What is the Jets draft philosophy?

[derp]

Maccagnan seems to draft without considering fit with current personnel. Which is either the result of confidence in his long-term job security, or a flaw.

Regardless, I think it ends up making Bowles look bad. Not that I think Bowles is Vince Lombardi, but it's tougher to coach with mismatched players. And I'd be surprised if whoever in ownership is making these decisions with Woody off on the other side of the pond is able to see that.

Also seems like he goes into things with a plan, but rather than sticking to it he'll change the plan on the fly when things aren't going as expected. But that's a bit more of a FA/extension/trade observation than it is draft.

[Beerfish]

5 minutes ago, derp said:

Maccagnan seems to draft without considering fit with current personnel. Which is either the result of confidence in his long-term job security, or a flaw.

Regardless, I think it ends up making Bowles look bad. Not that I think Bowles is Vince Lombardi, but it's tougher to coach with mismatched players. And I'd be surprised if whoever in ownership is making these decisions with Woody off on the other side of the pond is able to see that.

Also seems like he goes into things with a plan, but rather than sticking to it he'll change the plan on the fly when things aren't going as expected. But that's a bit more of a FA/extension/trade observation than it is draft.

I think you have it 100% backwards, 180 degrees.

The Gm is drafting players that should fit in a scheme, the coach has no scheme, he is one of these 'I am a hybrid coach!' wizards.  He has no clue if his D is 3-4 or 4-3, Mac has drafted as if the team is 3-4.  It is the coach that has no clue how to use the players he is being provided with.

[#27TheDominator]

14 minutes ago, JiF said:

Kerley was in the dog house, Shaq Evans lol, and Enunwa was a relatively unknown.  The rest of those guy were all possession receivers.  They drafted Smith because we supposed to be the speed guy that they didnt have. 

I think it's easy to see that Mac outside of one no brainer pick, drafts solely on need to the point where he will reach and take non-premium positions in the 1st round or QB's in the 2nd that could have been hand in the 7th.

I don't see why you are laughing at Shaq Evans.  Sure he seems a bust now, I think he is on the Cowboys practice squad, but if they didn't know Enunwa was ready to step up, then they should have thought Shaq Evans might.  He was a big school 4th with great numbers that missed his rookie season with injuries.  Kerley wasn't in the doghouse yet.  Kerley went in the doghouse when Enunwa took his spot away.  I understand the desire for a speed WR, but that is not a true need and there was plenty of time left to get someone.  They didn't trade for DeVier Posey because they felt they filled their #3 WR role with Smith.  IMO they were just trying to add talent.  All the stretch the field, Geno has a deep arm bullsh*t came from the boards. For that matter, they still had Owusu and Walt Powell.  I know those are borderline roster guys, but we are dealing with a fight for #3 WR. 

12 minutes ago, derp said:

Maccagnan seems to draft without considering fit with current personnel. Which is either the result of confidence in his long-term job security, or a flaw.

Regardless, I think it ends up making Bowles look bad. Not that I think Bowles is Vince Lombardi, but it's tougher to coach with mismatched players. And I'd be surprised if whoever in ownership is making these decisions with Woody off on the other side of the pond is able to see that.

Also seems like he goes into things with a plan, but rather than sticking to it he'll change the plan on the fly when things aren't going as expected. But that's a bit more of a FA/extension/trade observation than it is draft.

Part of the point of my thread is that I think they are drafting athletes.  It takes some time to gel, but it has worked well for the Seahawks.  Carroll's first year there the D actually got worse, but they improved dramatically into the Legion of Boom.  I wouldn't say that he isn't drafting to fit Bowles "system"  I would admit that Williams probably did not add much for Bowles, but Lee seems like a dedicated Bowles pick to play the hybrid Deone Bucannon S/LB role.  

[Dcat]

22 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Funny, my impression is, outside of the Leonard Williams pick, he drafts for need in basically every circumstance. I think that first pick, with its unique situation, has given him the undue reputation of being a total best player available drafter ever since. Literally every draft pick he's made since then was a hole-filler.

Also there's no evidence that the group of players listed are any more or less versatile than their peers drafted at the same positions. You could make the lone argument for Lee, but while Lee could be seen as versatile by some, he could equally be seen as a man without a true position by others. 

when you have needs in virtually every position, yeah... it will appear like he is drafting for need. But Mac has publicly stated his draft philosophy a number of times.  BPA early, more need in mid to late rounds.  Although looking at the 2nd rounders, one could argue there was need based decisions there too.  But the FACT that the Jets had needs almost everywhere allows for the distorted view that Mac primarily drafts for need.  

Newsflash:  It's going to appear the exact same after the 2017 draft.  There are very few positions where we don't have a need. So I'm ready for everyone to shout that Mac drafts for need over BPA during after the draft.

[Dcat]

21 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Jenkins was a clear need pick. He had just decided to not-up starter Calvin Pace the month prior. The only other OLB they had remaining was Mauldin, and it's looking clear that, during/after his rookie season, they weren't as high on his future potential as a full-time starter. The team badly needed two OLBers. If Jenkins pans out as hoped, they still need one.

If he took a CB instead of Devon Smith, as the Giants did, then it's easier to say that. If he'd pulled the trade to move up for Tunsil, despite trading for Clady a few weeks earlier, then you could say that. If he'd taken a RB anywhere, in either draft, then you could say that as well.

I know we all joke about it, but every position was not a need. 

1. Tunsil was regarded by many as a future guard, not Tackle.  Sure his position was listed as OT but there were scouts and drft moguls that had expressed reservations about him playing OT  and the Dolphins used him at G.  In addition, the whole video thing of his smoking dope in the gas mask altered round 1 of the draft with respect to him.  

2. When you say "Jenkins was a clear need pick", again you are assuming. We had needs almost everywhere and a big one at OLB.  Perhaps Jenkins was BPA in Mac's chart at the time.  I happen to like the pick now a lot.  He could have picked an OLB earlier but waited.  To me that doesn't scream "need pick" but to you it does.  It's all a matter of perspective and opinion.

3. and yes, not "every" position was in need, but a disturbing majority of positions did.  

In reality, after round 1, I think Mac blends need and BPA for every remaining pick.  

[Dcat]

21 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I sat right there in the audience while they admitted the reason they took Lee over other prospects was because they felt he'd contribute as a rookie. So it's fair game.

Geez, except for QB position, every GM says that about early round picks.  

[PepPep]

21 hours ago, chirorob said:

Maybe, there are a lot of reports that he tried to trade up in the 1st round last year to take the tackle that went to Miami.

Yep. I have heard those reports and am not at all surprised. But I believe he only did that once Tunsil started to slide. Tunsil was pretty much the consensus #1 pick until a tape emerged of him with a gas mask bong. As he started to slide, Macc recognized that a top prospect could be available outside of the top 10, who happens to fill a need. So it kind of goes back to my first observation- that he goes for BPA. JMHO.

If you look at his draft picks. He took both Harrison and Shell in the fifth. No other O-linemen were drafted by Macc.

But again, there is little to work with b/.c he only had 2 drafts so far. With a clear need at both tackle positions, let's see what Macc does in FA and the draft this year. It should be telling.   

[Dcat]

20 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I think the Jets drafting strategy goes by round.

First Round: The Jets seem to have had a radically strict BAP strategy for the past 10 drafts, which is probably why we have only drafted DBs and DL in the first.

You have to put an asterisk next to the last 10 years of 1st round pick philosophy.  There is 1st round BPA (Mac philosophy) and there is 1st round need.  But there was also something unique to the NY Jets while Rex was here: "1st round who does Rex love:  Rex had decided Coples would be his pick if available at the combine and even told him so.    Here's how I see the last decade of 1st rounders:  (Again this all my opinion)

2006: Brick and Mangold:  These guys were both highly rated and I'm thinking these were BPA picks even though we needed a tackle.

2007: Revis:  We traded away picks to move up and grab him before the Steelers were going to.  BPA for sure.

2008: Gholston and Keller: ugh.  what a disaster.  Edge rusher and TE were needs and w/respect to TE, I believe we definitely reached and drafted for need..  Gholston was highly rated even though there were doubters... so it's hard to say whether it was one or the other of need/BPA.  Probably both.

2009: Sanchez: A Rex Ryan reach.  The only offensive player drafted 1st under Rex's regime because he fell in love with him after he and Tanny sat on a California high school bench and watched toss to high school kids.  Our very 1st "Rex Ryan" pick, which is neither need nor BPA philosophy... just who Rex happened to have a man-crush on.

2010: Kyle Wilson: Our next "Rex Ryan has a hard on for the guy" pick.  Neither BPA nor urgent need compared to the entire list of needs then.  That's 2 in a row where Rex was given his personal choice and we ignored the most urgent needs and ignored BPA as well.  Friggin' Rex!

2011: Wilk: Rex again forced defense when the most urgent needs were offense.  BPA perhaps, but definitley a Rex type pick

2012: Coples: Not need based and certainly not BPA.  Just another example of GM catering to Rex's 1st round personal fav.  Rex promised Coples way ahead of the draft that he would be the pick.  Rex was in love with this guy for whatever stupid Rex reason.  Rex was terrible (just like Parcells) at picking any groceries.

2013: Milliner and Sheldon: we lost Revis to FA.  Milliner drafted for need.  Sheldon looked like a BPA there.  A combo of both strategies but again Rex loves those DL over any other position.  I wonder what would have been the pick instead of Sheldon if Rex was not involved..

2014: Pryor: Whose fault is this?  Rex or Idsuck?  Once again I think that the deference given to Rex by each of his GMs allowed Rex to pick what he believed to be the best thumper at safety in the draft.  In an era where thumpers are losing value and coverage is way more important.  Rex pick for sure because it is so 1970's of a pick.  Another Rex driven, illogical pick.  

I think 2015 and 2016 (Leo and Lee) were BPA picks entirely (even if Mac is wrong about Lee, he was highly rated and I think Mac and Bowles felt he was the BPA there.)

[chirorob]

17 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Yep. I have heard those reports and am not at all surprised. But I believe he only did that once Tunsil started to slide. Tunsil was pretty much the consensus #1 pick until a tape emerged of him with a gas mask bong. As he started to slide, Macc recognized that a top prospect could be available outside of the top 10, who happens to fill a need. So it kind of goes back to my first observation- that he goes for BPA. JMHO.

If you look at his draft picks. He took both Harrison and Shell in the fifth. No other O-linemen were drafted by Macc.

But again, there is little to work with b/.c he only had 2 drafts so far. With a clear need at both tackle positions, let's see what Macc does in FA and the draft this year. It should be telling.   

I think that's the biggest thing right there.   He probably won't go O Line in the 1st this year either unless he trades back, as there is no one worth taking at 6.

[kelly]

22 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Take a corner or dline in rnd 1, take a real crappy player in rnd 2, throw darts for rnds 3-7.

cool !

 

 

cheers ~ ~ 

[nyjbuddy]

Its hard to determine draft philosophy and it may not be as simple as BPA or drafting for need.  It is hard to determine if they were drafting best player available without knowing who exactly was on their board.  As a fan, all we can do is speculate on trends and scan interviews for insight into their picks.  There is a lot more than evaluating talent then just their athletic ability or production in college.  Every scout has their list of things that they use to evaluate a player and each attribute on the list is weighted differently.  These factors determine the player's grade and will eventually determine what the draft board looks like.  What maybe more informative is to try to understand the team's player evaluations.  Identifying trends in player's attributes may provide better insight into what are the characteristics of the players that are weighted more than others.  This will provide a better picture of what their draft board may look like and in turn shed more light on if the draft philosophy is best player available or if they are drafting for need.

For example, after last year's draft Maccagnan and Bowles were interviewed about the Lee pick.  They said they liked his athleticism, speed and character.  His size was not a concern as they feel the offenses in the league are becoming more spread out.  In this case, they felt that his athleticism and character pushed his grade higher than the concern for his size dropped it; hence having him high on their board.  

Furthermore, this is not limited to the evaluation of just drafted players.  By looking at the free agents they sign and the players they cut, we get to see a more complete picture of their player evaluation.  Lets take for example this off season with the possibility of keeping or cutting Decker and/or Marshall.  If they cut Decker many will say that the fact he could never stay healthy is too high of a risk compared to his talent.  If Marshall is cut, perhaps it is his attitude during the season and his affect on the locker room that is the cause for release.  If these were the reasons for their departure, then during the draft they may remove players or downgrade players that fit these profiles (i.e. a player with a history of injuries that prevented him from playing or a player that in the interviews has a me attitude rather than a team attitude).

[Smashmouth]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I was purely discussing draft philosophy.  What the team is looking for in the draft.  Developing players is a whole 'nother issue.  The Pats are a unique situation, but looking at the Steelers, they have plenty of guys people might look at as busts initially that step in.   I loved Bud Dupree in the draft, but he didn't do much at first.  He has slowly started rolling.  Sure they have been riding Harrison and Timmons (a high 1st) a long time, but they also drafted Jarvis Jones, Dupree and Shazier in the first.  Imagine Jets fans looking at the team continuing to draft LB/EDGE guys all that time. 

I don't agree that best available goes away in the later rounds.  In fact, I think it is more important.  Rating players is harder?  That is their job.  I think fit may become a bit more important because these guys will not have as much polish, but you need to pick the guy that you think will make some impact, not just point at your board and say "Oh, we have a slot for a backup tackle, let's draft one!"

I hear ya... I know what you were focusing on, but when talking about drafting philosophy you must also talk about coaching philosophy as well and that's why I brought it up. I mean if your running a 3-4 or a 4-3 things change if your running a ball control offense or a hurry up type offense you have to draft accordingly in both instances. Like the Dopey Jets running a 3-4 yet drafting what amounts to 4 Defensive tackles in 6 years then allowing probably the best NT in the NFL go to keep one of those tackles.

That being said IMHO when talking about drafting philosophy I would much rather see a focus on proven football players rather than pure athletes. For instance when I watched Gholston play in college I saw tendencies in the guy that were just not impressive from a football stand point, you could see the guy just didn't not like to mix it up in traffic at all. Gholston was not going to dive into a pile of running players to make a tackle he was a one trick college pony and he could not even do that well in the NFL. All he wanted to do was line up and rush the passer and that translated fine in college. Diving to make a play rushing a QB is one thing playing in the traffic at the point of attack was just not going to happen with him and that seemed obvious to a lot of people yet most were in love with his biceps and speed rather than if the guy was an actual football player.

So an example is do you want the Burner at WR or do you want the guy who runs a 4.6 yet plays fast and runs great routes and is not afraid to go up for the ball in harms way. I would go for the smart polished football players before I would go for the athlete

So theres a lot that actually goes into philosophy and a good GM should adjust accordingly. I think there are a lot of really bad GM's in the NFL and it shows not sure Macc is one of them I think hes made some gaffs but somehow this organization felt it was a win now situation without a real solid QB

[#27TheDominator]

REX RYAN WAS NOT THE ******* GM.  He did not make those picks.  I'm sure he had input, but the idea he was overruling the draft room is laughable, particularly with Idzik who has basically stated he was trying to get Rex fired.  Yes, Rex said he loved Coples, yes Rex said he preferred Pryor to Clinton-Dix.  Show me the guy that Rex has on the team that he doesn't talk up.  The Jets were widely reported to be in love with Bruce Irvin.  IIRC. when Rex made the comments about Coples it was in response to people asking how upset he was about Irvin going one pick early.  Likewise the Pryor chatter.  Rex always talks up his guys.  Everybody on the board knows the guy is full of sh*t, yet you repeatedly quote him talking about his players like it is meaningful. It is worse than quoting Chuckie Gruden who loves everybody.

[Dcat]

10 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

REX RYAN WAS NOT THE ******* GM.  He did not make those picks.  I'm sure he had input, but the idea he was overruling the draft room is laughable, particularly with Idzik who has basically stated he was trying to get Rex fired.  Yes, Rex said he loved Coples, yes Rex said he preferred Pryor to Clinton-Dix.  Show me the guy that Rex has on the team that he doesn't talk up.  The Jets were widely reported to be in love with Bruce Irvin.  IIRC. when Rex made the comments about Coples it was in response to people asking how upset he was about Irvin going one pick early.  Likewise the Pryor chatter.  Rex always talks up his guys.  Everybody on the board knows the guy is full of sh*t, yet you repeatedly quote him talking about his players like it is meaningful. It is worse than quoting Chuckie Gruden who loves everybody.

yes he did.  Basically... I beleive (meaning this is opinion, not fact, but I believe it to be true) it was Woody that instructed Tanny and Idsuck to defer to Rex for all 1st round picks.  Rex and Tanny picked Sanchez together while watching him throw to teenagers, but all those terrible defensive picks (Coples, Pryor, etc.) were Rex's that Tanny/Idzik were probably forced/sgtrongly urged to pick.  Rex picked Sanchez on a California high school field.  Rex picked Coples at the combine.  Who the heck knows where Rex fell in love with Kyle Wilson.  Rex dictated 1st rounders. It's as plain as the nose on your face.  And that was OK with Woody.  Do you really think that Tannenbaum and Idzick would pick 6 out of 7 1st rounders on defense?  Come on man.. stop deluding yourself.  

1st round picks under Rex:

Offense (1): Mark Sanchez (Rex/Tanny pick.  Rex fell in love with him and was dead set on him.

Defense (6): Kyle Wilson, Mohammed Wilkerson, Quinton Coples, Dee Milliner, Sheldon Richardson, Calvin Pryor.

1 offensive pick and SIX defensive picks and you don't think that was all Rex?  LOL.  Man, I got this bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Same sh!t in Buffalo.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, Dcat said:

yes he did.  Basically... I beleive it was Woody that told Tanny and Idsuck to defer to Rex for all 1st round picks.  Rex and Tanny picked Sanchez, but all those terrible defensive picks (Coples, Pryor, etc.) were Rex's that Tanny/Idzik were probably forced to pick.  Rex picked Sanchez on a California high school field.  Rex picked Coples at the combine.  Who the heck knows where Rex fell in love with Kyle Wilson.  Rex dictated 1st rounders.  And that was OK with Woody.  Do you really think that Tannenbaum and Idzick would pick 7/8 1st rounders on defense?  Come on man.. stop deluding yourself.  

1st round picks under Rex:

Offense: Mark Sanchez (Rex/Tanny pick.  Rex fell in love with him and was dead set on him.

Defense: Kyle Wilson, Mohammed Wilkerson, Quinton Coples, Dee Milliner, Sheldon Richardson, Calvin Pryor.

1 offensive pick and SIX defensive picks and you don't think that was all Rex?  LOL.  Man, I got this bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Same sh!t in Buffalo.

Source? 

I don't think it was all Rex because it wasn't.  IMO that whole post is made up bullsh*t. Your proof that the picks were all Rex is that they were on D?  Tannenbaum had gone D in 2008 with Gholston and 2007 with a hefty trade up for Revis.  He also traded up in the 2nd for Harris.  I guess your big argument is 2006 and the Keller trade up.  I am sure Rex influenced them requesting D, but the idea that Rex chose Milliner and Wilson is laughable.  Rex did not like or want Milliner.  He hated that pick.  Same with Coples.  I know Rex worked out Coples and supposedly liked him, but there are a million reports that the Jets preferred Irvin.  

What I read was that Rex got one pick a year.  John Conner, Scotty McKnight and Tajh Boyd are the ones I know he claimed.

[Dcat]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Source? 

I don't think it was all Rex because it wasn't.  IMO that whole post is made up bullsh*t. Your proof that the picks were all Rex is that they were on D?  Tannenbaum had gone D in 2008 with Gholston and 2007 with a hefty trade up for Revis.  He also traded up in the 2nd for Harris.  I guess your big argument is 2006 and the Keller trade up.  I am sure Rex influenced them requesting D, but the idea that Rex chose Milliner and Wilson is laughable.  Rex did not like or want Milliner.  He hated that pick.  Same with Coples.  I know Rex worked out Coples and supposedly liked him, but there are a million reports that the Jets preferred Irvin.  

What I read was that Rex got one pick a year.  John Conner, Scotty McKnight and Tajh Boyd are the ones I know he claimed.

I told you in my post that it was my opinion and I STAND BY IT.  No GM in his right mind spends 6 out of 7 1st round picks on defense over a 6 year period unless he is being coerced. Common sense.  I know people here love Rex and will defend his stupidity to the death... that's fine.  But those picks were severely Rex influenced to the point of absurdity.  The five 1st round picks immediately prior to Rex had 3 offense and 2 defense.  Then Rex arrives, personally decides Sanchez is the man without enough juice to really support that idea followed by 6 defensive 1st round picks in a row.  Come on dude.  No way does a GM do that.  Unless he has to. Anyway, its moot now.  All water under the bridge (or better, feces flushed down the toilet).

[#27TheDominator]

Rex Ryan, evil genius! 

Rex did plenty wrong, but I'm not sure why we have to add bad GM to his list of mistakes.  Idzik was specifically brought in to be the adult.  Don't you remember Rex going ballistic when Idzik failed to sign a CB in 2014?  When he let Rodgers-Cromartie leave without a contract, Rex was supposedly flipping tables.  I guess that was coach Rex being angry at the failures of GM Rex?

[Dcat]

16 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Rex Ryan, evil genius! 

Rex did plenty wrong, but I'm not sure why we have to add bad GM to his list of mistakes.  Idzik was specifically brought in to be the adult.  Don't you remember Rex going ballistic when Idzik failed to sign a CB in 2014?  When he let Rodgers-Cromartie leave without a contract, Rex was supposedly flipping tables.  I guess that was coach Rex being angry at the failures of GM Rex?

never said Rex had his hands in spending money in free agency.  That's a whole different kettle of fish from 1st round draft picks.  Free agency involves money and cap consequences. The draft does not.  Look, this is an old, moot revival of an argument that I stand by.  The litany of defensive 1st round picks + Sanchez screams Rex. He had extreme authority for 1st round picks.  Or is it just coincidence that Tanny and Idzkik picked 6 out of 7 defensive players in their 1st round picks + Sanchez?  And Sanchez was absolutely Rex's fancy. I remember it well.  He was so enthusiastic about Sanchez that Tanny orchestrated a very good trade up with Mangini and Cleveland for it.   so make it 7 out of 7 Rex dictated 1st round picks.   

There is no smoking gun or written proof of this.  So you and I will have to leave it at that.  If you want to believe that Rex didn't crap the bed by messing up 6 years of 1st round picks, so be it.  Lay it all on Tanny and Idzick if it reinforces the Rex man-love around these parts.  

Rex.  What a doofus at every level of team management.  

[JiFtheOracle]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I don't see why you are laughing at Shaq Evans.  Sure he seems a bust now, I think he is on the Cowboys practice squad, but if they didn't know Enunwa was ready to step up, then they should have thought Shaq Evans might.  He was a big school 4th with great numbers that missed his rookie season with injuries.  Kerley wasn't in the doghouse yet.  Kerley went in the doghouse when Enunwa took his spot away.  I understand the desire for a speed WR, but that is not a true need and there was plenty of time left to get someone.  They didn't trade for DeVier Posey because they felt they filled their #3 WR role with Smith.  IMO they were just trying to add talent.  All the stretch the field, Geno has a deep arm bullsh*t came from the boards. For that matter, they still had Owusu and Walt Powell.  I know those are borderline roster guys, but we are dealing with a fight for #3 WR. 

 

Why is Shaq Evans a lol?  because he's a terrible Football player that apparently couldnt catch a cold and nobody in the building believed in him.  Nobody you mentioned gave them any confidence they had anything because they drafted and Devin Smith and where are those players now?  This isnt trivial.  They felt WR was a need, clearly.

[#27TheDominator]

7 minutes ago, Dcat said:

never said Rex had his hands in spending money in free agency.  That's a whole differen't kettle of fish from 1st round draft picks.  Free agency involves money and cap consequences.J The draft does not.  Look, this is an old, moot revival of an argument that I stand by.  The litany of defensive 1st round picks + Sanchez screams Rex. He had extreme authority for 1st round picks.  Or is it just coincidence that Tanny and Idzkik picked 6 out of 7 defensive players in their 1st round picks + Sanchez?  And Sanchez was absolutely Rex's fancy. I remember it well.  He was so enthusiastic about Sanchez that Tanny orchestrated a very good trade up with Mangini and Cleveland for it.   so make it 7 out of 7 Rex dictated 1st round picks.   

There is no smoking gun or written proof of this.  So you and I will have to leave it at that.  If you want to believe that Rex didn't crap the bed by messing up 6 years of 1st round picks, so be it.  Lay it all on Tanny and Idzick if it reinforces the Rex man-love around these parts.  

Rex.  What a doofus at every level of team management.  

Rex Ryan coerces the GM and forces him to pick defense, and players handpicked by Rex.   Free agency, Rex has no pull and gets to roll into a season with Dimitri Patterson the only acquisition.  Seriously?  Keep telling me it is common sense. 

6 minutes ago, JiF said:

Why is Shaq Evans a lol?  because he's a terrible Football player that apparently couldnt catch a cold and nobody in the building believed in him.  Nobody you mentioned gave them any confidence they had anything because they drafted and Devin Smith and where are those players now?  This isnt trivial.  They felt WR was a need, clearly.

I don't dispute why you are laughing at Evans.  My point was, if they knew Shaq Evans sucked, they should have known Enunwa had something.  I agree that WR was a need, but that is why they got Marshall. After that it was way down the list of actual needs.  Well below QB, TE, G, OLB, etc.   

[Dcat]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Rex Ryan coerces the GM and forces him to pick defense, and players handpicked by Rex.   Free agency, Rex has no pull and gets to roll into a season with Dimitri Patterson the only acquisition.  Seriously?  Keep telling me it is common sense. 

It is.  And I never said that Rex had "no pull" with FA. Don't exaggerate what people say. He did.  But with 1st round picks, his choice was ALWAYS the pick no matter what.  That much is obvious from the facts.  Tanny had a fairly even history of offense/defense for 1st rounders, then Woody adopts Rex as his long lost son and the 1st round became Rex's playground.  Before Rex, Tanny picked 3 offense and two defense in the 1st round.  

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, Dcat said:

It is.  And I never said that Rex had "no pull" with FA. Don't exaggerate what people say. He did.  But with 1st round picks, his choice was ALWAYS the pick no matter what.  That much is obvious from the facts.  Tanny had a fairly even history of offense/defense for 1st rounders, then Woody adopts Rex as his long lost son and the 1st round became Rex's playground.  Before Rex, Tanny picked 3 offense and two defense in the 1st round.  

Dmitri Patterson = no pull.  

[JiFtheOracle]

7 minutes ago, Dcat said:

It is.  And I never said that Rex had "no pull" with FA. Don't exaggerate what people say. He did.  But with 1st round picks, his choice was ALWAYS the pick no matter what.  That much is obvious from the facts.  Tanny had a fairly even history of offense/defense for 1st rounders, then Woody adopts Rex as his long lost son and the 1st round became Rex's playground.  Before Rex, Tanny picked 3 offense and two defense in the 1st round.  

FWIW - I remember them specifically saying that Rex had 1 pick each draft when Tanny was here and it wasnt the first rounders.   And if I'm not mistaken it was Greene, Connor, McKnight, Ganaway or something like that.  And I remember him specifically saying Stephen Hill was all Tanny.  Rex's first draft was all offense and of his first 13 picks as a head coach, 11 were offense. 

 

[thadude]

Round 1: Mediocre DB

Round 2: Poop

[thadude]

6 minutes ago, JiF said:

FWIW - I remember them specifically saying that Rex had 1 pick each draft when Tanny was here and it wasnt the first rounders.   And if I'm not mistaken it was Greene, Connor, McKnight, Ganaway or something like that.  And I remember him specifically saying Stephen Hill was all Tanny.  Rex's first draft was all offense and of his first 13 picks as a head coach, 11 were offense. 

 

Rex and Bradway wanted Russel Wilson.  Tammy wanted Stephen Hill

[Dcat]

21 minutes ago, JiF said:

FWIW - I remember them specifically saying that Rex had 1 pick each draft when Tanny was here and it wasnt the first rounders.   And if I'm not mistaken it was Greene, Connor, McKnight, Ganaway or something like that.  And I remember him specifically saying Stephen Hill was all Tanny.  Rex's first draft was all offense and of his first 13 picks as a head coach, 11 were offense. 

 

JIF, those were the later round picks.  We are discussing ONLY 1st round picks, not later picks or free agency..  I will contend to my death that all the 1st round picks were Rex picks and Woody blessed the process.  Not talking bout 2nd rounders like Stephen Hill, who Rex thought was a ridiculous pick.  The "Rex" picks that you refer to above were the very late picks he got each year and it was made public that those were his.  I claim that he controlled round 1 every year and the team gave us the illusion it was a committee choice.

Look... you are a Rex fan, so you have a stake in defending him.  If you don't want to believe that he called the shots on 1st round picks, all 7 of them, then fine.  Look at those 7 picks and tell me that Tanny/Idzik or any football man would have stacked defense like that and foresaken offense.  Nope.  And the evidence shows that Tanny, on his own prior to Rex's arrival, was closer to 50-50 offense/defense in round 1.  So why the change of direction once Rex came aboard?  Answer: Woody let Rex have what he wanted in round 1 and Tanny and Idzik had to go along.  Rex got his 1st round toys.   Sanchez, Wilson, Coples, Wilk, Pryor, Sheldon.  2nd round and beyond was mostly committee.  And no... it was never published that this was a Woody move to please his surrogate son, Rex Ryan.  

Rex fans obviously want to continue this old, stale debate.  Being that I have no documented proof... only logic, hearsay and the obviousness of the picks themselves... leave it at that.  Take Pryor for example.  Why draft a thumper for safety when the league requires much more coverage from safeties?  Only a GM with his brain still in the 1970's -80's would do that.  And Tanny was not like that. Idzik? who knows if he even had a brain to begin with.   But Rex was just like that. If you and Dom want to believe that Rex didn't control round 1 of the draft each and every year he was here, then so be it.  It's moot, because thankfully, the imbecile is long gone.  Wish we did it as quickly as Buffalo did.  

[ChuckkieB]

I never understood the BPA philosophy.  IMO, a team's needs should supersede all other metrics and philosophies by which players are picked.  Prior to the draft, a team should prioritize what their biggest needs are, and then draft accordingly.  I would imagine that under most circumstances, there should be a player at a position of need on the board with a draft grade that puts them at least in the range to justify taking them with a team's current pick.  Using this strategy, will there be circumstances where a team would be considered "reaching" a little for a certain player?  Sure, but so what?  Unless the difference between need at a particular position and draft position are significantly far apart,  I would be picking based on need every round. 

[JiFtheOracle]

Just now, Dcat said:

JIF, those were the later round picks.  We are discussing ONLY 1st round picks, not later picks or free agency..  I will contend to my death that all the 1st round picks were Rex picks and Woody blessed the process.  Not talking bout 2nd rounders like Stephen Hill, who Rex thought was a ridiculous pick.  The "Rex" picks that you refer to above were the very late picks he got each year and it was made public that those were his.  I claim that he controlled round 1 every year and the team gave us the illusion it was a committee choice.

Look... you are a Rex fan, so you have a stake in defending him.  If you don't want to believe that he called the shots on 1st round picks, all 7 of them, then fine.  Look at those 7 picks and tell me that Tanny/Idzik or any football man would have stacked defense like that and foresaken offense.  Nope.  And the evidence shows that Tanny, on his own prior to Rex's arrival, was closer to 50-50 offense/defense in round 1.  So why the change of direction once Rex came aboard?  Answer: Woody said so.  Rex got his 1st round toys.   Sanchez, Wilson, Coples, Wilk, Pryor, Sheldon.  2nd round and beyond was mostly committee.  And no... it was never published that this was a Woody move to please his surrogate son, Rex Ryan.  Rex fans obviously want to continue this old, stale debate.  Being that I have no documented proof... only logic, hearsay and the obviousness of the picks themselves... leave it at that.  Take Pryor for example.  Why draft a thumper for safety when the league requires much more coverage from safeties.  Only a GM withhis brain still in the 1970's -80's would do that.  And Tanny was not like that.  Rex was. If you and Dom want to believe that Rex didn't control round 1 of the draft each and every year he was here, then so be it.  It's moot, because thankfully, the imbecile is long gone.  Wish we did it as quickly as Buffalo did.  

You can contend all you want but they literally talked about it in an interview.  Tanny controlled the draft and had final say on all personnel.  He would ask Rex his opinion but Rex only got 1 pick each draft and it wasnt the first rounders.  Maybe they were lying but I dont see why.  So you can speculate all you want, I'll go with what I heard straight from the horses mouth. 

And I dont know where you're getting this impression that Tanny was all about offense till Rex got there.  He went offense his first year with Mangold and Brick because they couldnt even field an OLine at the current state and then Tanny picked Revis and Gholston in consecutive years.  He was picking D before Rex showed up, my man.

Again, 11 of Rex Ryan's first 13 picks, were offense.  His first draft, they didnt select a single defensive player.  lmfao

 

 

 

[#27TheDominator]

Maybe they went D because they had spent a ton of resources on O.  Braylon, Holmes, Jones, Tomlinson, Faneca, Woody, Richardson, Ivory, Decker, Harvin, Burress and that piece of sh*t Mason.  Beyond the draft what resources were spent on D?  Bart Scott, Cromartie, re-signing Revis and an annual safety - Leonhard, Laron Landry, Dawan Landry.  Slightly favors the offense, no?  

[derp]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I think you have it 100% backwards, 180 degrees.

The Gm is drafting players that should fit in a scheme, the coach has no scheme, he is one of these 'I am a hybrid coach!' wizards.  He has no clue if his D is 3-4 or 4-3, Mac has drafted as if the team is 3-4.  It is the coach that has no clue how to use the players he is being provided with.

I don't think Bowles is a great coach as I alluded to, but I'm talking about how the players fit with each other, not players and scheme. It's not easy to put three five technique defensive ends on the field at the same time regardless of what system you run. I think Mauldin and Jenkins are both better suited to play the same OLB role - Mauldin changed positions this offseason after Jenkins was drafted (presumably because Mauldin was the better suited of the two for his new spot). He seems to have an affinity for deep threat WR's with no QB who can get the ball to guys downfield consistently. Loves throwing darts and drafting project QB's - but at this point that's two premium picks he's used in two years and we have so little to show for it that we literally have no clue who will be the starting QB next year.

Again, don't think Bowles is a great head coach - but I don't think Maccagnan is doing him any favors either drafting redundant guys and ignoring other spots (namely the blatantly aging OL). Though as someone mentioned above I think the Lee pick was for Bowles (not sure if he was hand picked or not but they did seem to be targeting that kind of ILB). But regardless - there hasn't been much drafting of guys who fit with the pieces the team has IMO.

[Dcat]

27 minutes ago, JiF said:

You can contend all you want but they literally talked about it in an interview.  Tanny controlled the draft and had final say on all personnel.  He would ask Rex his opinion but Rex only got 1 pick each draft and it wasnt the first rounders.  Maybe they were lying but I dont see why.  So you can speculate all you want, I'll go with what I heard straight from the horses mouth. 

And I dont know where you're getting this impression that Tanny was all about offense till Rex got there.  He went offense his first year with Mangold and Brick because they couldnt even field an OLine at the current state and then Tanny picked Revis and Gholston in consecutive years.  He was picking D before Rex showed up, my man.

Again, 11 of Rex Ryan's first 13 picks, were offense.  His first draft, they didnt select a single defensive player.  lmfao

We are only talking about 1st round picks.  The rest were committee. Tanny was 60% offense/40% defense with 1st round picks before Rex.  After Rex, all defense + Rex's boy Sanchez.

[JiFtheOracle]

16 minutes ago, Dcat said:

We are only talking about 1st round picks.  The rest were committee. Tanny was 60% offense/40% defense with 1st round picks before Rex.  After Rex, all defense + Rex's boy Sanchez.

He has 3 drafts before Rex.  Went D twice in the 1st rd. 

What are you taking about? Lol 

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, JiF said:

He has 3 drafts before Rex.  Went D twice in the 1st rd. 

What are you taking about? Lol 

Rex is also influencing Maccagnan.

[thadude]

7 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Maybe they went D because they had spent a ton of resources on O.  Braylon, Holmes, Jones, Tomlinson, Faneca, Woody, Richardson, Ivory, Decker, Harvin, Burress and that piece of sh*t Mason.  Beyond the draft what resources were spent on D?  Bart Scott, Cromartie, re-signing Revis and an annual safety - Leonhard, Laron Landry, Dawan Landry.  Slightly favors the offense, no?  

We drafted Wilson in '10 because he was going to be the "Welker-stopper" that blew up badly in our face

 

Milliner im not ashamed to say I supported the jets drafting him.  We just traded Revis and he was the best cb prospect his body just fell apart

I don't know how Pryor happened.   Total sh-tshow of a draft pick

The rest of the D picks were Rex falling in love with defensive linemen

[Dcat]

7 hours ago, JiF said:

He has 3 drafts before Rex.  Went D twice in the 1st rd. 

What are you taking about? Lol 

Tanny's pre-Rex 1st round picks were in 2006, 2007 2008: Brick, Mangold, Revis, Gholston, Keller. 3 offense.  2 Defense. 60/40 like I said.  With Rex it was all defense. Except for sanchez of course.  Rex was in total control of the 1st round no matter what you say.