lets have another Sanchez argument

[CTM]

I never said that you crackhead.

You made like 4 posts sayign why sanchez was preferrable, i'm trying to sort through your verbal diarrhea to get to your point. Which almost predictably you roll away from when presented with the harsh reality of how inane it looks..

[dbatesman]

Yeah I agree...which is why it's hard to argue with people who've already had their mind made up.

Baseball is a lot more concrete than football is. If Sanchez throws for 26 td's and 7 ints this year...then what?

As a presumptive member of the minds-made-up club, I'll allow that it's a legitimately interesting hypothetical, especially since we already have more than enough information to answer the question "if Sanchez continues to put up garbage statistics...then what?"

[Matt39]

As a presumptive member of the minds-made-up club, I'll allow that it's a legitimately interesting hypothetical, especially since we already have more than enough information to answer the question "if Sanchez continues to put up garbage statistics...then what?"

If the Jets keep winning football games, who cares? Simms put up garbage stats and he's a pretty big figure in this city and happened to win a Super Bowl.

You seem to root for the FO stats to prove true, more so than the actual team. I cant imagine sports being fun that way.

The chance that Sanchez could turn out to be a good QB is the fun part of being a fan.

And I cant realistically say, two season's, at 23 are enough to pass judgement and say he sucks.

[SMC]

As a presumptive member of the minds-made-up club, I'll allow that it's a legitimately interesting hypothetical, especially since we already have more than enough information to answer the question "if Sanchez continues to put up garbage statistics...then what?"

But that's the problem with your whole "minds-made-up" part.

"What if Sanchez doesn't improve?" That's the basis of your entire argument. And, no, we don't have any information that supports that question.

It is a fact that Sanchez has improved in every statistical category from his 1st season. To believe that he won't improve is ridiculous. He's already provided evidence that he can and has improved. What is to say that he won't continue to do so?

[dbatesman]

You seem to root for the FO stats to prove true, more so than the actual team.

Right. I desperately want our franchise QB to fail so that Aaron Schatz will be right about something.

"What if Sanchez doesn't improve?" That's the basis of your entire argument. And, no, we don't have any information that supports that question.

No, my argument is solely a response to the question "If Sanchez throws for 26 td's and 7 ints this year...then what?", i.e., we have precisely as much evidence that he'll permanently plateau at 17 TDs and 13 INTs as we do that he'll suddenly transmogrify into a 26/6 player.

It is a fact that Sanchez has improved in every statistical category from his 1st season. To believe that he won't improve is ridiculous. He's already provided evidence that he can and has improved. What is to say that he won't continue to do so?

Nothing at all, which is why I've never once argued that it's impossible or even improbable that Sanchez will continue to improve.

[SMC]

No, my argument is solely a response to the question "If Sanchez throws for 26 td's and 7 ints this year...then what?", i.e., we have precisely as much evidence that he'll permanently plateau at 17 TDs and 13 INTs as we do that he'll suddenly transmogrify into a 26/6 player.

But this is another problem with your argument. There is no evidence that Sanchez will "permanently plateau at 17 TDs and 13 INTs."

Sanchez improved his TDs by 5 and INTs by 7 last year. Let's say he has an improvement of 3 in both. That's 20 TDs and 10 INTs. Is that "garbage" statistics?

[dbatesman]

There is no evidence that Sanchez will "permanently plateau at 17 TDs and 13 INTs."

Exactly.

Sanchez improved his TDs by 5 and INTs by 7 last year. Let's say he has an improvement of 3 in both. That's 20 TDs and 10 INTs. Is that "garbage" statistics?

You randomly making up numbers? I'd say that's the definition of a garbage statistic.

[Larz]

I like how sanchez bounces back from a bad game or a big hit, but he was handed a team with a very good defense, offensive line, running game and ST's. on top of that, the jets traded for holmes and edwards and thn got LT for him

you could make the case most other starting QB's win a ring with that team around them

best you can say about sanchez right now is he seems to be progressing in spite of his OC being retarded

[SMC]

You randomly making up numbers? I'd say that's the definition of a garbage statistic.

Randomly making up numbers? No. That's a gradual improvement in line with other QBs.

You state that Sanchez has had "garbage statistics" hence, my question to you.

[dbatesman]

Randomly making up numbers? No. That's a gradual improvement in line with other QBs.

You state that Sanchez has had "garbage statistics" hence, my question to you.

I don't know what you want me to say here. A 20TD/10INT season would be great, but it's a hypothetical, so beyond just saying "a 20TD/10INT season would be great," the only answers I can offer would be similarly hypothetical (What if one of the WRs signs elsewhere? What if the shoulder starts acting up? What if all those dropped INTs become actual INTs?) and similarly pointless. And anyway we've gone entirely off the rails here. My argument has nothing to do with Sanchez qua Sanchez and everything to do with the apparently widespread belief that asking "what if Sanchez suddenly becomes really awesome?" constitutes a valid argument and asking "what if he doesn't?" constitutes a betrayal of the entire fanbase.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

I don't know what you want me to say here. A 20TD/10INT season would be great, but it's a hypothetical, so beyond just saying "a 20TD/10INT season would be great," the only answers I can offer would be similarly hypothetical (What if one of the WRs signs elsewhere? What if the shoulder starts acting up? What if all those dropped INTs become actual INTs?) and similarly pointless. And anyway we've gone entirely off the rails here. My argument has nothing to do with Sanchez qua Sanchez and everything to do with the apparently widespread belief that asking "what if Sanchez suddenly becomes really awesome?" constitutes a valid argument and asking "what if he doesn't?" constitutes a betrayal of the entire fanbase.

I knew you were a Pats fan all along.

[The Crusher]

I don't know what you want me to say here. A 20TD/10INT season would be great, but it's a hypothetical, so beyond just saying "a 20TD/10INT season would be great," the only answers I can offer would be similarly hypothetical (What if one of the WRs signs elsewhere? What if the shoulder starts acting up? What if all those dropped INTs become actual INTs?) and similarly pointless. And anyway we've gone entirely off the rails here. My argument has nothing to do with Sanchez qua Sanchez and everything to do with the apparently widespread belief that asking "what if Sanchez suddenly becomes really awesome?" constitutes a valid argument and asking "what if he doesn't?" constitutes a betrayal of the entire fanbase.

I knew you were a Pats fan all along.

I see what you did their and it's awesome. Nice!!

[Barcs]

Nicely done in assembling that mighty long list of excuses.

If you want to give the QB all the praise for 4 road playoff wins, then he has to take the lion's share of the blame for not scoring a TD in 3 home games.

Nope. I'm explaining the reasons we lost. A dropped pass isn't an excuse, it's a reason. An excuse would be "the weather was bad". You can't score touchdowns dropping passes, or letting corners take the football away from you. Football is a team sport. Sanchez isn't the only reason we win or lose games. I didn't say Sanchez was entirely responsible for the playoff wins, our defense was a large part of it, but driving down the field with 30 seconds to go and beating the Colts at the last second, is largely due to him (Edwards and Holmes were great too). All those last second plays he helped execute this year were him. Those were some of the few times Schotty didn't call the plays and gee, look what happens. It works out. I ain't saying the guy is god, but he is constantly improving and I expect even more improvement this year. From a guy with such little experience, what more could you ask for? A superbowl in his second year? We came very close. Home games in playoffs are nice, but the Jets are a better road team, anyways. I also feel Schotty deserves some of the blame for our impotent offense in the first half of games.

[Gainzo]

They are both young up and coming QB's. Sanchez has more skill players on offense but I will take Sanchez easily in this silly comparison. Sanchez is unique in that he is pretty average in the regular season but steps it up in the playoffs.

[JiFtheOracle]

Sorry I missed this thread.

Freeman >>> Sanchez.

We'd have won the SB if he was our QB.

[Klecko73isGod]

Sorry I missed this thread.

Freeman >>> Sanchez.

We'd have won the SB if he was our QB.

Smoke another joint.

[SenorGato]

Sorry I missed this thread.

Freeman >>> Sanchez.

We'd have won the SB if he was our QB.

I'm fairly excited to see Freeman regress this year as Sanchez continues his steady growth.

[JiFtheOracle]

I'm fairly excited to see Freeman regress this year as Sanchez continues his steady growth.

Is it easier to regress from 25-6 or grow from 17-13?

[SenorGato]

Is it easier to regress from 25-6 or grow from 17-13?

Well the improvements from season 1 to 2:

Freeman - +15 TDs / -12 INTs

Sanchez - +5 TDs / -7 INTs

My guess would be it's easier to regress...considering the extreme leap his stats made. I consider this to be especially true given that Sanchez has not only played more NFL games, but has played more high pressure NFL games. I'd be significantly more comfortable in a Freeman regression if this was baseball and not football. I'm extremely confident that Sanchez will improve.

[Klecko73isGod]

Is it easier to regress from 25-6 or grow from 17-13?

Freeman's not playing the NFC West this year. 18 of his 25 TDs came against teams with losing records, including 5 against Seattle, the team with the worst defense in the league.

[SenorGato]

Freeman's not playing the NFC West this year. 18 of his 25 TDs came against teams with losing records, including 5 against Seattle, the team with the worst defense in the league.

It only took 5 years but I finally was informed of something through a Klecko post! Huzzah!

I give Freeman props for his 2010 season, but I don't think he set the bar for the rest of his career with it...Maybe the hype bar *slaps knee.*

[CTM]

Freeman's not playing the NFC West this year. 18 of his 25 TDs came against teams with losing records, including 5 against Seattle, the team with the worst defense in the league.

and sanchez lead the league in dropped int's

[SenorGato]

and sanchez lead the league in dropped int's

So I guess it comes down to what you're into...Freeman saw a big jump in production possibly by dominating lesser competition...Sanchez saw a steady growth in production that possibly was aided by dropped INTs.

[CTM]

So I guess it comes down to what you're into...Freeman saw a big jump in production possibly by dominating lesser competition...Sanchez saw a steady growth in production that possibly was aided by dropped INTs.

I'll take Sanchez fwiw, i just think those that think it's a slam dunk are homers

[JiFtheOracle]

Freeman's not playing the NFC West this year. 18 of his 25 TDs came against teams with losing records, including 5 against Seattle, the team with the worst defense in the league.

Mark Sanchez threw 17 TD's. 13 of those came against teams with losing records.

[Klecko73isGod]

I'll take Sanchez fwiw, i just think those that think it's a slam dunk are homers

And those who think its a slam dunk the other way probably made up their mind on Sanchez before the 2009 draft, like JiF.

[Klecko73isGod]

Mark Sanchez threw 17 TD's. 13 of those came against teams with losing records.

That's a lower percentage than Freeman numbnuts.

[CTM]

That's a lower percentage than Freeman numbnuts.

where did you learn math?

[Klecko73isGod]

where did you learn math?

Crusher taught me.

[dbatesman]

Mark Sanchez threw 17 TD's. 13 of those came against teams with losing records.

You came back just in time.

[jason423]

Well the improvements from season 1 to 2:

Freeman - +15 TDs / -12 INTs

Sanchez - +5 TDs / -7 INTs

My guess would be it's easier to regress...considering the extreme leap his stats made. I consider this to be especially true given that Sanchez has not only played more NFL games, but has played more high pressure NFL games. I'd be significantly more comfortable in a Freeman regression if this was baseball and not football. I'm extremely confident that Sanchez will improve.

The improvement levels for both were excellent, but Freeman's was off the charts. Both should have successful careers amd I personally like Sanchez' late game heroics to the safer Freeman game, but Freeman charts with a far higher class of QB than Sanchez does.

[SenorGato]

The improvement levels for both were excellent, but Freeman's was off the charts. Both should have successful careers amd I personally like Sanchez' late game heroics to the safer Freeman game, but Freeman charts with a far higher class of QB than Sanchez does.

Personally, I think in year 3 they switch year 2 stats. I think Freeman is an extremely talented QB, but I rarely trust big jumps forward like that. He is, of course, the kind of talent that's very capable of sustaining that type of leap, and he's in a great place in many ways to do just that. Still, the leap might be a little too good to be completely true, and I have a feeling he was greatly aided by beating on the hacky NFC West like Klecko(!) suggested.

[CTM]

Personally, I think in year 3 they switch year 2 stats. I think Freeman is an extremely talented QB, but I rarely trust big jumps forward like that. He is, of course, the kind of talent that's very capable of sustaining that type of leap, and he's in a great place in many ways to do just that. Still, the leap might be a little too good to be completely true, and I have a feeling he was greatly aided by beating on the hacky NFC West like Klecko(!) suggested.

I actually agree, and made the same arguement when Pennington succeeded against crappy defenses in 2008. I expect Freeman's numbers to regress this year and have long made the arguement that for most teams SOS is the biggest determining factor of yoy performance.

That being said, the stats back up what my eyes saw, Sanchez had a very fortuitous season last year. Between the "dropped" ints and numerous late game miracle type plays, I don't think his end stats accuraletly portrayed the season he had. He has to get a lot better cause old lady luck isn't likely to favor him this year.

Last year the advanced stats had Freeman as a top 10 QB and Sanchez as a bottom 1/3 player, it's hard to completely ignore that.

[JiFtheOracle]

I actually agree, and made the same arguement when Pennington succeeded against crappy defenses in 2008. I expect Freeman's numbers to regress this year and have long made the arguement that for most teams SOS is the biggest determining factor of yoy performance.

That being said, the stats back up what my eyes saw, Sanchez had a very fortuitous season last year. Between the "dropped" ints and numerous late game miracle type plays, I don't think his end stats accuraletly portrayed the season he had. He has to get a lot better cause old lady luck isn't likely to favor him this year.

Last year the advanced stats had Freeman as a top 10 QB and Sanchez as a bottom 1/3 player, it's hard to completely ignore that.

Exactly, then throw in the fact the Sanchez plays on a far superior team with many more options to throw to than Freeman...and it really makes Sanchez look like the POS he is. I like the kid. He's won me over. I still think he pretty much sucks as a QB, but he's a gamer and can step up in the clutch which is very tough to find.

[jason423]

Personally, I think in year 3 they switch year 2 stats. I think Freeman is an extremely talented QB, but I rarely trust big jumps forward like that. He is, of course, the kind of talent that's very capable of sustaining that type of leap, and he's in a great place in many ways to do just that. Still, the leap might be a little too good to be completely true, and I have a feeling he was greatly aided by beating on the hacky NFC West like Klecko(!) suggested.

Id be surprised if they swapped stats. Sanchez is far too erratic in an offense that turns the ball over too much to put up the kind of year Freeman did last year. I do think Freeman regresses a bit as he had the advantage of an easy schedule and will probably be allowed to open things up more which will lead to more turnovers.

Thast said in regular season games against good teams the difference between the two was in accuracy. Sanchez averaged 1 INT per game against 0.67 TDs. Freeman essentialy flipped that with a 1.16 TD vs 0.67 Int. Bothe were in the 190 ypg category and 57% completion percentage. If you factor in the playoff games Sanchez actually was more accurate (58% vs 57%) and brough the TD/Int ratio to 1:0.78.

The accuracy is the major issue. Against bad teams Sanchez fell to a 53.6%. He only averaged 0.78 picks per game but those are the games where all the dropped picks probably skew the stats a little bit. His yards shot up to over 230 per game. Freeman, on the other hand, jumped to 64% and only 0.2 IPG. HEs under 1% of his pass attempts being picked off while Sanchez was over 2%.