ZACH WILSON isn’t on the Jets anymore discussion (merged)

[MykePM]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

Good grief.  Twelve pages on Zach.  Time to move on.

This is one of those "catharsis threads", and the need for it with this topic seems to be as bottomless as Hermione's bag.  We should probably just let everyone who needs it have it.

[Matt39]

6 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I mean, doing an autopsy on the extreme bust that just cost the franchise and its fans three years of their football lives is absolutely something a beat writer should be into, especially when those beat writers carried the org’s water on the topic for three years. Every so often, Cimini will make an allusion to the battles that were going on behind the scenes with Wilson, but none of them dare to type it up. We got the Rosenblatt piece, but that was clearly most Russini throwing him a few bones and letting him have a byline. 

An example of Cimini flying a bit close to the sun but not going all the way there

[T0mShane]

16 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

An example of Cimini flying a bit close to the sun by not going all the way there

Cimini isn’t gonna jeopardize that sweet ESPN gig. Hughes, Rosenblatt, etc, can be replaced by any number of kids graduating from Newhouse this year, so they toe the line. 

[T0mShane]

Imagine defending this mush:

 

[Matt39]

21 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Cimini isn’t gonna jeopardize that sweet ESPN gig. Hughes, Rosenblatt, etc, can be replaced by any number of kids graduating from Newhouse this year, so they toe the line. 

Hughes is with SNY so he’s going to toe more than the others. 

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Hughes is with SNY so he’s going to toe more than the others. 

I give Hughes some credit because there are benefits to access journalism for the fanbase. He’s easily the most mentioned and high-profile of the beat guys, and he seems to put in the work. Yes it’s gross that he’ll occasionally be called upon to launder Douglas’s ****ups, but the alternative is becoming like Dennis Waczak or Costello, who’ve made careers out of puking up anodyne FanSided-quality crap that no one reads. Rosenblatt could have been good, and he’s sitting on a nice job himself, but he’s also lazy as **** and is treating the job like a stepping stone to a columnist gig at Defector or something. 

[rangerous]

15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And yet he is.  Why is this so hard to believe?  Stidham wouldn't be the first sh*tty veteran QB to outplay Zach Wilson within the same QB room and he won't be the last. 

You guys get so enamored with "arm talent" you fail to recognize that 32 out of 32 HC's in the NFL want a dependable QB2 with a decent floor.  That's what Stidham provides a team.  He's nothing special but also probably won't lose you a game on his own.  Zach is prone to implosion which is NOT what you want out of your backup.  And it's not like Zach has actually demonstrated this supposed huge upside he has outside of like 6 quarters of play his entire pro career.

Meanwhile, as @T0mShane pointed out - no pads should be Zach's time to shine.  So it's only going to get worse for him from here.  

A couple of points.  I suspect Payton is into mind games like his mentor was.   Just because Zach is third string in spring training is meaningless.  To me it means Payton is sending a clear signal that he will need to prove himself. And, since nix was the first round pick it seems like he will be the starter at the moment.  The second point is that Zach was the number two pick in just about all of the pre draft rankings.  Now some of this is due to the fact the jets were going to select a qb.  But some of it is also due to the talent the GMs and scouts are seeing on the field.  Obviously a player’s assessment can only go so deep.  Zach had some flaws that were undetected.  And let’s not forget that not all teams went into the draft looking for a qb, especially one that would cost a significant number of draft picks to move up.  Finally, let’s point out that the three previous jets QBs were also rated high and they failed with the jets.  Maybe it’s playing in ny that’s the issue.

[Warfish]

16 hours ago, MykePM said:

.....the need for it with this topic seems to be as bottomless as Hermione's bag.

No, but really.....

[The Crusher]

Just now, Warfish said:

No, but really.....

I love a good Harry Pooper reference 

[Warfish]

I'm confused why people think there is some mystery about Zach late last year.

1. Zach played like his usual busty poop.

2. The team benched him yet again.

3. He took a pretty wicked hit in his last game.

4. He was told by the GM they planned to trade him.

5. The team stupidly wanted to play him again late due to ongoing GM mismanagement of the QB position.

6. He said "**** off, not interested".  Protecting his own interests at the cost of quitting on his team (that wasn't really "his" team anyway at that point).

7. Saleh did what Saleh does, he screwed up the public facing PR by saying stupid things.  He tried to save face for Zach using his concussion, a concussion clearly long since past at that point.

A typically poorly managed situation by a typically poorly managed NY Jets organization under a typically dumb Jets GM and Head Coach.

This isn't rocket science.  It's bad management, but again, too many folks want to give JD a pass on his multiple ****ups as GM and create lame conspiracy theories to defend JD's mistakes because something something Aaron Rodgers and Sauce/Wilson/Hall.....

[Warfish]

17 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I totally got the joke. It’s always the “beating a dead horse!” guys who have a million posts in the catalog defending the Zachs and Jamal Adamses of the world and instead of apologizing for being nutbags, they want to kick everything under the couch.

Give me a break Tom, some of us were accurate critics of Zach Wilson long before the majority here figured it all out in their usual slow-minded too-late way.  Same for Jamal Adams.  You can peg me as many things, but a "Zach and Jamal defender" isn't one of them.

We have someone to hold accountable, his name is JD, and he is our GM.

No conspiracy needed, Mulder, just holding a bad GM who made several bad decisions at the most important position accountable instead of falling back on "but he picked Sauce/Hall/Wilson..." or "but Rodgers" over and over again.

No one wants to kick this failure under anything, but SOME of us actually want to hold the responsible party, the GM, accountable, while some want to write bad conspiracy fanfic about the one unchangeable aspect of this franchise.

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, rangerous said:

Finally, let’s point out that the three previous jets QBs were also rated high and they failed with the jets.  Maybe it’s playing in ny that’s the issue.

If those guys all went on to success elsewhere, you'd have a point here.  Only Geno Smith did, 9.5 years into his career on his 4th team. 

Mark Sanchez was given golden opportunities in Philly and Denver.  He fell out of favor with Chip Kelly quickly and couldn't even beat out Trevor Siemian for the job in Denver.  He was out of the league in his age 28 season.  Darnold is already on his 3rd team, who went out and drafted a QB in the top 10 in the hopes he'll beat him out and take over the job some point this season.

Playing in NY is tough and the Jets certainly did Darnold and Geno no favors with the rosters they were given.  But the greater issue has always been talent evaluation here, moreso than development.  Forget about QBs....I can only think of a handful of players at any position in the last 40 years who failed here but succeeded elsewhere.

[rangerous]

52 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If those guys all went on to success elsewhere, you'd have a point here.  Only Geno Smith did, 9.5 years into his career on his 4th team. 

Mark Sanchez was given golden opportunities in Philly and Denver.  He fell out of favor with Chip Kelly quickly and couldn't even beat out Trevor Siemian for the job in Denver.  He was out of the league in his age 28 season.  Darnold is already on his 3rd team, who went out and drafted a QB in the top 10 in the hopes he'll beat him out and take over the job some point this season.

Playing in NY is tough and the Jets certainly did Darnold and Geno no favors with the rosters they were given.  But the greater issue has always been talent evaluation here, moreso than development.  Forget about QBs....I can only think of a handful of players at any position in the last 40 years who failed here but succeeded elsewhere.

where's chip kelly these days.  another point that hasn't been stated is most of these rookie jet qbs played for bad or rookie coaches.  only hack had the benefit of real coaching and gailey decided the guy wasn't ready.  as much as hack thinks he wasn't given a chance his problem is he was just bad.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I'm confused why people think there is some mystery about Zach late last year.

1. Zach played like his usual busty poop.

2. The team benched him yet again.

3. He took a pretty wicked hit in his last game.

4. He was told by the GM they planned to trade him.

5. The team stupidly wanted to play him again late due to ongoing GM mismanagement of the QB position.

6. He said "**** off, not interested".  Protecting his own interests at the cost of quitting on his team (that wasn't really "his" team anyway at that point).

7. Saleh did what Saleh does, he screwed up the public facing PR by saying stupid things.  He tried to save face for Zach using his concussion, a concussion clearly long since past at that point.

A typically poorly managed situation by a typically poorly managed NY Jets organization under a typically dumb Jets GM and Head Coach.

This isn't rocket science.  It's bad management, but again, too many folks want to give JD a pass on his multiple ****ups as GM and create lame conspiracy theories to defend JD's mistakes because something something Aaron Rodgers and Sauce/Wilson/Hall.....

5, 6 & 7.
Conjecture 

[bicketybam]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

 7. Saleh did what Saleh does, he screwed up the public facing PR by saying stupid things.  He tried to save face for Zach using his concussion, a concussion clearly long since past at that point.

I've been told that Saleh threw Wilson under the bus last year. As I see it, Saleh (for whatever reasons) always seemed to stand up for Wilson when I'm sure deep down he knew the guy was killing the team. 

So which is it? Did he throw Wilson under the bus or did he stupidly defend him time after time. I'm not suggesting that you feel one way or the other but since you made this point I wanted use the opportunity to raise this question once again.

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

I've been told that Saleh threw Wilson under the bus last year. As I see it, Saleh (for whatever reasons) always seemed to stand up for Wilson when I'm sure deep down he knew the guy was killing the team. 

So which is it? Did he throw Wilson under the bus or did he stupidly defend him time after time. I'm not suggesting that you feel one way or the other but since you made this point I wanted use the opportunity to raise this question once again.

Saleh was forced to take light fire from our esteemed beat on behalf of Woody/JD regarding the Wilson situation. This was the case for 3 years. The knee injury the year prior and the explanation was as confusing as this years concussion.

[bicketybam]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Saleh was forced to take light fire from our esteemed beat on behalf of Woody/JD regarding the Wilson situation. This was the case for 3 years. The knee injury the year prior and the explanation was as confusing as this years concussion.

Did he throw him under the bus?

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, bicketybam said:

Did he throw him under the bus?

I don’t think he ever did no.

[bicketybam]

12 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Saleh was forced to take light fire from our esteemed beat on behalf of Woody/JD regarding the Wilson situation. This was the case for 3 years. The knee injury the year prior and the explanation was as confusing as this years concussion.

So you're big bitch with Saleh is that he plays golf in his off time?

I can't form a real opinion on Saleh until I see him operate with a legit QB. I've never seen anything that suggests he's another Rich Kotite (two cars in the parking lot.) He's a defensive minded head coach and the defense is a top defense in the NFL. He hired MLF who may turn out to be a very good OC but he had to go in order to lure Rodgers. Hard to judge MLF when he was shooting arrows made out of crooked sticks, if you know what I mean.

[Rangers9]

Saleh did take the heat esp the time when he lied and told the press that Zach had won the starting job on the field rookie year. 

[Warfish]

41 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

I've been told that Saleh threw Wilson under the bus last year. As I see it, Saleh (for whatever reasons) always seemed to stand up for Wilson when I'm sure deep down he knew the guy was killing the team. 

So which is it? Did he throw Wilson under the bus or did he stupidly defend him time after time. I'm not suggesting that you feel one way or the other but since you made this point I wanted use the opportunity to raise this question once again.

I (for one) have never said that Saleh "threw Zach under the bus". 

I think Saleh just a bad with media guy who can't get out of his own way verbally, generally, and says dumb stuff.  Or at minimum says things in poor ways leaving them open to poor interpretation, i.e. he makes himself and the team and it's players look bad by mis-speaking.  Not by any malicious intention.

My sense is that Saleh almost always tries to help/cover for his players, he's a rah rah players coach I hear, but his weak verbal and communication skills generally futz that up.  Just look at the recent "Rodgers inexcused" situation as an example.

Ultimately, I think JD put the Jets and Zach in a bad situation by not having, and then not signing, a #2 QB to sit behind Rodgers, so Zach would never have had to see the field in 2023 under any circumstances.  Once Rodgers went down so early, and Zach had to be the man (which he was not able or ready to be), the end result (a bad breakup with another benching followed by drama) was IMO inevitable.  

[bicketybam]

Just now, Warfish said:

I (for one) have never said that Saleh "threw Zach under the bus". 

I think Saleh just a bad with media guy who can't get out of his own way verbally, generally, and says dumb stuff.  Or at minimum says things in poor ways leaving them open to poor interpretation, i.e. he makes himself and the team and it's players look bad by mis-speaking.  Not by any malicious intention.

My sense is that Saleh almost always tries to help/cover for his players, he's a rah rah players coach I hear, but his weak verbal and communication skills generally futz that up.  Just look at the recent "Rodgers inexcused" situation as an example.

Ultimately, I think JD put the Jets and Zach in a bad situation by not having, and then not signing, a #2 QB to sit behind Rodgers, so Zach would never have had to see the field in 2023 under any circumstances.  Once Rodgers went down so early, and Zach had to be the man (which he was not able or ready to be), the end result (a bad breakup with another benching followed by drama) was IMO inevitable.  

Ok, so you don't feel that Saleh has thrown Wilson under the bus. Thank you. 

[Matt39]

44 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

So you're big bitch with Saleh is that he plays golf in his off time?

I can't form a real opinion on Saleh until I see him operate with a legit QB. I've never seen anything that suggests he's another Rich Kotite (two cars in the parking lot.) He's a defensive minded head coach and the defense is a top defense in the NFL. He hired MLF who may turn out to be a very good OC but he had to go in order to lure Rodgers. Hard to judge MLF when he was shooting arrows made out of crooked sticks, if you know what I mean.

He comes off as a phony. The stair running is pure look at me nonsense. Players see through that stuff.

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

Ok, so you don't feel that Saleh has thrown Wilson under the bus. Thank you. 

No, not at all.

[bicketybam]

Just now, Matt39 said:

He comes off as a phony. The stair running is pure look at me nonsense. Players see through that stuff.

The guy is in great shape. He runs stairs as part of his workout. How is this phony? Is he faking it with bionic legs?

You can claim all the whacky sh*t you want about Saleh, but I truly believe his players really love him and play hard for him. I've never seen evidence otherwise. People will claim the Dolphins game as evidence against but I saw that as a defense that was truly beaten down after being let down by the offense time and time again.

 

[Matt39]

3 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

The guy is in great shape. He runs stairs as part of his workout. How is this phony? Is he faking it with bionic legs?

You can claim all the whacky sh*t you want about Saleh, but I truly believe his players really love him and play hard for him. I've never seen evidence otherwise. People will claim the Dolphins game as evidence against but I saw that as a defense that was truly beaten down after being let down by the offense time and time again.

 

I think the relationships between Saleh and his players are purely transactional. The defense plays well because it has talent. If Ulbrich was named head coach tomorrow nothing would change. The stair running is for the cameras and it’s self promotion and I’m sure most of the locker room sees it as cringe. Colgate commercial, receipts, haters poppin. Cringe

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

where's chip kelly these days.  

Relevance?  And at least Chip is still coaching.  He's coming off back-to-back bowl seasons and 3 straight 8+ win seasons with UCLA.  Mark Sanchez "retired" at 28 after failing at 4 other post-Jets stops and finding himself unable to find work.

I'd say the former did better than the latter with his career after they each failed in Philly.

[Matt39]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Give me a break Tom, some of us were accurate critics of Zach Wilson long before the majority here figured it all out in their usual slow-minded too-late way.  Same for Jamal Adams.  You can peg me as many things, but a "Zach and Jamal defender" isn't one of them.

We have someone to hold accountable, his name is JD, and he is our GM.

No conspiracy needed, Mulder, just holding a bad GM who made several bad decisions at the most important position accountable instead of falling back on "but he picked Sauce/Hall/Wilson..." or "but Rodgers" over and over again.

No one wants to kick this failure under anything, but SOME of us actually want to hold the responsible party, the GM, accountable, while some want to write bad conspiracy fanfic about the one unchangeable aspect of this franchise.

My confidence in Joe Douglas and the front office is at the point of you told me they didn’t realize Redick was on the last year of his contract id believe you. What’s even crazier is the Giants across the room made basically the same exact trade knowing they’d had to give Burns a new deal. 

[bicketybam]

31 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I think the relationships between Saleh and his players are purely transactional. The defense plays well because it has talent. If Ulbrich was named head coach tomorrow nothing would change. The stair running is for the cameras and it’s self promotion and I’m sure most of the locker room sees it as cringe. Colgate commercial, receipts, haters poppin. Cringe

I couldn't disagree more. The players love him. Your stair running theory is just another one of your fantasies. 

[ARodJetsFan]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'm confused why people think there is some mystery about Zach late last year.

1. Zach played like his usual busty poop.

2. The team benched him yet again.

3. He took a pretty wicked hit in his last game.

4. He was told by the GM they planned to trade him.

5. The team stupidly wanted to play him again late due to ongoing GM mismanagement of the QB position.

6. He said "**** off, not interested".  Protecting his own interests at the cost of quitting on his team (that wasn't really "his" team anyway at that point).

7. Saleh did what Saleh does, he screwed up the public facing PR by saying stupid things.  He tried to save face for Zach using his concussion, a concussion clearly long since past at that point.

A typically poorly managed situation by a typically poorly managed NY Jets organization under a typically dumb Jets GM and Head Coach.

This isn't rocket science.  It's bad management, but again, too many folks want to give JD a pass on his multiple ****ups as GM and create lame conspiracy theories to defend JD's mistakes because something something Aaron Rodgers and Sauce/Wilson/Hall.....

You can throw the dumb Jets owner in there as well, who knows as much about managing & sustaining a winning football orginization, as my 4 year old niece.

[T0mShane]

20 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

The players love him

Which is always a hallmark of great coaches

[bicketybam]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Which is always a hallmark of great coaches

Did they love Adam Gase?

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, bicketybam said:

Did they love Adam Gase?

We all acknowledge Gase sucks.  The argument is it doesn't HELP a bad coach's cause.  Loving the coach isn't a qualifier for a HC being good.  Players almost universally hated Bill Parcells and he's a top 2 or 3 HC in Jets history.  

RESPECT is far more important than likability.  

[bicketybam]

13 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

We all acknowledge Gase sucks.  The argument is it doesn't HELP a bad coach's cause.  Loving the coach isn't a qualifier for a HC being good.  Players almost universally hated Bill Parcells and he's a top 2 or 3 HC in Jets history.  

RESPECT is far more important than likability.  

You are a good soldier. Go get that cookie 🍪 

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

My confidence in Joe Douglas and the front office is at the point of you told me they didn’t realize Redick was on the last year of his contract id believe you. What’s even crazier is the Giants across the room made basically the same exact trade knowing they’d had to give Burns a new deal. 

Same exact trade?  Does #39 and a 2025 5th equate to a 2026 3rd now?  I'd honestly rather have Reddick sit the first half of the season than be on the hook for 5/$141M.