neckdemon Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 A 3-4 DL with Richardson-Wilkerson-Williams is a better and greater DL, without question. Spending 6+ million, as much as 8+ million, to sure up the run defense on the first two downs is even more ridiculous than paying Wilkerson what he has earned with half a decade of elite play before even turning 26. because the jets run defense is as great as it is you have forgotten what its like to have a defense that cant stop the run. wilkerson will fail as a full time 3-4 nose tackle. it's an incredible advantage when you know that your run defense is going to keep teams in obvious passing situations. 2nd and 9 or 3rd and 8 is an amazing advantage over 2nd and 4 or 3rd and 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 because the jets run defense is as great as it is you have forgotten what its like to have a defense that cant stop the run. wilkerson will fail as a full time 3-4 nose tackle. it's an incredible advantage when you know that your run defense is going to keep teams in obvious passing situations. 2nd and 9 or 3rd and 8 is an amazing advantage over 2nd and 4 or 3rd and 2 Wilkerson wouldn't play NT full time, but he probably wouldn't fail either. Every single one of the Jets' DL depth chart plays the run well, it's not a priority or something this franchise has to pay top dollar for. The next NT, like the one before him, will benefit greatly from being surrounded by Wilkerson and friends on those first two downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neckdemon Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Wilkerson wouldn't play NT full time, but he probably wouldn't fail either. Every single one of the Jets' DL depth chart plays the run well, it's not a priority or something this franchise has to pay top dollar for. The next NT, like the one before him, will benefit greatly from being surrounded by Wilkerson and friends on those first two downs. wilkerson would fail playing 2-gap nose tackle. hes just not built for it anyway, while its been fun debating this with you....we will see just who the FO values more at their price tag in a month or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 wilkerson would fail playing 2-gap nose tackle. hes just not built for it anyway, while its been fun debating this with you....we will see just who the FO values more at their price tag in a month or so Wilkerson has succeeded in bits as a NT, and - again - wouldn't be a full time NT. Some lucky nut will get to play in between he and friends for a couple downs. Agreed, we will see! I look forward to 5 more years of Wilk! Though hopefully the league is exposed and shut down first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saul Goodman Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 After a 10-6 campaign, both Maccagnan and Bowles have publicly said they would like to retain as many as their own players as possible. Kirwan believes that is imperative as the duo attempts to create a foundation. “First thing you have to do and I learned the hard way when I was at the Jets, is you better keep all your talent and grow from there,” Kirwan said. “You can’t lose players and then just constantly use the draft to replace guys who were good because you’re not making any progress.” Nice quote here from Kirwan last week. Trading Wilkerson for a draft pick (without first making serious attempts to to re-sign him) would be lunacy. We should definitely try to keep Harrison as well, but his skills and abilities are completely overrated on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 Nice quote here from Kirwan last week. Trading Wilkerson for a draft pick (without first making serious attempts to to re-sign him) would be lunacy. We should definitely try to keep Harrison as well, but his skills and abilities are completely overrated on this board. your first part, i agree, would be lunacy. but there have been negotiations. i remember mac saying that the negotiations were going on and that the 2 parties were too far apart. as far as your 2nd part, there might be a few that agree with you, but i dont think there are many. statlines say he is one of or is the best nose tackle in football. but i dont need to read the statlines to agree with them. the man dominates the middle of that line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 your first part, i agree, would be lunacy. but there have been negotiations. i remember mac saying that the negotiations were going on and that the 2 parties were too far apart. as far as your 2nd part, there might be a few that agree with you, but i dont think there are many. statlines say he is one of or is the best nose tackle in football. but i dont need to read the statlines to agree with them. the man dominates the middle of that line The many are wrong, and will be forced to catch up. They can build their 1950's SB winning run defense on whatever the football version of Outside of the Park is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The many are wrong, and will be forced to catch up. They can build their 1950's SB winning run defense on whatever the football version of OOTP is. as much as i like the back and forth with you, your getting kinda crazy here. gotta tell ya, the 2 teams playing in this years super bowl sure run the ball alot. you claim wilkerson is not only the best player on the team, but one of the best the jets ever had? geeze. there are 2 players this year alone on the d-line that are better than wilks, let alone the team, and gasp, the history of the jets. all of richardsons off field issues aside, is a better player than wilks.period. harrison is a better nose tackle than wilkerson is a defensive end.period. you dont see what my eyes see when snacks, play after play, is completely blowing up the center/guard combo? i get that you dont value the nose position very much and you think the jets would do compariably with a lesser talent,or the money would be best spent elsewhere but give the man his due. he is a man among boys in the trenches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogglez Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Remember when we were gonna struggle to replace Sione Pouha? Same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 as much as i like the back and forth with you, your getting kinda crazy here. gotta tell ya, the 2 teams playing in this years super bowl sure run the ball alot. you claim wilkerson is not only the best player on the team, but one of the best the jets ever had? geeze. there are 2 players this year alone on the d-line that are better than wilks, let alone the team, and gasp, the history of the jets. all of richardsons off field issues aside, is a better player than wilks.period. harrison is a better nose tackle than wilkerson is a defensive end.period. you dont see what my eyes see when snacks, play after play, is completely blowing up the center/guard combo? i get that you dont value the nose position very much and you think the jets would do compariably with a lesser talent, but give the man his due. he is a man among boys in the trenches - Cool, they also have QBs who pass a lot and defenses geared towards stopping the pass. They're the first and second best pass defenses in the NFL this year. Last year, the Pats won with the best pass defense in football, the year before that it was the Seahawks. - There were zero Jets DLmen better than Wilk last year or the year before or the year before that or the year before that. - Harrison is not a better than Wilk is a DE, period. One is a top NT, one is one of the top 2 3-4 DLmen of the decade. - The Jets have never paid top dollar for a NT, and have gotten massive production out of previous unknowns and low picks like Pouha and Harrison for almost a decade now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Remember when we were gonna struggle to replace Sione Pouha? Same. Right? And before Pouha, when they'd struggle to replace Jenkins? Haven't skipped a beat in the run defense. The only time they've not been a top run defense since 2011 was when Wilkerson missed 3 games in 2014. They plummeted down the rankings despite having Harrison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 - Cool, they also have QBs who pass a lot and defenses geared towards stopping the pass. They're the first and second best pass defenses in the NFL this year. - There were zero Jets DLmen better than Wilk last year or the year before or the year before that or the year before that. - Harrison is not a better than Wilk is a DE, period. One is a top NT, one is one of the top 2 3-4 DLmen of the decade. - The Jets have never paid top dollar for a NT, and have gotten massive production out of previous unknowns and low picks like Pouha and Harrison for almost a decade now. wilkerson. twice in a decade talent.lol you claim that the jets received "half a decade of elite defensive end play" when they drafted wilkerson. i wont even bring up his injury history, but you do realize that in 3 of his 5 years he averaged a little better than 4 sacks a year? do you really understand what elite means? or top 2 3-4 limeman of the decade? maybe if you said he started off decent, got better every year, and now is elite. i think that would be a better way to say it lets continue this conversation when mo wilks makes simon the best nose tackle in football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Remember when we were gonna struggle to replace Sione Pouha? Same. nope.never happened. not on this site.kendrick ellis was in the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 wilkerson. twice in a decade talent.lol you claim that the jets received "half a decade of elite defensive end play" when they drafted wilkerson. i wont even bring up his injury history, but you do realize that in 3 of his 5 years he averaged a little better than 4 sacks a year? do you really understand what elite means? or top 2 3-4 limeman of the decade? maybe if you said he started off decent, got better every year, and now is elite. i think that would be a better way to say it lets continue this conversation when mo wilks makes simon the best nose tackle in football - Harrison wouldn't even be that lolZ - You shouldn't bring up his injury history, it would be yet another bad argument and point. Wilkerson has started 91 of 96 possible regular season games as a Jet. Harrison, in the meantime, didn't make a single start as a rookie and saw action in 5 games. - Are any facts going to show up in all this? Do YOU understand what elite is or what a top lineman of the decade is? - If I said he started off decent then I'd be wrong and making it up. He started off excellent and has been elite for years now. While your opinion is that it would be better to narrate his career in a lesser way, it wouldn't be an honest representation of how good he's been. - So does that last sentence mean you now believe Wilkerson will remain a Jet? Good! That's what should be happening. Don't be surprised when the run defense doesn't skip a beat either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 my point was that you can look at the franchise tag number as a rough estimate as to what hes going to want per year. if the average of the top 5 players at his position is 16 million and he thinks he's just about as good as watt.....you can sort of guess how much money hes going to expect maybe, maybe not. players willing to take less per year for security. most likely scenario is that he is tagged to give jets more time to figure out what to do. one year deals are never backbreakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Jets fan Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Twice in a decade player should get us three 1st round picks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Twice in a decade player should get us three 1st round picks!! You understand this doesn't even make sense if you're intending to mock me, right? You're the only person who has mentioned multiple first round picks on the site. It'd be alright if this was a well done parody, but this post is a mediocre parody of yourself. I guess there's something to be said for making fun of yourself for being unable to come up with something better, but I don't think you were trying to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 meh Right? And before Pouha, when they'd struggle to replace Jenkins? Haven't skipped a beat in the run defense. The only time they've not been a top run defense since 2011 was when Wilkerson missed 3 games in 2014. They plummeted down the rankings despite having Harrison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 You understand this doesn't even make sense if you're intending to mock me, right? You're the only person who has mentioned multiple first round picks on the site. It'd be alright if this was a well done parody, but this post is a mediocre parody of yourself. I guess there's something to be said for making fun of yourself for being unable to come up with something better.... not poking fun but sign me up. i would trade 2 1st rounders for a once in a decade player at any position besides kicker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 not poking fun but sign me up. i would trade 2 1st rounders for a once in a decade player at any position besides kicker I thought he was a twice in a decade player? Boy do you guys fall apart quickly...can't even keep the nonsense narrative straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 - Harrison wouldn't even be that lolZ - You shouldn't bring up his injury history, it would be yet another bad argument and point. Wilkerson has started 91 of 96 possible regular season games as a Jet. Harrison, in the meantime, didn't make a single start as a rookie and saw action in 5 games. - Are any facts going to show up in all this? Do YOU understand what elite is or what a top lineman of the decade is? - If I said he started off decent then I'd be wrong and making it up. He started off excellent and has been elite for years now. While your opinion is that it would be better to narrate his career in a lesser way, it wouldn't be an honest representation of how good he's been. - So does that last sentence mean you now believe Wilkerson will remain a Jet? Good! That's what should be happening. Don't be surprised when the run defense doesn't skip a beat either. 1. dont know what this means 2. missed 5 games. couldnt finish another 4 or 5 games due to injury. just a small tidbit to disprove your "wilkerison is superman" theory 3. 2011- 3.0 sacks 2012- 5.0 sacks 2014-5.5 sacks call me stupid and i might not know the meaning of "elite", but these numbers dont seem to fit the bill of a twice in a decade player 4. all wilkerson was his rookie year was decent. rookie learning the game and playing decent. if all 5 years of wilkersons play were like his rookie year, i dont think we would be arguing over the word elite. bust maybe, but not elite 5. i think you are going to be very dissapointed after the offseason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I thought he was a twice in a decade player? Boy do you guys fall apart quickly...can't even keep the nonsense narrative straight. the deal is still on. once in a decade. twice in a decade(your words) sign me up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Jets fan Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 You understand this doesn't even make sense if you're intending to mock me, right? You're the only person who has mentioned multiple first round picks on the site. It'd be alright if this was a well done parody, but this post is a mediocre parody of yourself. I guess there's something to be said for making fun of yourself for being unable to come up with something better, but I don't think you were trying to do that. if he is as good as you say teams will be lining up to have a bidding war. Dude, he is not close to the player you make him out to be, that's the point. Look, 11 mil a year for five years with 30 mil guaranteed and we keep him. Amy more then that get the 1st and 3rd and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1. dont know what this means 2. missed 5 games. couldnt finish another 4 or 5 games due to injury. just a small tidbit to disprove your "wilkerison is superman" theory 3. 2011- 3.0 sacks 2012- 5.0 sacks 2014-5.5 sacks call me stupid and i might not know the meaning of "elite", but these numbers dont seem to fit the bill of a once in a decade player 4. all wilkerson was his rookie year was decent. rookie learning the game and playing decent. if all 5 years of wilkersons play were like his rookie year, i dont think we would be arguing over the word elite. bust maybe, but not elite 5. i think you are going to be very dissapointed after the offseason 1 - Not surprising 2 - Whoa! Missed 5 out of 96 games!?!?! The guy's a walking injury! PLUS another 4-5 - which isn't a fact, you could 100% have just made that number up! That's some hard science. 3 - Cool story, luckily it's the 21st century and there's alot more to work with than sacks. When you leave whatever football decade you're in and catch up, you might understand how minor a point you're making here. 4 - I don't know if you yourself are stupid, but your arguments sure as sh*t are. 5 - I don't particularly care for your opinion on what his career or rookie year is or was like. The reviews by people who make a living evaluating football players says very different. Football Outsiders, PFF....Both infinitely better sources than your opinion. If all 5 years of Wilkerson's play were like his rookie year, we wouldn't be having this inane conversation now - instead he went from awesome rookie to elite DL in no time. 6 - I think I won't be. Soooo...G'luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 the deal is still on. once in a decade. twice in a decade(your words) sign me up You sure about that? Seems with your inability to keep your narrative straight you could change your mind at any moment. I'm on the edge of my seat to find out. if he is as good as you say teams will be lining up to have a bidding war. Dude, he is not close to the player you make him out to be, that's the point. Look, 11 mil a year for five years with 30 mil guaranteed and we keep him. Amy more then that get the 1st and 3rd and move on. Dude, that's like your opinion, maaan, and it's wrong one. Sorry to break it to you, but your opinion isn't all that relevant when there's years of information and evaluations from higher sources that don't agree with you. You'll get over it, life will move on, and the Jets will make the right move to keep Wilkerson (probably for more than you mention, they'd be lucky to get that price). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 You sure about that? Seems with your inability to keep your narrative straight you could change your mind at any moment. I'm on the edge of my seat to find out. Dude, that's like your opinion, maaan, and it's wrong one. Sorry to break it to you, but your opinion isn't all that relevant when there's years of information and evaluations from higher sources that don't agree with you. You'll get over it, life will move on, and the Jets will make the right move to keep Wilkerson (probably for more than you mention, they'd be lucky to get that price). dude, have we had a few too many cocktails tonight? my narrative? change my mind at any moment? geeze wilkerson is a fine player. really good player. dare i say great player. but there are only 2 people who thinks he is a twice in a generation player. you and wilkersons mom. i was going to say 3 people, but hell, wilkerson himself doesnt even believe that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1 - Not surprising 2 - Whoa! Missed 5 out of 96 games!?!?! The guy's a walking injury! PLUS another 4-5 - which isn't a fact, you could 100% have just made that number up! That's some hard science. 3 - Cool story, luckily it's the 21st century and there's alot more to work with than sacks. When you leave whatever football decade you're in and catch up, you might understand how minor a point you're making here. 4 - I don't know if you yourself are stupid, but your arguments sure as sh*t are. 5 - I don't particularly care for your opinion on what his career or rookie year is or was like. The reviews by people who make a living evaluating football players says very different. Football Outsiders, PFF....Both infinitely better sources than your opinion. If all 5 years of Wilkerson's play were like his rookie year, we wouldn't be having this inane conversation now - instead he went from awesome rookie to elite DL in no time. 6 - I think I won't be. Soooo...G'luck with that. i dont know where to begin with this nonsense. most of it is not pertinent to our discussions. but to 1 point. i do remember everyone that is anything saying that wilkersons rookie year was "elite" and thats why he won rookie of the year. his 3 sacks that year were just a farce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 i dont know where to begin with this nonsense. most of it is not pertinent to our discussions. but to 1 point. i do remember everyone that is anything saying that wilkersons rookie year was "elite" and thats why he won rookie of the year. his 3 sacks that year were just a farce That's been apparent all day. Do you what you've been doing and just say stuff! Is the italicized part even a coherent sentence? Can I call for a translator here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 dude, have we had a few too many cocktails tonight? my narrative? change my mind at any moment? geeze wilkerson is a fine player. really good player. dare i say great player. but there are only 2 people who thinks he is a twice in a generation player. you and wilkersons mom. i was going to say 3 people, but hell, wilkerson himself doesnt even believe that Wilkerson is an elite, great player. There are several people who think Wilkerson is one of the handful best DL at any position in the game and the second best 3-4 DE in the game. You happen to not be one of them, though you couldn't actually say why beyond it's how you feel...cause that's supposed to be a thing. I know you'd like to imagine this is a really good case you just made. Unfortunately, like most of what you're saying, it's just really flatly stated stuff you made up with no basis in truth or fact or reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 That's been apparent all day. Do you what you've been doing and just say stuff! Is the italicized part even a coherent sentence? Can I call for a translator here? ahh. the grammar police tactic. when all else fails, right? i knew you had an ace up your sleeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 ahh. the grammar police tactic. when all else fails, right? Yeah, calling for a translator to translate an incoherent thought isn't policing your grammar. Your grammar does suck (mine does too, though much better than yours), no doubt, but I have more of a problem with the content - or lack thereof - in your posts. There's only two people on the planet who think you're making a decent argument - your mom and yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Jets fan Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Yeah, calling for a translator to translate an incoherent thought isn't policing your grammar. Your grammar does suck (mine does too, though much better than yours), no doubt, but I have more of a problem with the content - or lack thereof - in your posts. There's only two people on the planet who think you're making a decent argument - your mom and yourself. so please tell us what you think a fair contract is for Mo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Wilkerson is an elite, great player. There are several people who think Wilkerson is one of the handful best DL at any position in the game and the second best 3-4 DE in the game. You happen to not be one of them, though you couldn't actually say why beyond it's how you feel...cause that's supposed to be a thing. I know you'd like to imagine this is a really good case you just made. Unfortunately, like most of what you're saying, it's just really flatly stated stuff you made up with no basis in truth or fact or reality. this is why this argument is not winnable for you. you are 2 burried. first you say wilkerson is the best 3-4 defensive end (not named watt) to ever play in the past decade. then you declare wilkerson to be one of the greatest jets of all time. on top of all that, you state wilkerson was playing at an "elite" level his rookie season. you back all that up as some kinda fact with what i bolded above and i am the one who types flatly stated stuff with no basis in truth or fact or reality. you and you alone are the only one who believes what you are typing. not one other person. with that said, i believe the burden of proof falls on you. and thats right. you dont have the proof. all you have is opinion. kinda hard to produce anything of substance when you are the only person in this entire universe who believes what you believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ylekram Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Yeah, calling for a translator to translate an incoherent thought isn't policing your grammar. Your grammar does suck (mine does too, though much better than yours), no doubt, but I have more of a problem with the content - or lack thereof - in your posts. There's only two people on the planet who think you're making a decent argument - your mom and yourself. boy, that was witty. and borrowed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 so please tell us what you think a fair contract is for Mo? Closer to Watt/McCoy money than Heyward/Jordan money. The latter would be a gift. this is why this argument is not winnable for you. you are 2 burried. first you say wilkerson is the best 3-4 defensive end (not named watt) to ever play in the past decade. then you declare wilkerson to be one of the greatest jets of all time. on top of all that, you state wilkerson was playing at an "elite" level his rookie season. you back all that up as some kinda fact with what i bolded above and i am the one who types flatly stated stuff with no basis in truth or fact or reality. you and you alone are the only one who believes what you are typing. not one other person. with that said, i believe the burden of proof falls on you. and thats right. you dont have the proof. all you have is opinion. kinda hard to produce anything of substance when you are the only person in this entire universe who believes what you believe 2 buried....That about sums up the level of competence in your argument. - Wilkerson is both those things that I've said. - You are, indeed, the one who types flatly stated stuff with no basis in truth or fact or reality. Here are some of the many links praising Wilkerson among the game's elite: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-all-22-all-star-team-muhammad-wilkerson-and-the-new-versatility/ http://grantland.com/features/bill-barnwell-pick-nfl-all-pro-team/ PFF and/or the Associate Press has him as a second team All Pro from 2012-2015 (ages 22-25): http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilkMu00.htm He ranked as PFF's 24th best player in the NFL entering 2014: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2015/05/which_jets_made_pro_football_focus_top_100_for_201.html Sooooo....What do you have? Sack numbers? Wilkerson posted something like 45 pressures and 15+ QB hits in 2015 to go along with his sacks. Maybe you can regale us with your opinion again? boy, that was witty. and borrowed Only two people on the planet consider this a good post - your mom and yourself, and your mom is being polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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