Brady's suspension

[JetPotato]

Unfair practices.  That is an interesting point. 

The Panthers and Vikings were caught heating balls, which as we all heard, saw or read over the last 11 months can affect balls due to the Ideal Gas Law.  Let off with a warning. 

The Chargers were rubbing balls with stick-um in 2012.  Did not hand over the towels.  Were fined for, as the NFL put it, what you did is not illegal, but you cannot do it anymore".  The Chargers were fined. 

Bib Papa Pimp Favre sent dick pics to a Jets fluff girl(?).  He did not hand over his phone.  He was fined.

Goodell spent millions of dollars in an investigation and all he had was, "more probable than not".  He punished the Patriots with loss of draft picks.  He suspended Brady four games .  In Roger's book, not the CBA or anything the NFLPA signed, being "generally aware" or even destroying a phone is the same as failing a PED test. 

I think the Saints will agree that the punishment do not fit the crime to the Patriots team and its player. 

Missed by you in all of this is that all above punishments were accepted. 

Brady too would have walked away with a fine and we all would have been spared months of nonsense if he had just been a man and fessed up and apologized. Instead, he lied. Repeatedly. And stomped his feet like an indignant child. And one tiny corner of the nation bought it, true to their habit of believing in fairy tales. The honest, honorable route would have not only been uncharacteristic of that organization, but it would have been devastating to a widely delusional fan base.

[AzogtheDefiler]

Sounds a lot like you have anger issues... full of personal attacks and venom... talk to someone who cares what you have to say and while you are at it kiss Bill's rings. 

Red Sox didn't kiss Torre's rings but they respected them. I respect all champions as it take a lot to be a winner in professional sports. I do not denounce them because of trivial stuff. You do care as you keep responding to the posts.

[AzogtheDefiler]

Not ALL champions EARN their titles within the scope of the rules, therefore not ALL get their due. Saying "give all champions their due" as a blanket statement is the wrong approach. Not seeing where NYJ782 has posted any "hate and blame" here, but I can see where you have.

I think thats the issue here.

I disagree. If you are a champion you have earned it in team sports. Maybe not Lance Armstrong but team wise. Come on. 

[Jet Nut]

You mean like every athlete ever exercising their right to fight their suspension?

Two players that based women fought their suspensions, but their salt of the Earth.  Brady fights his after Goodell makes things up. 

Made what up?  He's still guilty of cheating, that didn't go away because of an idiot ruling that he couldn't be suspended for 4 games for that violation.

Go back to stroking yourself that Tammy did nothing wrong 

[PFSIKH]

1) They were let off with warnings after the first time they were caught, and weren't caught again. The Pats were also let off with a warning in the regular season the first time they were caught, but the Pats did it again in the playoffs after the warning.

2) Again, the chargers were doing something which gave them an unfair advantage but wasn't breaking a rule (because there was no rule for it; similar to brady), and they were initially let off with a warning, and weren't caught doing it again. Yet, they were fined even on the initial offense. The Pats weren't fined on the initial offense.

3) Has nothing to do with competition on the field

4) As I stated earlier, Goodell is a buffoon and that was proven long ago. He went after Brady in this case and Brady got off on a technicality, and he confiscated the videos during spygate...but whether it was Brady, the ball boys, Belicheck, Ernie Adams, the cameraman, whatever- the Pats were caught cheating more than multiple times including all of the warnings they have received over the past 15 years. Yet, all they have to show for it is the loss of two draft picks.  

5) Forget the Saints. Everyone outside of MA agrees. The punishments absolutely do not fit the crimes for the Pats. They are nowhere close to fitting the crimes.

1) First, it is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  Adding practice balls into the game is not the same as inflating or heating a ball.  One is seeking a 'competitive advantage' being clever, the other is tampering,  Granted, it circumvents a process, assuming the process was in place back then, but I digress.  Tampering is a fineable offense.

2) This scenario is more in line with what happened.  The Chargers tampered with the balls and used a banned substance.     This is one of the points Berman made againbst Goodell's punishment.  You have a precedent and it actually is stated in the rulebook what the punishment for tampering is.

3) And what exactly does Brady's personal phone have to do with competition on the field?  This is assuming you are talking about Brett, you were vague here.  Wells had the texts from the team phones between Brady and the guy and the texts between the two guys.  Brett did not provide his phone and was fined for not cooperating.  Like with Brett, the NFL could not prove anything, but fined him for not cooperating.  That kind of sets a precedent.  As the NFLPA pointed out, it does not say do not cooperate = suspend.

4) So you are in favor of punishing for past behavior?  Then why isn't teams harshly punished when players fail PED tests?  Seattle had like 10 in 3-4 years.  It is like here is your facility access card, your uniform & playbook and a subscription to Adderall.  The Patriots were caught twice.  8 years apart.  One, was clearly at the direction of Belichcik.  The other was more probable than not at the direction of Brady.   The only commonality is the Patriots.  If they happened with in 2-3 years, yes punish them for lack of organizational control.    

Missed by you in all of this is that all above punishments were accepted. 

Brady too would have walked away with a fine and we all would have been spared months of nonsense if he had just been a man and fessed up and apologized. Instead, he lied. Repeatedly. And stomped his feet like an indignant child. And one tiny corner of the nation bought it, true to their habit of believing in fairy tales. The honest, honorable route would have not only been uncharacteristic of that organization, but it would have been devastating to a widely delusional fan base.

And the rest of the nation bought hook, line and sinker what ejaculate Goodell, Blandino, Griggson, Wells, the NFL and ESPN was spewing.

As I have said ad nauseam, Brady is complicit in the incident.  I have not changed from this.

With that being said how could he do the right thing when the league and Goodell were conducting a smear campaign against the Patriots and Brady during and within hours of the game.  They leaked information to multiple reporters.  Even when the information was proven to be wrong, they did little to publish statements that their previous published content was wrong.  When was Mort's stuff taken down?  6 months after it was proven to be wrong. 

I agree, it could have been handled the way you stated, but the NFL did not seem intent on resolving this matter that way.  If it did, it would not have leaked the information and it would have handled it behind closed doors.  It would not have dropped millions on generating a clearly biased report.  It would not have given Kraft the middle finger after he did fall on the sword for the team in the hopes of ending this mess.  None of the subsequent negotiations did Goodell want to bargain, even when Brady reportedly agreed to a reduced suspension.  Goodell wanted a pound of flesh.  Even when given some in Kraft's acceptance of the fines, he wanted more.  That it blew up in Goodell's face is funny as hell to me.

 

 

[PFSIKH]

Made what up?  He's still guilty of cheating, that didn't go away because of an idiot ruling that he couldn't be suspended for 4 games for that violation.

Go back to stroking yourself that Tammy did nothing wrong 

Go read Berman's reply.

You can not make up punishments or interpret $hit anyway you want when it is collectively bargained for. 

[Jet Nut]

Go read Berman's reply.

You can not make up punishments or interpret $hit anyway you want when it is collectively bargained for. 

He's guilty.  He was let off on the punishment.  Hes still a cheater and will have to defend his punishment again after the season ends.

Looking forward to:

1.  He didn't do it

2. Everyone does it

3. Made no difference in that game

4.  Everyone is jealous of the Pats

5.  Wait until next year, Tammys pissed now!

[nyjets782]

Red Sox didn't kiss Torre's rings but they respected them. I respect all champions as it take a lot to be a winner in professional sports. I do not denounce them because of trivial stuff. You do care as you keep responding to the posts.

When a team cheats, I denounce it.  And nothing makes me happier than needling the Pats fans in here about how their success is tainted.  I find it wonderfully amusing how Jet fans pointing out tainted success gets your goat so badly. Good luck angrily demanding that all of Jet Nation to "give NE their due" and labeling them "pathetic" if they don't.  You have a lot of work ahead of you.   If you think posting on a message board signs me up for caring what a poster who is full of venom and anger thinks about me, you have really misunderstood the purpose of a blog.

[AzogtheDefiler]

When a team cheats, I denounce it.  And nothing makes me happier than needling the Pats fans in here about how their success is tainted.  I find it wonderfully amusing how Jet fans pointing out tainted success gets your goat so badly. Good luck angrily demanding that all of Jet Nation to "give NE their due" and labeling them "pathetic" if they don't.  You have a lot of work ahead of you.   If you think posting on a message board signs me up for caring what a poster who is full of venom and anger thinks about me, you have really misunderstood the purpose of a blog.

I am saying we should act like future champions and respect the current and past ones. That is all. When we win I want us to say we beat a great team not a team of cheats as is popular. All I am saying. Move on.

[The Crusher]

I am saying we should act like future champions and respect the current and past ones. That is all. When we win I want us to say we beat a great team not a team of cheats as is popular. All I am saying. Move on.

Are you still trying to sell the fact you are a Jets fan?  Really?  Impressive.

[nyjets782]

I am saying we should act like future champions and respect the current and past ones. That is all. When we win I want us to say we beat a great team not a team of cheats as is popular. All I am saying. Move on.

I am not sure what constitutes acting like a future champion, but I would be happy to move on and I suggest you do the same.  Right back up the Mass Pike.

[Beerfish]

I am saying we should act like future champions and respect the current and past ones. That is all. When we win I want us to say we beat a great team not a team of cheats as is popular. All I am saying. Move on.

They are a great team.

They are a team full of cheats.

Both, and the thing that in my mind makes them look so utterly idiotic is some of their cheats were not necessary for them to succeed.  The New York Jets fans are not the only ones that view the Pats in this way, go and talk to 29 or 30 other fan bases and you will get the same opinion.  They are a great team with a great coach and a great Qb and they are cheats.

The Pats have done all of this to themselves and they have to wear it.

[AzogtheDefiler]

They are a great team.

They are a team full of cheats.

Both, and the thing that in my mind makes them look so utterly idiotic is some of their cheats were not necessary for them to succeed.  The New York Jets fans are not the only ones that view the Pats in this way, go and talk to 29 or 30 other fan bases and you will get the same opinion.  They are a great team with a great coach and a great Qb and they are cheats.

The Pats have done all of this to themselves and they have to wear it.

I agree but I heard the same thing from Sox fans regarding the Yankees and it annoyed me to death. I feel as though I am reliving it. 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Are you still trying to sell the fact you are a Jets fan?  Really?  Impressive.

I have converted to a Chiefs fan.

[greenwichjetfan]

1) First, it is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  Adding practice balls into the game is not the same as inflating or heating a ball.  One is seeking a 'competitive advantage' being clever, the other is tampering,  Granted, it circumvents a process, assuming the process was in place back then, but I digress.  Tampering is a fineable offense.

2) This scenario is more in line with what happened.  The Chargers tampered with the balls and used a banned substance.     This is one of the points Berman made againbst Goodell's punishment.  You have a precedent and it actually is stated in the rulebook what the punishment for tampering is.

3) And what exactly does Brady's personal phone have to do with competition on the field?  This is assuming you are talking about Brett, you were vague here.  Wells had the texts from the team phones between Brady and the guy and the texts between the two guys.  Brett did not provide his phone and was fined for not cooperating.  Like with Brett, the NFL could not prove anything, but fined him for not cooperating.  That kind of sets a precedent.  As the NFLPA pointed out, it does not say do not cooperate = suspend.

4) So you are in favor of punishing for past behavior?  Then why isn't teams harshly punished when players fail PED tests?  Seattle had like 10 in 3-4 years.  It is like here is your facility access card, your uniform & playbook and a subscription to Adderall.  The Patriots were caught twice.  8 years apart.  One, was clearly at the direction of Belichcik.  The other was more probable than not at the direction of Brady.   The only commonality is the Patriots.  If they happened with in 2-3 years, yes punish them for lack of organizational control.    

And the rest of the nation bought hook, line and sinker what ejaculate Goodell, Blandino, Griggson, Wells, the NFL and ESPN was spewing.

As I have said ad nauseam, Brady is complicit in the incident.  I have not changed from this.

With that being said how could he do the right thing when the league and Goodell were conducting a smear campaign against the Patriots and Brady during and within hours of the game.  They leaked information to multiple reporters.  Even when the information was proven to be wrong, they did little to publish statements that their previous published content was wrong.  When was Mort's stuff taken down?  6 months after it was proven to be wrong. 

I agree, it could have been handled the way you stated, but the NFL did not seem intent on resolving this matter that way.  If it did, it would not have leaked the information and it would have handled it behind closed doors.  It would not have dropped millions on generating a clearly biased report.  It would not have given Kraft the middle finger after he did fall on the sword for the team in the hopes of ending this mess.  None of the subsequent negotiations did Goodell want to bargain, even when Brady reportedly agreed to a reduced suspension.  Goodell wanted a pound of flesh.  Even when given some in Kraft's acceptance of the fines, he wanted more.  That it blew up in Goodell's face is funny as hell to me.

 

 

1) I don't see where you're going with this, but regardless - you brought this point up to illustrate that other teams were also caught gaining a competitive advantage, but were let off with a warning whereas the pats lost a draft pick and tried to suspend a player. I'm simply stating that the Pats were also let off with a warning the first time. There's no "woe is me" victim role to play here. All three teams in context were treated the same way on the first offense. The second time is when the pats were punished. 

2) Same as the above. Chargers were caught gaining an unfair advantage, and were let off without any on-the-field damages. They were not caught again. Once again, the pats were treated the same way. They were warned on their first attempt and let off without any on the field damages. The second time is when they were punished. 

3) Again, this has nothing to do with my posts in this thread, so I'm not going to go into it. 

4) Yes, I am clearly in favor of punishment for cheating - just as anyone if favor of fair competition should be- especially with the billions of dollars thrown around the country on everything NFL. I don't understand why you're throwing Seattle at me as if I've ever defended them or said anything to the contrary. I've already posted twice in this thread that Goodell is incompetent. That incompetence is not limited to simply his colossal ****ups regarding the pats scandals. It reverberates around the NFL in every form from Josh Gordon being out of the NFL for doing something legal in many states, to Seattle's PED stuff, to all of the domestic abuse sh*t from last year, to trying to expand the NFL to the rest of the world, to player safety, to etc. 

Your justification for the pats not being punished for "lack of organizational control" (or as non pats-fans would call it: systemic overstepping of the rules) is a complete cop-out. First, they weren't caught cheating just twice (see #1,#2), it was more like multiple times even after they were let off with warnings on the initial infraction. Second and maybe more importantly, simply waiting to cheat again, or simply not being caught in the act for a prolonged period of time does not acquit someone from a tendency. None of the pats' essential personnel changed in those 8 years, yet they shouldn't be subjected to punishment because it didn't fit the most arbitrary of timelines imaginable? C'mon. 

tl;dr - All of my posts in this thread come down to what I said in my initial post: it is unfair that the Pats were caught gaining an unfair advantage over and over again, and their only punishment was the loss of two draft picks. 

==========================================

Also, jumping on your convo with the potato, the whole "smear campaign" thing that pats fans get to cry victim about is utter garbage. 

What reason would the NFL/Goodell/ESPN have to "persecute" Belichick or Brady - the two guys who NFLN/ESPN have repeatedly for years been calling the greatest Coach/QB ever? What purpose does it serve them? If it really is just as simple as a slander job- wanting to bring them down after spending the past 14 years putting them up on a pedestal that is untouchable by any other NFL franchise, then why?

League offices and sports media LOVE making players and teams greater than the sport. Its what makes them marketable. In fact, they go to bat for their stars when things like this come up - not pursue their downfall for any ill-contrived reason. Look at tiger, look at big papi, look at arod....all mired in controversy, yet all of their leagues are doing everything they can to rehab their images because it's best for their sport. The media molds their entire coverage over making these guys bigger than the game, and trying to rehabilitate fallen images. People love jordan, love gretsky, love phil jackson...all the all time greats- even with all of their skeletons coming out of the closet. It's simply easier to be marketable to the greats because people love to love their sports stars more than people love to hate them. The only ones who have gone down the road of no turning back are guys who were caught cheating over and over again or something actually serious like murder such as Lance Armstrong or that no-legged Pistorius guy.

Brady is the golden boy of the NFL, and Belichick is the next Lombardi. There is no reason on earth that the NFL - the entity with the most to gain by keeping them lovable, would go out of their way and risk all of the egg currently on their face, simply to "smear" them. Probably closer to reality, they were forced to step in after the repeated warnings and full blown scandals to save their multi-billion dollar business and keep it from turning into an off-shoot of the WWE.

tl;dr - Only in pats-fan land can something like this be turned into a "woe is me"/the whole world is out to get us conspiracy. 

[nyjets782]

They are a great team.

They are a team full of cheats.

Both, and the thing that in my mind makes them look so utterly idiotic is some of their cheats were not necessary for them to succeed.  The New York Jets fans are not the only ones that view the Pats in this way, go and talk to 29 or 30 other fan bases and you will get the same opinion.  They are a great team with a great coach and a great Qb and they are cheats.

The Pats have done all of this to themselves and they have to wear it.

You could not have said it any better.  And anyone trying to compare this to MLB just doesn't get it.  There were steroid users on every MLB team.  For every Pettitte and Giambi there was a Manny and an Ortiz.  Organizational conspiratory systematic cheating is separate and distinct from individual players doping.

[Jet Nut]

I am saying we should act like future champions and respect the current and past ones. That is all. When we win I want us to say we beat a great team not a team of cheats as is popular. All I am saying. Move on.

Yeah, if I rooted for a team that has been accused of cheating within the timeframe of every one of their titles, creating doubt as to each title, I would say the same thing.  No one, including me would believe it but I would keep saying it.

I also would ignore it, not be like one particular fan who has brought every team in the NFL into the mix by now.  Its now the Chargers who needed to be sanctioned too.

[The Crusher]

I have converted to a Chiefs fan.

Good thing you didnt pick the Bengals.  Be a week late.

[AFCEastFan]

 

What reason would the NFL/Goodell/ESPN have to "persecute" Belichick or Brady - the two guys who NFLN/ESPN have repeatedly for years been calling the greatest Coach/QB ever? What purpose does it serve them? If it really is just as simple as a slander job- wanting to bring them down after spending the past 14 years putting them up on a pedestal that is untouchable by any other NFL franchise, then why?

Maybe I am mis-remembering (or mis-interpreting), but I thought that the endless array of post-Deflate Gate articles and investigative pieces provided the answer to this question:  A large number of the NFL's 32 owners are highly competitive, petty, egotistical and hold grudges.  For that group, Deflategate presented an opportunity to settle a variety of old scores with Kraft -- everything from perceived inadequate Spygate penalties, to 15 years of on-the-field losses, to the failure of Kraft to back them on other issues (it was widely reported, for example, that Jerry Jones felt that Kraft left him flapping in the breeze on the Cowboys salary cap penalties, so this was an opportunity to give Kraft a taste of his own medicine).  Goodell just did what the "other 31" wanted in this regard and ESPN will kowtow to however the wind is blowing from league offices.  

[The Crusher]

You could not have said it any better.  And anyone trying to compare this to MLB just doesn't get it.  There were steroid users on every MLB team.  For every Pettitte and Giambi there was a Manny and an Ortiz.  Organizational conspiratory systematic cheating is separate and distinct from individual players doping.

Um,,, hmmmm.  What is the Patriot way?

[Jet Nut]

Maybe I am mis-remembering (or mis-interpreting), but I thought that the endless array of post-Deflate Gate articles and investigative pieces provided the answer to this question:  A large number of the NFL's 32 owners are highly competitive, petty, egotistical and hold grudges.  For that group, Deflategate presented an opportunity to settle a variety of old scores with Kraft -- everything from perceived inadequate Spygate penalties, to 15 years of on-the-field losses, to the failure of Kraft to back them on other issues (it was widely reported, for example, that Jerry Jones felt that Kraft left him flapping in the breeze on the Cowboys salary cap penalties, so this was an opportunity to give Kraft a taste of his own medicine).  Goodell just did what the "other 31" wanted in this regard and ESPN will kowtow to however the wind is blowing from league offices.  

None of this makes the NFL owners having drawn a line in the sand, petty.  

[JetPotato]

1) First, it is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.  Adding practice balls into the game is not the same as inflating or heating a ball.  One is seeking a 'competitive advantage' being clever, the other is tampering,  Granted, it circumvents a process, assuming the process was in place back then, but I digress.  Tampering is a fineable offense.

2) This scenario is more in line with what happened.  The Chargers tampered with the balls and used a banned substance.     This is one of the points Berman made againbst Goodell's punishment.  You have a precedent and it actually is stated in the rulebook what the punishment for tampering is.

3) And what exactly does Brady's personal phone have to do with competition on the field?  This is assuming you are talking about Brett, you were vague here.  Wells had the texts from the team phones between Brady and the guy and the texts between the two guys.  Brett did not provide his phone and was fined for not cooperating.  Like with Brett, the NFL could not prove anything, but fined him for not cooperating.  That kind of sets a precedent.  As the NFLPA pointed out, it does not say do not cooperate = suspend.

4) So you are in favor of punishing for past behavior?  Then why isn't teams harshly punished when players fail PED tests?  Seattle had like 10 in 3-4 years.  It is like here is your facility access card, your uniform & playbook and a subscription to Adderall.  The Patriots were caught twice.  8 years apart.  One, was clearly at the direction of Belichcik.  The other was more probable than not at the direction of Brady.   The only commonality is the Patriots.  If they happened with in 2-3 years, yes punish them for lack of organizational control.    

And the rest of the nation bought hook, line and sinker what ejaculate Goodell, Blandino, Griggson, Wells, the NFL and ESPN was spewing.

As I have said ad nauseam, Brady is complicit in the incident.  I have not changed from this.

With that being said how could he do the right thing when the league and Goodell were conducting a smear campaign against the Patriots and Brady during and within hours of the game.  They leaked information to multiple reporters.  Even when the information was proven to be wrong, they did little to publish statements that their previous published content was wrong.  When was Mort's stuff taken down?  6 months after it was proven to be wrong. 

I agree, it could have been handled the way you stated, but the NFL did not seem intent on resolving this matter that way.  If it did, it would not have leaked the information and it would have handled it behind closed doors.  It would not have dropped millions on generating a clearly biased report.  It would not have given Kraft the middle finger after he did fall on the sword for the team in the hopes of ending this mess.  None of the subsequent negotiations did Goodell want to bargain, even when Brady reportedly agreed to a reduced suspension.  Goodell wanted a pound of flesh.  Even when given some in Kraft's acceptance of the fines, he wanted more.  That it blew up in Goodell's face is funny as hell to me.

 

 

If you have to ask "how can one do the right thing?", then I don't know what to say to you. Good luck, I guess. 

[bassmaster2]

the best thing to do is beat the Pats next week and in the playoffs

 

 

[PatriotReign37]

There were steroid users on every MLB team.  For every Pettitte and Giambi there was a Manny and an Ortiz. 

Everybody is doing it so its OK for the Yankees.

 

[BUM-KNEE]

I disagree. If you are a champion you have earned it in team sports. Maybe not Lance Armstrong but team wise. Come on. 

Well we will simply disagree on the topic then, no biggie.

[PatriotReign37]

They are a great team.

They are a team full of cheats.

Both, and the thing that in my mind makes them look so utterly idiotic is some of their cheats were not necessary for them to succeed.  The New York Jets fans are not the only ones that view the Pats in this way, go and talk to 29 or 30 other fan bases and you will get the same opinion.  They are a great team with a great coach and a great Qb and they are cheats.

 The Pats have done all of this to themselves and they have to wear it.

The Pats keep winning and the other 31 teams keep whining.

 

[Jet Nut]

Everybody is doing it so its OK for the Yankees.

 

Everyone did do it.  Its why its so hard to rate players.  Teams no, it was too widespread.  The point is that idiotic, braindead Sox fans accused the Yankees of cheating.  And idiotic Patriot fans are now saying it.  

As if organizational cheating is anything like a handful of players taking PEDs.  

[Jet Nut]

The Pats keep winning and the other 31 teams keep whining.

 

And NE bitches come running to the teams rescue on Jet boards. 

 

[AFCEastFan]

Everyone did do it.  Its why its so hard to rate players.  Teams no, it was too widespread.  The point is that idiotic, braindead Sox fans accused the Yankees of cheating.  And idiotic Patriot fans are now saying it.  

As if organizational cheating is anything like a handful of players taking PEDs.  

Yes, because we all know that MLB organizations had no knowledge whatsoever that their players were juicing and were in no way complicit.   

[PatriotReign37]

Everyone did do it.  Its why its so hard to rate players.  Teams no, it was too widespread.  The point is that idiotic, braindead Sox fans accused the Yankees of cheating.  And idiotic Patriot fans are now saying it.  

As if organizational cheating is anything like a handful of players taking PEDs.  

Steinbrenner was suspended from MLB for associating with mob gamblers.

Its OK everyone was doing it. Right dumbazz?

 

[PatriotReign37]

Yes, because we all know that MLB organizations had no knowledge whatsoever that their players were juicing and were in no way complicit.   

Yankee trainers shot Roger Clemens up right in the clubhouse.

Go Yanks.

[Jet Nut]

Yes, because we all know that MLB organizations had no knowledge whatsoever that their players were juicing and were in no way complicit.   

Which has what to do with trying to compare two or so PED users with the idea that this is the same as organizational cheating like the Pats were found guilty of?  It's stupid on every level.  Unless you're making the case that Torre handed out syringes? As stupid as idiotic Sox fans crying about ARod right up to their denials over Big Poppy.  

[Jet Nut]

Steinbrenner was suspended from MLB for associating with mob gamblers.

Its OK everyone was doing it. Right dumbazz?

 

No he wasn't dumbass.  He was suspended for hiring a slug to dig up dirt to smear Winfield dumbass.  He wasn't Leo D.  I'm a Mets fan who knows this.  You're a clueless Boston fan who makes shlt up to back idiotic cheating claims and defenses for convicted cheaters

[PatriotReign37]

No he wasn't dumbass?  He was suspended for hiring a slug to dig up dirt and trap awesome nailed dumbass.  I'm a Mets fan who knows this.  You're a clueless Boston fan who makes shlt up to back idiotic cheating claims and defenses for convicted cheaters

Numb Nut

[Jet Nut]

Numb Nut

Is there an sport you actually are up on.  You are 100% wrong on George and call me a dumbass?  Or numb?  Lol