OL Question (Bitonti and SpermEdwards in particular)

[TuscanyTile2]

I'm not "advanced enough" to really evaluate OL play and I was wondering what people who have these opinions are watching during a play.  First off, do you mostly watch on TV or do you go to games?  Second, if TV, do you re-watch the game to focus on OL play (and other stuff that you might not be focusing on during the actual game)?  Or are you able to absorb how well everyone is doing from the initial viewing?  Obviously we all can see if a DL breaks through and pressures the QB.  But do we really know it's a certain OL's fault (as opposed to some other issue like another player missed an assignment)?

Another question - did you guys have exposure to any formal coaching (e.g. HS or college)?  I'm wondering if maybe it's easier to follow the line play if you've had that experience. 

[KRL]

To properly evaluate any line play you have to re-watch the game.  And even then

you will rewind multiple times to really see what happened

[joewilly12]

Vlad DuCasse says hello 

[Maxman]

On 2/20/2016 at 9:33 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm not "advanced enough" to really evaluate OL play and I was wondering what people who have these opinions are watching during a play.  First off, do you mostly watch on TV or do you go to games?  Second, if TV, do you re-watch the game to focus on OL play (and other stuff that you might not be focusing on during the actual game)?  Or are you able to absorb how well everyone is doing from the initial viewing?  Obviously we all can see if a DL breaks through and pressures the QB.  But do we really know it's a certain OL's fault (as opposed to some other issue like another player missed an assignment)?

Another question - did you guys have exposure to any formal coaching (e.g. HS or college)?  I'm wondering if maybe it's easier to follow the line play if you've had that experience. 

@bitonti @Sperm Edwards

[Maxman]

The @ replies will help them see this.

[Maxman]

On 2/20/2016 at 9:33 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm not "advanced enough" to really evaluate OL play and I was wondering what people who have these opinions are watching during a play.  First off, do you mostly watch on TV or do you go to games?  Second, if TV, do you re-watch the game to focus on OL play (and other stuff that you might not be focusing on during the actual game)?  Or are you able to absorb how well everyone is doing from the initial viewing?  Obviously we all can see if a DL breaks through and pressures the QB.  But do we really know it's a certain OL's fault (as opposed to some other issue like another player missed an assignment)?

Another question - did you guys have exposure to any formal coaching (e.g. HS or college)?  I'm wondering if maybe it's easier to follow the line play if you've had that experience. 

My son plays offensive line in college. And I have to tell you I enjoy sitting with him at the games. The pre snap stuff he points out to me, the blitz pick up stuff he points out, it is like he is watching a different game. It is amazing.

I always thought the announcers like Phil Simms hate having to dumb it down when the call the games.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 2/20/2016 at 9:33 AM, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm not "advanced enough" to really evaluate OL play and I was wondering what people who have these opinions are watching during a play.  First off, do you mostly watch on TV or do you go to games?  Second, if TV, do you re-watch the game to focus on OL play (and other stuff that you might not be focusing on during the actual game)?  Or are you able to absorb how well everyone is doing from the initial viewing?  Obviously we all can see if a DL breaks through and pressures the QB.  But do we really know it's a certain OL's fault (as opposed to some other issue like another player missed an assignment)?

Another question - did you guys have exposure to any formal coaching (e.g. HS or college)?  I'm wondering if maybe it's easier to follow the line play if you've had that experience. 

I rewind a lot during the game.

I don't only do it to watch OL play to see if or why the QB was pressured, but it's something I do look for (admittedly, not on every single play from every single one of our o-linemen). Was someone not holding his block, did someone appearing to miss his assignment (i.e. someone on the OL or a back not picking up a blitzer), did someone get juked badly or just get pushed backwards? Or was the QB - particularly our prior 2 QBs - just standing there like a statue, rarely stepping up or sliding one way or another as though he's expecting a pressure-less pocket to be maintained for 8 seconds? 

But other than OL there also with other things that I'm sensitive to when doing my dozens of post-play, in-game rewinds (Fitz looking to more than 1 downfield WR/target on maybe 5% of his dropbacks if the primary guy isn't open and thrown to right away; the way our DL gets held like crazy and flags are kept in the refs' pockets -- and no, we don't hold as much as others, but also even against supposedly suspect OLs it's not only holding that keeps our guys away from the QB; a lot of opponents just flat out are getting better OL play than we do despite our superior DL). I sense other people are looking for different things we each may look for in particular (not just whether someone caught the ball or got 2 feet in) because lots of us do the DVR rewind during the game. 

In real time I'm sure some people can spot all of this (or a lot of it) going on at the same time. I can't, unless I was looking for it right from the snap or unless someone obviously got run right over, and typically have to rewind the same play to watch it again, and sometimes to re-watch it 2-3 times. It drives Mrs. Sperm crazy and makes watching the game with me pretty unpleasant for her or for anyone who wants to casually watch it. But it's rare nowadays for me to watch the game a 2nd time, whether out of frustration with a loss, or just not having the time anymore. So I do this obnoxious routine during the game. It's why I'm behind a lot during game threads. Sometimes I don't realize I'm still watching "past tense" because I forgot to FF past the last set(s) of commercials.

[nj meadowlands]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I rewind a lot during the game.

I don't only do it to watch OL play to see if or why the QB was pressured, but it's something I do look for (admittedly, not on every single play from every single one of our o-linemen). Was someone not holding his block, did someone appearing to miss his assignment (i.e. someone on the OL or a back not picking up a blitzer), did someone get juked badly or just get pushed backwards? Or was the QB - particularly our prior 2 QBs - just standing there like a statue, rarely stepping up or sliding one way or another as though he's expecting a pressure-less pocket to be maintained for 8 seconds? 

But other than OL there also with other things that I'm sensitive to when doing my dozens of post-play, in-game rewinds (Fitz looking to more than 1 downfield WR/target on maybe 5% of his dropbacks if the primary guy isn't open and thrown to right away; the way our DL gets held like crazy and flags are kept in the refs' pockets -- and no, we don't hold as much as others, but also even against supposedly suspect OLs it's not only holding that keeps our guys away from the QB; a lot of opponents just flat out are getting better OL play than we do despite our superior DL). I sense other people are looking for different things we each may look for in particular (not just whether someone caught the ball or got 2 feet in) because lots of us do the DVR rewind during the game. 

In real time I'm sure some people can spot all of this (or a lot of it) going on at the same time. I can't, unless I was looking for it right from the snap or unless someone obviously got run right over, and typically have to rewind the same play to watch it again, and sometimes to re-watch it 2-3 times. It drives Mrs. Sperm crazy and makes watching the game with me pretty unpleasant for her or for anyone who wants to casually watch it. But it's rare nowadays for me to watch the game a 2nd time, whether out of frustration with a loss, or just not having the time anymore. So I do this obnoxious routine during the game. It's why I'm behind a lot during game threads. Sometimes I don't realize I'm still watching "past tense" because I forgot to FF past the last set(s) of commercials.

 

So what you're saying is, watching a game with you is more exhausting than reading your posts?

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

When did those 2 knuckleheads become the Offensive Line experts?  One says we need to move on from Ferguson.  The other says "Nooo don't.  He's good and stuff."

Enlightening.

[Jetsfan80]

^^^^ Totally jelly

[Beerfish]

If he can jump out of a pool with cleats on and a knitted uniform he's good, else he is a jag.

[bitonti]

I played OL in high school and a couple years in college (division III). When I look at the game, my eyes start on the center snapping the football and I watch the trenches primarily. 

Currently I work as an offensive line expert for footballguys.com.

To evaluate the OL I take a different approach than most. I purposely avoid the PFF, FO and Rotoworld grades.  I have respect for the work those sources put in but I don't share their conclusions, so I use my own grades. Besides that's their work, I don't want to copy them even if they are correct. I rank the players at the start of every year and update the rankings weekly based on injuries and current form. 

To elaborate on "current form" I don't change the grades drastically from game to game. If Nick Mangold is an "A" player at the start of the season, a bad game doesn't turn him into a "B" player. He'd have to have several bad games in a row or even a bad year for me to change his grade. Penalties affect form. Offensive output does not.

A mistake many sources make is to start with an offense that produces tons of points and assume that the offensive line is great. People did this for years with manning and the colts and they do it now with Brady and the Pats.  The Cleveland Browns had a great OL last year but they sucked as an offense. It happens. The connection between OL play and points is not always straight forward, especially in the passing game. Every year the QB play becomes more important. A great QB can overcome terrible OL it happens every week. 

I also grade the defensive front 7s and find week to week matchups. People like those, I just started doing that this season. It might not be meaningful to say the Jets have the league's 9th best OL. But it becomes more meaningful when they play the Giants 30th ranked DL (without JPP)  and there's a juicy +21 matchup to set your lineups against. 

An aspect which most sources overlook is cohesion. I can't stress how important cohesion is to good offensive line play. These guys need to trust each other and that only comes with reps. You can have 5 mediocre players who have played together for 32 games (2 regular seasons) be a much better line than 5 Pro Bowlers who just met. I grade the amount of time everyone has played together as a 6th starter. Also it's important that they are playing the same position. Moving a player like Kelechi Osemele to left tackle from left guard or Sebastian Vollmer from right tackle to right guard is a small hit to cohesion. 

As for the games themselves I do watch and I do even re-watch using the game plan but it's hard to get grades without knowing the play calls and the blocking schemes. It's easy to see when someone pancakes another player or the rare OL reception (Jake Fisher had one this year, as did Donald Penn) and those are good anecdotal points for the weekly articles. 

All of this data, it might see like a haphazard way to grade. But over the years I've been proud of the results.

And where do the Jets fit into all this? If you know every starter on all 32 teams, without looking them up, you get context.

If you compare the Jets to themselves it's easy to get down on the team. No they aren't as good as Alan Faneca's 4 first rounder year in 2009. But they are better than many other teams.  

And with context comes the knowledge that most teams don't actually have a DBrick. He's a long lanky never hurt starting caliber LT. Eli Manning would love to have Dbrick. NO other teams have a Nick Mangold. He's an all time great at the position. With those two, and Carpenter, the Jets were well above average last year and because they stayed healthy (mostly) they kept rising in the rankings. By the end of the year, believe it or not, they were a top 10 unit. They weren't amazing but the quality of OL play across the board is declining. Other teams didn't have such injury luck (or all pro centers) and that has to be taken into account. The Pats for example paid Nate Solder 10 mil per year and he was on the IR the entire year. 

Does that mean I think the Jets should keep DBrick for life and pay him 15 mil per year? No. I just see all sorts of other teams who would love to have that player, even in his decline. I think the Jets do have to replace him but it's either a first round pick or a multi-year process. Probably both. For the record I think this dude Spriggs from Indiana could play the position. But some will say he's a reach at 20 and others will say he's not a LT day  1. They are probably right on both counts. but that's the type of investment it will take. When Gato says just sign Mitchell Schwartz or Joe Barksdale and play him at LT, that's misinformed. There are LT and there are RT and they aren't the same. One gets paid twice as much as the other. 

Other teams like the Pats and Chargers were injury ravaged and had so many lineup changes, they never left the basement of the OL rankings. Does that mean the Pats were a terrible offense? Obviously not. But it does mean if you were gambling on lets say James White to save your DFS team, that might be a misguided hope. 

That's my OL point of view. It's not perfect but I do put alot of work in, week to week. Any further questions, I'd be happy to try to answer. 

[RutgersJetFan]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I rewind a lot during the game.

I don't only do it to watch OL play to see if or why the QB was pressured, but it's something I do look for (admittedly, not on every single play from every single one of our o-linemen). Was someone not holding his block, did someone appearing to miss his assignment (i.e. someone on the OL or a back not picking up a blitzer), did someone get juked badly or just get pushed backwards? Or was the QB - particularly our prior 2 QBs - just standing there like a statue, rarely stepping up or sliding one way or another as though he's expecting a pressure-less pocket to be maintained for 8 seconds? 

But other than OL there also with other things that I'm sensitive to when doing my dozens of post-play, in-game rewinds (Fitz looking to more than 1 downfield WR/target on maybe 5% of his dropbacks if the primary guy isn't open and thrown to right away; the way our DL gets held like crazy and flags are kept in the refs' pockets -- and no, we don't hold as much as others, but also even against supposedly suspect OLs it's not only holding that keeps our guys away from the QB; a lot of opponents just flat out are getting better OL play than we do despite our superior DL). I sense other people are looking for different things we each may look for in particular (not just whether someone caught the ball or got 2 feet in) because lots of us do the DVR rewind during the game. 

In real time I'm sure some people can spot all of this (or a lot of it) going on at the same time. I can't, unless I was looking for it right from the snap or unless someone obviously got run right over, and typically have to rewind the same play to watch it again, and sometimes to re-watch it 2-3 times. It drives Mrs. Sperm crazy and makes watching the game with me pretty unpleasant for her or for anyone who wants to casually watch it. But it's rare nowadays for me to watch the game a 2nd time, whether out of frustration with a loss, or just not having the time anymore. So I do this obnoxious routine during the game. It's why I'm behind a lot during game threads. Sometimes I don't realize I'm still watching "past tense" because I forgot to FF past the last set(s) of commercials.

Yes but where did you receive your formal training?

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, nj meadowlands said:

 

So what you're saying is, watching a game with you is more exhausting than reading your posts?

 

 

I am saying that very thing.

[Smashmouth]

16 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I rewind a lot during the game.

I don't only do it to watch OL play to see if or why the QB was pressured, but it's something I do look for (admittedly, not on every single play from every single one of our o-linemen). Was someone not holding his block, did someone appearing to miss his assignment (i.e. someone on the OL or a back not picking up a blitzer), did someone get juked badly or just get pushed backwards? Or was the QB - particularly our prior 2 QBs - just standing there like a statue, rarely stepping up or sliding one way or another as though he's expecting a pressure-less pocket to be maintained for 8 seconds? 

But other than OL there also with other things that I'm sensitive to when doing my dozens of post-play, in-game rewinds (Fitz looking to more than 1 downfield WR/target on maybe 5% of his dropbacks if the primary guy isn't open and thrown to right away; the way our DL gets held like crazy and flags are kept in the refs' pockets -- and no, we don't hold as much as others, but also even against supposedly suspect OLs it's not only holding that keeps our guys away from the QB; a lot of opponents just flat out are getting better OL play than we do despite our superior DL). I sense other people are looking for different things we each may look for in particular (not just whether someone caught the ball or got 2 feet in) because lots of us do the DVR rewind during the game. 

In real time I'm sure some people can spot all of this (or a lot of it) going on at the same time. I can't, unless I was looking for it right from the snap or unless someone obviously got run right over, and typically have to rewind the same play to watch it again, and sometimes to re-watch it 2-3 times. It drives Mrs. Sperm crazy and makes watching the game with me pretty unpleasant for her or for anyone who wants to casually watch it. But it's rare nowadays for me to watch the game a 2nd time, whether out of frustration with a loss, or just not having the time anymore. So I do this obnoxious routine during the game. It's why I'm behind a lot during game threads. Sometimes I don't realize I'm still watching "past tense" because I forgot to FF past the last set(s) of commercials.

Sperm I do the exact same thing (wife included lol) and sometimes on a Monday if I see strong accusations against a player or praise I will watch that player over the course of a game. Its not easy to figure out every players assignment, sometimes a wiff as seen at game speed was not actually a wiff at all but you in fact never really know what that player was expecting to happen with pick ups and what the play was actually designed to do. Same when a QB throws a back shoulder throw and the Receiver is not on the same page it looks like a terrible underthrow when it was the receivers fault or even the QB's fault for not knowing the right play. I think a lot of what happened with the two previous QB's you mentioned was a combination of their own ignorance and the ignorance of a terrible receiving corp. All WR's have amazing ability the ones who excel are the ones who play smart and can out smart the defense. Its why having a QB and WR on the same page is so damn important. Same goes for the OL when picking up blitzes and knowing where to help out in certain situations.

When it comes to QB's Im not sure some fans know exactly what it takes to be a good one at the NFL level. You don't play the position consistently GOOD by having amazing skills. What these guys do by knowing exactly what every player on the field is responsible for and staying cool in the pocket is insanely hard and its the main reason you have so few elite ones available. Coming into the league in the right situation is also very important for a young QB and the Jets over the past 8+ years have really not been QB friendly until this year and we were still IMHO undermanned on offense playing without a real threat out of the backfield for most of the year and no real answer at TE. If we fill those 2 holes and get some big improvements up front in the running game watch out.

[Sperm Edwards]

On February 23, 2016 at 10:41 PM, Smashmouth said:

Sperm I do the exact same thing (wife included lol) and sometimes on a Monday if I see strong accusations against a player or praise I will watch that player over the course of a game. Its not easy to figure out every players assignment, sometimes a wiff as seen at game speed was not actually a wiff at all but you in fact never really know what that player was expecting to happen with pick ups and what the play was actually designed to do. Same when a QB throws a back shoulder throw and the Receiver is not on the same page it looks like a terrible underthrow when it was the receivers fault or even the QB's fault for not knowing the right play. I think a lot of what happened with the two previous QB's you mentioned was a combination of their own ignorance and the ignorance of a terrible receiving corp. All WR's have amazing ability the ones who excel are the ones who play smart and can out smart the defense. Its why having a QB and WR on the same page is so damn important. Same goes for the OL when picking up blitzes and knowing where to help out in certain situations.

When it comes to QB's Im not sure some fans know exactly what it takes to be a good one at the NFL level. You don't play the position consistently GOOD by having amazing skills. What these guys do by knowing exactly what every player on the field is responsible for and staying cool in the pocket is insanely hard and its the main reason you have so few elite ones available. Coming into the league in the right situation is also very important for a young QB and the Jets over the past 8+ years have really not been QB friendly until this year and we were still IMHO undermanned on offense playing without a real threat out of the backfield for most of the year and no real answer at TE. If we fill those 2 holes and get some big improvements up front in the running game watch out.

Anyone with eyes can see when a LT gets beat one on one to pressure a QB who gets rid of the ball pretty quickly, as well as when he commits false start and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. You can't say that his poor play is just the result of not appreciating all the things he's doing right, but another's (like Breno's) poor play is so obvious. The truth is they're both bad, and a lot of the on & off difficulties you're pointing to in the recent ground game are due to an inability to run behind Ferguson with anything resembling consistency. 

To the rest of it, I don't at all discount consistency having value. The OL plays as a unit, not as 5 individuals. But a poorly-playing individual hurts the unit and you don't bring back someone just for consistency-sake. The same person justifying his salary or extending him further also had his hair on fire when we let cut Faneca. THEN any penalty or poor play from a first year starter guard was supposedly so easy to identify. It's bullsh*t. Faneca wasn't too good for us in his last season here (statistically was the worst pass-blocking guard in the NFL), and was an outright failure for Arizona in his final NFL season before hanging it up. Always it is fear of worse, and their personal certainty of worse, with those who have their favorite players questioned. Meanwhile it is a recipe for never improving upon that favorite player and giving young players a chance to succeed. Meanwhile it didn't take half a season for Slauson to become a better and more consistent guard than Faneca was in his final NFL season. This further forces the team into signing and retaining players at high dollars that should be used to shore up other team weaknesses. Left to the devices of some, letting go of Faneca never would have happened, and we would have kept on throwing $8M/season at him instead of ~0.5M/season for Slauson and use the change on locking up a (then-excellent) Cromartie.

If Ferguson was $3-4M that would be one thing. But at a $10M+ salary with a $14M+ cap hit, it's stupid. He stops us from getting better at LT and he stops us from getting better at the position that would be the $ beneficiary of Brick's sizable cap allotment.  

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meanwhile it didn't take half a season for Slauson to become a better and more consistent guard than Faneca was in his final NFL season. 

the Jets drafted a Faneca replacement in 2009. They also drafted Vlad in 2010. That's two possible replacements, a 6th rounder and a 2nd rounder. 

 

The fact that you seem to just breeze by is the Jets haven't invested anything in replacing Brick. There is no replacement Brick on the roster, let alone two possible replacements. There is a way to replace Brick and it's either a very high draft pick or a multi-year process. They should begin the multi year process but in the meantime they don't have any alternatives. That's the problem. You want to replace something with nothing. 

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the Jets drafted a Faneca replacement in 2009. They also drafted Vlad in 2010. That's two possible replacements, a 6th rounder and a 2nd rounder. 

 

The fact that you seem to just breeze by is the Jets haven't invested anything in replacing Brick. There is no replacement Brick on the roster, let alone two possible replacements. There is a way to replace Brick and it's either a very high draft pick or a multi-year process. They should begin the multi year process but in the meantime they don't have any alternatives. That's the problem. You want to replace something with nothing. 

Bit, there's this thing called the salary cap that forces teams to make decisions before they're fully prepared and ready to do so.  Brick carries a $14.1M cap hit, with few potential avenues to take away from that cap hit. Sometimes you have to part ways with players you can ill afford to lose.

Meanwhile, we have Wilkerson, Fitzpatrick, Ivory, Powell and Snacks set to hit free agency.  I don't see many ways we can avoid losing 2-3 of those guys if we're paying Ferguson $14.1M and a bunch of other guys big cap dollars as well (Revis, Mangold, Marshall and Decker).  So take your pick(s).  Who are we letting go?

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Bit, there's this thing called the salary cap that forces teams to make decisions before they're fully prepared and ready to do so.  Brick carries a $14.1M cap hit, with few potential avenues to take away from that cap hit. Sometimes you have to part ways with players you can ill afford to lose.

Meanwhile, we have Wilkerson, Fitzpatrick, Ivory, Powell and Snacks set to hit free agency.  I don't see many ways we can avoid losing 2-3 of those guys if we're paying Ferguson $14.1M and a bunch of other guys big cap dollars as well (Revis, Mangold, Marshall and Decker).  So take your pick(s).  Who are we letting go?

They will try to restructure but Brick has all the leverage. Because, again, the Jets didn't plan for a future without Brick. I'll make you a deal 80 i'll pick which names stay and which leave if you tell me who the next starting LT is for the Jets, and bonus points, how much that player will cost. 

 

it should also be noted that a release of Brick makes more sense after June 1 than before. So maybe they draft Jason Spriggs or Taylor Decker 10 slots early in rd1 and maybe they think that player is amazing in minicamp to start LT as a rookie.

But  that's alot of ifs. right now, 2/24 there's no Brick replacement on the roster. And that makes it very different from a Faneca situation. 

[Smashmouth]

7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Anyone with eyes can see when a LT gets beat one on one to pressure a QB who gets rid of the ball pretty quickly, as well as when he commits false start and unsportsmanlike conduct penalties. You can't say that his poor play is just the result of not appreciating all the things he's doing right, but another's (like Breno's) poor play is so obvious. The truth is they're both bad, and a lot of the on & off difficulties you're pointing to in the recent ground game are due to an inability to run behind Ferguson with anything resembling consistency. 

To the rest of it, I don't at all discount consistency having value. The OL plays as a unit, not as 5 individuals. But a poorly-playing individual hurts the unit and you don't bring back someone just for consistency-sake. The same person justifying his salary or extending him further also had his hair on fire when we let cut Faneca. THEN any penalty or poor play from a first year starter guard was supposedly so easy to identify. It's bullsh*t. Faneca wasn't too good for us in his last season here (statistically was the worst pass-blocking guard in the NFL), and was an outright failure for Arizona in his final NFL season before hanging it up. Always it is fear of worse, and their personal certainty of worse, with those who have their favorite players questioned. Meanwhile it is a recipe for never improving upon that favorite player and giving young players a chance to succeed. Meanwhile it didn't take half a season for Slauson to become a better and more consistent guard than Faneca was in his final NFL season. This further forces the team into signing and retaining players at high dollars that should be used to shore up other team weaknesses. Left to the devices of some, letting go of Faneca never would have happened, and we would have kept on throwing $8M/season at him instead of ~0.5M/season for Slauson and use the change on locking up a (then-excellent) Cromartie.

If Ferguson was $3-4M that would be one thing. But at a $9M salary with a $14M+ cap hit, it's stupid. He stops us from getting better at LT and he stops us from getting better at the position that would be the $ beneficiary of Brick's sizable cap allotment.  

I'm right with you here.... I have been pointing out Fergusons weaknesses his entire career I never viewed him as a top tier LT, not even close. Honestly I think the guy had one very good year and the rest was Meh to bad at this stage. He was never a run blocking LT and he never had that mean streak you look for in that aspect of the game. the Jets regularly ran to the Moore/Woody Side when we were a dominant running team and we could have been Epic if Ferguson was able to block at all. I also agree that 3 mil is a good number for him this year no way we should pay him 9 not even close. I hope you didn't take my post as me back dooring support for Brick because I'm the last person who would stick up for him for anything other than durability which is the one really good trait he has.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 hours ago, bitonti said:

the Jets drafted a Faneca replacement in 2009. They also drafted Vlad in 2010. That's two possible replacements, a 6th rounder and a 2nd rounder. 

 

The fact that you seem to just breeze by is the Jets haven't invested anything in replacing Brick. There is no replacement Brick on the roster, let alone two possible replacements. There is a way to replace Brick and it's either a very high draft pick or a multi-year process. They should begin the multi year process but in the meantime they don't have any alternatives. That's the problem. You want to replace something with nothing. 

They drafted Slauson in round 6. I'd hardly call that an investment. Teams draft permanent backups who they never realistically expect to start in round 6. If they were drafting a replacement they'd have taken one earlier.

I want to replace him with another player in the same way that we replaced Faneca with Slauson or in the same way that the Broncos were able to win a Super Bowl with their 2nd string LT. You're making this out like he's still an above average player. The downgrade from Ferguson to his backup wouldn't be nearly as steep as it would have been 5 years ago.

Back then you never, ever thought of Slauson as a replacement - or an investment in a replacement, or however you want it to be termed - for Faneca. You repeatedly called him a career backup and nothing more. Meanwhile he was fine by mid-season and is still starting now. A high-end guard? No. But more than adequate given the price differential.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, bitonti said:

it should also be noted that a release of Brick makes more sense after June 1 than before.

Wrong as usual.

If they keep him on the roster through the end of may he collects millions more this season in bonus money. 

What they could do is cut him right away and designate him as a post-June 1 cut so they don't pay him the bonus money. Not that it's really a big deal one way or the other. The cap is not a rigid yearly thing, and money from one year can always be moved to and from the next year. The 2016 money you think you save by cutting him early still hits the cap no matter how it's sliced. It comes off in 2016 or split between 2016-2017, but there's no avoiding the $5M in dead cap space. If they really suddenly find themselves in need of that last $2M or so they can restructure someone else to push their cap hit off a little bit. It's 6 in one and half a dozen in the other: neither way saves more cap space or necessarily makes any more sense.

The only thing that makes no sense whatsoever is paying Brick extra bonus money in the spring and then cutting him in June or during the summer, which is what you've outlined as a smart idea.

Love, 
Sperm

[bitonti]

16 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

They drafted Slauson in round 6. I'd hardly call that an investment. Teams draft permanent backups who they never realistically expect to start in round 6. If they were drafting a replacement they'd have taken one earlier.

I want to replace him with another player in the same way that we replaced Faneca with Slauson or in the same way that the Broncos were able to win a Super Bowl with their 2nd string LT. You're making this out like he's still an above average player. The downgrade from Ferguson to his backup wouldn't be nearly as steep as it would have been 5 years ago.

Back then you never, ever thought of Slauson as a replacement - or an investment in a replacement, or however you want it to be termed - for Faneca. You repeatedly called him a career backup and nothing more. Meanwhile he was fine by mid-season and is still starting now. A high-end guard? No. But more than adequate given the price differential.

 

you make valid points but they also drafted Vlad in the 2nd round in the same year. Between Slauson and Vlad they thought they had LG covered. Which is fine.

But there is no Slauson in this scenario. The vet player who they were bringing along just in case. Brick's Backup is Ijalana who is a free agent. 

For the Jets to replace Brick they need to draft a first round OT. And hope he's instant good. They don't have any alternatives. 

 

as for your "wrong again it's not really June 1 it's designated as June 1" bulls--t... and they call me pedantic. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On February 25, 2016 at 10:07 AM, bitonti said:

 

you make valid points but they also drafted Vlad in the 2nd round in the same year. Between Slauson and Vlad they thought they had LG covered. Which is fine.

But there is no Slauson in this scenario. The vet player who they were bringing along just in case. Brick's Backup is Ijalana who is a free agent. 

For the Jets to replace Brick they need to draft a first round OT. And hope he's instant good. They don't have any alternatives. 

 

as for your "wrong again it's not really June 1 it's designated as June 1" bulls--t... and they call me pedantic. 

Vlad was a project. They kept Faneca for as long as they could, to try to recoup a draft pick for him. No one even offered us a conditional 7th rounder for five years later. So we cut him. It shouldn't be hard to find a replacement as good as a raw/unready rookie before cutting Ferguson, or be optimistic that such a person is available.

You said it makes the most sense to keep him until June 1 and then cut him. That is the worst possible scenario of all. In your scenario we would pay him millions more in bonus money and then cut him. Not exactly to-may-to | to-mah-to scenario. My idea is smart and yours is dumb.  

 

[TuscanyTile2]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Vlad was a project. They kept Faneca for as long as they could, to try to recoup a draft pick for him. No one even offered us a conditional 7th rounder for five years later. So we cut him. It shouldn't be hard to find a replacement as good as a raw/unready rookie before cutting Ferguson, or be optimistic that such a person is available.

You said it makes the most sense to keep him until June 1 and then cut him. That is the worst possible scenario of all. In your scenario we would pay him millions more in bonus money and then cut him. Not exactly to-may-to | to-mah-to scenario. My idea is smart and yours is dumb.  

 

 

How do you really feel though?

[bitonti]

37 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Vlad was a project.  

 

Ok so they had a 3rd year player ready to start in Slauson and a 2nd round project in Vlad in case that didn't work out. That's a succession plan. 

The Jets do need to replace Brick but if it's going to be this year, they should have planned ahead.