" Losing 'Big Snacks' Harrison would be a punch in the Jets' nose " ~ ~ ~

[kelly]

With free agency set to begin March 9, we'll examine the New York Jets’ top free agents over the next several days :

Player : Damon Harrison

Position : Nose tackle

Age : 27

Previous contract : One year, $2.35 million (RFA tender)

2015 stats : Harrison started every game for the third straight year, finishing with a career-high 39 solo tackles, 0.5 sacks and one forced fumble. He also had nine tackles-for-loss, tied for second on the team, per the Jets' in-house stats.

The case to keep him : You can't run an effective 3-4 defense without a strong nose tackle, and Harrison is one of the best in the business. He has the size and power to occupy two blockers in a two-gap scheme, but he also has enough quickness to be a one-gap penetrator. It's hard to find guys like that. Todd Bowles made it clear how much he values Big Snacks, and you can bet he'll stand on the table to keep him. From a public-relations standpoint, it makes sense. The Jets signed him as an undrafted free agent and developed him into a terrific player, a real homegrown success story. It would be a shame to see another team reap the benefits over the long term.

The case to let him go : The Jets already have $22.7 million in cap space devoted to Leonard Williams, Sheldon Richardson and Muhammad Wilkerson(assuming he gets the franchise tag for an estimated $15.5 million), so do they really want to pour more money into the defensive line? The going rate for a top nose tackle is $4.5 million per year, but Harrison also will be attractive to 4-3 teams. Two years ago, Paul Soliai -- similar to Harrison -- landed a five-year, $32 million contract from the Atlanta Falcons, including $11 million guaranteed. That would be a lot of coin for a two-down player; Harrison played 56 percent of the defensive snaps last season.

Crystal ball : This could be the Jets' toughest free-agent decision. They very much want to keep Harrison, but Big Snacks will command a big payday. He'll probably wait until the legal tampering period (March 7-9), when he'll be able to negotiate with other teams, making it even tougher for the Jets to keep him. This is a tough call, but the sense is that it's 60-40 he leaves.

>     http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/58440/losing-big-snacks-harrison-would-be-a-punch-in-the-jets-nose

 

[kelly]

The Jets are one of the few teams that will be watched closely through the exclusive negotiation period and franchise tag window in order to see what they'll do with star defensive end Muhammad Wilkerson -- a player that has been promised a new deal by three different general managers over the course of his career. But there is another key cog on their defensive line that no one is talking about, who is also set to cash in.

"The fact that the best of me has yet to come should excite my supporters," Jets nose tackleDamon Harrison wrote on Twitter Monday. "But it should seriously frighten anybody who isn't for me."

Harrison is not shy about staking his claim in the football world. The former undrafted free agent told Around The NFL during the preseason that "I feel like I'm the best nose tackle in football. If you look at a nose tackle's job description, nobody does it better than me and I'm confident in saying that."His note on Twitter was perhaps another reminder as the exclusive negotiating window dwindles and free agency prepares to open.Pro Football Focus is really the only site attempting to rank nose tackles, but they have listed Harrison among the best in football over the past three years. And while he only plays about half the teams' defensive snaps, he continues to improve. In 2015, that meant leading the NFL in 'stops,' a metric that measures solo defensive plays that result in a failure for the offense. He was tied with Aaron Donald for first in the NFL.

On a basic box-score level, he had more tackles than Vince Wilfork, Dontari Poe and Paul Soliai -- some of the more traditional headliners at the nose tackle position. It's not easy to make an impact on an individual level at the nose tackle position and much of the job entails drawing double teams and creating log jams at the point of attack.The Jets have an enviable cadre of versatile defensive linemen, but in a 3-4, so much of their success depends on the grunt work done by Harrison. If he fields anywhere near the five-year, $32 million contract signed by Soliai back in 2014 or the five-year $40 million extension Wilfork signed at the height of his prime, might he be fielding it somewhere else?

>      http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000636375/article/will-damon-harrison-cash-in-with-jets-or-hit-market

[kelly]

Pending free agent Damon Harrison wants to remain with the New York Jets, and he's hopeful that will happen."I just really want to be a part of something special and I think we should be able to get something done," the big nose tackle said Tuesday in an interview with SiriusXM NFL Radio. "If not, I understand it's a business and they'll do what's best for them on the business side, as will I.

"But all hopes point to me coming back here, which I definitely want to do."

Obviously, the two sides are negotiating. The Jets have exclusive negotiating rights until March 7, when the "legal tampering" period begins. Free agency commences March 9.Coach Todd Bowles made it clear at the end of the season that he wants to retain Harrison, one of four defensive starters who could be free agents. The others are Muhammad Wilkerson, Demario Davis and Calvin Pace. Wilkerson is expected to get the franchise tag.

Harrison said he's "not a money-hungry type of player," adding, "I love winning more than I love money." He figures to command a deal that will pay him at least $5 million a year.

>     http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/58485/jets-nt-damon-harrison-says-all-hopes-point-to-a-return

[Tinstar]

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. We are counting every penny we spend on the young still playing well defensive line but we have an even more highly paid offensive line that's offensive to the health of our starting QBs . I say if we're going to weaken any part of our team, start with that miserable offensive line and keep our strong defensive line together at all cost

[Savage69]

20 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. We are counting every penny we spend on the young still playing well defensive line but we have an even more highly paid offensive line that's offensive to the health of our starting QBs . I say if we're going to weaken any part of our team, start with that miserable offensive line and keep our strong defensive line together at all cost

No doubt the O-line needs major attention but we went 4-12 with that D line it was the addition of Marshall and Fitz that got us to 10-6..

[drdetroit]

The 3-4 defense without a real Nose Tackle -- well it kinda sucks. See 2006-2007

[drdetroit]

7 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

No doubt the O-line needs major attention but we went 4-12 with that D line it was the addition of Marshall and Fitz that got us to 10-6..

We're going to upgrade at RT.  Giacomini is a goner and there are reasonably priced free agents available like Andre Smith and Joe Barksdale

[Mainejet]

Ya gotta have faith. And no, I'm not copying that gay 80's song. Just saying I feel confident the Jets will get something done with Snacks. Mac will NOT let Wilk and Snacks go, that's not going to happen. But they can't reach an agreement with Wilk, the franchise tag is there, Snacks gets signed for about 5 million per season and quite frankly he's worth it. He's no Kris Jenkins, nor will he ever be, but he's probably one of the best NT's in the league right now.

[Freemanm]

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

[jgb]

24 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

No doubt the O-line needs major attention but we went 4-12 with that D line it was the addition of Marshall and Fitz that got us to 10-6..

Can't let the O Line continue to degrade. Ask Herm and Rex what happens when you do that. Easy to overlook but devastating if you do.

[drdetroit]

2 minutes ago, Freemanm said:

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

Correct

[Mainejet]

1 hour ago, Savage69 said:

No doubt the O-line needs major attention but we went 4-12 with that D line it was the addition of Marshall and Fitz that got us to 10-6..

That's not all of it, Savage. You know just as well as I do that this team had absolute sh*t for talent just last season. What about adding 3 corners and a Safety to the secondary? The defense gave up less points on a per game basis and generated a lot more turnovers. If that isn't a tribute to a talent purge then I don't know what is.

[SenorGato]

1 hour ago, Freemanm said:

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/2015-snap-counts.htm

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-third-down-conversion-pct

Most people honestly believe alot of things that aren't true or real. I honestly believe in a Bigfoot of some kind.

[Raideraholic]

2 hours ago, Mainejet said:

Ya gotta have faith. And no, I'm not copying that gay 80's song. Just saying I feel confident the Jets will get something done with Snacks. Mac will NOT let Wilk and Snacks go, that's not going to happen. But they can't reach an agreement with Wilk, the franchise tag is there, Snacks gets signed for about 5 million per season and quite frankly he's worth it. He's no Kris Jenkins, nor will he ever be, but he's probably one of the best NT's in the league right now.

At least 6 million per year is the going rate for Damian Harrison.(he turned down five million per year offer from the Jets - now he's going to take it. ( on the threshold of getting paid)  He can get 6 million from the Giants without leaving town.     

[Savage69]

18 minutes ago, Mainejet said:

That's not all of it, Savage. You know just as well as I do that this team had absolute sh*t for talent just last season. What about adding 3 corners and a Safety to the secondary? The defense gave up less points on a per game basis and generated a lot more turnovers. If that isn't a tribute to a talent purge then I don't know what is.

We gave up 19.6 points a game this past season in 2009 we gave up 14.8 per game and we had more rushing TD's 21 then passing td's 12.. This year we had 33 passing tds and just 11 rushing..

[Augustiniak]

2 hours ago, Freemanm said:

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

when you factor in the cap hit, i agree.  i think mccags also knows this, which is why mo wilk still has no long-term contract.

[Savage69]

31 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

when you factor in the cap hit, i agree.  i think mccags also knows this, which is why mo wilk still has no long-term contract.

If Mo would sign for what Cam Jordan did he would have a contract IMO..

[SenorGato]

8 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

If Mo would sign for what Cam Jordan did he would have a contract IMO..

JMO, but Mac would have given him a lifetime contract if he would play for free.

[Savage69]

2 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

JMO, but Mac would have given him a lifetime contract if he would play for free.

So you think Mo is worth millions more then Cam Jordan?? Jordan is the only good lineman on the team..

[SenorGato]

 

Just now, Savage69 said:

So you think Mo is worth millions more then Cam Jordan?? Jordan is the only good lineman on the team..

Yes, and that's not a reason Wilkerson is worth less as a player. Jordan took his money early, he'd be worth more in FA easily. 

[Rangers9]

Belichick singled Snacks out during the season as a game changer for the Jets on D (and didn't mention other Jets D players like Wilk). Either because he really believes it or knows the Jets have to re-sign him and is trying to push his price up (to screw the Jets). And rumors are that NEP is going to spend more money in free agency this off season esp for offensive skill players. But if they could get Snacks for 5 mil per they could be interested. It's a possible landing place for him. Hopefully our Exec of the Year would thwart that and get him in the fold for us. But I think it would take more than 5 to sign him. 

[SenorGato]

3 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Belichick singled Snacks out during the season as a game changer for the Jets on D (and didn't mention other Jets D players like Wilk). Either because he really believes it or knows the Jets have to re-sign him and is trying to push his price up (to screw the Jets). And rumors are that NEP is going to spend more money in free agency this off season esp for offensive skill players. But if they could get Snacks for 5 mil per they could be interested. It's a possible landing place for him. Hopefully our Exec of the Year would thwart that and get him in the fold for us. But I think it would take more than 5 to sign him. 

If I was the coach of a rival team, especially one with a star QB and top passing offense, I would advise all other teams to build a really stout run defense too. 

[Smashmouth]

14 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Belichick singled Snacks out during the season as a game changer for the Jets on D (and didn't mention other Jets D players like Wilk). Either because he really believes it or knows the Jets have to re-sign him and is trying to push his price up (to screw the Jets). And rumors are that NEP is going to spend more money in free agency this off season esp for offensive skill players. But if they could get Snacks for 5 mil per they could be interested. It's a possible landing place for him. Hopefully our Exec of the Year would thwart that and get him in the fold for us. But I think it would take more than 5 to sign him. 

Belichick understands the importance of a very good NT in a 3-4 scheme there is no way you let one of the best in the game walk. Its not a glamour position and it never will be but those that understand what the 3-4 is all about know when you weigh all the options Harrison is the better bet moving forward than Wilkerson. If the Jets ran a 4-3 this whole conversation changes but they don't. Scheme and money play a big part obviously and the smart move is to just let Wilk walk if he's asking for a huge payday because their are much more important holes to fill on defense than DE since we have 2 others who can play the position well. How many NT do the Jets have to fill Harrisons shoes ??

I said it before no one knows what Wilk is asking for and if its over 10 mil per you can not justify paying that much money for a 3-4 DE the big money ALWAYS goes into the LB's in the current scheme the Jets run. If Mo was a totally dominant football player this would be a different story but he's not. He's fast for his size but he's not fast enough to put constant pressure on a QB and in the 3-4 defense that's the LB's job so upgrading that position will pay dividends if you have guys that can occupy blockers up front.

[flgreen]

3 hours ago, drdetroit said:

We're going to upgrade at RT.  Giacomini is a goner and there are reasonably priced free agents available like Andre Smith and Joe Barksdale

 

Agree that Giacomini is a goner.  Before we rush off and sign FA's don't forget that Qvale is on the team.  IMO the Jets wanted to replace Giacomini last year with Qvale.  He got a lot of reps with the 1's last summer at both RG and RT.  he actually played very well.  Mostly in the run game.  In pass protection he had some inconsistency, and pulled a few brain farts.   Suspect the CS decided to go with the vets one more year because of it.

Hopefully Qvale has improved his pass protection just a bit, and can take the job from Giacomini.  Rather promote in house then over pay a FA.    

[Raideraholic]

34 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

If I was the coach of a rival team, especially one with a star QB and top passing offense, I would advise all other teams to build a really stout run defense too. 

To unleash those pass rushers, you must make a team one dimensional first .( take away the team ability to run the football).

if the Carolina Panthers were successful running the football, just how effective would the Bronco's pass rush have been.  The Bronco's were able to unleash that pass rush because they totally took out the  Panthers running game.

you obviously remember when the Jets were atrocious stopping the run.   Why would anyone even pass it, when they can run the football down your throat.

Now the best defense is keeping the other team offense off the field.( by running it consistently well, and dominating the time of possession.

 

[Augustiniak]

8 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Belichick understands the importance of a very good NT in a 3-4 scheme there is no way you let one of the best in the game walk. Its not a glamour position and it never will be but those that understand what the 3-4 is all about know when you weigh all the options Harrison is the better bet moving forward than Wilkerson. If the Jets ran a 4-3 this whole conversation changes but they don't. Scheme and money play a big part obviously and the smart move is to just let Wilk walk if he's asking for a huge payday because their are much more important holes to fill on defense than DE since we have 2 others who can play the position well. How many NT do the Jets have to fill Harrisons shoes ??

I said it before no one knows what Wilk is asking for and if its over 10 mil per you can not justify paying that much money for a 3-4 DE the big money ALWAYS goes into the LB's in the current scheme the Jets run. If Mo was a totally dominant football player this would be a different story but he's not. He's fast for his size but he's not fast enough to put constant pressure on a QB and in the 3-4 defense that's the LB's job so upgrading that position will pay dividends if you have guys that can occupy blockers up front.

with wilfork there, you couldn't run on 1st down so a lot of times you were in 2nd and long, just like the jets did to opponents last year.  i believe harrison stays with the jets.

[flgreen]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

with wilfork there, you couldn't run on 1st down so a lot of times you were in 2nd and long, just like the jets did to opponents last year.  i believe harrison stays with the jets.

After the last two interviews I heard Snacks do I'm more encouraged then I was at the end of the season.   

At the end of the season he was saying things like " I want to be back, but know football is a business, and I'm grateful for my chance here"

Now he's saying things like, "I want to come back, and think some how things will work out"

 

I hope he knows something we don't.  Think losing Snacks would be a big loss.

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, flgreen said:

After the last two interviews I heard Snacks do I'm more encouraged then I was at the end of the season.   

At the end of the season he was saying things like " I want to be back, but know football is a business, and I'm grateful for my chance here"

Now he's saying things like, "I want to come back, and think some how things will work out"

 

I hope he knows something we don't.  Think losing Snacks would be a big loss.

i think mccags knows this.  and if the rumors are true that they like qvale, then giacomini may well get cut along with cro to free up cap room.

bring back powell and harrison, franchise wilk and try to trade him if the price is right.  after observing how mccags took leonard despite already having a strong d-line, i'm game for basically whatever position they take, as long as they get a good player.  we're all tired of the kyle williams/coples picks.  

[kelly]

4 hours ago, Freemanm said:

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

it is !.. tag mo ...then trade him  

[SenorGato]

20 minutes ago, Raideraholic said:

if the Carolina Panthers were successful running the football, just how effective would the Bronco's pass rush have been.  The Bronco's were able to unleash that pass rush because they totally took out the  Panthers running game.

 

Yeah, the whole establish the run to pass thing is dead. Carolina could not run because they could not pass, not the other way around. Their QB is probably/arguably their best RB.

It's nice that Harrison wants to come back and all, but he's pricing himself out as a guy who only plays half the snaps. On a team with three effective run stuffers, he's by far the easiest to let go.

[JohnnyLV]

4 hours ago, Freemanm said:

I honestly believe that keeping Harrison is more important than keeping Mo Wilkerson

Could not agree more 

[Dcat]

2 hours ago, SenorGato said:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyj/2015-snap-counts.htm

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-third-down-conversion-pct

Most people honestly believe alot of things that aren't true or real. I honestly believe in a Bigfoot of some kind.

The correlation you draw between % of snaps and importance to the team is not necessarily correct.  So if you are basing your argument against Snacks on this, your reasoning is faulty from the get go.  Yes, Snacks plays slightly more than 50% of the snaps.  That's because the defense puts the opposition in many 3rd and very long situations where run stopping is not as important and Snacks is off the field.  But his presence on 1st and 2nd down GREATLY contributes to the number of 3rd and longs and thereby his own good play contributes to his low % of snaps.  Ironically, his playing slightly above 50% of the snaps is testimony to his contributions and effectiveness during those snaps that he is on the field.

Snacks is very important to the defense.  So is Wilk.   Before you go and distort what I am writing, I'm not arguing against Wilk here.  I am merely arguing that you undervalue Snacks tremendously and that your use of his snap counts is completely illogical.  Had he not been effective on 1st and/or 2nd down, then teams would have 3rd and short aor already have a first down and Snacks would probably still be on the field. It would also mean that his play wasn't so good.

OK.  Carry on Senor.  Back to repeating yourself incessantly.

[SenorGato]

Quote

The correlation you draw between % of snaps and importance to the team is not necessarily correct.  So if you are basing your argument against Snacks on this, your reasoning is faulty from the get go.

Ignoring that you just made that up, it's a little ridiculous when one player plays 90% of the snaps and the other plays 50%. The best players play the most snaps, there's nothing illogical about that - teams want the players most capable of affecting an offense on the field most offense. Harrison is hardly the only NT in the league to leave the field often, and it's exactly what the situation will be with his cheaper replacement. To hear that this is an illogical argument from a guy who then tries to credit Harrison for solely creating an unknown amount of third and longs par for the course, but going with no - outside of your topsy turvy world, getting taken off the field for the highest leverage downs is a negative.

[Dcat]

7 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Ignoring that you just made that up, it's a little ridiculous when one player plays 90% of the snaps and the other plays 50%. The best players play the most snaps, there's nothing illogical about that - teams want the players most capable of affecting an offense on the field most offense. Harrison is hardly the only NT in the league to leave the field often, and it's exactly what the situation will be with his cheaper replacement. To hear that this is an illogical argument from a guy who then tries to credit Harrison for solely creating an unknown amount of third and longs par for the course, but going with no - outside of your topsy turvy world, getting taken off the field for the highest leverage downs is a negative.

You didn't read the post correctly.  Nowhere was I arguing against keeping Wilk. I even said that specifically in the post.  The point was just that you undervalue Snacks.  Next time read the whole post Senor.  Reading and responding to only a partial post makes it tough to engage in a reasonable discussion.  Not that "reasonable discussion" is part of your schtick here, since you constantly include little digs and insults at anyone who disagrees with you.. but we are used to that from you.  I just ignore it most of the time.

 

p.s. Question for all: is it not customary for run stuffing NTs to play a lower % of snaps than the rest of the starting D-line in a 3-4 format?  The better they do at run stuffing, the longer the yardage needed on 3rd downs so the more likely they are off the field on those plays.   

[Smashmouth]

24 minutes ago, SenorGato said:

Yeah, the whole establish the run to pass thing is dead. Carolina could not run because they could not pass, not the other way around. Their QB is probably/arguably their best RB.

It's nice that Harrison wants to come back and all, but he's pricing himself out as a guy who only plays half the snaps. On a team with three effective run stuffers, he's by far the easiest to let go.

yeah really ? So play action is dead ? If your running the ball down the opposing teams throat play action is still the biggest part of this game. The reason Carolina was able to do anything in the passing game this year was due to the fact that not only could they run the ball but their QB was a huge threat to run as well. I'm not sure where the hell your going with this Gato. The Denver defense stifled every option the Panthers had and they contained Cam Newton Don't make up fantasies to argue your point. Just because the Pats are willing to throw the ball at an alarming rate does not mean the fundamentals of the game have changed they chose not to run because they had no one to run and they used the short accurate passing game as an extension of the running game they didn't have. If you take the more well balanced offenses that have won SB's, teams that worked the pass off the success of the run game, the finding would be very lopsided in favor of the running teams. Even the Pats of the early 2000's were a run/defense oriented team. Even when Brees won his SB that team could run the ball extremely well and create turnovers on defense.