Vicious89x Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It's hard being hated. Then stop whining sirwhinemehlot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 The problem is that we had one head coach who was notoriously averse to giving younger guys a shot followed by another who completely blew up the roster, so we simply don't have such players at the ready. So what do we do? Fill the holes or leave them there? No, you keep the coach that was at the helm during the unconscionable "five" game slide because the only reason that happens is lack of unity and cohesion and lack of cohesion comes from changing coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 The problem is that we had one head coach who was notoriously averse to giving younger guys a shot followed by another who completely blew up the roster, so we simply don't have such players at the ready. So what do we do? Fill the holes or leave them there? agree 100% much of my argument is based on this fact entirely. Herm never gave a youngster a chance and could't develop a project. Mangini was running scared (and for good reason) and didn't have the luxury of long-term player development. Al Groh lasted a season. Pete Carroll never had a shot. Ryan has never been an HC so he's an unknown at this point. Bottom line--Wayne Chrebet would never have made any of these teams. It's up to the FO to commit to building a team for the long-haul, and that starts with belief in coaches in players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 It's hard being hated. LOL. Sorry about your Pops. I know there was an emotional correllation between what was going on with your father and the Jets collapse and, thus, the OP was done with emotion father than rational thinking. That's why I didn't want to pile on. But I believe your anger (from a football standpoint) is best focused on Mangini. None of the 7 Jet probowlers led the voting in the fan category. Thus, the reason they were selected was because of the players and coaches voting (Probowl voting is split 3 ways among fans/players/coaches). In other words, the NFL believed that the Jets were a talented team. As such, the failure to make the postseason with a team which the NFL believes is talented is an indictment of the HC and his staff. The Jets had issues, but so did many other teams. They also had talent and Mangini failed to maximize that talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 agree 100% much of my argument is based on this fact entirely. Herm never gave a youngster a chance and could't develop a project. Mangini was running scared (and for good reason) and didn't have the luxury of long-term player development. Al Groh lasted a season. Pete Carroll never had a shot. Ryan has never been an HC so he's an unknown at this point. Bottom line--Wayne Chrebet would never have made any of these teams. It's up to the FO to commit to building a team for the long-haul, and that starts with belief in coaches in players. Again, you're making a false correllation. Belief in coaches & players DOES NOT equal success. Belief in good coaches & good players equals success. Mangini & Herm were not good HCs. So to stick with them just to stick with them is silly. Bradway was not a good GM, but to his defense he was saddled with a different salary cap situation. The salary cap in his days was much tighter league wide than it is today. When he was GM, the most you heard a team was under the cap was $8 to $10 million at the start of FA. Now, as we all know, it's not uncommon to see teams with $25 to even $40 million in cap space. Bradway also made the mistake of allowing his players to have a significant say in who stays and who goes. For instance (according to reports), Bradway signed Chrebet to a big extension because Vinny wanted Chrebet to stay. What did that do? Coles was approaching RFA, and then prevented Bradway from extending Coles. Bradway then did the same thing to Fabini, which eventually affected the ability to re-sign McKenzie. So the Jets were in the bad position of letting younger players go to retain older players. A similar situation happened with Chad. The Jets were forced to sign Chad to a big money deal (he had them over the barrel), but because his main target in Coles was gone, Bradway wanted to bring him back for Chad and traded Santana. Bradway was also a poor recruiter of FAs. PLUS, even before Bradway, Parcells was a real crappy drafter. The Jets didn't have a team of good draft picks like other teams, Bradway was a bad recruiter, and the Jets didn't have the cap space because of the extensions to Chrebet, Chad, Martin, Mawae, and Fabini. That's a bad recipe for sustained success. Tannenbaum is doing the only thing he can do for success. He can't just believe in continuity for continuity sake. He has to retain the Herm holdovers, draft well, and completely revampt the FA and trade protocal of Bradway's. As such, while Bradway's "big" FA signings or trades were Barton, Barret, Tongue & McCraphands, Tanny's big signings or trades were Jenkins, Pace, Scott, Farve, and Leonhard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 But I do have a leg to stand on. We lost five in a row (hard to consider that Buffalo game a victory) last season to some of the worst teams in the league.The Pats and Steelers have a team unity and cohesiveness that would never allow such an embarrassing slide. They have players that have taken less money to stay with their squad (a certain Steelers Guard comes to mind.) What they have more than anything is a team built by a single, solid coach for several years ( Pit is no exception--Cowher built that team). We haven't had that swagger or cohesiveness since the Parcells era. Perhaps there is a difference with Ryan as he seems to have players willing to jump through hoops for him. Perhaps that's a good starting point--but what good will it do when Woody fires him after two years and the next coach cuts all of his players and buys up a bunch of new ones at a premium? You (all) seem to think that this thread is of a single-minded knock on free agency in general. That would be asinine. I'm not that stupid. The knock is the use or overuse of FA by this team which has had negative ramifications. Brett Favre was never a Jet. Never. He played for cash and stats. This is often the case with older, established guys looking for a last payday. Hopefully some of the younger FA's like Scott and Pace can grow into leadership roles and become a part of core group. But I'd rather we'd groomed such players ourselves rather than skim them off other teams. My only point is that there isn't some single cause & effect that leads to unity, cohesion, etc. You are - or seem to be - arguing the point that players who were drafted by a team are more likely to be loyal to it. I don't see that happening league-wide. A lot of players move on. From the Pats, from the Steelers -- everybody. These players were drafted by Pittsburgh & NE, many of them BIG-name superstars and/or significant contributors to superbowl wins, and they still left for more money or were cut by the team outright: Damien Woody Alan Faneca Ty Law Asante Samuel Nate Washington Antwaan Randle-El Joey Porter Chad Brown Tully Banta-Cain Willie McGinest Matt Chatham Adam Vinatieri David Givens Deion Branch Mike Vrabel Joe Andruzzi David Patten Kendrell Bell Chad Scott Plaxico Burress Chris Hope Clark Haggans Lawyer Milloy Randall Gay Quite a list. Then these teams signed "mercenaries" (with varying degrees of success) like: Randy Moss Wes Welker Marcus Pollard Larry Izzo Rodney Harrison Adalius Thomas Tank Williams Jason Webster Kyle Brady Sammy Morris Lamont Jordan Donte Stallworth Anthony McFarland Mewelde Moore James Farrior Justin Hartwig Sean Mahan Cedrick Wilson Jeff Hartings Kimo von Douchebag Chris Gardocki Tyrone Carter Marc Edwards Christian Fauria Mike Compton Steve Martin Bobby Hamilton Anthony Pleasant Roman Phifer Victor Green Otis Smith Mike Vrabel Ted Washington Tyrone Poole Corey Dillon Brandon Gorin Keith Traylor Monty Beisel Rosevelt Colvin Duane Starks Tim Dwight Russ Hochstein Doug Gabriel Jabar Gaffney Reche Caldwell Artrell Hawkins Junior Seau This is just from the Pats/Steelers alone in the last bunch of seasons give or take. Are you getting the idea? A team is good because a team is good. It starts at the top with coaching. From there, either the players you have - whether they come from the draft or through free agency or through trades - are either good enough or they are not. Your anger, while understandable, is misguided. Sometimes teams acquire players they should not have. But you're applying some special venom for the Jets in particular if it's through free agency or trades. If your draft picks are not good enough, then you have to bring in help from elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 My only point is that there isn't some single cause & effect that leads to unity, cohesion, etc. You are - or seem to be - arguing the point that players who were drafted by a team are more likely to be loyal to it. I don't see that happening league-wide. A lot of players move on. From the Pats, from the Steelers -- everybody. These players were drafted by Pittsburgh & NE, many of them BIG-name superstars and/or significant contributors to superbowl wins, and they still left for more money or were cut by the team outright: Damien Woody Alan Faneca Ty Law Asante Samuel Nate Washington Antwaan Randle-El Joey Porter Chad Brown Tully Banta-Cain Willie McGinest Matt Chatham Adam Vinatieri David Givens Deion Branch Mike Vrabel Joe Andruzzi David Patten Kendrell Bell Chad Scott Plaxico Burress Chris Hope Clark Haggans Lawyer Milloy Randall Gay Quite a list. Then these teams signed "mercenaries" (with varying degrees of success) like: Randy Moss Wes Welker Marcus Pollard Larry Izzo Rodney Harrison Adalius Thomas Tank Williams Jason Webster Kyle Brady Sammy Morris Lamont Jordan Donte Stallworth Anthony McFarland Mewelde Moore James Farrior Justin Hartwig Sean Mahan Cedrick Wilson Jeff Hartings Kimo von Douchebag Chris Gardocki Tyrone Carter Marc Edwards Christian Fauria Mike Compton Steve Martin Bobby Hamilton Anthony Pleasant Roman Phifer Victor Green Otis Smith Mike Vrabel Ted Washington Tyrone Poole Corey Dillon Brandon Gorin Keith Traylor Monty Beisel Rosevelt Colvin Duane Starks Tim Dwight Russ Hochstein Doug Gabriel Jabar Gaffney Reche Caldwell Artrell Hawkins Junior Seau This is just from the Pats/Steelers alone in the last bunch of seasons give or take. Are you getting the idea? A team is good because a team is good. It starts at the top with coaching. From there, either the players you have - whether they come from the draft or through free agency or through trades - are either good enough or they are not. Your anger, while understandable, is misguided. Sometimes teams acquire players they should not have. But you're applying some special venom for the Jets in particular if it's through free agency or trades. If your draft picks are not good enough, then you have to bring in help from elsewhere. I rather enjoyed your earlier post to this one as it doesn't address the evolution of the thread. (yes, socialism and evolution in one thread, that's as close as I'll ever get to politics). Is there no validity to the fact that this team hasn't comitted to a coach in years--and therefore no coach has been able to develop talent? I was furious with Mangini, I'll admit, but perhaps a coach with three years and two winning seasons on his resume rates another season? Perhaps the revolving door at the top is the reason for a lack of home-grown talent at the bottom? I'm not speaking from anger when I say that there is far too much flux and we spend far too much money on aging vets to ever develop a team concept here. If you would indulge me, I'm not quite the stat. guy you are (you are definately proficient with statistics) what are the contracts of the last two seasons FA's? How many other teams have had as many coaches as we have in the last two decades? There is a correlation here I believe. Parcells developed some talent for sure, (See: chrebet and R. Lucas), and he changed the culture of this squad while he was here. But beyond him, there hasn't been a commitment to the HC since Weeb (and as such no continuity of player development, team development or personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 Then stop whining sirwhinemehlot. I'm just doing my part for Jetnation poster unity. It's nice to see so many come together in agreement that my op was completely wrong, stupid and insignificant. Ahh, good times! It's like a family brought closer together by tragedy. Too bad I'm the tragedy. Next post--mother jokes. You guys can all pile on then like never before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I rather enjoyed your earlier post to this one as it doesn't address the evolution of the thread. (yes, socialism and evolution in one thread, that's as close as I'll ever get to politics). Is there no validity to the fact that this team hasn't comitted to a coach in years--and therefore no coach has been able to develop talent? I was furious with Mangini, I'll admit, but perhaps a coach with three years and two winning seasons on his resume rates another season? Perhaps the revolving door at the top is the reason for a lack of home-grown talent at the bottom? I'm not speaking from anger when I say that there is far too much flux and we spend far too much money on aging vets to ever develop a team concept here. If you would indulge me, I'm not quite the stat. guy you are (you are definately proficient with statistics) what are the contracts of the last two seasons FA's? How many other teams have had as many coaches as we have in the last two decades? There is a correlation here I believe. Parcells developed some talent for sure, (See: chrebet and R. Lucas), and he changed the culture of this squad while he was here. But beyond him, there hasn't been a commitment to the HC since Weeb (and as such no continuity of player development, team development or personality. There is no validity. In the first instance, Groh and Herm forced there way out so how could Woody commit to them? As to Mangini, the 2 out of 3 winning seasons argument is pure nonsense. The man had a career losing record and had one good streak in his career (7-1) and in the other 41 games he coached he was a woeful 16-25. Plus, the players showed no life for him and he created a bad working environment at Florham Park according to reports. He presided over an epic collapse and deserved to be fired. He was in the last year of his contract for 2009 and he was not going to be a lame duck. As to the number of HCs in the last 2 decades, everything changed with Parcells. So for Coslet, Kottite, & Carroll, who cares? If these HCs would have won games they would have been here longer. Since Parcells, the Jets were with Herm for 5 years and Mangini for 3, and neither ended up with winning records. How long does an owner have to wait for sustained success? And back to "committment to HC" argument. I really don't see what you're getting at. Groh and Herm wanted to leave. Mangini was not qualified to be a HC when he was hired. Woody did it because he wanted to catch lighting in a bottle. Finally, you keep making the mistake that continuity in and of itself is a good thing. It's not. Continuity with good HCs and good players is the key. Look at the Lions. The Lions had continuity with Matt Milen. How did that work out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 The Lions had continuity with Matt Milen. How did that work out? not good. not good at all. last point as the accumulation of blows has me woozy (never let it be said Sirlance can't take a punch) On overspending: Scott cost us a lot of money. when the ravens began developing him, he was undrafted and therefore quite inexpensive. they got some excellent cost-effective years from him and released him when the price got too high. Then we bought him. On dumping good players: Baker got snatched up by a rival, Penny the same--we got no compensation in either case. On bad moves: Kendall dumped for a $1mil dsicrepancy in contract. Team collapses. Replacement Faneca is hired as the highest paid interior lineman in the NFL. The upgrade is minimal, the cost is phenomenal. On bad drafts: We gave up draft pick(s) for Favre, who quit leaving us with no QB. Packers now have more picks. We now have a quandry. We trade up for D. Robertson (2 firsts and fourth) and trade him away for free after paying him a king's ransom. Gholston. Just Gholston. We give up pick(s) for Lito. our best choices have been middle rounders (Lowery, Washington, Coles-3rd, etc.). yet we give them away for a guy that Iggles fans think was atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Paranoid Jet Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I rather enjoyed your earlier post to this one as it doesn't address the evolution of the thread. (yes, socialism and evolution in one thread, that's as close as I'll ever get to politics). Is there no validity to the fact that this team hasn't comitted to a coach in years--and therefore no coach has been able to develop talent? I was furious with Mangini, I'll admit, but perhaps a coach with three years and two winning seasons on his resume rates another season? Perhaps the revolving door at the top is the reason for a lack of home-grown talent at the bottom? I'm not speaking from anger when I say that there is far too much flux and we spend far too much money on aging vets to ever develop a team concept here. If you would indulge me, I'm not quite the stat. guy you are (you are definately proficient with statistics) what are the contracts of the last two seasons FA's? How many other teams have had as many coaches as we have in the last two decades? There is a correlation here I believe. Parcells developed some talent for sure, (See: chrebet and R. Lucas), and he changed the culture of this squad while he was here. But beyond him, there hasn't been a commitment to the HC since Weeb (and as such no continuity of player development, team development or personality. I understand what you're saying and so does SE. While it's an interesting proposition it's been pretty conclusively proven however that the correlation you propose between drafting players and producing team continuity doesn't seem to exist in any tangible way. With such a correlation not being subsequently visible it's pretty hard to agree with you. Also - you cite Parcells as an example of a head coach to whom there was commitment and for whom there was continuity in player development, but you do remember that Parcells was only here for three years, right? Maybe the problem isn't a complex of continuity over time but rather a more simple issue with quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 The Lions had continuity with Matt Milen. How did that work out? not good. not good at all. last point as the accumulation of blows has me woozy (never let it be said Sirlance can't take a punch) I could point to those same player moves and draw comparisons with what we've done that would NOT put a negative spin on it: On overspending: Scott cost us a lot of money. when the ravens began developing him, he was undrafted and therefore quite inexpensive. they got some excellent cost-effective years from him and released him when the price got too high. Then we bought him. In an earlier post you pointed out that we "lost" Kareem McKenzie. How is it when someone overpays for one of our players we "lost" him but when another team does the same thing (with us outbidding them), it's drawn you ire? On dumping good players: Baker got snatched up by a rival, Penny the same--we got no compensation in either case. First of all, Baker isn't all that. He's fine. He's not the punishing blocker some make him out to be. His "best hands on the team" crap is just that, as he blew a game with a drop of a perfect pass in space. He's as slow as a pregnant hippo. In summary, he was not worth $9M guaranteed. Second of all, look at the list of good players "dumped" by the two teams you portray as the model by which all teams should seek to emulate. They "dumped" a lot of players who were a hell of a lot better than Chris Baker. On bad moves: Kendall dumped for a $1mil dsicrepancy in contract. Team collapses. Replacement Faneca is hired as the highest paid interior lineman in the NFL. The upgrade is minimal, the cost is phenomenal. The crap with Kendall was embarrassing as a Jets fan. They looked stupid and spiteful, which is a bad combination. I don't feel Faneca at age 32 is only a mild upgrade over Kendall at age 35 (let alone what the future will bring for each over the next 3-4 years). Kendall was a good guard. Not great & never was. He is a good pass-blocker (better than Faneca anyway), but gets very little push in the running game. If power-running is what you want, Pete Kendall is not your man. He's not all that, no matter how many people here (who don't concentrate on the LG position in every Redskins game) say he's "elite" which is laughable. It's also not cut & dry. Kendall had just gotten a new deal the prior off-season & now wanted more a year later. I hate that crap. My only issue was the way Tannenbaum & Mangini myopically did nothing to replace him in free agency in March, or in the draft a month & a half later. And then they let him go while we inserted Adrien Clarke. It was not a proud moment as a Jets fan. On bad drafts: We gave up draft pick(s) for Favre, who quit leaving us with no QB. Packers now have more picks. We now have a quandry. We trade up for D. Robertson (2 firsts and fourth) and trade him away for free after paying him a king's ransom. Gholston. Just Gholston. We give up pick(s) for Lito. our best choices have been middle rounders (Lowery, Washington, Coles-3rd, etc.). yet we give them away for a guy that Iggles fans think was atrocious. Favre is a unique animal. You're not going to get someone like him for nothing. His quitting, as you put it, is in our best interest, as his time has passed. But when we got him, he was coming off one of his better seasons. It didn't work out. So we move on. D.Robertson was just utter stupidity. It was stupid then and it's stupid in hindsight. No draft pick, except MAYBE a premiere QB prospect, is worth two firsts & a fourth. Jump ahead 5 years & we traded him for nothing because that's what his trade value was with that contract: nothing. Gholston was a bad pick. If he turns out good, then bully for us. But when a guy gets a contract like that, he's expected to see the field every year full-time, not be eased in a little bit in year two (if that even happens). He makes too much money to sit on the bench. Lito Sheppard was traded for a 5th rounder and nothing more at this point. Here is the list of the last Jets 5th rounders since 1990: Robert McWright, Tony Savage, Cal Dixon, Kenny Shedd, Adrian Murrell, Fred Baxter, Horace Morris, Carl Greenwood, Marcus Coleman, Raymond Austin, Lamont Burns, Eric Bateman, Blake Spence, Doug Karczewski, Casey Dailey, Jermaine Jones, Windrell Hayes, Jonathan Goodwin, Matt Walters, Derek Pagel, Erik Coleman, Andre Maddox, Jason Pociask, and Eric Ainge. So basically Murrell, a couple of mediocre Colemans, the great Fred Baxter, and 18 shmo's that most people never heard of. If you go back another 20 years prior, to 1970, there's Tony Martin and 23 more shmo's. Lito Sheppard is better than anyone we've drafted in round 5 in a hell of a long time. 2008 he had a lot of issues with the team & it clearly affected his play. The year before he was in the pro bowl (his 2nd time in his short career). The odds of finding someone with his talent - at the NFL level - is pretty damn slim to say the least. Coles was a day-one pick. There is an enormous difference between that and a mid-5th round pick. Lowery was awful as a rookie. Yes, he was only a rookie, but he was just terrible. I hope he gets better, but that hope does not cloud judgment to the point of betting the season on it. Same thing with Jenkins. In our wildest dreams, and only in our wildest dreams, would we end up with a player of his caliber using a single 3rd round pick and a single 5th round pick. And regarding the cost of all these players, their cost is not affecting us doing things we want, so in their absence we'd have two things: unused cap room and 7 holes in the starting lineups that would be filled with the likes of Dwight Lowery, Sione Pouha, Eric Smith, and Anthony Schlegel. ...and I'm not doing this to try to make you look bad. I actually enjoy this, loser that I am. 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bobbyjet69 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 2003 Panthers: 11 of their 22 SB starters (13 of 24 if you count kicker/punter) from FA or trades Offense QB - Delhomme HB - S.Davis TE - Wiggins LT - Steussie LG - J.James C - J.Mitchell RG - K.Donnalley Defense DT - B.Buckner LB - G.Favors CB - T.Cousin CB - R.Howard K - J.Kasay P - T.Sauerbrun Brian L. Allen Shane Burton Mike Caldwell Jarrod Cooper Jason Kyle Rodney Peete Ricky Proehl Travares Tillman Al Wallace Matt Willig thanks Sperm, I'm so sick of people saying how these teams are built through the draft! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 I could point to those same player moves and draw comparisons with what we've done that would NOT put a negative spin on it: In an earlier post you pointed out that we "lost" Kareem McKenzie. How is it when someone overpays for one of our players we "lost" him but when another team does the same thing (with us outbidding them), it's drawn you ire? On dumping good players: Baker got snatched up by a rival, Penny the same--we got no compensation in either case. First of all, Baker isn't all that. He's fine. He's not the punishing blocker some make him out to be. His "best hands on the team" crap is just that, as he blew a game with a drop of a perfect pass in space. He's as slow as a pregnant hippo. In summary, he was not worth $9M guaranteed. Second of all, look at the list of good players "dumped" by the two teams you portray as the model by which all teams should seek to emulate. They "dumped" a lot of players who were a hell of a lot better than Chris Baker. The crap with Kendall was embarrassing as a Jets fan. They looked stupid and spiteful, which is a bad combination. I don't feel Faneca at age 32 is only a mild upgrade over Kendall at age 35 (let alone what the future will bring for each over the next 3-4 years). Kendall was a good guard. Not great & never was. He is a good pass-blocker (better than Faneca anyway), but gets very little push in the running game. If power-running is what you want, Pete Kendall is not your man. He's not all that, no matter how many people here (who don't concentrate on the LG position in every Redskins game) say he's "elite" which is laughable. It's also not cut & dry. Kendall had just gotten a new deal the prior off-season & now wanted more a year later. I hate that crap. My only issue was the way Tannenbaum & Mangini myopically did nothing to replace him in free agency in March, or in the draft a month & a half later. And then they let him go while we inserted Adrien Clarke. It was not a proud moment as a Jets fan. Favre is a unique animal. You're not going to get someone like him for nothing. His quitting, as you put it, is in our best interest, as his time has passed. But when we got him, he was coming off one of his better seasons. It didn't work out. So we move on. D.Robertson was just utter stupidity. It was stupid then and it's stupid in hindsight. No draft pick, except MAYBE a premiere QB prospect, is worth two firsts & a fourth. Jump ahead 5 years & we traded him for nothing because that's what his trade value was with that contract: nothing. Gholston was a bad pick. If he turns out good, then bully for us. But when a guy gets a contract like that, he's expected to see the field every year full-time, not be eased in a little bit in year two (if that even happens). He makes too much money to sit on the bench. Lito Sheppard was traded for a 5th rounder and nothing more at this point. Here is the list of the last Jets 5th rounders since 1990: Robert McWright, Tony Savage, Cal Dixon, Kenny Shedd, Adrian Murrell, Fred Baxter, Horace Morris, Carl Greenwood, Marcus Coleman, Raymond Austin, Lamont Burns, Eric Bateman, Blake Spence, Doug Karczewski, Casey Dailey, Jermaine Jones, Windrell Hayes, Jonathan Goodwin, Matt Walters, Derek Pagel, Erik Coleman, Andre Maddox, Jason Pociask, and Eric Ainge. So basically Murrell, a couple of mediocre Colemans, the great Fred Baxter, and 18 shmo's that most people never heard of. If you go back another 20 years prior, to 1970, there's Tony Martin and 23 more shmo's. Lito Sheppard is better than anyone we've drafted in round 5 in a hell of a long time. 2008 he had a lot of issues with the team & it clearly affected his play. The year before he was in the pro bowl (his 2nd time in his short career). The odds of finding someone with his talent - at the NFL level - is pretty damn slim to say the least. Coles was a day-one pick. There is an enormous difference between that and a mid-5th round pick. Lowery was awful as a rookie. Yes, he was only a rookie, but he was just terrible. I hope he gets better, but that hope does not cloud judgment to the point of betting the season on it. Same thing with Jenkins. In our wildest dreams, and only in our wildest dreams, would we end up with a player of his caliber using a single 3rd round pick and a single 5th round pick. And regarding the cost of all these players, their cost is not affecting us doing things we want, so in their absence we'd have two things: unused cap room and 7 holes in the starting lineups that would be filled with the likes of Dwight Lowery, Sione Pouha, Eric Smith, and Anthony Schlegel. ...and I'm not doing this to try to make you look bad. I actually enjoy this, loser that I am. never accused you of trying to make me look bad. You make a good argument with intelligent posts slanted to highlight your opinion. This is what quality posters do. At the very least differing opinions spark debate and lead to better understanding on a given issue or in this case, several issues. It beats the hell out of a hand-face smiley or "I agree with the last guy that your an idiot" posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 never accused you of trying to make me look bad. You make a good argument with intelligent posts slanted to highlight your opinion. This is what quality posters do. At the very least differing opinions spark debate and lead to better understanding on a given issue or in this case, several issues. It beats the hell out of a hand-face smiley or "I agree with the last guy that your an idiot" posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 I hate you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 an old thread from march, just curious to see what opinions, if any, have changed in the past nine months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupz27 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 an old thread from march, just curious to see what opinions, if any, have changed in the past nine months. I wasnt here in March but its not the FA's that bother me it is the trading away of the draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 an old thread from march, just curious to see what opinions, if any, have changed in the past nine months. None. As of right now, we have a young core of Mangold, Brick, Sanchez, Greene, Washington, Keller, Cotchery and Edwards on offense (need to resign Washington and Edwards). All but Edwards were drafted here, and that list includes both starting WRs, two RBs, the starting QB, starting TE, starting LT and starting C. Brandon Moore is a Jets draft pick, but not a "core" player. Starters not young and drafted by the team? Edwards, Faneca, Woody, Richardson, Thomas Jones. 6/11 starters on O were drafted by the Jets, and a seventh was traded for just entering his prime. On D, we have a young/prime core of Revis, Harris, Rhodes, Leonhard, Scott and Pace. Here, only 3 core starters in their prime were drafted by the team. Then there's Bryan Thomas, who's a decent player, Sean Ellis, who is on the downside of an excellent career, and Mike Devito, the up and comer. You can add Lowery and Drew Coleman into that mix, I suppose. Not tremendous . . . but given how good the D has been this year, can you really complain? I don't think so. The bottom line is we need to add young, impact players on D and general depth through the next few drafts, but this team is in a good spot, overall, going forward with the core players it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 an old thread from march, just curious to see what opinions, if any, have changed in the past nine months. I hate Favre more than I did in March. Does that count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted November 25, 2009 Author Share Posted November 25, 2009 I hate Favre more than I did in March. Does that count? Not really--I think we all need to hate Brett Favre more than we did in March. It's the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Good teams are built with good players. Doesn't much matter how you get them. It's funny that while you are listing how to build a team you mention guys the Jets drafted that were raided. Do you think the fans of those teams are complaining they signed our FAs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetscode1 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I hate Favre more than I did in March. Does that count? Not really--I think we all need to hate Brett Favre more than we did in March. It's the right thing to do. Still can't hate Favre...ultimately he helped us get rid of Penny and Mangini...guess we could have kept him another year...maybe he would demanded Schotty move on. Kinda of ironic how his biggest locker room detractor (Rhodes), who called him out for his unwillingness to attend all the OTAs and training camp is now on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aec4 Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I believe solid teams like the Pats and Steelers are built for the long haul by retaining solid players and not overpaying FA's. Adalius Thomas was not overpaid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visajets Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I miss Reggie Barlow---------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentos Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 I miss Reggie Barlow---------- Why? I think I started him one time on my fantasy team in 1998 when I had my top two WRs out on byes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyno-Tony Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 None. As of right now, we have a young core of Mangold, Brick, Sanchez, Greene, Washington, Keller, Cotchery and Edwards on offense (need to resign Washington and Edwards). All but Edwards were drafted here, and that list includes both starting WRs, two RBs, the starting QB, starting TE, starting LT and starting C. Brandon Moore is a Jets draft pick, but not a "core" player. Starters not young and drafted by the team? Edwards, Faneca, Woody, Richardson, Thomas Jones. 6/11 starters on O were drafted by the Jets, and a seventh was traded for just entering his prime. On D, we have a young/prime core of Revis, Harris, Rhodes, Leonhard, Scott and Pace. Here, only 3 core starters in their prime were drafted by the team. Then there's Bryan Thomas, who's a decent player, Sean Ellis, who is on the downside of an excellent career, and Mike Devito, the up and comer. You can add Lowery and Drew Coleman into that mix, I suppose. Not tremendous . . . but given how good the D has been this year, can you really complain? I don't think so. The bottom line is we need to add young, impact players on D and general depth through the next few drafts, but this team is in a good spot, overall, going forward with the core players it has. none? you on Craxx? Rhodes is hot garbage on a summers day. we need players and bangers at safety!!! Leonhard aint lighten noones **** up either. Edwards? Edwards and that hefty contract is GONE. We draft bangers and WRs, and we light up the league on FIIIIIIIIYAAAAAA!!! We got a good core for 4-6 and bein ocre. We need to take it to the next level! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirlancemehlot Posted January 2, 2012 Author Share Posted January 2, 2012 . the writing was on the wall years ago. fun time capsule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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