Good Teams Don't Allow Stud young Players to Reach FA (Harrison/ Wilkerson)

[smaxor5]

I'm with you that these guys need to get signed.  I also happen to trust this organization and think they have done enough to get the benefit of the doubt. 

[Shockwave]

Rams play a 4-3 I know, but Aaron Donald is special and a better interior player than Mo.

As the thread starter and a huge supporter or signing both Snacks and Mo - I have to agree here. Donald can take over games. 

Mo is homegrown talent and a stud. But he should be talked about in the same conversation as Watt/Donald or Defensive MVP's. His numbers and play simply don't support it. 

Mo is in the secondary Tier of Cameron Jordon, and Cameron Heywood. Both guys got around 10-11m per year. Mo is not a 15m dollar a year person and he knows it. 

[SenorGato]

As the thread starter and a huge supporter or signing both Snacks and Mo - I have to agree here. Donald can take over games. 

Mo is homegrown talent and a stud. But he should be talked about in the same conversation as Watt/Donald or Defensive MVP's. His numbers and play simply don't support it. 

Mo is in the secondary Tier of Cameron Jordon, and Cameron Heywood. Both guys got around 10-11m per year. Mo is not a 15m dollar a year person and he knows it. 

Cliches don't make or break who is better between the two. Wilkerson also can take over games, and his play does support his long earned standing as an elite NFL DL. Wilkerson is clearly, and long has been, better than the Cameron Jordans and Cameron Heywards of the NFL. Nobody is talking about Wilkerson as a $15 million dollar player. You know who else is not a $15 million player a year person? JJ Watt until 2018.

 

 

[CanadaSteve]

 

Although I agree with you to a point it makes it 10x worse when your team can't develop talent- and when it does they can't retain them.

 

Jets trade Darrelle Revis to Bucs

Apr 22, 2013

• Adam Schefter
• Rich Cimini

The New York Jets have traded star cornerback Darrelle Revis to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the 13th overall pick in Thursday night's draft and a conditional selection next year.

 

'Skins Acquire Receiver Laveranues Coles 

Redskins Acquire Receiver Laveranues Coles After Jets Decline to Match Offer

• Story
• Comments

Posted: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 12:00 am

By JOSEPH WHITE | 0 comments

AP Sports Writer

The New York Jets say the Washington Redskins overpaid for Laveranues Coles. The Redskins say they were just doing good business.

 

The Jets reluctantly let their top receiver go Wednesday, declining to match the Redskins' seven-year, $35 million offer _ including a $13 million bonus _ for a restricted free agent coming off a breakout season.

"It is extremely rare for a team to pay more than a player asks," Jets general manager Terry Bradway said. "In this case, it did happen. We did not expect that to happen."

 

 

 

 

These are all dumb quotes.  We traded Revis and GOT Richardson.  Revis was over-priced then just like now.  Laveraneous Coles was not even CLOSE to being worth that contract, and the Jets did the right thing in letting him walk.  Abraham only played when he wanted to, and we got a possible HOF center for him. 

[SenorGato]

These are all dumb quotes.  We traded Revis and GOT Richardson.  Revis was over-priced then just like now.  Laveraneous Coles was not even CLOSE to being worth that contract, and the Jets did the right thing in letting him walk.  Abraham only played when he wanted to, and we got a possible HOF center for him. 

Revis is most definitely worth his contract, then and now. Coles went right into Washington and gave them 80/1200/6 right off the bat before injury. Abraham put up 76 sacks after leaving the Jets, averaging 10 a season, while the Jets have never replaced him. Mangold has been the center for one of the least productive offenses over the past ten years. It took the Jets multiple years to recover from losing McKenzie at RT and Thomas at RG, two more prime aged performers they let go.

[jgb]

i want to keep both but sometimes if the sides are far apart only the market can resolve the situation

[neckdemon]

i want to keep both but sometimes if the sides are far apart only the market can resolve the situation

tthe franchise tag number says all you need to know. I think it's 16 million. We can't pay that for a DE

[CanadaSteve]

Revis is most definitely worth his contract, then and now. Coles went right into Washington and gave them 80/1200/6 right off the bat before injury. Abraham put up 76 sacks after leaving the Jets, averaging 10 a season, while the Jets have never replaced him. Mangold has been the center for one of the least productive offenses over the past ten years. It took the Jets multiple years to recover from losing McKenzie at RT and Thomas at RG, two more prime aged performers they let go.

Revis is not worth the money they are paying him.....its not even close.  Paying a CB what you pay a QB is never good, for any franchise. 

Coles gave them one solid year and was not worth the money or the headaches.

Abraham put up 76 sacks after leaving the Jets.  However, when we needed him, he could never play.  Not much help when your best player gets a tummy ache and can't play in the big game.  As for questioning Mangold, you lost me......

[CrazyCarl40]

Cliches don't make or break who is better between the two. Wilkerson also can take over games, and his play does support his long earned standing as an elite NFL DL. Wilkerson is clearly, and long has been, better than the Cameron Jordans and Cameron Heywards of the NFL. Nobody is talking about Wilkerson as a $15 million dollar player. You know who else is not a $15 million player a year person? JJ Watt until 2018.

What game this, or any other season for that matter, did the Jets win solely because Wilkerson had a great game? When did he take the defense on his back, get after the QB and make a game changing strip sack or something like it? How often does he disappear at big moments in big games?

You'll find more of the latter than the former. 

[jgb]

tthe franchise tag number says all you need to know. I think it's 16 million. We can't pay that for a DE

One year deal never killed anyone

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Beerfish]

With due respect....If your goal is to lose your young players - Yes we have handled it perfectly. 

Theres been articles, post, and media outlets screaming to resign Mo for years. So this isn't some new concept. Letting your studs get this close to FA is a terrible idea. 

Of his Draft class there has been a ton of extensions handed out already.( Nate Solder, Robert Quinn, Julio Jones, Patrick Peterson, Cameron Heyward , Tyron Smith, Cam Newton and AJ Green). 

 

Your young players has been very good so far in his career but he has never put a full year of production together, he and his reps want a monster contract yet he has not done it for a full year.,  What do you do?  Most of the guys you just quoted DID have monster years early,  Mo wilk did not, go back and look at his game logs, in two diferent years he got most of his sacks in the 1st half of the season, and was quiet in the end half.

[Raideraholic]

Mack plays LB and was drafted as one.

No Khalil Mack can play either De( not in 3-4 defense)  or outside Lb.   ( played both positions) The first player to be voted all pro at two positions in the same season.  ( DE , and Lb)

[Raideraholic]

One year deal never killed anyone

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you had the cap space of last year- that one year deal wouldn't hurt you.    That isn't the case this year, as the Jets have limited cap space, and 16 million dollars would cost drastic cuts in other areas.   Effect the Jets ability to try and fix the weak spots in free agency.

[SenorGato]

 

 

Revis is not worth the money they are paying him.....its not even close.  Paying a CB what you pay a QB is never good, for any franchise. 

Coles gave them one solid year and was not worth the money or the headaches.

Abraham put up 76 sacks after leaving the Jets.  However, when we needed him, he could never play.  Not much help when your best player gets a tummy ache and can't play in the big game.  As for questioning Mangold, you lost me......

- Revis is worth the money they are paying him, if not more. It is, indeed, not even close. Imaginary QBs don't play into determining whether he's worth it or not. 

- 80/1200/6 was more than a solid at the time, and what headaches? Coles the cancer? The real issue is that Coles had close to a billion concussions by his mid-20s. Otherwise Washington was getting a great player. 

- Abraham couldn't play for the Jets after they traded him, yes. From 2007-2013 he missed like 4 games...

Anyway, I guess my point is that nothing here explains why they shouldn't extend Wilkerson. Losing every single one of those players hurt the Jets, one they still haven't recovered from (Abraham), and they shouldn't make that mistake again. Losing their best young talent routinely and without a fight is why this franchise is the sh*thole, bottom tiered franchise it's been for almost 50 years. 

 

 

 

[jgb]

If you had the cap space of last year- that one year deal wouldn't hurt you.    That isn't the case this year, as the Jets have limited cap space, and 16 million dollars would cost drastic cuts in other areas.   Effect the Jets ability to try and fix the weak spots in free agency.

one year deals never killed a team. what kills a team is money in outyears where you end up paying a guy money for not being on the team anymore. one year deal cannot create cap hell, by definition.

franchise him, then decide whether to do a deal. worst case you get him close enough to market value for a year.

[bostonmajet]

It takes a while to get there. First you have to have a stable of young players. Secondly, you have to be able to get most of your players through the draft (so as to not fill up cap with FA); finally, you need to extend the player when there is a reasonable amount of leverage (not the year they are a FA after a monster year).

When all that fails, a good GM knows when to walk away and get the most out of the situation. NE for all of their drafter woos rarely overpay for a vet; when a Vet wants too much or are getting long in the tooth the trade them or walk away.

Give Macc a few years to develop this kind of flexibility. At this point, we may be too far down the path to hold onto Mo, but Sheldon and Leonard may be savable.

[SenorGato]

No Khalil Mack can play either De( not in 3-4 defense)  or outside Lb.   ( played both positions) The first player to be voted all pro at two positions in the same season.  ( DE , and Lb)

Yes, like every pass rushing LB ever, Mack also takes snaps as a 4-3 DE. Sounds like he might be good at it. He's not a 3-4 DL, which is what this discussion was about. Also, someone already pointed this out. 

What game this, or any other season for that matter, did the Jets win solely because Wilkerson had a great game? When did he take the defense on his back, get after the QB and make a game changing strip sack or something like it? How often does he disappear at big moments in big games?

You'll find more of the latter than the former. 

Every game they won, Wilkerson had a great game and took over. Ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous answers. If you'd like a more serious answer, please walk me through every game Aaron Donald or whoever we're arguing about here took over and won solely by himself without anyone doing anything else - since that's a real thing now, totally (it's not).

I CAN tell you this with full confidence - there's no shot the Jets' two down run stuffer took over a game and won it by himself. 

[CanadaSteve]

 

- Revis is worth the money they are paying him, if not more. It is, indeed, not even close. Imaginary QBs don't play into determining whether he's worth it or not. 

- 80/1200/6 was more than a solid at the time, and what headaches? Coles the cancer? 

- Abraham couldn't play for the Jets after they traded him, yes. From 2007-2013 he missed like 4 games...

Anyway, I guess my point is that nothing here explains why they shouldn't extend Wilkerson. Losing every single one of those players hurt the Jets, one they still haven't recovered from (Abraham), and they shouldn't make that mistake again. Losing their best young talent routinely and without a fight is why this franchise is the sh*thole, bottom tiered franchise it's been for almost 50 years. 

 

 

 

Wow.....we see two completely different players in Revis.  Imaginary QB?  He is being played like a QB.  NO CB is worth it. 

Coles had ONE good season with Washington, and was back with us two years after it.  He left the Jets because of money.  At the time, Washington was throwing ridiculous contracts around, and Coles was just not worth what he was asking. 

You clearly missed John Abraham's missing important playoff games.

There is no player in any sport that is not replaceable.  The trade of Wayne Gretzky proved that.  I think the drafting of Leornard Williams has shown what they plan on doing with Mo.  If you can draft his replacement at a fraction of a cost for the next 5 years, trade the player for a pick and that pick goes on to be a starter for the next 5 years at another position at a fraction of the cost of a top-tier free agent signing, you take it and run. 

[SenorGato]

Wow.....we see two completely different players in Revis.  Imaginary QB?  He is being played like a QB.  NO CB is worth it. 

Coles had ONE good season with Washington, and was back with us two years after it.  He left the Jets because of money.  At the time, Washington was throwing ridiculous contracts around, and Coles was just not worth what he was asking. 

You clearly missed John Abraham's missing important playoff games.

There is no player in any sport that is not replaceable.  The trade of Wayne Gretzky proved that.  I think the drafting of Leornard Williams has shown what they plan on doing with Mo.  If you can draft his replacement at a fraction of a cost for the next 5 years, trade the player for a pick and that pick goes on to be a starter for the next 5 years at another position at a fraction of the cost of a top-tier free agent signing, you take it and run. 

- Revis, once again, is worth it. Imaginary QBs don't play into him being worth it or not.

- Coles was worth the money and immediately showed that in Washington. He got hurt, the Jets traded for him, and he went on another highly productive run here as a well paid WR. 

- The Jets are still trying to replace Abraham. Meanwhile, their future HOF C has been on one good offense in 10-11 seasons. Abraham is a HOF pass rusher, one the Jets have never been able to replace. The Jets had a HOF C before Mangold....his backup became a Pro Bowler and won two rings while the Jets floundered.

- There is no one on the planet that isn't replaceable, if you want to think that way. Some are harder to replace than others. In this case. Harrison is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier to replace than Wilkerson, who does Harrison's job on third downs pretty often anyway. The drafting of Williams had everything to do with landing the best player in a draft and nothing to do with replacing Wilkerson. Not coincidentally, the Oilers have been relevant once, the year after, since trading Gretzky and are a joke of a franchise today.

[Mainejet]

I agree that come hell or high water, we must keep Snacks. He's homegrown talent that's deserving of being paid. Wilkerson, IMO, is far different. The guy just wants too much money. So I say the Jets can franchise him and get at least one more season. Williams is only 21 years old. Lets hope Williams can step up his game and make Wilkerson expendable. Personally, I do not want the Jets to meet Wilkerson's demands. As much as I love the guy his contract demands are just hot logical.

[CrazyCarl40]

 

Every game they won, Wilkerson had a great game and took over. Ridiculous questions deserve ridiculous answers. If you'd like a more serious answer, please walk me through every game Aaron Donald or whoever we're arguing about here took over and won solely by himself without anyone doing anything else - since that's a real thing now, totally (it's not).

I CAN tell you this with full confidence - there's no shot the Jets' two down run stuffer took over a game and won it by himself. 

Of course he didn't. That's why he's worth less than half of what Wilkerson is likely going to command. Big players make big plays when needed. Wilk doesn't really fit that bill. He disappears in the 4th quarter.

[SenorGato]

I agree that come hell or high water, we must keep Snacks. He's homegrown talent that's deserving of being paid. Wilkerson, IMO, is far different. The guy just wants too much money. So I say the Jets can franchise him and get at least one more season. Williams is only 21 years old. Lets hope Williams can step up his game and make Wilkerson expendable. Personally, I do not want the Jets to meet Wilkerson's demands. As much as I love the guy his contract demands are just hot logical.

Imaginary demands are imaginary, no one here has a clue as to what the actual demands are. I don't understand why the people pushing for Harrison can't work with reality and the facts of the situation. It's all cliched remarks and maybes and what ifs...

Harrison, as a 2 down player with an outdated skillset, is looking for $8 million. That's worth it simply on the basis of being less than what Wilkerson will get? That's lazy. The Jets are a historically lazy franchise, but hopefully this new FO is different.

[SenorGato]

Of course he didn't. That's why he's worth less than half of what Wilkerson is likely going to command. Big players make big plays when needed. Wilk doesn't really fit that bill. He disappears in the 4th quarter.

As much as I like cliches, I prefer facts and I'm going to run with this as something totally made up. If the best arguments to not sign Wilkerson come down to meaningless cliches with nothing to stand on and imaginary prices, then we're pretty golden and the Jets should most definitely lock him up.

[CrazyCarl40]

As much as I like cliches, I prefer facts and I'm going to run with this as something totally made up. If the best arguments to not sign Wilkerson come down to meaningless cliches with nothing to stand on and imaginary prices, then we're pretty golden and the Jets should most definitely lock him up.

Of his 12 sacks, 9 of them came on 1st or 2nd down (likely lined up next to Snacks).

Of his 12 sacks only 3 came in the 4th quarter; only one of those three was at a competitive point in the game.

Of his 12 sacks, none came in the last 3 weeks when the Jets needed to keep winning to stay alive.

[Joe Jets fan]

Imaginary demands are imaginary, no one here has a clue as to what the actual demands are. I don't understand why the people pushing for Harrison can't work with reality and the facts of the situation. It's all cliched remarks and maybes and what ifs...

Harrison, as a 2 down player with an outdated skillset, is looking for $8 million. That's worth it simply on the basis of being less than what Wilkerson will get? That's lazy. The Jets are a historically lazy franchise, but hopefully this new FO is different.

Please show us where its imaginary demands when we say Mo wants it but in the same breath you can say Snacks wants 8 mil.  

I will say if Mo demands were equal to his play then he would be signed.

 

I say once again, if Mo is so good then we should take the two 1st round picks we can get for him.

[SenorGato]

Of his 12 sacks, 9 of them came on 1st or 2nd down (likely lined up next to Snacks).

Of his 12 sacks only 3 came in the 4th quarter; only one of those three was at a competitive point in the game.

Of his 12 sacks, none came in the last 3 weeks when the Jets needed to keep winning to stay alive.

OK, now do other DLmen around the league. From there - what about pressures and hits? Passes deflected? Stuffs? See why this is a tedious exercise that will take us nowhere?

Please show us where its imaginary demands when we say Mo wants it but in the same breath you can say Snacks wants 8 mil.  

I will say if Mo demands were equal to his play then he would be signed.

 

I say once again, if Mo is so good then we should take the two 1st round picks we can get for him.

- Snack's price is irrelevant to me in the first place. The Jets don't need to extend him unless he offers an outright bargain, which he won't. His role, a two down run stuffer, can be filled pretty easily and is not something to pay a premium for.

- You will say that, but like most things said that doesn't make it true.

- You've gone from asking me whether he'd get two firsts to telling me he'd get two firsts. Yet somehow, you think paying the run stuffer is more worthwhile than keeping the player you now say a team would give to firsts for. If Mo is so good that he is worth two firsts in your eyes, then he's worth whatever they'll be paying him this offseason.

[Jet Nut]

Of his 12 sacks, 9 of them came on 1st or 2nd down (likely lined up next to Snacks).

Of his 12 sacks only 3 came in the 4th quarter; only one of those three was at a competitive point in the game.

Of his 12 sacks, none came in the last 3 weeks when the Jets needed to keep winning to stay alive.

Ok, this is damning.  lol

Another Jet fans falling over himself to denigrate one of the best players on the team.  It is an amazing fanbase we see here

[CrazyCarl40]

OK, now do other DLmen around the league. From there - what about pressures and hits? Passes deflected? Stuffs? See why this is a tedious exercise that will take us nowhere?

- Snack's price is irrelevant to me in the first place. The Jets don't need to extend him unless he offers an outright bargain, which he won't. His role, a two down run stuffer, can be filled pretty easily and is not something to pay a premium for.

- You will say that, but like most things said that doesn't make it true.

- You've gone from asking me whether he'd get two firsts to telling me he'd get two firsts. Yet somehow, you think paying the run stuffer is more worthwhile than keeping the player you now say a team would give to firsts for. If Mo is so good that he is worth two firsts in your eyes, then he's worth whatever they'll be paying him this offseason.

LOL. Stop that right there. Filled pretty easily? Really? Okay. Who is taking Snacks' spot and where is this magical player coming from?

[SenorGato]

LOL. Stop that right there. Filled pretty easily? Really? Okay. Who is taking Snacks' spot and where is this magical player coming from?

TJ Barnes, just like Harrison magically appeared in 2013 (after sitting for 2-3 years) in between Wilkerson and Richardson. Like Harrison before him, Barnes will be the next totally awesome 2-down run stuffer to pop up out of nowhere after getting lucky enough to play in between Wilkerson and the rest of the Jets' young DL.

Since Barnes isn't a Jets player anymore...Someone else cheap and large, there's several FA options that won't break the bank and can occupy space for two downs.

 

 

[SenorGato]

Ok, this is damning.  lol

Another Jet fans falling over himself to denigrate one of the best players on the team.  It is an amazing fanbase we see here

It's not damning, it's weak sauce - more flash than substance, and not even all that flashy. There's nothing to compare this to, only has the tiniest pieces of information, it relies on one stat...There's almost literally nothing that can be taken out of it except for when Wilkerson picked up sacks, which is =/= taking over a game or winning a game by yourself.

 

 

[Snell41]

Revis is most definitely worth his contract, then and now. Coles went right into Washington and gave them 80/1200/6 right off the bat before injury. Abraham put up 76 sacks after leaving the Jets, averaging 10 a season, while the Jets have never replaced him. Mangold has been the center for one of the least productive offenses over the past ten years. It took the Jets multiple years to recover from losing McKenzie at RT and Thomas at RG, two more prime aged performers they let go.

All of those guys were let go with absolutely nothing behind them in terms of replacements.  Most teams in the NFL would absolutely dream of a 3-4 DL of Snacks, Williams, and Richardson.  You need to factor that in.  A drat pick for Mo would be extremely helpful right now.  Having Snacks/Sheldon/Williams paired with a top tier OLB would be a much better situation for us.

[neckdemon]

One year deal never killed anyone

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

my point was that you can look at the franchise tag number as a rough estimate as to what hes going to want per year. if the average of the top 5 players at his position is 16 million and he thinks he's just about as good as watt.....you can sort of guess how much money hes going to expect

[neckdemon]

All of those guys were let go with absolutely nothing behind them in terms of replacements.  Most teams in the NFL would absolutely dream of a 3-4 DL of Snacks, Williams, and Richardson.  You need to factor that in.  A drat pick for Mo would be extremely helpful right now.  Having Snacks/Sheldon/Williams paired with a top tier OLB would be a much better situation for us.

exactly. a 3-4 DL with those 3 is a great DL. spending 14 million per year on wilkerson is ridiculous

[SenorGato]

All of those guys were let go with absolutely nothing behind them in terms of replacements.  Most teams in the NFL would absolutely dream of a 3-4 DL of Snacks, Williams, and Richardson.  You need to factor that in.  A drat pick for Mo would be extremely helpful right now.  Having Snacks/Sheldon/Williams paired with a top tier OLB would be a much better situation for us.

The good ones would be even more excited at being able to line up Richardson - Wilkerson - Williams. I don't see why this is a major factor, but I do know which line would kick more ass against teams with QBs. Keeping Mo would be more helpful than a draft pick. Having Wilkerson/Sheldon/Williams paired with an improved LB group works way better and is infinitely more practical than signing Snacks on the assumption that some unavailable top tier LB will be joining the team. 

[SenorGato]

exactly. a 3-4 DL with those 3 is a great DL. spending 14 million per year on wilkerson is ridiculous

A 3-4 DL with Richardson-Wilkerson-Williams is a better and greater DL, without question. Spending 6+ million, as much as 8+ million, to sure up the run defense on the first two downs is even more ridiculous than paying Wilkerson what he has earned with half a decade of elite play before even turning 26.