Kraft, Judge Berman chat at Hamptons Labor Day party

[Thor99]

It does not mean you can do what the eff you want and make $hit up as you go.

As Larz pointed out, there are quite a few things Goodell and the league screwed up.

And the rest of the league should be thankful it was struck down.  If being "generally aware" was allowed to be a standard of proof of guilt to pass punishment, then literally everyone could be punished. 

How many coaches/players do you think know a player (or more) that is "generally aware" of another player that is doing PEDs?  Or illegal drugs?  Or some other criminal behavior.

I know Roger is not a lawyer, but they must have some that reviews this.  The league needs to look at their process because they are screwing it up.

The league absolutely screwed this up. 

 

 

Report: Patriots’ Spygate cheating was widespread over many years

Posted by Michael David Smith on September 8, 2015, 9:16 AM EDT

Getty Images

Just days after Tom Brady’s Deflategate suspension was overturned, new attention is being given on the earlier Patriots cheating scandal, known as Spygate.

An ESPN Outside the Lines report, citing interviews with more than 90 sources around the NFL, says that the Spygate cheating lasted “at least 40 games over a period of several seasons from 2000 to 2007,” and that the league never fully investigated all the accusations against the team.

According to the report, the taping of opponents’ signals reached the point where the Patriots had diagrams of the stolen signals that they could use during games.

The report also says that other teams were much more upset about the Patriots’ cheating than they let on, because NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell convinced the rest of the league not to press the issue. Former Rams coach Mike Martz, whose team lost to the Patriots in Belichick’s first Super Bowl, said he was pressured by a “panicked” Goodell to issue a statement saying he was satisfied by the league’s investigation of the Patriots. Martz said he agreed to go along with Goodell’s request to issue a statement backing the league not because he was completely satisfied by the investigation, but because Goodell convinced Martz that a prolonged scandal could badly damage the league.

Anyone who thought the Deflategate ruling was going to end any talk of the Patriots cheating is sorely mistaken. Both Deflategate and Spygate are stories that will have legs.

[PFSIKH]

The problem is the judge did not allow that the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts. And that the QB is not the kicker. The K ball is not used by the whole offense all game long. Not to exempt Feely, because it's still cheating and kickers definitely affect games' outcomes, but it isn't the same. Feely's K balls weren't also used to improve the play of others around him in the way that deflated footballs also improved the Pats' lack of fumbling and at times helped receivers catch passes that might have otherwise bounced off their hands.

Cheating that helps the QB and WRs and TEs and RBs and the defense (by preventing more turnovers) >>> helping the kicker alone (and even then, only really helping on FGs that weren't sure things regardless). 

And why would he?  Other than it would help the Jets?

Goodell cannot just make $hit up. 

While the situations with Feely and Farve are not apples to apples comparisons, at the very least the 50K foot view of tampering and obstructing they do match.  To go from fines to 4 game suspension for being generally aware is ludicrous.   

[Thor99]

And why would he?  Other than it would help the Jets?

Goodell cannot just make $hit up. 

While the situations with Feely and Farve are not apples to apples comparisons, at the very least the 50K foot view of tampering and obstructing they do match.  To go from fines to 4 game suspension for being generally aware is ludicrous.   

Obviously, Goodell was pissed that he covered for the Cheatsies, but they couldn't help themselves. 

 

He's an idiot for enabling those a$$holes in the first place.

 

[rillo]

Can't make this up.

[Sperm Edwards]

And why would he?  Other than it would help the Jets?

Goodell cannot just make $hit up. 

While the situations with Feely and Farve are not apples to apples comparisons, at the very least the 50K foot view of tampering and obstructing they do match.  To go from fines to 4 game suspension for being generally aware is ludicrous.   

Because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This isn't math class. Someone who commits 2 infractions is doing more harm than 2 individuals each doing 1. 

• 2 people separately holding just 1 board just have 2 boards. 2 boards leaning against each other form a freestanding shelter. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
• The effective punishment of a 5x serial rapist/killer is harsher than than 5 individuals getting caught once (a 100 year sentence is greater than 5 sentences of 20 years each, since the former is a life sentence).
• A repeat offender is worse than a first-time offender.
• A false start backs you up 10 yards. Though it's more difficult, one can still get a first down (and it happens all the time). Three false starts on three consecutive possessions can still lead to three scoring drives (or three TDs outright). Three false starts in a row in the same series means you've got 40 yards to go for a first down. From the standpoint of converting a first down, it may as well be 80 yards, because you're punting.
• Attempt a FG from 46 yards and you're still technically in FG position with a penalty. Get another penalty and now you have to punt. The 2 situations added together are worse than 2 individual occurrences at 2 different times. Even more so if you're kicking into the wind. Three penalties before a long FG (10 yards +10 yards +10 yards) isn't a 30 yard longer FG attempt. 10+10+10 yards further back may be 30 yards back on paper but in reality it might as well be 300 yards further back because no one's kicking a FG 76 yards into the wind.

He cheated AND lied right to the TV about the situation AND then destroyed evidence AND was generally uncooperative with the investigation. (Not to mention Goodell knows he was a huge beneficiary of other past cheating). Together, and particularly for such a high profile player/case, that is additively worse than the total of each single thing on its own if spread among multiple players on multiple teams.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. There's a reason the expression is, and has been, so famous. 

[PFSIKH]

Because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This isn't math class. Someone who commits 2 infractions is doing more harm than 2 individuals each doing 1. 

• 2 people separately holding just 1 board just have 2 boards. 2 boards leaning against each other form a freestanding shelter. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
• The effective punishment of a 5x serial rapist/killer is harsher than than 5 individuals getting caught once (a 100 year sentence is greater than 5 sentences of 20 years each, since the former is a life sentence).
• A repeat offender is worse than a first-time offender.
• A false start backs you up 10 yards. Though it's more difficult, one can still get a first down (and it happens all the time). Three false starts on three consecutive possessions can still lead to three scoring drives (or three TDs outright). Three false starts in a row in the same series means you've got 40 yards to go for a first down. From the standpoint of converting a first down, it may as well be 80 yards, because you're punting.
• Attempt a FG from 46 yards and you're still technically in FG position with a penalty. Get another penalty and now you have to punt. The 2 situations added together are worse than 2 individual occurrences at 2 different times. Even more so if you're kicking into the wind. Three penalties before a long FG (10 yards +10 yards +10 yards) isn't a 30 yard longer FG attempt. 10+10+10 yards further back may be 30 yards back on paper but in reality it might as well be 300 yards further back because no one's kicking a FG 76 yards into the wind.

He cheated AND lied right to the TV about the situation AND then destroyed evidence AND was generally uncooperative with the investigation. (Not to mention Goodell knows he was a huge beneficiary of other past cheating). Together, and particularly for such a high profile player/case, that is additively worse than the total of each single thing on its own if spread among multiple players on multiple teams.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. There's a reason the expression is, and has been, so famous. 

You know you lose credibility when you use three ANDs in a sentence right?

How did he cheat?  Wells could not say without a doubt he cheated.  The judge even asked where is the proof.

Where did he lie on TV?

Did he not provide all the numbers he had contacted?  Yes.  Was it in the form they wanted it?  No, but they could have done the work and billed the NFL another million for their efforts.  Seeing they had all the text communications, Well was looking for some red herring.

How was he generally uncooperative?  How many hours was he questioned?  12?  How is that being uncooperative?

I see like Goodell, you just like making sh*t up.

[#27TheDominator]

Kidding aside, I view this a lot like Brady's destruction of his phone -- legally irrelevant, but lousy optics and shows terrible judgment/tone deafness on the part of Brady (in the case of the phone) and Kraft (in the case of mingling with Berman).  

This is what I was thinking.  My first thought is that it was a chance encounter and they probably just exchanged pleasantries and moved on.  The characterization of a couple of minutes of conversation seems a bit much.  That is like an hour at those things.  Whichever of those schmucks got a "couple of minutes" with Oprah would be crowing about it forever.  I assume that it was an exaggeration and just boiled down to "Nice to meet you."  If not, they are idiots for spending that much time next to each other.

[afosomf]

You know you lose credibility when you use three ANDs in a sentence right?

How did he cheat?  Wells could not say without a doubt he cheated.  The judge even asked where is the proof.

Where did he lie on TV?

Did he not provide all the numbers he had contacted?  Yes.  Was it in the form they wanted it?  No, but they could have done the work and billed the NFL another million for their efforts.  Seeing they had all the text communications, Well was looking for some red herring.

How was he generally uncooperative?  How many hours was he questioned?  12?  How is that being uncooperative?

I see like Goodell, you just like making sh*t up.

SMH, why wasnt NFL given access to 2 equipment personnel for more than 1 time. Do you really believe Kraft hasnt given each a million to shut up. TMZ would pay top dollar to get their story mon

 

Pats fans are unreal

[Sperm Edwards]

You know you lose credibility when you use three ANDs in a sentence right?

How did he cheat?  Wells could not say without a doubt he cheated.  The judge even asked where is the proof.

Where did he lie on TV?

Did he not provide all the numbers he had contacted?  Yes.  Was it in the form they wanted it?  No, but they could have done the work and billed the NFL another million for their efforts.  Seeing they had all the text communications, Well was looking for some red herring.

How was he generally uncooperative?  How many hours was he questioned?  12?  How is that being uncooperative?

I see like Goodell, you just like making sh*t up.

lol

[#27TheDominator]

The politics involved with being a federal judge is astounding. It has little to do with the greater good or being a public servant.

It is a political appointment.  I just looked this dude up and he was at Family Court in Queens in the late 1990's.  I don't remember him much, so he probably wasn't horrible.

[Greensince69]

You know you lose credibility when you use three ANDs in a sentence right?

How did he cheat?  Wells could not say without a doubt he cheated.  The judge even asked where is the proof.

Where did he lie on TV?

Did he not provide all the numbers he had contacted?  Yes.  Was it in the form they wanted it?  No, but they could have done the work and billed the NFL another million for their efforts.  Seeing they had all the text communications, Well was looking for some red herring.

How was he generally uncooperative?  How many hours was he questioned?  12?  How is that being uncooperative?

I see like Goodell, you just like making sh*t up.

Do you even believe the stuff you post here?

1) the Judge did not ask for proof because the Judge was ruling on the process not the infraction.  By the way the more likely than not is often used in business as the standard that something is more than 50% probable.  From a PWC publication

Evolution of “more likely than not”
In June 2006, the Financial Accounting Standards Board (“FASB”) released FASB Interpretation No. 48, Accounting for Uncertainty in Income Taxes (“FIN 48” or “the Interpretation”). Under the Interpretation, enterprises are required to assess an income tax position to determine whether the benefit of the position can be recognized in US GAAP financial statements. The benefit recognition threshold requires that the position be more likely than not to be sustained based upon its technical merit under applicable tax laws. This threshold or standard is defined as a likelihood of more than 50 percent. A position meeting the MLTN standard must then be measured to determine the amount that is recorded in the financial statements. The application of FIN 48 requires an assumption that the taxing authority will be aware of all relevant information and perform an appropriate examination of the position.

You seem to be the guy who does 100, gets a ticket but gets off because the radar gun wan not calibrated.  You were still speeding.

Now lets alter the circumstance a little.  Say the text involved Brady having a hot date and we needed to get his special package ready. They mention after the last date the girl was a little cold and unresponsive and it better be right this time.  Say they said he will be appreciative if the roffie ing material melts the ice and he will sign a jersey.  So the girl gets drugged and raped the drug test proves she is drugged and Tom denies everything and she was willing.  There is no record of him buying roofies or any link to him and the drug.  Based on the texts, he could get fired, go to jail, and certainly be fined and suspended. The crime is different but the circumstances are the same.  Are you going to tell me he cant go to jail because he was not aware he could go to jail for date rape?

He lied on the interview prior to the super bowl after Bellie thew him under the bus.  He said with a straight face that he knew nothing about it when phone records indicate he was on the phone with the equipment guy for over 20 mins covering his ass.  He had the self righteous smirk on face and said he could not tell the difference in Balls.  Come on now that's like a race driver saying he does not know how hos car handles.  He and Manning helped the NFL write the rules to allow teams to doctor balls to the QB's liking before games. (PS see brady after the Ravens game shouting at the ravens staff "Know the Rules") 

You can sit for 12 hours and say nothing. That is uncooperative

Please state where Rodger made sh*t up?  Did he deflate the balls, did he take them in the bathroom before the game, Did he call the NFL office and said the pats are cheating, Did he forbid the equipment guys from talking to NFL officials again?, Maybe he destroyed Brady's cell phone.

Keep sticking your head in the sand my friend and enjoy the Cheater chants in every stadium the pats visit this year.

The sad part of all this is if Brady just said he likes his balls a little softer but never intended them to be under the legal limit and the guys were a little too enthusiastic but it will never happen again, this whole thing would have been over in 10 mins.  Mr Smug and Arrogant chose to think he is untouchable and led us to this debacle.

 

 

 

[JetsFan12]

What is this? Tmz?

[jgb]

Funny to those who said judges lived on a mountain of impartiality and didn't have politics on their mind. This judge saw this case as a way to get his name out there and in the conversation when moving on up to a circuit judgeship comes along. Someone more concerned with impropriety or the appearance of such versus personal ambition would never have gone. Not that I'm knocking it, everyone has the right to try to move up in their chosen profession.

[Jet Fan RI]

the NFL never stipulated what the break down was on the 4 games

they choked

Maybe they'll get around to it as part of the appeal. After all, both of these issues were mentioned in Goodell's appeal ruling. So Berman erred by not taking those issues into account in vacating the suspension.

[PatriotReign37]

Most judges are hacks you guys have no idea.

Not Judge Berman.

[drdetroit]

Not Judge Berman.

whatever you say dude.  Agree or disagree with his ruling you have to be pretty dumb to go sip champaign with Kraft in the Hamptons 5 minutes after issuing a ruling in a case he was a party to.

[Sperm Edwards]

Do you even believe the stuff you post here?

1) the Judge did not ask for proof because the Judge was ruling on the process not the infraction.  By the way the more likely than not is often used in business as the standard that something is more than 50% probable.  From a PWC publication

Evolution of “more likely than not”
In June 2006, the Financial Accounting Standards Board (“FASB”) released FASB Interpretation No. 48, Accounting for Uncertainty in Income Taxes (“FIN 48” or “the Interpretation”). Under the Interpretation, enterprises are required to assess an income tax position to determine whether the benefit of the position can be recognized in US GAAP financial statements. The benefit recognition threshold requires that the position be more likely than not to be sustained based upon its technical merit under applicable tax laws. This threshold or standard is defined as a likelihood of more than 50 percent. A position meeting the MLTN standard must then be measured to determine the amount that is recorded in the financial statements. The application of FIN 48 requires an assumption that the taxing authority will be aware of all relevant information and perform an appropriate examination of the position.

You seem to be the guy who does 100, gets a ticket but gets off because the radar gun wan not calibrated.  You were still speeding.

Now lets alter the circumstance a little.  Say the text involved Brady having a hot date and we needed to get his special package ready. They mention after the last date the girl was a little cold and unresponsive and it better be right this time.  Say they said he will be appreciative if the roffie ing material melts the ice and he will sign a jersey.  So the girl gets drugged and raped the drug test proves she is drugged and Tom denies everything and she was willing.  There is no record of him buying roofies or any link to him and the drug.  Based on the texts, he could get fired, go to jail, and certainly be fined and suspended. The crime is different but the circumstances are the same.  Are you going to tell me he cant go to jail because he was not aware he could go to jail for date rape?

He lied on the interview prior to the super bowl after Bellie thew him under the bus.  He said with a straight face that he knew nothing about it when phone records indicate he was on the phone with the equipment guy for over 20 mins covering his ass.  He had the self righteous smirk on face and said he could not tell the difference in Balls.  Come on now that's like a race driver saying he does not know how hos car handles.  He and Manning helped the NFL write the rules to allow teams to doctor balls to the QB's liking before games. (PS see brady after the Ravens game shouting at the ravens staff "Know the Rules") 

You can sit for 12 hours and say nothing. That is uncooperative

Please state where Rodger made sh*t up?  Did he deflate the balls, did he take them in the bathroom before the game, Did he call the NFL office and said the pats are cheating, Did he forbid the equipment guys from talking to NFL officials again?, Maybe he destroyed Brady's cell phone.

Keep sticking your head in the sand my friend and enjoy the Cheater chants in every stadium the pats visit this year.

The sad part of all this is if Brady just said he likes his balls a little softer but never intended them to be under the legal limit and the guys were a little too enthusiastic but it will never happen again, this whole thing would have been over in 10 mins.  Mr Smug and Arrogant chose to think he is untouchable and led us to this debacle.

 

 

 

GREAT post. Also thank you for answering where I just responded "lol" at the ridiculousness.

[Sperm Edwards]

The league absolutely screwed this up. 

 

 

Report: Patriots’ Spygate cheating was widespread over many years

Posted by Michael David Smith on September 8, 2015, 9:16 AM EDT

Getty Images

Just days after Tom Brady’s Deflategate suspension was overturned, new attention is being given on the earlier Patriots cheating scandal, known as Spygate.

An ESPN Outside the Lines report, citing interviews with more than 90 sources around the NFL, says that the Spygate cheating lasted “at least 40 games over a period of several seasons from 2000 to 2007,” and that the league never fully investigated all the accusations against the team.

According to the report, the taping of opponents’ signals reached the point where the Patriots had diagrams of the stolen signals that they could use during games.

The report also says that other teams were much more upset about the Patriots’ cheating than they let on, because NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell convinced the rest of the league not to press the issue. Former Rams coach Mike Martz, whose team lost to the Patriots in Belichick’s first Super Bowl, said he was pressured by a “panicked” Goodell to issue a statement saying he was satisfied by the league’s investigation of the Patriots. Martz said he agreed to go along with Goodell’s request to issue a statement backing the league not because he was completely satisfied by the investigation, but because Goodell convinced Martz that a prolonged scandal could badly damage the league.

Anyone who thought the Deflategate ruling was going to end any talk of the Patriots cheating is sorely mistaken. Both Deflategate and Spygate are stories that will have legs.

So as bad as we thought (ok, knew) it was, we didn't even know the half of it. 

How much of an unbelievable - and wholly unfair - advantage is it if one coach knows, with 100% certainty, what play an opponent is about to run any time a hand signal is used to call the play in? An advantage made all the more remarkable when one considers the radio communication problems that opponents had here & there against NE, making such hand signals an absolute necessity.

Goodell is truly a disgrace. The minimum penalty, at the time, was to suspend Belichick for a full season, and tell him the next infraction results in a lifetime ban. Or if a true investigation was done at the time, and the full extent was uncovered, he should have received a lifetime ban on the spot for the irreparable harm done to the league, and the harm the league would always have so long as Belichick was still involved in it.

So players - including many who suffered career-ending injuries - were robbed of fair games. Fans who spent all their time and money attending sham games were robbed of fair outcomes. Advertisers who spent millions backing some and not others were affected. Countless millions in lawsuits may have resulted. Sweeping it under the rug, to Goodell, made all that uncertainty go away. The problem is a single draft pick and $500K did amount to a slap on the wrist. Such a punishment made all that cheating quite worthwhile. A lesson he and his players - like Brady - learned well.

[AFCEastFan]

How much of an unbelievable - and wholly unfair - advantage is it if one coach knows, with 100% certainty, what play an opponent is about to run any time a hand signal is used to call the play in? An advantage made all the more remarkable when one considers the radio communication problems that opponents had here & there against NE, making such hand signals an absolute necessity.

Ask Peyton Manning how often he "knows" with complete certainty what defense the opposing team is in immediately prior to the snap -- I think he would say something like at least 95% of the time.

From the perspective of the defense, Richard Sherman has just said:

"So if you're studying the game the right way, you go out there understanding what plays are coming, and you know when the plays are coming." 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13618368/seattle-seahawks-richard-sherman-backs-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-cheating

Now, of course, neither of these guys are cheating (unless you consider "accidentally" drinking "adderal" cheating).  But the baseline in the NFL for non-cheating teams is extensive pre-snap knowledge of the opposing teams' plays.  Cheating certainly would help the Patriots at the margin, but it's not like they would be running around out there aimlessly like electric football players if they weren't cheating.  And, of course, stealing signals is not cheating, so they are undoubtedly still getting similar information about opponent's hand signals today -- it just takes them more time and effort to pull it off.  

[Sperm Edwards]

Ask Peyton Manning how often he "knows" with complete certainty what defense the opposing team is in, I think he would say something like at least 95% of the time.

From the perspective of the defense, Richard Sherman has just said:

"So if you're studying the game the right way, you go out there understanding what plays are coming, and you know when the plays are coming." 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13618368/seattle-seahawks-richard-sherman-backs-tom-brady-new-england-patriots-cheating

Now, of course, neither of these guys are cheating (unless you consider "accidentally" drinking "adderal" cheating).  But the baseline in the NFL for non-cheating teams is extensive pre-snap knowledge of the opposing teams' plays.  Cheating certainly would help the Patriots at the margin, but it's not like they would be running around out there aimlessly like electric football players if they weren't cheating.  And, of course, stealing signals is not cheating, so they are undoubtedly still getting similar information about opponent's hand signals today -- it just takes them more time and effort to pull it off.  

Ask Peyton Manning or Richard Sherman if they believe it's ok for the other team to absolutely know what play is called in, and not just what they think or deduce is being called in. One way, you expect 1 thing but have to cautiously wait and react in case you were wrong. In the other way, a team can go balls to the wall, all-out. It's an incredible advantage, which is why there are rules against what NE did in the first place.

The fact that others guess right so often is what makes them better, or special, players and coaches. You're also talking about 2 seasoned superstar veterans here, something Tom Brady (in particular) certainly was not in the 2001 season when he won* that first ring.

Also what they're referring to is that on a high percentage of downs, there are only so many things an intelligent coordinator would think to call in. If you see a bunch of huge fatbodies clogging the middle of an offense on 3rd & an inch, as a DC you're not really worried about keeping a pair of safeties in deep zone coverage 15+ yards back from the LOS when the ball's snapped.

It's cheating. Everyone - including Belichick, Brady, & co. - knows it's cheating. Everyone knows except some blind Patriots fans. Why do you think they did it in the first place if they knew what was coming? They did it because they did NOT know what was coming, or felt they didn't know with enough certainty or often enough.

Your reach of a reply insinuates Belichick engaged in his whole signal taping scheme (as well as whatever else he does that the league doesn't permit), for absolutely no reason. That's why they made, studied, and kept tapes so incendiary that Goodell felt the need to destroy them. For no reason whatsoever, of course. Only your team's fan, with full blinders on, would believe something so ridiculous.

[AFCEastFan]

Ask Peyton Manning or Richard Sherman if they believe it's ok for the other team to absolutely know what play is called in, and not just what they think or deduce is being called in. One way, you expect 1 thing but have to cautiously wait and react in case you were wrong. In the other way, a team can go balls to the wall, all-out. It's an incredible advantage, which is why there are rules against what NE did in the first place.

The fact that others guess right so often is what makes them better, or special, players and coaches. You're also talking about 2 seasoned superstar veterans here, something Tom Brady (in particular) certainly was not in the 2001 season when he won* that first ring.

Also what they're referring to is that on a high percentage of downs, there are only so many things an intelligent coordinator would think to call in. If you see a bunch of huge fatbodies clogging the middle of an offense on 3rd & an inch, as a DC you're not really worried about keeping a pair of safeties in deep zone coverage 15+ yards back from the LOS when the ball's snapped.

It's cheating. Everyone - including Belichick, Brady, & co. - knows it's cheating. Everyone knows except some blind Patriots fans. Why do you think they did it in the first place if they knew what was coming? They did it because they did NOT know what was coming, or felt they didn't know with enough certainty or often enough.

Your reach of a reply insinuates Belichick engaged in his whole signal taping scheme (as well as whatever else he does that the league doesn't permit), for absolutely no reason. That's why they made, studied, and kept tapes so incendiary that Goodell felt the need to destroy them. For no reason whatsoever, of course. Only your team's fan, with full blinders on, would believe something so ridiculous.

Fair response, but the NFL is not Tecmo Bowl.  If the Patriots are playing Peyton Manning, for example, and the Pats' defense loads up to stop a particular play that they have stolen from the sideline, Manning will just audible out of the play.  They wouldn't blindly run the play into the teeth of the defense just because that's what the initial call was.  So, I think you are mistaken that the Patriots would have "absolute" precognition on all the plays.  

Also my "reach of reply" insinuated pretty clearly (or so I thought) that the reason for the taping scheme in my ignorant, biased, homeristic, eyes is that it is a pain in the arse for them to steal signals simply with binoculars, still cameras, and pen and paper.  The video-taping scheme allowed them to gather that information significantly more efficiently and accurately.  Now they are back to doing it the old school way.  But they are still doing it, no doubt about it.  

[Sperm Edwards]

Fair response, but the NFL is not Tecmo Bowl.  If the Patriots are playing Peyton Manning, for example, and the Pats' defense loads up to stop a particular play that they have stolen from the sideline, Manning will just audible out of the play.  They wouldn't blindly run the play into the teeth of the defense just because that's what the initial call was.  So, I think you are mistaken that the Patriots would have "absolute" precognition on all the plays.  

Also my "reach of reply" insinuated pretty clearly (or so I thought) that the reason for the taping scheme in my ignorant, biased, homeristic, eyes is that it is a pain in the arse for them to steal signals simply with binoculars, still cameras, and pen and paper.  The video-taping scheme allowed them to gather that information significantly more efficiently and accurately.  Now they are back to doing it the old school way.  But they are still doing it, no doubt about it.  

Huh?

That example was in reference to a play/scenario where stealing signals is NOT a factor. Further, if the QB audibles out of the called play, then what's signaled in is moot. But there are plenty of plays where the QB does not audible out of what was hand-signaled in. 

They were cheating because it gave them a distinct advantage over other teams that weren't doing it because they followed the rules. THAT. IS. WHY. HE. DID. IT.   

Further, the point of the article I replied to is that there was plenty more that Belichick was doing that was not investigated purely because Goodell didn't want to find anything more. That it would damage the league too much. It's why he didn't investigate other allegations. It's why he burned the tapes.

And where is it written as certainty that only stolen signals were on those tapes, or even that every tape Belichick had in his possession was turned over in the first place? Who would believe something so far fetched as Belichick not turning over the most incriminating evidence? Just like Brady.

[AFCEastFan]

Huh?

That example was in reference to a play/scenario where stealing signals is NOT a factor. Further, if the QB audibles out of the called play, then what's signaled in is moot. But there are plenty of plays where the QB does not audible out of what was hand-signaled in. 

They were cheating because it gave them a distinct advantage over other teams that weren't doing it because they followed the rules. THAT. IS. WHY. HE. DID. IT.   

Further, the point of the article I replied to is that there was plenty more that Belichick was doing that was not investigated purely because Goodell didn't want to find anything more. That it would damage the league too much. It's why he didn't investigate other allegations. It's why he burned the tapes.

And where is it written as certainty that only stolen signals were on those tapes, or even that every tape Belichick had in his possession was turned over in the first place? Who would believe something so far fetched as Belichick not turning over the most incriminating evidence? Just like Brady.

Yes, and on the plays where the hand signals are not mooted and the Patriots have "cracked the code", then the Patriots will know the play with 100% certainty. But that comes from stealing signals, which is legal.  We are talking about the means of stealing the signals.  The Patriots' video camera system was a much more efficient and accurate way to steal signals than the old-school way they are no doubt continuing to use to steal signals today.  THAT. IS. WHY. THEY. DID. IT.  It is cheating and it gave them an advantage, sure.   But I can promise you that they are getting the exact same information today (legally) from the opposing sidelines, just with a lot more effort. 

Also, you touch on my biggest pet peeve in the whole Spygate discussion:  I don't think it is logically consistent at all to say both that Belichick concealed other evidence of cheating and that there was something incriminating on the destroyed tapes besides the scoreboard-sideline-play-cheerleader loops that Glaser and others have reported.  I think that BB absolutely concealed other evidence about Spygate and other cheating.  Given that, and given what we know about his character and respect for league officials, there is simply no way in hell that he would voluntarily turn over anything to the league that was outside the narrowest possible interpretation of what Goodell requested him to produce (and as I recall, Goodell had a very narrow and specific request to begin with).   

 

[Sperm Edwards]

It is cheating and it gave them an advantage, sure.   

 

 

This is really where it should end. 

Also, you touch on my biggest pet peeve in the whole Spygate discussion:  I don't think it is logically consistent at all to say both that Belichick concealed other evidence of cheating and that there was something incriminating on the destroyed tapes besides the scoreboard-sideline-play-cheerleader loops that Glaser and others have reported.  I think that BB absolutely concealed other evidence about Spygate and other cheating.  Given that, and given what we know about his character and respect for league officials, there is simply no way in hell that he would voluntarily turn over anything to the league that was outside the narrowest possible interpretation of what Goodell requested him to produce (and as I recall, Goodell had a very narrow and specific request to begin with).   

You don't think so - or you're saying you don't think so - because you don't want to. Because you are starting with the presumption of innocence that he has not earned. One gets that presumption when one has a clean slate. There is nothing inconsistent about it at all. Belichick gave him a little bit to chew on so he wouldn't get accused of holding back (in the manner Brady did by flat-out wiping his phone). 

There is no logical deduction that because he handed over some incriminating material that Goodell asked for, that it means he handed over all of the incriminating material Goodell asked for. 

 

But I revert back to your earlier quote above, and where you write, "I think that BB absolutely concealed other evidence about Spygate and other cheating" which quite effectively admits Belichick was - and surely still is - a cheater. A cheater does not get any benefit of the doubt as to whether or not his cheating was only limited to those things he got caught doing, or that his accomplishments while cheating are legitimate ones.

The Patriots have zero legitimate Super Bowl rings. If not for the (quite legitimate) fear of lawsuits and massive revenue loss to the league in general, those "winning" seasons would have been wiped from the record books.

[PFSIKH]

SMH, why wasnt NFL given access to 2 equipment personnel for more than 1 time. Do you really believe Kraft hasnt given each a million to shut up. TMZ would pay top dollar to get their story mon

Pats fans are unreal

That has been as surprising as anything.  Complete silence.

[AFCEastFan]

 

This is really where it should end. 

You don't think so - or you're saying you don't think so - because you don't want to. Because you are starting with the presumption of innocence that he has not earned. One gets that presumption when one has a clean slate. There is nothing inconsistent about it at all. Belichick gave him a little bit to chew on so he wouldn't get accused of holding back (in the manner Brady did by flat-out wiping his phone). 

There is no logical deduction that because he handed over some incriminating material that Goodell asked for, that it means he handed over all of the incriminating material Goodell asked for. 

 

But I revert back to your earlier quote above, and where you write, "I think that BB absolutely concealed other evidence about Spygate and other cheating" which quite effectively admits Belichick was - and surely still is - a cheater. A cheater does not get any benefit of the doubt as to whether or not his cheating was only limited to those things he got caught doing, or that his accomplishments while cheating are legitimate ones.

The Patriots have zero legitimate Super Bowl rings. If not for the (quite legitimate) fear of lawsuits and massive revenue loss to the league in general, those "winning" seasons would have been wiped from the record books.

How am I starting with a presumption of innocence and giving BB the benefit of the doubt?  I am saying the opposite.  You even quoted me to that effect.  But the effect of saying the opposite, IMO, is that there is no way in hell that there was anything incriminating on the Spygate tapes apart from the narrow sideline-field-scoreboard-cheerleader shots that we already know about.  If there were, Belichick would not have voluntarily produced them.  

I'm guessing that the "gave him a little bit to chew on" theory is an attempt to help explain Goodell's inexplicable decision to destroy the tapes.  But I don't buy it at all --  it would be a total departure from how Belichick normally behaves.  No way would Belichick voluntarily turn over anything more than the bare minimum of what Goodell requested, under the narrowest interpretation possible.   

[Sperm Edwards]

How am I starting with a presumption of innocence and giving BB the benefit of the doubt?  I am saying the opposite.  You even quoted me to that effect.  But the effect of saying the opposite, IMO, is that there is no way in hell that there was anything incriminating on the Spygate tapes apart from the narrow sideline-field-scoreboard-cheerleader shots that we already know about.  If there were, Belichick would not have voluntarily produced them.  

I'm guessing that the "gave him a little bit to chew on" theory is an attempt to help explain Goodell's inexplicable decision to destroy the tapes.  But I don't buy it at all --  it would be a total departure from how Belichick normally behaves.  No way would Belichick voluntarily turn over anything more than the bare minimum of what Goodell requested, under the narrowest interpretation possible.   

You're saying both in that post. Re-read your own post for yourself.

That said, how about he just doesn't cheat and then there's nothing to turn over in the first place? He's a disgrace. 

You're talking about something totally different, along the lines of if the glove don't fit you must acquit. I'm saying something different. He's a cheater; an even bigger cheater than we ever knew before. His players also cheat on their own, because monkey see monkey do. It has nothing to do with being a Jets fan because our teams wouldn't necessarily have been the beneficiary of a level playing field anyway over so much of the past 15 years.

In short, you're looking for a loophole as to why he didn't hand over all evidence of wrongdoing, and how I shouldn't have expected him to do so. I am not of that mindset. I am saying he's a disgrace because he did so much wrongdoing in the first place. And if Brady is any better the degree to which he's better is splitting hairs. Bad is bad. Cheaters are cheaters. Their championships are shams.