Rex vs. Bellichick Record Comparison: 78 Games Each

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Right, it was the culture that made Mark Sanchez a useless sack of sh*t. Not to mention the drafting of Stephen Hill, Vladimir Ducasse, and stellar headline-grabber FA acquisitions like Tim Tebow. Also all the spending & trading of draft picks 4-6 years ago had nothing to do with the wasteland of blown cap space and absence of younger talent that finally hit home in 2012. Even 2011 would have been at worst an ok season with a QB who didn't hand the ball to the other team 30x (to say nothing of the lost drives due to the crappy, inaccurate throws).

A QB - or more correctly, QB play - changes everything.

What's the main difference between the 2011 Giants and the 2013 Giants?

2011 Eli throws for 5000 yards and tosses 29 TDs (to only 16 picks) and completes 61% of his passes.

2013 Eli throws for 3700 yards and tosses 17 TDs (to his 26 picks) and completes 58% of his passes (through 15 games).

2011 Giants 31st in rushing yards and averaged 3.5 ypc.

2013 Giants 32nd in rushing yards and averaged 3.5 ypc.

2011 receivers were Victor Cruz, Hakeen Nicks, Mario Manningham, and Jake Ballard.

2013 receivers were Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Reuben Randall, and Brandon Myers.

Both teams gave up 25 ppg on defense. Same HC, same OC, same DC.

The only major difference is the QB play was above average in 2011 and total horsesh*t garbage in 2013.

Or was Tom Coughlin a top-notch HC in 2011 who suddenly became a fool's fool in 2013? Perhaps he created the wrong culture in 2013.

The biggest reason for the drop in QB play was the big decline of the OLine.

The Giants passing game has always relied on big plays. The o line could not hold for long enough to get the big play.

QB play cannot be looked at in a vacuum unless you are talking about maybe two or three guys on the planet.

[Matt39]

Yeah, that's totally what I said.  Exactly that.

 

What I said, in many ways, is that the Jets aren't going anywhere without an absolute-minimum level of competence at QB.  It wouldn't hurt any if there were some good receivers as well (or one with Holmes's skill but without his head attached to the body), but a winner at QB is going to elevate the play of everyone around him.  Good - or even great - receivers with crappy QB play will still give you a crappy passing game and a losing team no matter what the culture is.

 

I fail to see the controversy.

 

It's pretty funny someone so confident in his football acumen see's zero correlation between quality of coaching and production from a young QB. Hey, you know better than I do I guess. It's all luck and Rex is just unlucky.Ozzie must have had Rex and Harbaugh draw straws.  The Raiders have just been unlucky too.

[Sperm Edwards]

It's pretty funny someone so confident in his football acumen see's zero correlation between quality of coaching and production from a young QB. Hey, you know better than I do I guess. It's all luck and Rex is just unlucky.Ozzie must have had Rex and Harbaugh draw straws.  The Raiders have just been unlucky too.

 

You keep saying luck as though it came from my own words.  I have no idea why.

[Sperm Edwards]

The biggest reason for the drop in QB play was the big decline of the OLine.

The Giants passing game has always relied on big plays. The o line could not hold for long enough to get the big play.

QB play cannot be looked at in a vacuum unless you are talking about maybe two or three guys on the planet.

 

Their OL wasn't so great in 2011 either.  Eli was among the most pressured QBs that year.  The difference is he was also the single highest-rated passer under pressure.

 

He was the most-pressured QB in the NFL in 2011 by a pretty large margin.

[Gastineau Lives]

They lost Boldin, Ellerbe, Kruger...and obviously Lewis and Reed. Pitta was out all season. They find a way. 

 

Find a way to what? Finish 8-8 with an offense every bit as crappy as ours with a much better QB?

[Matt39]

You keep saying luck as though it came from my own words.  I have no idea why.

 

The culture of an organization doesn't mean anything so what else could it be? 

[Sperm Edwards]

The culture of an organization doesn't mean anything so what else could it be? 

 

Could be the presence of above-average talent at QB and those on the receiving end of his passes, but what do I know.  Luck and culture something something.

[Matt39]

Find a way to what? Finish 8-8 with an offense every bit as crappy as ours with a much better QB?

 

They find a way to make the playoffs every season. This was by all accounts a transition season for the Ravens and they're still alive week 17. They also beat the Jets for like the 12th time in a row.

[Matt39]

Could be the presence of above-average talent at QB and those on the receiving end of his passes, but what do I know.  Luck and culture something something.

 

Teams that hire the right people find above average talent. Yet the Jets and yourself are still holding out hope that the QB will just come to us.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

Their OL wasn't so great in 2011 either. Eli was among the most pressured QBs that year. The difference is he was also the single highest-rated passer under pressure.

He was the most-pressured QB in the NFL in 2011 by a pretty large margin.

So did he forget how to play QB?

[Sperm Edwards]

Teams that hire the right people find above average talent. Yet the Jets and yourself are still holding out hope that the QB will just come to us.

 

If you say that's what I believe then it must be so.

 

Everyone knows it is insanely unlikely that a GM could trade up to #5 for a QB, not replace that QB while we made it to the championship game, then instead of admitting his mistake, sign him to an extension rather than admit he was wrong about his draft pick.  Further, it is impossible to assume he felt that this QB was just going through growing pains, and was going to be here the next 2 years no matter what, and guaranteeing him 2 more years was imperative to clear cap room.  Also the team was prohibited, for 2 years, from bringing in better FA QBs anyway per league rules about teams that made it to the final 4.  And that a team put into that position by its GM would fail to also draft more QBs in the top rounds of the draft.  

 

What a fantastic story that is completely impossible.

[Sperm Edwards]

So did he forget how to play QB?

 

What do I know? I don't think Rex Ryan is the worst HC in history so by extension I wouldn't know anything about QBs.

 

Maybe he's injured.  Maybe he's taken too many headshots.  Maybe he's trying to do too much while his brother - who isn't supposed to even be able to play anymore - is rewriting record books.

 

But he was the most pressured QB in the NFL 2011 and everything else on the team is the same or comparable.  The difference in the team is the QB play.

[Matt39]

If you say that's what I believe then it must be so.

 

Everyone knows it is insanely unlikely that a GM could trade up to #5 for a QB, not replace that QB while we made it to the championship game, then instead of admitting his mistake, sign him to an extension rather than admit he was wrong about his draft pick.  Further, it is impossible to assume he felt that this QB was just going through growing pains, and was going to be here the next 2 years no matter what, and guaranteeing him 2 more years was imperative to clear cap room.  Also the team was prohibited, for 2 years, from bringing in better FA QBs anyway per league rules about teams that made it to the final 4.  And that a team put into that position by its GM would fail to also draft more QBs in the top rounds of the draft.  

 

What a fantastic story that is completely impossible.

 

Rex was every much as responsible for this as Tannenbaum was.

 

Rex loved Sanchez. He benched him for home games last season so he wouldn't be booed. It's Rex's(or any HC's) responsibility to get production out of the QB's on the roster. Rex wanted Sanchez here. If the plan is to keep Rex away from the offense and just concentrate on the defense then he isnt a Head Coach. 

 

What exactly are the responsibilities of a head football coach?

[Matt39]

So did he forget how to play QB?

 

IMO the Gilbride offense will always have some really good years, really bad years(like this one) and some in between obviously. It's a down field passing attack- interceptions will always happen in that type of offense....Eli and the receivers have to be on the same page. It's pretty much the opposite of what the Pats do. Hence why the Giants were so ticked at Nicks...didnt want to ever put in the time it takes to perfect such a mistake prone offense. Also Eli isnt a perfect QB either obviously.

[Bugg]

If you say that's what I believe then it must be so.

 

Everyone knows it is insanely unlikely that a GM could trade up to #5 for a QB, not replace that QB while we made it to the championship game, then instead of admitting his mistake, sign him to an extension rather than admit he was wrong about his draft pick.  Further, it is impossible to assume he felt that this QB was just going through growing pains, and was going to be here the next 2 years no matter what, and guaranteeing him 2 more years was imperative to clear cap room.  Also the team was prohibited, for 2 years, from bringing in better FA QBs anyway per league rules about teams that made it to the final 4.  And that a team put into that position by its GM would fail to also draft more QBs in the top rounds of the draft.  

 

What a fantastic story that is completely impossible.

Also the entirety of the CS spare the HC is digusted with the kid gloves treatment said QB by the HC as they watch a 2010 playoff berth go down the drain due to his total incompetence, losing 2 very winnable games against the Broncos and Jints due to ridiculously awful offensive efforts, all while said HC did nothing to reign in either the QB or his nut ball OC. 

[T0mShane]

FACT: if Rex had a quarterback who produced a +94 passer rating in the playoffs, he'd have won SO MANY SUPER BOWLS.

[Gastineau Lives]

FACT: if Rex had a quarterback who produced a +94 passer rating in the playoffs, he'd have won SO MANY SUPER BOWLS.

MONSTER passing numbers AND 18 points a game.

[joewillie78]

 

MONSTER passing numbers AND 18 points a game.

 Hall of Famer

[slats]

FACT: if Rex had a quarterback who produced a +94 passer rating in the playoffs, he'd have won SO MANY SUPER BOWLS.

And this is why the Jets didn't even think about finding another starter in Rex/Sanchez's third year.

It was after that fourth year that they should've looked, and instead they came up with Drew Stanton -no, wait, never mind- Tim Tebow. Mark did show enough when it counted to stick with him when he struggled, but when his struggles became who he was, the head coach had no one to turn to. He tried, with Greg McElroy -he of the Bengals' practice squad- but that hardly represents a real option.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

What do I know? I don't think Rex Ryan is the worst HC in history so by extension I wouldn't know anything about QBs.

 

Maybe he's injured.  Maybe he's taken too many headshots.  Maybe he's trying to do too much while his brother - who isn't supposed to even be able to play anymore - is rewriting record books.

 

But he was the most pressured QB in the NFL 2011 and everything else on the team is the same or comparable.  The difference in the team is the QB play.

 

IMO you really don't understand how incredibly complex an NFL offense is, how much each part depends on one another. How very subtle differences in perceived coverages between the QB and the WR can be the difference between a pick 6 and a TD. How a millisecond can be the difference between what looks like an awful throw and a great one. How a misread in protection can destroy a play. How WR's not being able to beat press coverage completely changes the timing between a QB and WR. 

 

You focus on one and only one aspect of a very, very complex machine.

 

You put all the success or all the failure on the QB position.

 

Football is the ultimate TEAM game, you seem to think it's the ultimate QB game and the other 21 players are just along for the ride.

 

For Rodgers, Manning, to a lesser extend Brady and Brees this may be true, but for the other 28 or so starting QB's its just not the case.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

IMO the Gilbride offense will always have some really good years, really bad years(like this one) and some in between obviously. It's a down field passing attack- interceptions will always happen in that type of offense....Eli and the receivers have to be on the same page. It's pretty much the opposite of what the Pats do. Hence why the Giants were so ticked at Nicks...didnt want to ever put in the time it takes to perfect such a mistake prone offense. Also Eli isnt a perfect QB either obviously.

I think Eli is a very mediocre QB, who happened to get incredibly lucky at the best time possible.

 

He has had tremendous talent around him for most of his career, and Gilbride knew how to take advantage of the few things Eli did well.

 

Eli could never lead the Pats offense, he would look horrible doing it.

[GKnight83]

Career ASA here, untraditional these days, was Health pricing.

 

There is quite the demand for that work these days.  I trust you are very busy.  Most of my work is in the economic incentive arena.

[Sperm Edwards]

IMO you really don't understand how incredibly complex an NFL offense is, how much each part depends on one another. How very subtle differences in perceived coverages between the QB and the WR can be the difference between a pick 6 and a TD. How a millisecond can be the difference between what looks like an awful throw and a great one. How a misread in protection can destroy a play. How WR's not being able to beat press coverage completely changes the timing between a QB and WR. 

 

You focus on one and only one aspect of a very, very complex machine.

 

You put all the success or all the failure on the QB position.

 

Football is the ultimate TEAM game, you seem to think it's the ultimate QB game and the other 21 players are just along for the ride.

 

For Rodgers, Manning, to a lesser extend Brady and Brees this may be true, but for the other 28 or so starting QB's its just not the case.

 

I've seen too many QBs perform with meh receivers to say it's everyone's fault but Sanchez's, nor do I accept that every other QB who performs just has WRs who run perfect routes, unlike those on the Jets.  

 

Put a different QB here - a better QB - and the results would be better.  I fail to see the controversy in thinking that there are a dozen or two better QBs at any given time and that this is a handicap.

 

There are 21 other starting positions, but none has as great of an impact as the QB.  You can have the best player at any other position and you're still winning nothing.

[Sperm Edwards]

FACT: if Rex had a quarterback who produced a +94 passer rating in the playoffs, he'd have won SO MANY SUPER BOWLS.

 

QB rating alone - to one who didn't actually watch the game - would suggest that he had a stellar performance against Pittsburgh.  In reality, he did jack squat until Pittsburgh had the game in hand (in no small part due to all the 1st half 3 & outs where the passes sailed all over the place plus the fumble return TD on Sanchez).

[Sperm Edwards]

So the consensus on this board is that Mark Sanchez (or a rookie Geno Smith for that matter) is as good of a QB as any other, did as well as any other could have done, and substituting him with a better one would have led to no better team success.

[Smashmouth]

MONSTER passing numbers AND 18 points a game.

 

The Jets didn't ask him to have "Monster" passing numbers which is obvious by the low attempts in most of those games. He had many more good moments than bad in the playoffs and Rex's defense didn't show up in Either AFCCG.

[Smashmouth]

So the consensus on this board is that Mark Sanchez (or a rookie Geno Smith for that matter) is as good of a QB as any other, did as well as any other could have done, and substituting him with a better one would have led to no better team success.

 

Nope the numbers say Sanchez played well for the most part and Rex's so called defensive Genius got steam rolled by the Steelers and Torched by the Colts.

[Sperm Edwards]

Nope the numbers say Sanchez played well for the most part and Rex's so called defensive Genius got steam rolled by the Steelers and Torched by the Colts.

 

The numbers don't take game situations into account, and it's kind of a big deal.

 

When the game was close, or in crunch time, he sucked and the Jets resided in 3 & Out City.

 

Steamrolled by the Steelers?  The defense gave up a net of 15 points that the offense was unable to overcome.  They'd get a turnover and the offense behind Sanchez would go 3 & out.  Shall we play a game of "Let's count the 3 & Outs" for those games? 

 

Against the Colts Manning picked apart our 3rd-rate, non-Revis DBs.  I've seen him do that once or twice in his career.  Of course, some QBs can actually win football games when the defense doesn't shut down the other team.  Just not the QB you're citing.

 

You have seriously low expectations for QBs.

[Gastineau Lives]

The Jets didn't ask him to have "Monster" passing numbers which is obvious by the low attempts in most of those games. He had many more good moments than bad in the playoffs and Rex's defense didn't show up in Either AFCCG.

Has nothing to do with the context of my response to Shane

[T0mShane]

And this is why the Jets didn't even think about finding another starter in Rex/Sanchez's third year.

It was after that fourth year that they should've looked, and instead they came up with Drew Stanton -no, wait, never mind- Tim Tebow. Mark did show enough when it counted to stick with him when he struggled, but when his struggles became who he was, the head coach had no one to turn to. He tried, with Greg McElroy -he of the Bengals' practice squad- but that hardly represents a real option.

 

 

Sanchez came into camp the third year and was greeted by Derrick Mason, Plaxico Burress, and Santonio Holmes in the huddle. This was the beginning of the Sanchez end.

[T0mShane]

QB rating alone - to one who didn't actually watch the game - would suggest that he had a stellar performance against Pittsburgh.  In reality, he did jack squat until Pittsburgh had the game in hand (in no small part due to all the 1st half 3 & outs where the passes sailed all over the place plus the fumble return TD on Sanchez).

 

 

The urban legend is that Rex could have won a Super Bowl with an average quarterback. In the playoffs, he had an average quarterback. This idea that if he only had someone like Jon Kitna or Josh McCown, he'd have bagged a title is disproven by the fact that Sanchez played at the Average QB level.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

I've seen too many QBs perform with meh receivers to say it's everyone's fault but Sanchez's, nor do I accept that every other QB who performs just has WRs who run perfect routes, unlike those on the Jets.

Put a different QB here - a better QB - and the results would be better. I fail to see the controversy in thinking that there are a dozen or two better QBs at any given time and that this is a handicap.

There are 21 other starting positions, but none has as great of an impact as the QB. You can have the best player at any other position and you're still winning nothing.

In really not sure how you took that post and came up with this response.

But hey, it's your world, I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

[Sperm Edwards]

In really not sure how you took that post and came up with this response.

But hey, it's your world, I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

 

I took from your post that unless you have one of 5 special QBs that everyone else is just as faulty as the QB when the team doesn't score.  I disagree with this, though any non-fool would tell you a QB can't win purely by himself.  

 

You also referenced the other 21 players, as though the QB is just 1 of 22 who are there.  This also suggests he's no more important than 21 other positions, which I can't believe you actually think.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

I took from your post that unless you have one of 5 special QBs that everyone else is just as faulty as the QB when the team doesn't score. I disagree with this, though any non-fool would tell you a QB can't win purely by himself.

You also referenced the other 21 players, as though the QB is just 1 of 22 who are there. This also suggests he's no more important than 21 other positions, which I can't believe you actually think.

Then you read what you want to and not anything even close to what I said.

[Sperm Edwards]

The urban legend is that Rex could have won a Super Bowl with an average quarterback. In the playoffs, he had an average quarterback. This idea that if he only had someone like Jon Kitna or Josh McCown, he'd have bagged a title is disproven by the fact that Sanchez played at the Average QB level.

 

They had an above-average QB by stats, like in the Pittsburgh game.  But despite his 102 rating, he sucked and choked.  QB rating doesn't take into account his fumbles and places the same importance on crucial pass attempts as it does on non-crucial ones.  An incomplete pass that is followed by a TD pass is inconsequential.  An incomplete pass that forces a punt is not the same.  

 

The urban legend is that I think they had a very good chance to with an above-average QB, or a QB who played like he was.  

 

Swap Sanchez & Flacco, and the Ravens don't get past the Broncos last year.  If that were the case, and they lost, you would really be the one to stand up and say that "If only the Ravens had Joe Flacco they'd have won the superbowl"?  Fat freaking chance. 

 

You don't know what would have happened in Pittsburgh.  Maybe they'd have still lost. Or maybe if the offense did something in the first half the D would have played differently.  Or even if they were just as bad as they were, maybe we'd have gone into the half down 17-7 or 17-10, where it's still very much a game, instead of down 24-3 where it was basically over already.