 5 lbs difference between the two.

[Larz]

rush the QB

 

everything else is window dressing, or how the jets do it

[Sperm Edwards]

They were too slow.  You want big and fast?  So does everybody else.  Harris is a big pounding ILB.  If he can't do Bart's job and blow up guards then THAT is where the problem lies.  FWIW, they can add a heavier ILB like Bart Scott.  They just can't pay him all that money and use him every down.  Davis was 235 at the combine, generally listed at 239 last year and is probably more now.  You aren't going to get Bart Scott in a player running a 4.5 40.  If you did you would probably be thinking of the top pick in the draft. 

 

You're nuts.  Whatever weight someone plays at when they're 20 year old college students, that's their weight for the entirety of their pro career.  Young athletes never fill out at all after age 20-22 you imbecile.

[Lupz27]

The problem with the defence is with stoping the run and covering the Pats tight ends 

 

Demario Davis, and Antonio Allen were drafted for this specific reason, lets see how it works out in year 2 before bashing Rex's plan to combat Beli's plan (which was succesful with Hernandez, and Gronk) to beat Ryan's aggressive exotic D.

[Smashmouth]

You're nuts.  Whatever weight someone plays at when they're 20 year old college students, that's their weight for the entirety of their pro career.  Young athletes never fill out at all after age 20-22 you imbecile.

 

hey dingbat I make it very clear in many of my posts that players fill out ...I made that case with Coples and Wilkerson but now it seems we're going to move Coples to the OLB position for yet another experiment. You made your point about Demario being at 235 and Im fine with that ...no need for the sarcasm.

[Smashmouth]

Demario Davis, and Antonio Allen were drafted for this specific reason, lets see how it works out in year 2 before bashing Rex's plan to combat Beli's plan (which was succesful with Hernandez, and Gronk) to beat Ryan's aggressive exotic D.

 

There is really only one way to stop the Pats and thats putting pressure on Brady up the Middle. The Giants have given the league the blue print for that 2 times. Trying to beat the pats by covering Gronk and Hernandez will lose you games more often than not.

[#27TheDominator]

I find it highly amusing that the Jets drafting "4 DT types in 3 years" is supposed to indicate they should move to the 4-3.  Kenrick Ellis and WIlkerson are basically prototypical 3-4 players.  Coples is as much an OLB as a DT.  One guy might look at him and see Justin Tuck, but there is at least as much OLB in what I have seen.  RIchardson is the wild card, but I'd like to think that they just had him at the top of their board and drafted BAP.

 

Davis, Coples and Bush can all fly for their size and last year is when they tried to remedy the team speed issue ASAP.  Idzik doesn't seem that caught up in it.

[T0mShane]

What's bizarre is Coples showed talent rushing from the inside last year...which is pretty much the only way to beat the Pats...this move is strange.

It'd be cool to get an off the record quote on Coples from someone...not sure how the org feels about him.

I'd imagine what happened is that Sheldon Richardson was dropped into Rex's lap, and he was forced to go to Plan B with Coples, which is to stand him up in order to get both him and Richardson on the field. Coples seemed lost on the edge, and was easily handled by left tackles. He doesn't seem to have that great first step to get around them.

[T0mShane]

I find it highly amusing that the Jets drafting "4 DT types in 3 years" is supposed to indicate they should move to the 4-3. Kenrick Ellis and WIlkerson are basically prototypical 3-4 players. Coples is as much an OLB as a DT. One guy might look at him and see Justin Tuck, but there is at least as much OLB in what I have seen. RIchardson is the wild card, but I'd like to think that they just had him at the top of their board and drafted BAP.

Davis, Coples and Bush can all fly for their size and last year is when they tried to remedy the team speed issue ASAP. Idzik doesn't seem that caught up in it.

You have never once seen Coples at OLB.

[#27TheDominator]

You have never once seen Coples at OLB.

 

 

That is correct.  I have never actually seen him as a true DT either.  Not since Carolina.  I don't doubt that he has played DT with the Jets, but I certainly never noticed him with anybody outside of him other than an OLB.  Your analysis with Richardson may be dead on.  It makes sense and seems likely but I wouldn't be surprised if Richardson doesn't see the field too much at first either - much the way Coples didn't.  

[SayNoToDMC]

You're nuts. Whatever weight someone plays at when they're 20 year old college students, that's their weight for the entirety of their pro career. Young athletes never fill out at all after age 20-22 you imbecile.

Well that just doesn't sound right at all but Im not a Dr. and you seem like a really smart guy so I trust you

[T0mShane]

That is correct. I have never actually seen him as a true DT either. Not since Carolina. I don't doubt that he has played DT with the Jets, but I certainly never noticed him with anybody outside of him other than an OLB. Your analysis with Richardson may be dead on. It makes sense and seems likely but I wouldn't be surprised if Richardson doesn't see the field too much at first either - much the way Coples didn't.

It's just odd the way Rex has handled Coples, starting last year with the "benching" in OTAs, to parsing his playing time sporadically. You really have to wonder if Coples is a huge headache off the field, or if Rex has decided that Coples is his personal project. Lord knows he doesn't treat any other player that way. It's likewise strange that Coples' better moments seemed to come when he blew past a guard to get the sack or the pressure. I don't recall one time where he came off the edge to make a play. I won't really worry about it until I hear the dreaded "we've asked him to lose twenty pounds" line that seems almost inevitable at this point.

[#27TheDominator]

It's just odd the way Rex has handled Coples, starting last year with the "benching" in OTAs, to parsing his playing time sporadically. You really have to wonder if Coples is a huge headache off the field, or if Rex has decided that Coples is his personal project. Lord knows he doesn't treat any other player that way. It's likewise strange that Coples' better moments seemed to come when he blew past a guard to get the sack or the pressure. I don't recall one time where he came off the edge to make a play. I won't really worry about it until I hear the dreaded "we've asked him to lose twenty pounds" line that seems almost inevitable at this point.

 

I agree.  I find it odd that most of the board seemed to find him a success.  He strikes me more as a load of potential.  I expected that kind of year from Hill, but I expected more production and consistent playing time from Coples.  I do think that the alleged rips of Coples by Rex have been overblown.  The last one was an insult of one lifting session, but it's been treated as an indictment of the kid's entire offseason.  Rex barely says anything negative about the kid, but it is more than he says bad about anybody else.

[T0mShane]

I agree. I find it odd that most of the board seemed to find him a success. He strikes me more as a load of potential. I expected that kind of year from Hill, but I expected more production and consistent playing time from Coples. I do think that the alleged rips of Coples by Rex have been overblown. The last one was an insult of one lifting session, but it's been treated as an indictment of the kid's entire offseason. Rex barely says anything negative about the kid, but it is more than he says bad about anybody else.

Wanna hear my conspiracy theory?