Zach Wilson is not Josh Rosen

[#27TheDominator]

13 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Back in the 1970's, believe it or not, lots of times teams gave highly drafted QB's a "5 Year Apprenticeship", that's how a guy like Jim Plunkett hung around long enough to win a Super Bowl with Oakland after being mostly horrific with some horrific New England Patriot teams.  Plunkett didn't have half the physical skill set of Wilson, threw a real ugly ball lots of the time.

Not saying Wilson can do it, but to see him outplay Patrick Mahomes and then put up 30 points in a half of football and win AFC Offensive Player of the Week from his play last Sunday while making throws not many QBs can should at least give the Jets AND their fans pause before they salivate getting rid of Wilson for a 5th Rd draft pick.  QB's don't grow on trees, there are Very Few good ones.

On a side note, does Anyone know who is 2nd In the NFL in DROPPED PASSES in 2023?  Why it's the NY Jets.  Rodgers starts in 2024, I'm hoping they don't just discard Wilson.  In fact I hope he lights up Miami this Sunday, that will make for a real fun board discussion, and even if he doesn't I still hope he's on the roster in 2024.

Back in the 1970's there was no real free agency and teams could sit on guys for as long as they liked.  Plunkett is an odd case.  Not great in New England they traded him for a QB and I think it was 3 1sts and a 2nd.  He sucked so bad in SF they cut him and he went and sat in Oakland until Pastorini broke his leg.  Within a couple of years of winning the super bowl, they benched him for Marc Wilson, He didn't have a winning record in a season until he was 33 years old.   Things like that happen, but they are not models to follow.

[T0mShane]

21 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Confidence and trusting your skill set is paramount to becoming a quality QB in the NFL. But the coaching staff has to have confidence in the QB as well to trust him to make plays and not go ultra conservative. If the CS was telling ZW to not make mistakes, take sacks if necessary and punt the ball then they are equally culpable in ZW's lack of development. Would ZW still suck if allowed to just fling it every game - possibly , would the offense be scoring more than 6 points a game , I believe so.  I don't think 4 more games will prove the point either way , I just think its a shame  we've saddled a #2 draft pick QB with a ultra conservative offensive mindset.  

This has been disproven by the fact that Josh Johnson, Mike White, and Joe Flacco all put up prodigious numbers playing in the same offense as Zach with the same personnel as Zach behind the same OL as Zach. The offense appears “conservative” because the QB is bad. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

This has been disproven by the fact that Josh Johnson, Mike White, and Joe Flacco all put up prodigious numbers playing in the same offense as Zach with the same personnel as Zach behind the same OL as Zach. The offense appears “conservative” because the QB is bad. 

Harken back to the traffic light approach with sanchez. When you have inefficient, turnover prone qbs with a good defense, a defensive minded hc goes overly conservative

[Hex]

35 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

I have ADHD ... You can develop focus mechanisms ... Of course I'm old enough where they didn't call it that back when I was a kid... The cool thing is that once focused you are laser focused

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

Same here. It's awesome to get into hyperfocus. I get about 10x production speed and my ego inflates.

That's why I spents 2 seasons defending Zach. I thought maybe that hyperfocus mechanism would click. Then I realized it didn't for me. It took years and lots of effort just to get it to appear when I wanted, let alone in conditions such as the ones Zach experiences on the field. He's going to need to work hard to get laser focused out there. I'll always root for him because he goes through things that I go through, but I just don't see it clicking anymore. He needs to put obvious effort into focusing better, and that could take a while.

[Warfish]

26 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

But witnesses actually reporting said confidence has been on full display is something altogether different.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

Because "witnesses" always speak truthfully, and never speak in PR or company line or "what they should say" ways, right?

[56mehl56]

33 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

This has been disproven by the fact that Josh Johnson, Mike White, and Joe Flacco all put up prodigious numbers playing in the same offense as Zach with the same personnel as Zach behind the same OL as Zach. The offense appears “conservative” because the QB is bad. 

Other than the Mike White start against Chicago , how many of those games were the Jets trailing in and basically needed to throw to stay in the games. Strictly looking at numbers doesn't paint a clear picture. 

[JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Back in the 1970's there was no real free agency and teams could sit on guys for as long as they liked.  Plunkett is an odd case.  Not great in New England they traded him for a QB and I think it was 3 1sts and a 2nd.  He sucked so bad in SF they cut him and he went and sat in Oakland until Pastorini broke his leg.  Within a couple of years of winning the super bowl, they benched him for Marc Wilson, He didn't have a winning record in a season until he was 33 years old.   Things like that happen, but they are not models to follow.

You’re right, “not a model”, but teams in general gave their high round picked QB’s way more time than today, so much so that having them sit on the bench learning for 2 years was the standard.  Very rare that a Rookie QB started in that era.

[56mehl56]

13 minutes ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

You’re right, “not a model”, but teams in general gave their high round picked QB’s way more time than today, so much so that having them sit on the bench learning for 2 years was the standard.  Very rare that a Rookie QB started in that era.

But back in those days the college game and the pro game were vastly different . Today's college offenses are just as complex as their NFL counterparts. College QB's are coming into the NFL more pro ready than ever before.  In hindsight ZW probably should have sat due to his inexperience but at the time I personally felt it made sense starting him since the Jets were starting new with a new HC, new OC , new QBC and a new offense, there was no benefit of ZW sitting watching a Vet like a Flacco also learn a new system. 

[#27TheDominator]

3 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Other than the Mike White start against Chicago , how many of those games were the Jets trailing in and basically needed to throw to stay in the games. Strictly looking at numbers doesn't paint a clear picture. 

I still don't understand this argument.  They opened it up with White and Flacco to stay in the game because they were trailing, but they are conservative with Zach?  Why exactly?  They haven't been trailing?  I ran the numbers recently - they threw 39 times against the Raiders and they were up much of the game and never down more than a score.  36 time against the Giants.  Sure they were trailing against the Chargers, but do you think they could have put up more than 6 points on 49 pass attempts?

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I still don't understand this argument.  They opened it up with White and Flacco to stay in the game because they were trailing, but they are conservative with Zach?  Why exactly?  They haven't been trailing?  I ran the numbers recently - they threw 39 times against the Raiders and they were up much of the game and never down more than a score.  36 time against the Giants.  Sure they were trailing against the Chargers, but do you think they could have put up more than 6 points on 49 pass attempts?

The "they don't let him rip/told him to rip" is a pro-Zach stand-in for criticism of Zach's mostly fearful/timid play as a pro-QB, and regular inability to see/hit/connect on passes throughout his career. 

Rather than lay blame on the guy on the field, seeing the play, choosing the receiver and making the pass, some fans prefer to think it's about Coaches saying "rip/don't rip" before the game and/or calling the "good plays" vs. the "bad plays". 

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I still don't understand this argument.  They opened it up with White and Flacco to stay in the game because they were trailing, but they are conservative with Zach?  Why exactly?  They haven't been trailing?  I ran the numbers recently - they threw 39 times against the Raiders and they were up much of the game and never down more than a score.  36 time against the Giants.  Sure they were trailing against the Chargers, but do you think they could have put up more than 6 points on 49 pass attempts?

By playing conservatively on O and with the Very Good Defense they are staying games with ZW being a game manager . Sure there are games that dictated they throw more but most of those throws were all of the short/intermediate check-down variety. The game where they trailed early by 17(KC) , they were forced to let ZW open it up and he played fairly well. The Raiders and Giants games they threw a lot because they were constantly in 3rd and long and hads lots of possessions and punts by both teams.  The Flacco and White games from last season were completely different animals where the Jets commited turnovers and had to throw again with exception of the Bears game which was a very good game from MW. 

[56mehl56]

Just now, Warfish said:

The "they don't let him rip/told him to rip" is a pro-Zach stand-in for criticism of Zach's mostly fearful/timid play as a pro-QB, and regular inability to see/hit/connect on passes throughout his career. 

Rather than lay blame on the guy on the field, seeing the play, choosing the receiver and making the pass, some fans prefer to think it's about Coaches saying "rip/don't rip" before the game and/or calling the "good plays" vs. the "bad plays". 

There's certainly blame on ZW for not trusting his eyes and instincts and holding the ball too long at times. But the don't turn it over mentatily has definitely made him gun shy. Reminds me of Sanchez after he took a big hit on an awkward scramble and Rex basically mandated him not to run anymore, after that he was a different QB outside the pocket both tentative and indecisive. 

[#27TheDominator]

18 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

By playing conservatively on O and with the Very Good Defense they are staying games with ZW being a game manager . Sure there are games that dictated they throw more but most of those throws were all of the short/intermediate check-down variety. The game where they trailed early by 17(KC) , they were forced to let ZW open it up and he played fairly well. The Raiders and Giants games they threw a lot because they were constantly in 3rd and long and hads lots of possessions and punts by both teams.  The Flacco and White games from last season were completely different animals where the Jets commited turnovers and had to throw again with exception of the Bears game which was a very good game from MW. 

THE CHECKDOWN IS HIM MISSING OPEN RECEIVERS AND PLAYING LIKE A PUSS!  A checkdown is by definition something you do when your deeper options are not there and you take the lesser play. 

They had 39 3rd and longs against the Raiders? This is just a complete crock of sh*t trying to make sense of something you have read but does not jibe with the actual facts.  You keep mentioning the Bears game.  White only threw 28 times against the Bears.  He put it up 57 times against the Vikings.  Look at how many first downs they are getting.  You are literally blaming that on "calling the wrong plays" but they only did that for Zach? 

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

THE CHECKDOWN IS HIM MISSING OPEN RECEIVERS AND PLAYING LIKE A PUSS!  A checkdown is by definition something you do when your deeper options are not there and you take the lesser play. 

They had 39 3rd and longs against the Raiders? This is just a complete crock of sh*t trying to make sense of something you have read but does not jibe with the actual facts.  You keep mentioning the Bears game.  White only threw 28 times against the Bears.  He put it up 57 times against the Vikings.  Look at how many first downs they are getting.  You are literally blaming that on "calling the wrong plays" but they only did that for Zach? 

I'm not going to waste my time trying to further clarify , you are done with ZW and I get it. You want to absolve the CS of any blame and place it all of ZW's shoulders I contend there is blame throughout the organization and that they simply might not have done enough to support a young raw talent that was drafted #2 overall.  You and countless others will tell me I'm a Zachastan or Lisa Wilson or whatever else and nothing can be further from the truth as I openly stated here I wanted Fields as my pick at #2 that draft. The funny thing is those here bashing ZW would be the same group bashing Fields if the CS handled him the way they have handled ZW.  

[#27TheDominator]

6 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

I'm not going to waste my time trying to further clarify , you are done with ZW and I get it. You want to absolve the CS of any blame and place it all of ZW's shoulders I contend there is blame throughout the organization and that they simply might not have done enough to support a young raw talent that was drafted #2 overall.  You and countless others will tell me I'm a Zachastan or Lisa Wilson or whatever else and nothing can be further from the truth as I openly stated here I wanted Fields as my pick at #2 that draft. The funny thing is those here bashing ZW would be the same group bashing Fields if the CS handled him the way they have handled ZW.  

I never said any of that, but whatever helps you sleep at night.  He looked better against the Texans.  I find the idea that was because the coaching staff "let him rip it" laughable.  You don't.  That's cool.  People are literally acting like they finally let him air it out.  To back this up, they are touting a Nania piece where he points out they used 12 and 21 personnel much more often.  If there is one thing that screams opening up the O it is two tight ends!

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I never said any of that, but whatever helps you sleep at night.  He looked better against the Texans.  I find the idea that was because the coaching staff "let him rip it" laughable.  You don't.  That's cool.  People are literally acting like they finally let him air it out.  To back this up, they are touting a Nania piece where he points out they used 12 and 21 personnel much more often.  If there is one thing that screams opening up the O it is two tight ends!

I guess it is if you actually pass it to them and don't use them as blockers or decoys. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

I guess it is if you actually pass it to them and don't use them as blockers or decoys. 

Seems like a strange answer in response to a ton of numbers showing they let him drop back plenty and from the guy that complained about dump offs.  He threw for 300 yards but like 90 were (eek!) to the back!

[PFSIKH]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:53 PM, Integrity28 said:

One good game.

He keeps it up, he’s still a Jet next year. Y’all need to get a grip.

The Jets cannot afford to keep him.  

The Jets and Patriots have to decide on picking up their respective QBs 5th year option.  If they do, they commit themselves to alot of money on QBs they have already decided to move on from.  From the start of the league's new year, they can be traded.  They do not save much money, but they do save some.  

The Jets are projected to have 14 million in cap space.  They do have players they can cut to make room.   Maybe, the Jets and Zach workout a Jordan Love type deal.  You do not pick up the option, but you extend him so he can get his money.    The Packers did this when they had no one ahead of Jordan.  The Jets do.    

[Flea Flicking Frank]

6 hours ago, T0mShane said:

This has been disproven by the fact that Josh Johnson, Mike White, and Joe Flacco all put up prodigious numbers playing in the same offense as Zach with the same personnel as Zach behind the same OL as Zach. The offense appears “conservative” because the QB is bad. 

Mike white finished his prodigious jets career with 8 TDs and 12 ints. Josh Johnson played 1 game, and Flacco looked dead in his last start. Let’s be real, T0m

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

Sam Darnold’s “encouraging” finish to his rookie year proved to be a big lie.

The Jets are complete idiots if they allow wherever happens over the remaining 4 game to sway them one way or another.

[Rich Thornburgh]

On 12/13/2023 at 3:27 AM, Dunnie said:

 

I have heard on numerous national radio stations today, that people can see Zach ending up with the Chiefs next year , serving as Maholmes' backup and getting coached up by Reid. Then traded for a first round pick.

 

His physical abilities are just undeniable ... people are realizing it's a mental maturity thing. That can be developed .. god given talent cannot. The next four games will tell the tale ... Either the game has slowed down or not.

 

So long Zachy boy ... We hardly knew ya. Good luck wherever ye may land.

 

 

 

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Zach still sucks.  Enjoy defending him in 2024 when he’s starting again because rodgers got hurt again

[Rich Thornburgh]

4 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Sam Darnold’s “encouraging” finish to his rookie year proved to be a big lie.

The Jets are complete idiots if they allow wherever happens over the remaining 4 game to sway them one way or another.

Season over.  Soft part of the schedule. Wait til 2 weeks from now when we play a commanders secondary that would have trouble stopping most of the posters on this messageboard at qb