Transgender student makes history on prom night... Florida teen is first transgender person to be prom queen at a U.S. public school

[ZachEY]

The fact that the article calls her "him", and worse, her parents call her "him", just goes to show you how far away individuals like this are from anything resembling acceptance.

[The Crusher]

The fact that the article calls her "him", and worse, her parents call her "him", just goes to show you how far away individuals like this are from anything resembling acceptance.

That's a big reason why I like to refer to my kids by their birth order number.

[Larz]

everybody chill.

there's nothing wrong with loving who you are

god makes no mistakes

[CTM]

everybody chill.

there's nothing wrong with loving who you are

god makes no mistakes

Jeffrey Dahmer?

[Larz]

Jeffrey Dahmer?

whooosh

[CTM]

Ok then, should this kid be allowed to play on the women's teams?

One could argue if not on estrogen there may be an unfair strength advantage, that certainly doesn't exist in a popularity contest like prom queen. They've let females play football and hockey..

[Jetsfan80]

Have you ever talked to someone who identifies as transgendered? Even once?

Absolutely. My school might as well be called UNC San Francisco. Big LBGTQIA influence.

[Jetsfan80]

there's nothing wrong with loving who you are

god makes no mistakes

Which is exactly why I like being male, and prefer not to make the border between male and female so hazy that no border exists anymore.

You can do whatever you'd like to the genitalia you were given but at the end of the day, you're still asked to choose "male" or "female". Them's the breaks.

The fact that the article calls her "him", and worse, her parents call her "him", just goes to show you how far away individuals like this are from anything resembling acceptance.

I think its an accurate depiction of the fact that, no matter what you do, your sex is your sex and your gender is your gender. I'm of the opinion that maybe its not the rest of us who just need to learn to "accept it".

But I suppose I'm just a bigot.

[ZachEY]

Absolutely. My school might as well be called UNC San Francisco. Big LBGTQIA influence.

And none of these conversations made you empathetic to their way of life?

[ZachEY]

I think its an accurate depiction of the fact that, no matter what you do, your sex is your sex and your gender is your gender. Maybe its not the rest of us who just need to learn to "accept it".

But I suppose I'm just a bigot.

Sex and gender are very different constructs.

Bigot is your word. I'd simply say somewhere in the unaware to close minded range.

[Jetsfan80]

And none of these conversations made you empathetic to their way of life?

I'm empathetic to the extent that I think they have some serious issues going on that would cause them to "feel" like a woman in a man's body (or vice versa), and hope they get the help they need. Perhaps there are elements of body dysmorphic disorder? I'm clearly not qualified to say.

I'm not empathetic in that my worldview has shifted to the point where I support the behavior. I don't hate or dislike these people. I simply don't support their choices.

[ZachEY]

I'm empathetic to the extent that I think they have some serious issues going on that would cause them to "feel" like a woman in a man's body (or vice versa), and hope they get the help they need. I'm not empathetic to the point where my worldview has shifted to the point where I support the behavior. I don't hate or dislike these folks. I simply don't support their choices.

Perhaps the 'help they need' is simply the freedom and ability to be who they want to be?

And, of course, how would you explain hermaphroditic individuals, born with both sets of genitalia? On the physical level, they exist in neither of the two categories you've depicted. Why is it impossible for this same phenomenon to exist on the intrapsyhic level?

[The Crusher]

I have empathy. I've spent most my life as a man trying to get into a womans body.

[ZachEY]

Further, I don't think people of the LGBTQI community really are asking for your "support", I think they're asking for equal rights afforded to everyone else in the constitution. You won't find me at any rallies, but I think they deserve to be treated as humans.

[Jetsfan80]

Perhaps the 'help they need' is simply the freedom and ability to be who they want to be?

And, of course, how would you explain hermaphroditic individuals, born with both sets of genitalia? On the physical level, they exist in neither of the two categories you've depicted. Why is it impossible for this same phenomenon to exist on the intrapsyhic level?

Well just as you say sex is different from gender, hermaphrodites are different than what I perceive to be people with body dysmorphic disorder.

Hermaphrodites are born with two sets of genitalia. People with BDD develop anxiety over a perceived physical defect due to multiple causes. Hermaphrodites, as I understand, are essentially people who are born with "extra" genitalia, but are still either male or female. People who choose to change from a man to a woman were born one or the other and make a conscious choice.

[Jetsfan80]

Further, I don't think people of the LGBTQI community really are asking for your "support", I think they're asking for equal rights afforded to everyone else in the constitution. You won't find me at any rallies, but I think they deserve to be treated as humans.

And I believe I stressed that I don't want to take rights or privileges from these people. Nor is anyone really trying to take them away; anyone who wants to change from a man to a woman is free to do so with no legal roadblocks. I think they very much ARE interested in changing peoples' opinions and gaining wider acceptance in society, seeing as they already have equality (at least in this country).

To put it simply, I just find them weird for the reasons I stated above. lol.

[ZachEY]

Well just as you say sex is different from gender, hermaphrodites are different than what I perceive to be people with body dysmorphic disorder.

Hermaphrodites are born with two sets of genitalia. People with BDD develop anxiety over a perceived physical defect due to multiple causes. Hermaphrodites, as I understand, are essentially people who are born with "extra" genitalia, but are still either male or female. People who choose to change from a man to a woman were born one or the other and make a conscious choice.

Body Dismorphic Disorder and Gender Transition are not the same thing. They have similar attributes, but BDD involves a very specific focus on a part of the body which they feel is somehow toxic. Transgendered individuals do not think there is something wrong with their genitals, it's a much more global issue of feeling genetically assigned to the wrong biological sex.

And yes, they do have a conscious choice, but that was not my point at all. You're comments are made in the vain that you outright reject this as a realistic and the best option for some. I'm asking why if a person can be born with physical sex characteristics that do not fall in line with Male or Female norms, why can't they be born with the intrapsyhic capacity to feel like there gender is incorrect...

[ZachEY]

And I believe I stressed that I don't want to take rights or privileges from these people. Nor is anyone really trying to take them away; anyone who wants to change from a man to a woman is free to do so with no legal roadblocks. I think they very much ARE interested in changing peoples' opinions and gaining wider acceptance in society, seeing as they already have equality (at least in this country).

To put it simply, I just find them weird for the reasons I stated above. lol.

They have equality? What's it been like 6 months since they've been allowed to openly serve in the military? Can they marry in any state they choose? Equality... Yeah.

As for finding it weird, that's fine. I find a lot of things weird. And ultimately, weird just means foreign and not understood. I find people who put their pets to human status weird. I find perfectionists weird. I find highly religious people weird. I find people who like the Dolphins weird. But your words were "I'm not cool with this vague gender stuff going on. Either you're born male or female in my mind, and those who say "I FEEL like a woman" when born male, or vice versa, are pushing the envelope." That's beyond "finding it weird", that's saying essentially, "The way I live my life is right, and yours is wrong". My point is, who are you to say that?

[Jetsfan80]

My point is, who are you to say that?

This question would force me to invoke something you find weird.....my beliefs.

[visajets]

By any chance is this person related to T0m Shane?

[CTM]

And I believe I stressed that I don't want to take rights or privileges from these people. Nor is anyone really trying to take them away; anyone who wants to change from a man to a woman is free to do so with no legal roadblocks. I think they very much ARE interested in changing peoples' opinions and gaining wider acceptance in society, seeing as they already have equality (at least in this country).

To put it simply, I just find them weird for the reasons I stated above. lol.

Didn't this whole conversation start over whether or not this kid could run for prom queen.

You're attitude seems to be that they should confirm to norms of our society, which is an attitude that stinks frankly. The oppressed majority, why do i have to "accept them".. gimme a break, leave them alone, they aren't hurting anybody

[ZachEY]

This question would force me to invoke something you find weird.....my beliefs.

Exactly... But, why not accept the fact that your religious beliefs are your own. Much like this person's beliefs about their gender are their own.

[Jetsfan80]

Didn't this whole conversation start over whether or not this kid could run for prom queen.

He can run for whatever he wants to run for and do whatever he wants to do. I'm saying I don't personally support changing genders, encouraging someone to do it, and I don't support the gender politics movement as a whole. You disagree with me and that's fine. Its called discourse.

You're attitude seems to be that they should confirm to norms of our society, which is an attitude that stinks frankly. The oppressed majority, why do i have to "accept them".. gimme a break, leave them alone, they aren't hurting anybody

lol, what, did I punch this kid in the face? I'm commenting on a social issue on an internet message board. And yes, sometimes conforming IS in a person's best interests. Especially when it comes to getting a job.

[RutgersJetFan]

One could argue if not on estrogen there may be an unfair strength advantage, that certainly doesn't exist in a popularity contest like prom queen.

Are you kidding me? Look at that jawline. It's immaculate. No tech school chick can compete with that.

[Jetsfan80]

Exactly... But, why not accept the fact that your religious beliefs are your own. Much like this person's beliefs about their gender are their own.

I'm more than willing to accept that. If my views are seen as intolerable that's another matter entirely. Seems to me we're just arguing in circles and I have the minority viewpoint in this thread. No problem.

[CTM]

He can run for whatever he wants to run for and do whatever he wants to do. I'm saying I don't personally support changing genders or encouraging someone to do it.

lol, what, did I punch this kid in the face? I'm commenting on a social issue on an internet message board. And yes, sometimes conforming IS in a person's best interests. Especially when it comes to getting a job.

It's not you neccesarily.. just hear it a lot of complaints from the majority about the minority and think it's ridiculous.. like those protesting gay marriage, I can't imagine why anyone would care about something like that..

[CTM]

Are you kidding me? Look at that jawline. It's immaculate. No tech school chick can compete with that.

I didn't know a square, masculine jaw is something you found attractive on a lady

[RutgersJetFan]

I didn't know a square, masculine jaw is something you found attractive on a lady

It's TECH school dude. All the chicks in tech school have masculine jaws.

[RutgersJetFan]

And, of course, how would you explain hermaphroditic individuals, born with both sets of genitalia?

The luckiest people on earth?

[visajets]

The luckiest people on earth?

Thats gross and you call that lucky?

[RutgersJetFan]

Thats gross and you call that lucky?

I love having a penis and I also love touching vaginas. It's kind of like ordering a cheeseburger and forgetting to ask for bacon, but they accidentally put the bacon on there anyways. Except instead of a bacon cheeseburger, you get no-no parts.

[THE ILK]

I love having a penis and I also love touching vaginas. It's kind of like ordering a cheeseburger and forgetting to ask for bacon, but they accidentally put the bacon on there anyways. Except instead of a bacon cheeseburger, you get no-no parts.

T0m loves having a penis or two.

[war ensemble]

Just an observation, but invoking "God's wishes" or whatever as a defense seems to me more like a plea to avoid rationality. If one goes that route this thread will be like the sexual identity equivalent of intelligent design vs evolution.

I'm sure EY knows a lot more about the technical stuff than me, but I believe there is scientific research that backs the fact that a. transgendered individuals' brains exhibit some or all of the characteristics of the sex that they wish to be (thus removing this from the "conscious choice" category [as if it were some sort of thought-over idea?] and b. that reparative therapy does not work.

[ZachEY]

Just an observation, but invoking "God's wishes" or whatever as a defense seems to me more like a plea to avoid rationality. If one goes that route this thread will be like the sexual identity equivalent of intelligent design vs evolution.

I'm sure EY knows a lot more about the technical stuff than me, but I believe there is scientific research that backs the fact that a. transgendered individuals' brains exhibit some or all of the characteristics of the sex that they wish to be (thus removing this from the "conscious choice" category [as if it were some sort of thought-over idea?] and b. that reparative therapy does not work.

I don't know much about the brain scan aspect.

However, enacting the change IS a conscious choice. The desire for one is not. So, as an individual struggling with these issues, you have two choices. Change and deal with external struggles. Stay the same, and deal with internal struggles.

I was fortunate enough to speak for a few hours with a Female To Male transgendered individual. When he was female, he had the idea for what specific reason I don't remember, that when he turned 10, he'd get his penis. He always felt male as a girl and when that physical transformation did not happen, he was devastated. He eventually decided to make the change, has a girlfriend who accepts him now, and is very happy.

And yeah, therapy will not change your gender identification or sexuality ideas. I would think the fact that the two male founders of Exodus International are now married to each other would be testament enough to that.

[RutgersJetFan]

I don't know much about the brain scan aspect.

However, enacting the change IS a conscious choice. The desire for one is not. So, as an individual struggling with these issues, you have two choices. Change and deal with external struggles. Stay the same, and deal with internal struggles.

I was fortunate enough to speak for a few hours with a Female To Male transgendered individual. When he was female, he had the idea for what specific reason I don't remember, that when he turned 10, he'd get his penis. He always felt male as a girl and when that physical transformation did not happen, he was devastated. He eventually decided to make the change, has a girlfriend who accepts him now, and is very happy.

And yeah, therapy will not change your gender identification or sexuality ideas. I would think the fact that the two male founders of Exodus International are now married to each other would be testament enough to that.

Not to get too deep, but what about dudes whose moms dress them up and sh*t constantly when they're kids?