Lawrence Vs. Fields

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

About 20% of BYU's receptions went to TEs, but I have no idea where they were catching them.  IN any case, I think this is more a matter of what plays are called, which is not necessarily in the QB's control. 

Can't fault Fields for heavily throwing to the right if that's where the open man is.  But we also can't say he isn't able to throw left based on that.  By the same token, BYU may have called plays mostly along the sidelines because that's where they had the advantage based on their personnel and opponents.  This isn't a knock on either QB. To my eye, they can both throw the rock.  Wilson appears to have the better long pass.  But Fields' athletic ability and ability to pass successfully in that intermediate range where you get first downs is more valuable IMO.  Chicks dig the long ball, but 1st downs win games.

I'm not saying I know he'll be a better QB in the NFL, and certainly not in the Jets' offensive system.  I just think he's got the edge based on the things he can do that Wilson can't.  This league favors young QBs who can run.  QBs who can't run need to pass like Rodgers or Brady.  And as good as Wilson looks, I am not as comfortable gambling that he's going to be that good coming out of BYU off one good season as others. 

Just opinion.

All good none of us our draft experts. My opinion is that Fields will bust in the NFL and Wilson will be elite. I also feel strongly that Lawrence is not going to be that great.

[Irish Jet]

Stats mean nothing college. Watch the players. 

Lawrence has poise under pressure and makes the correct decision 95% of the time, both with his legs and his arm. He can make every single throw easily. 

Fields is well suited to be a college QB but he's constantly throwing up ducks that NFL defenders will easily pick. His decision making is abysmal and he doesn't make the most out of his dual threat abilities at all. He needs things to be simplified for him in ways Lawrence just doesn't.

Fields' only chance is going to a great team and getting to sit for a while. Otherwise Lawrence will be the the better player, even with Jacksonville and Schotty. He's too good. 

[Jackie Treehorn]

As a near novice I love to read these kinds of discussions! 

Who was the poster on here who predicted Mahomes greatness? I remember reading a thread about it, but unfortunately forgot who it was. 

Step forward sir! 

[Dunnie]

2 hours ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

As a near novice I love to read these kinds of discussions! 

Who was the poster on here who predicted Mahomes greatness? I remember reading a thread about it, but unfortunately forgot who it was. 

Step forward sir! 

I did ... but i was not alone ...

Edited February 5, 2021 by Dunnie

[JustInFudge]

8 hours ago, win4ever said:

Yeah, that whole system is propped up mainly because of Watson's success in the NFL.  As we get closer to the draft, I want to take some time to find some All 22 for Lawrence, and point out some issues.  He makes very good throws at times, but he's inaccurate enough times, that I don't get this "generational talent" moniker.  

I don't want to sound like conspiracy theory nut or reading too much into it, but do you think Meyer picks Fields?  

The video below is him talking about Lawrence and what makes him elite.  However, you can mark the same thing to Fields, especially after the toughness he showed in the semi-final game.  He's about as locked into Ohio State as I've seen a guy (still refuses to say Michigan, while working for the Big10 Network).  

 But the interesting thing to me were his OC and Passing game coordinator hires (Bevell and Schotenheimer) both of whom played with Russel Wilson, who some have given the comps to for Fields.  Mobile, accurate, with an uncanny deep pass that seems to just drop in.  Meyer likes to run a system similar to what Day did at OSU in which he likes to use the RPO for numbers, and attack down the field.   A system in which Fields is well versed in.  

I don't know how locked in that No. 1 pick is for Lawrence.  

A few folks say he went to the Jags instead of the Jets because of Lawrence, but I think he really went there because he wanted say in the roster, which he wouldn't have nearly as much say with the Jets or Chargers.  

Do you think No. 1 is locked to be Lawrence?

I love your breakdowns and look forward to you analyzing Lawrence.  He has very serious accuracy and ball placement issues, even on the insane amount of screens he throws, his WR's are constantly making adjustments for off the mark balls.  Someone posted some data on that as well, his off target rate is crazy high for "generational talent" but I honestly think the biggest thing that scares me with him is how bad he shrunk and how big a whiner he was in both his losses.  When your OL is telling you to keep your chin up as you mope around on the sideline, yikes!!!  Meanwhile, Fields was balling with broken ribs.  Honestly, of all the TL red flags, that is by far bar none, the biggest IMO.  He's soft AF.

[Stark]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

I love your breakdowns and look forward to you analyzing Lawrence.  He has very serious accuracy and ball placement issues, even on the insane amount of screens he throws, his WR's are constantly making adjustments for off the mark balls.  Someone posted some data on that as well, his off target rate is crazy high for "generational talent" but I honestly think the biggest thing that scares me with him is how bad he shrunk and how big a whiner he was in both his losses.  When your OL is telling you to keep your chin up as you mope around on the sideline, yikes!!!  Meanwhile, Fields was balling with broken ribs.  Honestly, of all the TL red flags, that is by far bar none, the biggest IMO.  He's soft AF.

extremely unlikely, pipe dream -  but... Jax takes Fields @ 1, JETS trade #2 pick (Lawrence) for Watson. Generational talent and all - man.... 

 

 

[win4ever]

1 hour ago, JiF said:

I love your breakdowns and look forward to you analyzing Lawrence.  He has very serious accuracy and ball placement issues, even on the insane amount of screens he throws, his WR's are constantly making adjustments for off the mark balls.  Someone posted some data on that as well, his off target rate is crazy high for "generational talent" but I honestly think the biggest thing that scares me with him is how bad he shrunk and how big a whiner he was in both his losses.  When your OL is telling you to keep your chin up as you mope around on the sideline, yikes!!!  Meanwhile, Fields was balling with broken ribs.  Honestly, of all the TL red flags, that is by far bar none, the biggest IMO.  He's soft AF.

Maybe it's because I'm a victim of watching Darnold, but what worried me about the tape with Lawrence is the sheer amount of throws where he's falling away, or shielding himself from the rush, instead of stepping into it.  I saw this with Sanchez a good amount and Darnold, where they try to protect themselves by doing a little spin move as they throw.  This usually floats the ball because there is no proper follow through, but that is something that needs to be corrected.  

I liked that Fields was motivated by the loss last year, even though he outplayed Lawrence, and came back with vengeance.  I would have loved to see him at full strength vs. Alabama, but he just wasn't right.  I think for a normal game, he sits that one out.  

It'll be interesting to see how things play out the more we get into draft season.  

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

extremely unlikely, pipe dream -  but... Jax takes Fields @ 1, JETS trade #2 pick (Lawrence) for Watson. Generational talent and all - man.... 

 

 

fwiw, local rumors, TL was part of the package with Urban.  He has to take him.

[JustInFudge]

49 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Maybe it's because I'm a victim of watching Darnold, but what worried me about the tape with Lawrence is the sheer amount of throws where he's falling away, or shielding himself from the rush, instead of stepping into it.  I saw this with Sanchez a good amount and Darnold, where they try to protect themselves by doing a little spin move as they throw.  This usually floats the ball because there is no proper follow through, but that is something that needs to be corrected.  

I liked that Fields was motivated by the loss last year, even though he outplayed Lawrence, and came back with vengeance.  I would have loved to see him at full strength vs. Alabama, but he just wasn't right.  I think for a normal game, he sits that one out.  

It'll be interesting to see how things play out the more we get into draft season.  

Yep, TL was ducking and chucking in the Champ game.  2 years in a row.  We've seen him face adversity twice and both were absolute embarrassing disasters.  

[Jackie Treehorn]

5 hours ago, Dunnie said:

I did ... but i was not alone ...

Well done! 
 

So what do you think of the upcoming draft class? 

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

Yep, TL was ducking and chucking in the Champ game.  2 years in a row.  We've seen him face adversity twice and both were absolute embarrassing disasters.  

You are using the same exact argument you condemned people for using against Fields. Just sayin.

I think there is a chance both of them fall short of expectations. Thats not to say they wont be good QB's but I'm not expecting world beating from either one of them. They are not going to be in the league of the Brady's Mahomes or Rodgers you know guys who can get it done with just about anyone who lines up. They will however probably do good if they get outstanding skill players to support their play.

When it comes to screens and dump offs Brees made a career of that hence the 70+ comp rating he had for years. One year Brees had a whopping 190 completions to RB's . Most QB's in the NFL with Ridiculous completion percentages throw a sh*t load of short passes RB screens WR screens and check downs. QB's of the past namely the 70's never approached those comp percentages because they never ran those type of offenses until Bill Walsh adopted the WCO back in the day. 

Keep in mind the Jets will be running a WCO so Mac Jones may just be the best fit here and I would not doubt for a second if the Jets pass on Watson they will trade out of number 2 pick load up with skill players and draft Mac Jones. 

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

You are using the same exact argument you condemned people for using against Fields. Just sayin.

I think there is a chance both of them fall short of expectations. Thats not to say they wont be good QB's but I'm not expecting world beating from either one of them. They are not going to be in the league of the Brady's Mahomes or Rodgers you know guys who can get it done with just about anyone who lines up. They will however probably do good if they get outstanding skill players to support their play.

When it comes to screens and dump offs Brees made a career of that hence the 70+ comp rating he had for years. One year Brees had a whopping 190 completions to RB's . Most QB's in the NFL with Ridiculous completion percentages throw a sh*t load of short passes RB screens WR screens and check downs. QB's of the past namely the 70's never approached those comp percentages because they never ran those type of offenses until Bill Walsh adopted the WCO back in the day. 

Keep in mind the Jets will be running a WCO so Mac Jones may just be the best fit here and I would not doubt for a second if the Jets pass on Watson they will trade out of number 2 pick load up with skill players and draft Mac Jones. 

Meh, not really.  TL is going #1, I've never waivered from that, I just dont think he's generational and I dont think the gap is that big.  Fields has had 1 bad game and he wasnt a whiny little mopey bitch in the process, his team actually still won and people have basically written him off as a bust.  They seemingly ignored TL flaws and multiple bad games.

I have no idea what this team is going to do at QB and I cant really control it so whatever happens, happens and I'm not making any predictions about anyone.  I think all these 1st RD names have some admirable traits and I think they're all flawed just the same.  While I have my preferences, it really doesnt matter, I just dont want another season of Sam Darnold.

 

[win4ever]

3 hours ago, JiF said:

Yep, TL was ducking and chucking in the Champ game.  2 years in a row.  We've seen him face adversity twice and both were absolute embarrassing disasters.  

Yeah I'm just not sold on him because he's hasn't put that "generational talent" on the field.  I see glimpses of out, but not there yet.

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

You are using the same exact argument you condemned people for using against Fields. Just sayin.

I think there is a chance both of them fall short of expectations. Thats not to say they wont be good QB's but I'm not expecting world beating from either one of them. They are not going to be in the league of the Brady's Mahomes or Rodgers you know guys who can get it done with just about anyone who lines up. They will however probably do good if they get outstanding skill players to support their play.

When it comes to screens and dump offs Brees made a career of that hence the 70+ comp rating he had for years. One year Brees had a whopping 190 completions to RB's . Most QB's in the NFL with Ridiculous completion percentages throw a sh*t load of short passes RB screens WR screens and check downs. QB's of the past namely the 70's never approached those comp percentages because they never ran those type of offenses until Bill Walsh adopted the WCO back in the day. 

Keep in mind the Jets will be running a WCO so Mac Jones may just be the best fit here and I would not doubt for a second if the Jets pass on Watson they will trade out of number 2 pick load up with skill players and draft Mac Jones. 

Mac Jones is interesting, because he sort of has that Burrow like rise but with a bunch of first round talent around him.  Like his WR core would be top 5 in the NFL in my opinion (so would Burrow's btw) but I think he has some limits to his upside.  I think his floor is high but I heard he made like barely half of the tight window throws as Burrow last year, and I question his athletic ability.  I think the league is moving more and more towards a mobile QB (which is why I think someone like Rosen just fell on his face) and I just don't see it with him.  

I think it also hurts that Tua sucked this year and he looked like a world beater at Alabama, as Tua I think put up a better rating last year than Jones this year.  I also don't think he's a fit for the Shanahan system (assuming that's what we're using) because his lack of mobility means he has to rely on his surrounding cast to create mismatches.  That works if you go to a loaded offense like say the Falcons or Dallas, but if he needs to buy time in the pocket, then I think he struggles.  At least in my opinion, the Shanahan offense works on misdirection to slow down the defense enough to set up blocks.  I don't think he'd be a great fit for that aspect because he's a non threat to run, freeing up defenders to focus less on the misdirection.  

I see your point about Brees, albeit I would argue that Brees has elite elite accuracy.  I'm a Michigan fan, and while still young, I remember watching Brees in college because those Purdue teams were pesky with him.  He just displayed that accurate touch that was so impossible to defend, and it carried over to the NFL.  I don't know if Lawrence/Jones or really anyone else in this class shows that kind of accuracy.  

[maury77]

8 hours ago, win4ever said:

Maybe it's because I'm a victim of watching Darnold, but what worried me about the tape with Lawrence is the sheer amount of throws where he's falling away, or shielding himself from the rush, instead of stepping into it.  I saw this with Sanchez a good amount and Darnold, where they try to protect themselves by doing a little spin move as they throw.  This usually floats the ball because there is no proper follow through, but that is something that needs to be corrected.  

I liked that Fields was motivated by the loss last year, even though he outplayed Lawrence, and came back with vengeance.  I would have loved to see him at full strength vs. Alabama, but he just wasn't right.  I think for a normal game, he sits that one out.  

It'll be interesting to see how things play out the more we get into draft season.  

I think that was the biggest miss for me with Darnold, not noticing how often he shied away from contact. Say what you want about Josh Allen at Wyoming, but his toughness and arm always stood out to me. 

This (along with competition and injuries) is what scares me about Wilson. Watch his tape and notice how often he abandons clean pockets or shies away from contact. I think he's soft. 

[Smashmouth]

6 hours ago, win4ever said:

Yeah I'm just not sold on him because he's hasn't put that "generational talent" on the field.  I see glimpses of out, but not there yet.

Mac Jones is interesting, because he sort of has that Burrow like rise but with a bunch of first round talent around him.  Like his WR core would be top 5 in the NFL in my opinion (so would Burrow's btw) but I think he has some limits to his upside.  I think his floor is high but I heard he made like barely half of the tight window throws as Burrow last year, and I question his athletic ability.  I think the league is moving more and more towards a mobile QB (which is why I think someone like Rosen just fell on his face) and I just don't see it with him.  

I think it also hurts that Tua sucked this year and he looked like a world beater at Alabama, as Tua I think put up a better rating last year than Jones this year.  I also don't think he's a fit for the Shanahan system (assuming that's what we're using) because his lack of mobility means he has to rely on his surrounding cast to create mismatches.  That works if you go to a loaded offense like say the Falcons or Dallas, but if he needs to buy time in the pocket, then I think he struggles.  At least in my opinion, the Shanahan offense works on misdirection to slow down the defense enough to set up blocks.  I don't think he'd be a great fit for that aspect because he's a non threat to run, freeing up defenders to focus less on the misdirection.  

I see your point about Brees, albeit I would argue that Brees has elite elite accuracy.  I'm a Michigan fan, and while still young, I remember watching Brees in college because those Purdue teams were pesky with him.  He just displayed that accurate touch that was so impossible to defend, and it carried over to the NFL.  I don't know if Lawrence/Jones or really anyone else in this class shows that kind of accuracy.  

My take on Brees was more in line of actually making a point than to say he was not accurate. I agree he is very accurate but no one can throw for 78 percent comp and not have a lot of short throws in the mix. 

While Mac Jones may not be a runner he can move in the pocket and I think he could be a smart QB in the NFL surrounded by good skill players. I think with a Mac Jones pick obviously trading out of the number 2 over all we could really load up on elite skill players. This team could get good really quick on offense. I posted a mock drafting 3 skill players and 2 OL on offense and a CB and Edge rusher on defense all within the first 3 rounds but we can't do that with Watson. I guess the Watson thing may come down to what JD actually thinks of the QB class and where he can actually land a QB.

[win4ever]

I think that was the biggest miss for me with Darnold, not noticing how often he shied away from contact. Say what you want about Josh Allen at Wyoming, but his toughness and arm always stood out to me. 
This (along with competition and injuries) is what scares me about Wilson. Watch his tape and notice how often he abandons clean pockets or shies away from contact. I think he's soft. 

The issue with Darnold for me was that I bought into the "pro-ready" hype, that he was the best of the bunch at reading defenses. Since I assumed he'd be gone, didn't dive deep.

The guy I really liked was Mayfield, both on tape and at the combine. I thought his arm was underrated and he could make all the throws.

Although I HATED Allen's tape, reminded me so much of Paxton Lynch. But to his credit, he absolutely turned it around.

I think a lot of the issues with improper follow through is that the ball takes a bit longer or is off target. It works in college, much like it did for Darnold, but those get batted down or worse in the NFL. I don't think this is an issue that is unfixable, but it's just not up to the generational hype he gets.

[Guilhermezmc]

On 2/5/2021 at 12:08 AM, kdels62 said:

 

 

 

 

some fun stats to dissect (in order)

Fields

Lawrence

Wilson

Jones 

Do you have pff subscription? Could you post the data about how they did against pressure? I see that Zach got the best grade of the bunch, but he had like super clean pockets for most of his plays.

[win4ever]

My take on Brees was more in line of actually making a point than to say he was not accurate. I agree he is very accurate but no one can throw for 78 percent comp and not have a lot of short throws in the mix. 
While Mac Jones may not be a runner he can move in the pocket and I think he could be a smart QB in the NFL surrounded by good skill players. I think with a Mac Jones pick obviously trading out of the number 2 over all we could really load up on elite skill players. This team could get good really quick on offense. I posted a mock drafting 3 skill players and 2 OL on offense and a CB and Edge rusher on defense all within the first 3 rounds but we can't do that with Watson. I guess the Watson thing may come down to what JD actually thinks of the QB class and where he can actually land a QB.

I think the Mac Jones angle is definitely worth an option, but where do you think it's safe to pick him? I feel like he's an end of the first round guy, but how far will be drop?

I'm not really sold on him as a QB though, because I feel like he's similar to Tua in that they have such athletes everywhere that it's nearly impossible to judge. Their recruiting is just ridiculous.