The real orchestrator of this Jets wreck wont come out of hiding

[JiFtheOracle]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Players with "okay" as their upside can be found much later in the draft.

Oh boy...I tried to have this debate with him and 3 others.  I had to stop because I could feel my brains withering away.

[MaxAF]

I think there is a management flaw in that Bowles answers to Woody not Mac. Mac also answers to Woody. Mac and Bowles need to work together or Mac needs to hire the HC of his choice. Im pretty sure Bowles makes a team decisions independent of Mac. Remember Bowles was hired before Mac.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, gEYno said:

No, you judge his entire body of work, which overall, has not been exceptionally promising.  I used the first two rounds as an example because that is where you are expected to get your best players.

I don't know what the problem with Lee is.  I do know that he has not lived up to what you'd hope from a linebacker picked in his position.  Unquestionably, that could change, and the book isn't written on him.  But, regarding him, the book isn't starting off as strongly as you'd like.  I think he'll turn into an okay player, but you gotta get more out of that draft slot than okay.

As for Smith, he's barely played in two years, and when he has, hasn't even done the one thing he's supposed to do well, well.  I don't think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about him.  Fortunately, and as a plus for Macc, he's been replaced by Robbie Anderson, who, with a bit more strength and some coaching re: holding onto the ball, could be a nice player for us.  But, with Smith, you're talking about 2 years of 0 production, not just one.

Hack, yeah, we've all heard the redshirt thing.  But, you take those guys in the 5th round, not the second.  A team with this many holes can't invest valuable resources in a player who you're 2 years away from even giving meaningful reps to.  On top of that, Hack sucked in college, and he came in fourth place in a QB competition that included Fitz, Geno, and Petty, not exactly a promising start.  Frankly, I'll be a bit surprised if Hack ever actually does take a regular season snap, at least one that is in a meaningful game/situation, so maybe we'll never be able to evaluate him.

Agreed.  We don't know "for sure."  I'm not suggesting that we do.  But, we do see the state of the team, and these players, and for that, the GM bears significant responsibility.

It's a convenient position to take. Someone performs ok or even well initially, even before we know that initial play will last or get any better, then he gets credit. Someone doesn't perform initially, and he doesn't get blame. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, Sperm Edwards said:

It's a convenient position to take. Someone performs ok or even well initially, even before we know that initial play will last or get any better, then he gets credit. Someone doesn't perform initially, and he doesn't get blame. 

True. Happening with Dak Prescott this year. Last 3 games he has hit the wall

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, UnitedWhofans said:

But, that 2014 team only scored over 30 points once. This team did it twice.

In fact, the 2014 Jets and 2016 Jets have both scored 20 points+ 6 times.  Except this team has 2 games to go.

2016 Jets haven't been shut out. The 2014 team was.

While your stat suggests that the 2014 Jets were more consistent, the 2016 Jets are more explosive.

Another difference is the people doing it.

2014 Jets average age: 26.2

2016: 25.9 (And that includes older players coming off the books)

The 2014 Jets had Decker, Kerley and Harvin. Relatively old combined.

This team has Anderson, Enunwa, and Peake. Young players. More upside. 

They are not "my stats," they're just facts.  Facts, that unfortunately do not support your argument.  Also, 1 more game with 30 points and .3 years old is not statistically significant, so, once again, you've kind of been proven wrong by facts.

Unfortunately, the facts simply do not support what you want to believe.

[phill1c]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Every year is big for a GM, exponentially more so for the GM of losing franchises.  Thus far, Macc has not meaningfully improved the Jets, nor demonstrated that he is capable of doing so.

I totally disagree that he hasn't improved the Jets:

• The Jets were OLD at LB, now they are younger.
• The Jets had absolutely the worst and one of the oldest OL in football, now they are just 'inconsistent' and have young guys competing.
• The Jets had one of the worst WR corps in football, including the NCAAs, and now they have a surplus of good, young receivers.
• The Jets have a DL that, when healthy and rid of Richardson, has a plethora of talent on it.

No, that's not every whole plugged. But it's definitely better than the team was before he arrived.

[ZachEY]

8 minutes ago, phill1c said:

I totally disagree that he hasn't improved the Jets:

• The Jets were OLD at LB, now they are younger.
• The Jets had absolutely the worst and one of the oldest OL in football, now they are just 'inconsistent' and have young guys competing.
• The Jets had one of the worst WR corps in football, including the NCAAs and now they have a surplus of good, young receivers.
• The Jets have a DL that, when healthy and rid of Richardson, has a plethora of talent on it.

No, that's not every whole plugged. But it's definitely better than the team was before he arrived.

Some areas have improved, some have gotten worse.  The net seems to be about even.

[phill1c]

Just now, gEYno said:

Some areas have improved, some have gotten worse.  The net seems to be about even.

Please, enumerate...

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

I think we are too early to know how good or bad his drafts are, but teams take flyers on guys that can't play their first year all of the time.

I remember, I think it was the bills, drafted a guy in the first round that was injured and placed on IR for his first year. 

Maybe we drafted Hack too early; maybe we shouldn't have drafted him at all, but I don't think drafting a guy in the 2nd round that you know isn't going to play in the first year is as-and-in-itself a mistake. If we take the 'it takes 3 to 4 years' to evaluate a draft, then let's give Hack another year or two.

I am NOT saying that Mac is the GM we have needed; I am saying that so far he hasn't been soooo bad that we can't go forward with him. Next year, and the year after should determine whether or not we stay with Mac.

With Idzik, it didn't take long to know we didn't want him. I am not there with Mac yet, and so far I think he is doing a pretty good job. It is like Petty; I have seen growth, composure, and up and down execution. Unlike many QBs we have had not show this growth. So, for now I am optimistic; doesn't mean I am sold. He has a long way to go.

And I'm not saying it's imperative to fire him.  I'm saying that he hasn't really earned safety.

[CanadaSteve]

10 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

I'm sure he was on board. Doesn't make it the correct pick. And I see Lee as a solid contributor over the next several seasons. Doesn't make it the correct pick.  

I do not understand this line of thinking.

He is a solid contributor for several years, but he isn't the right pick?

Who would be?  Paxton Lynch?  What if Lee has a better career.  Is he still not the correct pick?  What makes a correct pick?  I would think, especially without the added hindsight of actually seeing how someone plays in the NFL, that if the player we pick plays 7+ solid seasons of Jet football, then its the right pick.

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Please, enumerate...

How's our secondary look?

[dbatesman]

3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Please, enumerate...

Literally all of the things that were problems when he got here are still problems now.

[phill1c]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

How's our secondary look?

Maybe it would look better with Skrine playing inside and, say, Milliner still on the team. Maybe they should have learned to play a zone. Maybe it would look better with a pass rush. IMO, it looks as bad as it does because it's coached poorly. There's more talent in that unit than what he inherited IMO.

But, wow, that's all you came up with?

[phill1c]

6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Literally all of the things that were problems when he got here are still problems now.

Reading problems?

WR

youth at LB

youth at OL

Rome was not built in a day.

[CrazyCarl40]

13 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

I do not understand this line of thinking.

He is a solid contributor for several years, but he isn't the right pick?

Who would be?  Paxton Lynch?  What if Lee has a better career.  Is he still not the correct pick?  What makes a correct pick?  I would think, especially without the added hindsight of actually seeing how someone plays in the NFL, that if the player we pick plays 7+ solid seasons of Jet football, then its the right pick.

It's not the right pick because Darron Lee plays a position that doesn't particular warrant a 1st round pick in today's NFL. Unless he becomes a perennial pro bowl player, there are guys just like him that can contribute for solid seasons in rounds that aren't the first.

[ZachEY]

12 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Maybe it would look better with Skrine playing inside and, say, Milliner still on the team. Maybe they should have learned to play a zone. Maybe it would look better with a pass rush. IMO, it looks as bad as it does because it's coached poorly. There's more talent in that unit than what he inherited IMO.

But, wow, that's all you came up with?

I didn't realize I was on the hook for an exhaustive list... And, if my one item was just dismissed as poor coaching, I have a sneaking suspicion how the others will go.

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

I didn't realize I was on the hook for an exhaustive list... And, if my one item was just dismissed as poor coaching, I have a sneaking suspicion how the others will go.

Your overall opinion was saying that the entire team was not improved. You're on the hook for supporting your opinion,And you mentioned the secondary, which, seems like one unit, 7 players out of 53. hardly the entire team.

But I agree that coaching isn't the extent of the issues with it.

[CrazyCarl40]

7 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Reading problems?

WR

youth at LB

youth at OL

Rome was not built in a day.

What youth at OL? Seriously. The Jets will go into the off-season with needs at LT, C, RG, and possibly RT. Wesley Johnson could be the guy at C, but he's been pedestrian at best. There are a few guys competing at RT but none of them are anything to write home about, aren't dominating enough to be more than JAGs.

[ZachEY]

11 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Your overall opinion was saying that the entire team was not improved. You're on the hook for supporting your opinion,And you mentioned the secondary, which, seems like one unit, 7 players out of 53. hardly the entire team.

But I agree that coaching isn't the extent of the issues with it.

My overall opinion was that while some places have improved, others have declined, and the net is about as bad a team as we had before.

[phill1c]

Just now, CrazyCarl40 said:

What youth at OL? Seriously. The Jets will go into the off-season with needs at LT, C, RG, and possibly RT. Wesley Johnson could be the guy at C, but he's been pedestrian at best. There are a few guys competing at RT but none of them are anything to write home about, aren't dominating enough to be more than JAGs.

Shell

Ijalani

Qvale

Johnson

These are all YOUNG OL. Moreover, the need at RG is to likely re-sign Winters. The notion that Johnson has been pedestrian seems overstated, simply because you're angry or trying to win an argument. Johnson, like the other YOUNG players has been inconsistent.

Your post seems hysterical. Your panties are way too tight.

[Brady's a catcher]

20 hours ago, phill1c said:

Some good points made here. Mostly because I've been saying this all season. Bowles doesn't do anything to win games. And often does things to lose them. Personally, I don't care if he's lost the respect of veterans. They really haven't earned their salaries, IMO. Guys like Marshall, who drops so many balls and almost NEVER actually sells out to catch passes. This one-armed bullsh!t really annoys me. There's a reason he's never been to the playoffs in over 10 seasons. He's not a team player!! Richardson?! What has he done to deserve all these accolades? The 'film' I've seen of him shows a guy who has stopped playing hard many games before this team was eliminated. And, the only time the Jets DL did anything was when he was on suspension (another selfish act). I have said Harris should be let go, unfortunately, because he just can't play the position anymore at the level the Jets need him to. Revis?! unbelievable how poorly he plays. the QBR is astronomical when a QB targets his receiver. I know he's lost a step, but, wow, it's embarrassing how pathetic he plays now.

Anyway, I am upset because the Jets actually have a little more talent than they had the last couple of years. But Bowles has squandered it.

Here's an example. The Jets have a 4th and 1 in Dolphins territory. Probably outside of makeable FG range, but a punt gets you little.

• They could punt it
• They could go for it.

Instead, they challenge the spot. and then, after that delay, they call a timeout, essentially wasting TWO timeouts. Then, on top of all that, they run into the line when they have one of the poorest run-blocking OLs and after the Dolphins have had the opportunity to set their defense, which has one of the best DLs.

A real coach would have told them to rush up to the line of scrimmage and FAKE going for it, hoping to draw the Dolphins offside, which they already had been called for TWICE. Then, if that didn't work, he would have called a timeout and FAKED running the ball into the line and run a play with an option OR thrown for it.

He really just appears in over his head.

Yup, was dickless. As the play developed I wanted to throw something. You have nothing to lose, call playaction, roll Petty out. What do you have to lose? Ugghh, ****in team.

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

My overall opinion was that while some places have improved, others have declined, and the net is about as bad a team as we had before.

And you mentioned the secondary ONLY. Seems like if you had more, you'd have mentioned it, cause, yeah, your defense of your argument seems weak.

[dbatesman]

10 minutes ago, phill1c said:

WR

What WR? Anderson looks good, but Smith is a washout and Jalin Marshall has more fumbles than positive plays. We'd better hope Enunwa keeps it up, because Marshall is done and Decker suffered two catastrophic injuries this season.

10 minutes ago, phill1c said:

youth at LB

Our old linebackers were old and terrible. Now they're young and terrible. Progress!

10 minutes ago, phill1c said:

youth at OL

Aside from Carpenter, the only youth on the OL worth a damn was brought in by Maccagnan's predecessor.

10 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Rome was not built in a day.

Maccagnan has spent a ton of money on a secondary that's every bit as bad as the one he inherited from Idzik, we have zero credible edge rushers on the roster, and we're as far from a franchise QB as we've ever been. How many days until any of that stuff gets fixed?

[dbatesman]

3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Shell

Ijalani

Qvale

Johnson

These are all YOUNG OL. Moreover, the need at RG is to likely re-sign Winters. The notion that Johnson has been pedestrian seems overstated, simply because you're angry or trying to win an argument. Johnson, like the other YOUNG players has been inconsistent.

Your post seems hysterical. Your panties are way too tight.

All of those guys save Shell were brought in by Idzik.

[ZachEY]

8 minutes ago, phill1c said:

And you mentioned the secondary ONLY. Seems like if you had more, you'd have mentioned it, cause, yeah, your defense of your argument seems weak.

This secondary, as it's currently constructed, is bad enough to tank the whole defense, as we've seen.

Also, the offensive line did not get better, nor did the linebackers, though, they did get younger.

WR is kind of better, I give you that.

And, if possible, we're in worse shape QB wise than we were before Macc showed up. 

[NoBowles]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

All of those guys save Shell were brought in by Idzik.

Holy hell dude, you really need to let the whole Idzik thing go. You went out on a limb, you were wrong, let it go, move on. You only have to wear the dunce hat for one more season, let it go brother, let it go.

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Shell

Ijalani

Qvale

Johnson

These are all YOUNG OL. Moreover, the need at RG is to likely re-sign Winters. The notion that Johnson has been pedestrian seems overstated, simply because you're angry or trying to win an argument. Johnson, like the other YOUNG players has been inconsistent.

Your post seems hysterical. Your panties are way too tight.

Winters

Aboushi

Campbell

 Dozier

YOUNG does not mean GOOD or even mildly capable.  Also, Ijalana, Johnson and Qvale were all on the team prior to Maccagnan's arrival.

[phill1c]

2 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Maccagnan has spent a ton of money on a secondary that's every bit as bad as the one he inherited from Idzik, we have zero credible edge rushers on the roster, and we're as far from a franchise QB as we've ever been. How many days until any of that stuff gets fixed?

Probably not the 45 years you're going to claim to have been waiting.

I think the overall talent on the roster has improved under his watch. and I've mentioned why in several posts. Can I sit here and gloat at 4-10? no I can't. But at this point, it feels like mostly just piling on because of the record, which, IMO, could be significantly better with better in-game management.

[CrazyCarl40]

Just now, phill1c said:

Shell

Ijalani

Qvale

Johnson

These are all YOUNG OL. Moreover, the need at RG is to likely re-sign Winters. The notion that Johnson has been pedestrian seems overstated, simply because you're angry or trying to win an argument. Johnson, like the other YOUNG players has been inconsistent.

Your post seems hysterical. Your panties are way too tight.

Neither Ijalana or Qvale stood out at RT and split time before both lost their jobs to Breno. Ijalana is a free agent after the year.

Haven't seen enough of Shell, but he did okay on Saturday. He also got Petty injured in the preseason.

Johnson has been league average at best.

Winters will get a big contract for multiple years elsewhere.

Also, you can just reply to a post without insulting someone you know. Or maybe you don't. Now you do.

[phill1c]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

This secondary, as it's currently constructed, is bad enough to tank the whole defense, as we've seen.

Also, the offensive line did not get better, nor did the linebackers, though, they did get younger.

WR is kind of better, I give you that.

And, if possible, we're in worse shape QB wise than we were before Macc showed up. 

Kind of better?! ok...

I think the LBs are better AND YOUNGER, so with a ceiling they didn't have before.

And, really, if you think the secondary tanked the defense, well, clearly you weren't watching the 7 sacks total DL, the one with 4 freaking 1st-rounders on it.

[phill1c]

Just now, CrazyCarl40 said:

Neither Ijalana or Qvale stood out at RT and split time before both lost their jobs to Breno. Ijalana is a free agent after the year.

Haven't seen enough of Shell, but he did okay on Saturday. He also got Petty injured in the preseason.

Johnson has been league average at best.

Winters will get a big contract for multiple years elsewhere.

Also, you can just reply to a post without insulting someone you know. Or maybe you don't. Now you do.

Sorry for the insult. But if you had responded with the substance you did just now, well, you wouldn't have sounded so hysterical.

Free agents can be signed, or I guess they can't because it doesn't fit your argument. "winters will get a big contract for multiple years elsewhere..." Why? Last time I checked, he hasn't been fielding offers from playoff teams. Johnson, in his first career starts has been league average. So, we can't expect ANY improvement?! Shell got Petty injured? Who got Sanchez injured. Who injured Romo? It's a ludicrous judgement.

[phill1c]

8 minutes ago, gEYno said:

And, if possible, we're in worse shape QB wise than we were before Macc showed up.

Due to injury and an irrational hate of Geno Smith. Not really better or worse...better, because we don't have Fitzpatrick to foolishly rely on.

The performance has been worse. The talent, IMO, has been improved.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Reading problems?

WR

youth at LB

youth at OL

Rome was not built in a day.

A day? He's entering his 3rd year as GM, not his 2nd day.

"Youth" at LB or OL is not an attribute in and of itself. Demario Davis had youth. He inherited Winters and his youth, and he's a UFA in March so as of today he's not on the 2017 Jets. Ijalana is also a UFA in 2017. Wesley Johnson is also a UFA in 2017 so, like Winters, he's not on the 2017 Jets any more than he's on the 2017 Rams. As of today, the starting C on the 2017 Jets is the $9M Mangold; the starting LT is the $10M Clady; the starting RT is the $5M Giacomini; we have no RG. Carpenter turns 28 next year, so he represents the only under-contract, "youth" on the 2017 Jets' starting OL. 30-something David Harris is still starting at ILB until further notice.

He inherited the youthful Enunwa, and Decker at 28 was plenty youthful for an inherited veteran WR (not to mention locked up for the next 4 seasons at well under $10M per). 

[phill1c]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

As of today, the starting C on the 2017 Jets is the $9M Mangold; the starting LT is the $10M Clady; the starting RT is the $5M Giacomini

Actually, NONE of those players started the last game, so, really, hard to say who the starters are for 2017, especially given their contract status.

Seems like you're grasping at straws when there are better arguments to make. Like the one you made below

[Sperm Edwards]

Now do:

1. Starting QB ($$$$$ position)
2. Starting LT ($$$$ position)
3. Starting outside pass rusher, ($$$$ position)
4. Starting outside CB1 ($$$$ position)
5. Starting outside CB2 ($$$-$$$$ position)
6. Starting RT ($$$ position). MM won't go into the season just banking on Shell.
7. Starting FS ($$$ whether or not they cut Gilchrist and his $6M unguaranteed salary)
8. Starting RG ($$$ Winters is so far unsigned for 2017)
9. Starting TE (Sefarian-Jenkins? Lol.)
10. Also what about "youth" at RB, the ultimate young man's NFL position, as Forte is demonstrating? We may have the most expensive RB corps in the NFL next year, even if we don't add anybody.
11. NB is just ok and carries an $8.5M cap number.

Also I'd note that after just year 1 of the much-celebrated trade for Marshall, most Jets fans now seem ready to dump him. The above doesn't even get into the many bad contracts he's signed, nor the holding of 3 starting DE-DTs for 2 starting positions instead of trading one of them to add a position of actual need when he had the chance. 

I don't see what it is that Maccagnan has done in 2 years that cause people to still claim he's done a good job. He's added a few good "keeper" level starters in 2 years. BFD; even bad GMs do that, and few of them begin their job with a #6 overall pick and $50M+/yr in cap space.