So I'm the d*ck that's been.....

[sirlancemehlot]

bothered by all these expensive free agaency aquisitions. Raining on the parade. Stick in the mud. I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's. When I think of our lack of continuity in the coaching staff and player personnel, it's no wonder our seasons have been so erratic. Just think of how many Jets are playing well for other teams right now, as we pay through the nose for free agents, who should really be plugging holes instead of making up the bulk of the squad. Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free) Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham, Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome), Pete Kendall...I could go on. Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity. Now Baker's gone without replacement, Coles is gone without replacement, I dunno. I seriously hope this new CS is dedicated to drafting and developing young players. Otherwise we're just the Redskins II.

[Instant Karma]

Yeah, I remember when we drafted Pete Kendall...wait...what?

[Aten]

Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free) Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham, Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome), Pete Kendall...I could go on. Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity.

Having no identity is better than having that identity.

[Larz]

every team in the NFL signs FA's even the steelers and pats*

every team "overpays" for FA's because most people compare the current deal to existing (1 year old) deals

even haynesworth's deal will be topped, probably next year

just the price of doing business

so lance tell me, if you have a losing HC, and your draft picks aren't working out, do you keep them just for the continuity ?

[Jbro22]

dump

[lancemehl]

every team in the NFL signs FA's even the steelers and pats*

every team "overpays" for FA's because most people compare the current deal to existing (1 year old) deals

even haynesworth's deal will be topped, probably next year

just the price of doing business

so lance tell me, if you have a losing HC, and your draft picks aren't working out, do you keep them just for the continuity ?

call him sir lance, please Larz, to differentiate who you're disagreeing with. I have no answer to that question, but I do like signing FA's, I've come to trust that Tanny will keep us out of cap hell so I just concentrate on who it is:

so far

Lito Shep- love

Bart Scott- if he's as good a LB'er as he is an interview, ,i love it, although i question him and Leonhard without Lewis and Reed- but Rex must know something.

Jenkins was a huge pickup last year, that was great, huge upgrade over our homegrown bowling ball.

I love the fact that Rex is a hybrid coach and not jamming one 3-4 scheme into every down. We should have all kinds of looks, Bart Scott called it "Violent.......Organized Chaos". Reminds me of Buddy, doesn't it.

[Klecko73isGod]

I take back my vote.

Best overall poster - sirlancemehlot

Funniest poster - sirlancemehlot

I can not get enough of this man's psychosis.

[will]

bothered by all these expensive free agaency aquisitions. Raining on the parade. Stick in the mud. I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's. When I think of our lack of continuity in the coaching staff and player personnel, it's no wonder our seasons have been so erratic. Just think of how many Jets are playing well for other teams right now, as we pay through the nose for free agents, who should really be plugging holes instead of making up the bulk of the squad. Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free) Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham, Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome), Pete Kendall...I could go on. Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity. Now Baker's gone without replacement, Coles is gone without replacement, I dunno. I seriously hope this new CS is dedicated to drafting and developing young players. Otherwise we're just the Redskins II.

I dont think the Jets have lost a key player since before Mangini came on board. Kendall has been great for the Skins but he's hardly a young, core guy. Vilma had alot of tackles for a bad defense and Chad was good until the playoffs. The Jets identity will be its 3-4 defense. It now has its starters and will hopefully draft and otherwise accumulate reserves through the draft and camps (internal player development: Kenwin Cummings, Murrell, Trusnick etc).

[Sperm Edwards]

bothered by all these expensive free agaency aquisitions. Raining on the parade. Stick in the mud. I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's. When I think of our lack of continuity in the coaching staff and player personnel, it's no wonder our seasons have been so erratic. Just think of how many Jets are playing well for other teams right now, as we pay through the nose for free agents, who should really be plugging holes instead of making up the bulk of the squad. Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free) Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham, Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome), Pete Kendall...I could go on. Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity. Now Baker's gone without replacement, Coles is gone without replacement, I dunno. I seriously hope this new CS is dedicated to drafting and developing young players. Otherwise we're just the Redskins II.

Every team picks up FA's, trades draft picks for other teams' players, and loses its own drafted players. Every single team.

All those players you mentioned that we "lost" were picked up by a team who chose these high-priced incoming players over someone they drafted themselves.

If there are positions you need filled there are three ways to get them: the draft, free agency, and trades. There is no rule or secret formula that says "Only through the draft shalt thou be able to build a superbowl team."

Here's the secret sauce for teams that have so many (good) starters that they drafted: they get lucky.

Pittsburgh could easily have ended up with no QB in the 2004 draft. Ben happened to be there at #11.

Tom Brady turning into Tom Brady was as lucky as anyone gets, and any Pats fan will tell you the same. NE has brought in a TON of free agents over the years. They didn't build their little dynasty solely through the draft. Actually a bunch of starters on their first SB team came from BB's old team: the Jets. Where is your criticism of him?

Matt Leinart was the franchise QB that Arizona drafted. He was healthy & on the bench all season in favor of the FA they signed for millions.

These positions on the 2009 Jets team (as of today):

Green = Jets draft picks, UDFA's, or low-level FA's claimed off waivers

Red = Acquired via trade or FA that "cost us something"

QB: Clemens, Ratliff, Ainge

HB: Jones, Leon, Caulcrick

FB: Richardson, Caulcrick

WR: Cotchery, Stuckey, B.Smith, Clowney, Henry, 2009 draftee (probably)

TE: Keller, 2009 draftee (probably)

LT: Ferguson

LG: Faneca

C: Mangold

RG: Moore

RT: Woody

Backup OL: Hunter, Turner, 2009 draftees (probably)

DE: Ellis, K.Coleman, DeVito, Brown

NT: Jenkins, Pouha (What was your solution, to just have Pouha or to keep DRob?)

DE-OLB types: Pace, Thomas, Gholston, Murrell

ILB: Harris, Scott

CB: Revis, Sheppard, Lowery, D.Coleman

S: Rhodes, Leonhard, E.Smith, Elam

I see a lot more green here than red. And I'll take a top-level FA over a low-level guy we drafted any day of the week.

You just like complaining.

[shutout]

Yeah, I remember when we drafted Pete Kendall...wait...what?

[/Thread]

[sirlancemehlot]

Please try not to twist the post into a least common denominator statement. Warner was not drafted by the Cards--or anyone else--Chrebet was not drafted by the Jets. Point is--it's a constant fire-sale with this team. Trade for favre and dump Penny for free. Favre is one and done. Penny--had to be worth a sixth rounder at least--no? We come out on the losing end. It happens again and again. Last years FA'S: Loved Faneca and Jenkins, did not like Favre, Woody (too much $$) Pace too much $$. The problem is not so much whether a player is picked up via FA or draft or otherwise--it's that there is a constant turnover and no cohesiveness, particularly in the coaching staff. Too many chef's spoiling the "team" concept. You wind up with mercenaries looking to cash in and fizzling at season's end when they've proved to play decently earlier on.

[sirlancemehlot]

Every team picks up FA's, trades draft picks for other teams' players, and loses its own drafted players. Every single team.

All those players you mentioned that we "lost" were picked up by a team who chose these high-priced incoming players over someone they drafted themselves.

If there are positions you need filled there are three ways to get them: the draft, free agency, and trades. There is no rule or secret formula that says "Only through the draft shalt thou be able to build a superbowl team."

Here's the secret sauce for teams that have so many (good) starters that they drafted: they get lucky.

Pittsburgh could easily have ended up with no QB in the 2004 draft. Ben happened to be there at #11.

Tom Brady turning into Tom Brady was as lucky as anyone gets, and any Pats fan will tell you the same. NE has brought in a TON of free agents over the years. They didn't build their little dynasty solely through the draft. Actually a bunch of starters on their first SB team came from BB's old team: the Jets. Where is your criticism of him?

Matt Leinart was the franchise QB that Arizona drafted. He was healthy & on the bench all season in favor of the FA they signed for millions.

These positions on the 2009 Jets team (as of today):

Green = Jets draft picks, UDFA's, or low-level FA's claimed off waivers

Red = Acquired via trade or FA that "cost us something"

QB: Clemens, Ratliff, Ainge

HB: Jones, Leon, Caulcrick

FB: Richardson, Caulcrick

WR: Cotchery, Stuckey, B.Smith, Clowney, Henry, 2009 draftee (probably)

TE: Keller, 2009 draftee (probably)

LT: Ferguson

LG: Faneca

C: Mangold

RG: Moore

RT: Woody

Backup OL: Hunter, Turner, 2009 draftees (probably)

DE: Ellis, K.Coleman, DeVito, Brown

NT: Jenkins, Pouha (What was your solution, to just have Pouha or to keep DRob?)

DE-OLB types: Pace, Thomas, Gholston, Murrell

ILB: Harris, Scott

CB: Revis, Sheppard, Lowery, D.Coleman

S: Rhodes, Leonhard, E.Smith, Elam

I see a lot more green here than red. And I'll take a top-level FA over a low-level guy we drafted any day of the week.

You just like complaining.

Nice job on the breakdown. But it doesn't show the knothead moves that had us right up against the cap prior to dumping, restructuring, resigning players. We didn't make the playoffs with seven pro-bowlers last year. You can't buy a team. You build it. Draft or otherwise.

I usually prefer to crack wise-jokes to complaining. But this team broke my heart last year. I sat with my dying father and watched a gutless squad lose to the Seahawks in St. Joes Hospital in Paterson. Favre sucked. Jenkins sucked. Pace sucked. It was our last game together and a terrible memory

and a weak, passionless performance.

[ZachEY]

Funny you mention Coles. Because he's exactly the type of player that teams like the Steelers and Patriots release. Core guy who's past his prime and making too much money. The Coles release was textbook Steelers.

And we have resigned our guys worth resigning. We don't have a lot of success in the past, so why resign 'our guys' who have been failures.

Teams that are not successful need to build both in the draft and free agency. Arizona's drafted two great Wide Receivers, but couldn't bring it all together until they picked up a QB in free agency.

[rillo]

You just like complaining.

Basically....

[sirlancemehlot]

Funny you mention Coles. Because he's exactly the type of player that teams like the Steelers and Patriots release. Core guy who's past his prime and making too much money. The Coles release was textbook Steelers.

And we have resigned our guys worth resigning. We don't have a lot of success in the past, so why resign 'our guys' who have been failures.

Teams that are not successful need to build both in the draft and free agency. Arizona's drafted two great Wide Receivers, but couldn't bring it all together until they picked up a QB in free agency.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Coles was no longer worth his salary. AZ plugged in a free Agent when they needed someone to throw to their home-grown stars.

Basically my point is based solely on salary cap economy. You can have one or two big $ stars on either side of teh ball and spend a fair amount on solid depth. Or you can spend big $$ on several big stars which reduces what you can spend on your role-players and depth players. So when Jenkins goes down, you wind up with Pouha, a low-price guy. It's a matter of approach. Build from the top-down and get older players that are very good but pricey, or from the bottom up where you develop younger players at less expense allowing better (though not "star" talent) at more positions. Ellis and Thomas are an example of guys that have stuck and are very good, mid-priced guys, as opposed to Favre and Faneca who were prime to past prime expensive guys due to FA. Take WR for instance, Hines Ward and Wes Welker perform very well at moderate price, whereas your superstar WR's cost a fortune and limit your #3 and #4 Wr's pay scale. We need a caoch that can remain past four years in order to truly build a team. Otherwise it's a constant win-now and every big name that pops up becaomes a "sign that beast" situation.

[ZachEY]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Coles was no longer worth his salary. AZ plugged in a free Agent when they needed someone to throw to their home-grown stars.

Basically my point is based solely on salary cap economy. You can have one or two big $ stars on either side of teh ball and spend a fair amount on solid depth. Or you can spend big $$ on several big stars which reduces what you can spend on your role-players and depth players. So when Jenkins goes down, you wind up with Pouha, a low-price guy. It's a matter of approach. Build from the top-down and get older players that are very good but pricey, or from the bottom up where you develop younger players at less expense allowing better (though not "star" talent) at more positions. Ellis and Thomas are an example of guys that have stuck and are very good, mid-priced guys, as opposed to Favre and Faneca who were prime to past prime expensive guys due to FA. Take WR for instance, Hines Ward and Wes Welker perform very well at moderate price, whereas your superstar WR's cost a fortune and limit your #3 and #4 Wr's pay scale. We need a caoch that can remain past four years in order to truly build a team. Otherwise it's a constant win-now and every big name that pops up becaomes a "sign that beast" situation.

As the cap continues to rise, it becomes more and more meaningless. Look at the deal Haynesworth just got. You can always find room for the players you want.

[sirlancemehlot]

As the cap continues to rise, it becomes more and more meaningless. Look at the deal Haynesworth just got. You can always find room for the players you want.

The Haynesworth deal is going to kill the skins at some point. They are a prime example of spending too much in too focused an area. When he gets a bump and bruise they'll have 100mil eating bob-bons on the bench and a league minimum shlub getting run over every play. Socialism, EY! We must socialize this team! there I said it! No longer will the top 10% make 90% of the cap allowance! We can not justify until we simplify! We cannot rise to the top without strength in our bottoms...err...foundation. I'll check in later and explain my theory of each player rotating in to play every position, so that nobody goes home feeling left out at the end of the game. But football communism may be too lofty a goal right now. Socialism is the way to go until then.

[Thai Jet]

You just like complaining.

I think you nailed it.

[sirlancemehlot]

I think you nailed it.

totally unfair. Sperm goes to all the trouble to outline an intelligent argument and you only comment on his last line. Which I might add, he came up with on his own. Heck, your not even the first to agree with him, Rillo beat you to it.

[Larz]

Basically my point is based solely on salary cap economy. You can have one or two big $ stars on either side of teh ball and spend a fair amount on solid depth. Or you can spend big $$ on several big stars which reduces what you can spend on your role-players and depth players. So when Jenkins goes down, you wind up with Pouha, a low-price guy. It's a matter of approach. Build from the top-down and get older players that are very good but pricey, or from the bottom up where you develop younger players at less expense allowing better (though not "star" talent) at more positions..

you do understand that drafted players get paid as well ? the steelers shelled out huge coin for hines ward. the pats* gave seymour and brady their own money printing presses

I'm really not sure how you can say a player is less valuable simply because of how they were acquired

I like tanny's approach, look under every rock to improve the roster.

[Sperm Edwards]

Nice job on the breakdown. But it doesn't show the knothead moves that had us right up against the cap prior to dumping, restructuring, resigning players. We didn't make the playoffs with seven pro-bowlers last year. You can't buy a team. You build it. Draft or otherwise.

I usually prefer to crack wise-jokes to complaining. But this team broke my heart last year. I sat with my dying father and watched a gutless squad lose to the Seahawks in St. Joes Hospital in Paterson. Favre sucked. Jenkins sucked. Pace sucked. It was our last game together and a terrible memory

and a weak, passionless performance.

I'm just illustrating that I don't think they're "buying" a team. They are spending money on players they drafted and money on players others drafted. The whole thing would have more of that "home grown" look if we found a Brady in round 6 or if a Roethlisberger fell into our lap when our pick came up (in a year we were looking to draft a QB in round 1).

I think it only has that appearance because the Jets basically took it easy in free agency & trading picks for players for a few years straight (2005 was Ty Law in a wheelchair and little else; 2006 was Kimo von Useless (and dumping Abraham's contract); 2007 was Thomas Jones & Kenyon Coleman. Not one of them exactly what I would call "splashes". So we had basically saved-up a lot of cap space & had the money to spend after a few non-spendthrift years.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Coles was no longer worth his salary. AZ plugged in a free Agent when they needed someone to throw to their home-grown stars.

Basically my point is based solely on salary cap economy. You can have one or two big $ stars on either side of teh ball and spend a fair amount on solid depth. Or you can spend big $$ on several big stars which reduces what you can spend on your role-players and depth players. So when Jenkins goes down, you wind up with Pouha, a low-price guy. It's a matter of approach. Build from the top-down and get older players that are very good but pricey, or from the bottom up where you develop younger players at less expense allowing better (though not "star" talent) at more positions. Ellis and Thomas are an example of guys that have stuck and are very good, mid-priced guys, as opposed to Favre and Faneca who were prime to past prime expensive guys due to FA. Take WR for instance, Hines Ward and Wes Welker perform very well at moderate price, whereas your superstar WR's cost a fortune and limit your #3 and #4 Wr's pay scale. We need a caoch that can remain past four years in order to truly build a team. Otherwise it's a constant win-now and every big name that pops up becaomes a "sign that beast" situation.

Except that Pouha isn't that much of a low-price guy. As far as backup DT's go, $2M/yr isn't low price. That's a high-priced backup (when you consider he was slotted to be a backup & nothing more when we extended him).

You're confusing poor choices like Pouha, von Oelhoffen, B.Thomas, etc. with the Jets trying to "buy a superbowl" when they're just trying to fill in positions. Times being what they are, free agency & trading is a must. The days of drafting players & them being the team's property with no rights for the rest of their careers...that is long gone.

You have to draft well. You have to get good value for the money you lay out in free agency. And when you trade draft picks away, you have to be pretty certain that you weren't going to sniff at that player with those picks (e.g. Kris Jenkins). And you have to get lucky, particularly with respect to injuries. Jenkins & Favre getting injured around the same time ended the Jets season last year (with or without Mangini's incompetence & tunnel-vision).

And most of the "sign that beast" stuff is tongue-in-cheek, as I'm sure you know.

totally unfair. Sperm goes to all the trouble to outline an intelligent argument and you only comment on his last line. Which I might add, he came up with on his own. Heck, your not even the first to agree with him, Rillo beat you to it.

At least it was appreciated.

And by the way, no one likes complaining more than I do. But I'd probably look less favorably upon our FA acquisitions (or anything we do) if that Seattle game left as much of a lasting memory for me as it did for you. Sorry about your old man.

[rillo]

totally unfair. Sperm goes to all the trouble to outline an intelligent argument and you only comment on his last line. Which I might add, he came up with on his own. Heck, your not even the first to agree with him, Rillo beat you to it.

I agree with everything Sperm wrote, but the last line basically summed it up. For many years the Jets never went after big names in FA or if they did it'll be some 'over the hill' vet. This team has drafted good and spent money to fill big holes, so far those FA's have worked out IMO. I think Ryan's defense scheme will work here with this personnel.

[AdropOFvenom]

bothered by all these expensive free agaency aquisitions. Raining on the parade. Stick in the mud. I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's.

Like how over the years the Patriots have signed/traded for Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Adalius Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison, ect. I could go back to the Super Bowl years and point out Corey Dillon, Ted Washington, ect. as well.

Plenty of good teams have imported players from outside to fill needs, especially when they have a lot of extra salary cap space in their favor.

The better question here, is since Mike Tannenbaum took over, who exactly have we lost that we wanted to keep? All of our Big FA's (Thomas, Cotchery, Rhodes) have been locked up before they reached the open market. Our spending has not prevented us from retaining our solid players.

When I think of our lack of continuity in the coaching staff and player personnel, it's no wonder our seasons have been so erratic.

Hence why the Jets might have done something like keeping the same Offensive Coordinator and Special Teams Coordinator, and while they are implementing a new defensive system, they have brought in 2 starters familiar with the system to help ease in the transition?

Just think of how many Jets are playing well for other teams right now, as we pay through the nose for free agents, who should really be plugging holes instead of making up the bulk of the squad. Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free)

Those were all under the previous regime(s), so I'm not sure how that's really relevant anymore. And for the record, Derrick Ward was a 7th rounder who was on our practice squad that they took. Perhaps we should have found a way to protect him, but we had Curtis Martin and LaMont Jordan at the time at that position, hardly the top of our priorities that year.

Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham

Traded, received great compensation for Abraham and pretty reasonable compensation for Vilma in a contract year with a degenerative knee condition.

Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome),

Seriously? The guy had shown nothing since 2002 to think that he was anything better then an average run-of-the-mill QB. How many years did we need to give him?

Pete Kendall...I could go on.

Should have been able to work something out if not for Mangini's childish behavior (Putting him in Rookie dorms, Playing him with the Second Team, ect). Was traded for fair compensation, just didn't really have a back-up plan. But, I don't really fault Tannenbaum there. I blame Mangini for exacerbating the situation until he had to leave.

Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity. Now Baker's gone without replacement, Coles is gone without replacement, I dunno. I seriously hope this new CS is dedicated to drafting and developing young players. Otherwise we're just the Redskins II.

We have a core, It's players like Rhodes, Revis, Harris, Pace, Jenkins, Ellis and now Scott on Defense. It's players like Faneca, Mangold, Ferguson, Cotchery, TJones, LWashington, and Keller on Offense.

We have an identity now, it's the smashmouth aggressive defense and ball control offense.

[AdropOFvenom]

Penny--had to be worth a sixth rounder at least--no?

Pennington had negative trade value with his contract. No chance we were getting anything for him, as no team wanted any part of that contract.

[#27TheDominator]

you do understand that drafted players get paid as well ? the steelers shelled out huge coin for hines ward. the pats* gave seymour and brady their own money printing presses

I'm really not sure how you can say a player is less valuable simply because of how they were acquired

I like tanny's approach, look under every rock to improve the roster.

+1. The "knothead moves" that had us "right up against the salary cap" were made with drafted players. Robertson and Pennington were ridiculously overpaid and that's what created the hell. That and Martin's contract, but he wasn't drafted so I guess he wasn't a building block.

[JustInFudge]

bothered by all these expensive free agaency aquisitions. Raining on the parade. Stick in the mud. I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's. When I think of our lack of continuity in the coaching staff and player personnel, it's no wonder our seasons have been so erratic. Just think of how many Jets are playing well for other teams right now, as we pay through the nose for free agents, who should really be plugging holes instead of making up the bulk of the squad. Kareem McKenzie was a Jet, James Farrior, Derrick Ward (undrafted and dumped for free) Johnathan Vilma, John Abraham, Chad Pennington (no compensation, bad outcome), Pete Kendall...I could go on. Certainly not all players could have been kept--but a core should remain intact. An Identity. Now Baker's gone without replacement, Coles is gone without replacement, I dunno. I seriously hope this new CS is dedicated to drafting and developing young players. Otherwise we're just the Redskins II.

The Jets havent exactly had the best drafting history. Really not until recenlty has that changed.

What are we supposed to do with all the holes in our line up? Just leave them empy and hope we finally make the right choice in the draft that only comes around once a year and the probability of getting a player of value in each round is almost impossible.

The Steelers are the only team that I can think of that dont sing FA's and are competitive year in year out. The Pats sign FA's every year.

[Sperm Edwards]

FA's are what built the team in the late 90's. They're what got us 30 minutes from a superbowl (and is the best success this sorry franchise has had in the last 39 years). We sure as hell weren't starting 20+ of our draft picks on offense & defense. Now that I look at it, since I never cared before, less than half of the starters on offense & less than half the starters on defense were Jets as rookies...

Offense (6) - none of these 1998 starters were drafted by the Jets:

Testaverde

Martin

Byars

Jumbo

Burger

Mawae

Defense (7) - none of these 1998 starters were drafted by the Jets:

Lyle

Logan

Pleasant

Pepper

Cox

Otis

J.Henderson

Plus other roster spots for...

Brian Hansen

Dwayne Gordon

Rob Holmberg

John Hudson

Dave Meggett

Jerald Sowell

By comparison, the 2009 Jets team is more "homegrown" than the 1998 team that got us as closer than any Jets team's gone in my lifetime. So the notion that going this route has some type of maximum ceiling of being an 8-9 win Redskins team is selective memory to say the least.

[Sperm Edwards]

2001 New England...not drafted by the Patriots:

Offense:

HB - A.Smith

RB - M.Edwards

WR - D.Patten

TE - J.Wiggins

LG - M.Compton

RG - J.Andruzzi

Defense:

DE - B.Hamilton

DT - A.Pleasant

LB - M.Vrabel

LB - B.Cox

LB - R.Phifer

CB - Otis

Plus...

Ken Walter

Matt Stevens

Terrell Buckley

Rob Holmberg

Grey Ruegamer

Je'Rod Cherry

Charles Johnson

Terrance Shaw

Larry Izzo

Seems to me 40% of their 53-man roster & most of their starters were brought in via FA or trades.

[Sperm Edwards]

2003 Panthers: 11 of their 22 SB starters (13 of 24 if you count kicker/punter) from FA or trades

Offense

QB - Delhomme

HB - S.Davis

TE - Wiggins

LT - Steussie

LG - J.James

C - J.Mitchell

RG - K.Donnalley

Defense

DT - B.Buckner

LB - G.Favors

CB - T.Cousin

CB - R.Howard

K - J.Kasay

P - T.Sauerbrun

Brian L. Allen

Shane Burton

Mike Caldwell

Jarrod Cooper

Jason Kyle

Rodney Peete

Ricky Proehl

Travares Tillman

Al Wallace

Matt Willig

[The Paranoid Jet]

While there have been some pretty effective slam dunks against sirlance's argument in this thread, I just wanted to add another thunderous finish.

Sirlance, you mentioned that one downside to building a team based on players who had been acquired via free agency versus players who had been drafted was that the free agent players were less likely to participate as team players. They are, as you described them, mercenaries, and thus you posited that you might be able to have the best players without having the best team; you could Maddenize a free agent all-star spectacular, but according to you this team would fall flat because of the lack of a cohesive team concept.

Since you levied this claim against free agents, you must evidently feel that drafted players would not suffer such a fate. But what is it about being drafted by a team that would magically make a 22 year old feel loyal to an organization and instantly become more interested in contributing to a franchise on a basis of supporting the team? Is it some analog of imprinting? Like, when they put on the hat for the team that chose them is it like a baby chick thing, where they associate the first living thing they see as their mother? I guess that would explain why Chad Pennington is forever loyal to the Jets and would certainly never ever beat them in a week 17 matchup.

Look - sometimes I'm frustrated by the mercenary nature of pro ball too. But it's a pervasive thing. Just because you got drafted by a team doesn't mean you will necessarily feel any sort of loyalty towards that organization or towards the teammates who are playing for that organization - many of whom will have been brought in through not only the draft but also through free agency. Add that fact to the overwhelming body of evidence that other posters have produced and I'd go forward to say that you don't have a leg to stand on.

[sirlancemehlot]

While there have been some pretty effective slam dunks against sirlance's argument in this thread, I just wanted to add another thunderous finish.

Sirlance, you mentioned that one downside to building a team based on players who had been acquired via free agency versus players who had been drafted was that the free agent players were less likely to participate as team players. They are, as you described them, mercenaries, and thus you posited that you might be able to have the best players without having the best team; you could Maddenize a free agent all-star spectacular, but according to you this team would fall flat because of the lack of a cohesive team concept.

Since you levied this claim against free agents, you must evidently feel that drafted players would not suffer such a fate. But what is it about being drafted by a team that would magically make a 22 year old feel loyal to an organization and instantly become more interested in contributing to a franchise on a basis of supporting the team? Is it some analog of imprinting? Like, when they put on the hat for the team that chose them is it like a baby chick thing, where they associate the first living thing they see as their mother? I guess that would explain why Chad Pennington is forever loyal to the Jets and would certainly never ever beat them in a week 17 matchup.

Look - sometimes I'm frustrated by the mercenary nature of pro ball too. But it's a pervasive thing. Just because you got drafted by a team doesn't mean you will necessarily feel any sort of loyalty towards that organization or towards the teammates who are playing for that organization - many of whom will have been brought in through not only the draft but also through free agency. Add that fact to the overwhelming body of evidence that other posters have produced and I'd go forward to say that you don't have a leg to stand on.

But I do have a leg to stand on. We lost five in a row (hard to consider that Buffalo game a victory) last season to some of the worst teams in the league.The Pats and Steelers have a team unity and cohesiveness that would never allow such an embarrassing slide. They have players that have taken less money to stay with their squad (a certain Steelers Guard comes to mind.) What they have more than anything is a team built by a single, solid coach for several years ( Pit is no exception--Cowher built that team). We haven't had that swagger or cohesiveness since the Parcells era. Perhaps there is a difference with Ryan as he seems to have players willing to jump through hoops for him. Perhaps that's a good starting point--but what good will it do when Woody fires him after two years and the next coach cuts all of his players and buys up a bunch of new ones at a premium? You (all) seem to think that this thread is of a single-minded knock on free agency in general. That would be asinine. I'm not that stupid. The knock is the use or overuse of FA by this team which has had negative ramifications. Brett Favre was never a Jet. Never. He played for cash and stats. This is often the case with older, established guys looking for a last payday. Hopefully some of the younger FA's like Scott and Pace can grow into leadership roles and become a part of core group. But I'd rather we'd groomed such players ourselves rather than skim them off other teams.

[SMC]

Sperm Edwards is the FREAKIN' KING in this thread debunking the OP's premise (saves me from debating the OP ).

Bravo, SE. Great job!!!

[jimfire]

Sperm Edwards is the FREAKIN' KING in this thread debunking the OP's premise (saves me from debating the OP ).

Bravo, SE. Great job!!!

Sperm NEVER disappoints. always right on the money.

[sirlancemehlot]

Sperm Edwards is the FREAKIN' KING in this thread debunking the OP's premise (saves me from debating the OP ).

Bravo, SE. Great job!!!

It's hard being hated.

[Aten]

But I'd rather we'd groomed such players ourselves rather than skim them off other teams.

The problem is that we had one head coach who was notoriously averse to giving younger guys a shot followed by another who completely blew up the roster, so we simply don't have such players at the ready. So what do we do? Fill the holes or leave them there?