4 man fronts. Its time.

[JustInFudge]

With our 2 NT's injured and 2 guys off the scrap heap filling their roles, I think the Jets should go with 4 man fronts exclusively until Pouha and Eillis get healthy. The DL seems to be better suited to play with 4 man fronts. They dont have the true NT clog right now to deploy 3 man fronts and expect results. All the healthy DLmen are guys that can play inside or out and the Jets would have the flexibility to move them around the line giving the Colts numerous different looks. We already do this to an extent, I know, but I think they should put the 3-4 o n the shelf for now.

Also, I think this will benefit our LB'ers as well. Pace and Thomas are the absolute worst OLB'ers in the league. It might help to put them on the line with a hand in the dirt. This would also allow us to move our slow ass ILB's to the outside where their lack of speed might not be as noticeable and give our speed LB, Demario Davis, some time as a MLB. He might actually be able to run sideline to sideline. Who knows, since we dont blitz anymore, we might even be able to create some pressure from the DL.

Karl Dunbar is supposed to be a top notch DL coach. He specializes in 4 man fronts. We should give it a shot IMO. They're already getting gashed. Cant hurt right?

Thoughts?

[bitonti]

they don't really have 4-3 DE to pass rush. They would be running a big 4-3 like when Seattle would put Red Bryant at end. Or they'd be putting Pace, Thomas and McEntyre there. The personnel doesn't change just cause the formation does.

It might toughen them against the run but don't think it would help the edge speed problem.

[JustInFudge]

they don't really have 4-3 DE to pass rush. They would be running a big 4-3 like when Seattle would put Red Bryant at end. Or they'd be putting Pace, Thomas and McEntyre there. The personnel doesn't change just cause the formation does.

It might toughen them against the run but don't think it would help the edge speed problem.

I'm wondering if at this point in their careers, if the Bryan Thomas and Calvin Pace are better suited to play DE's? And I think Coples and Maybin might be able to get the passer out of a 4-3 front.

Honestly, I'd really like to see something like Pace/Maybin LDE, DeVito and Wilk as DT's and Coples as RDE for a couple of series. Even if the only result is shutting down the run, that could be a good thing to make the Colts one dimensional.

[khesanh]

they don't really have 4-3 DE to pass rush. They would be running a big 4-3 like when Seattle would put Red Bryant at end. Or they'd be putting Pace, Thomas and McEntyre there. The personnel doesn't change just cause the formation does.

It might toughen them against the run but don't think it would help the edge speed problem.

They have the perfect 4-3 DE to rush the passer in Wilkerson and Coples and this give Coples a chance to be on the field more. I would give Maybin and Demario a try at outside LB we need some speed

[bitonti]

They have the perfect 4-3 DE to rush the passer in Wilkerson and Coples

this is a green-glasses type of view. perfect 4-3 DEs aren't 290. they are usually in the 250-260 range. If the Jets had Trent Cole or jared allen ok but basically you're putting OLB there on Passing downs. That's kinda what they do now (go and look at the tape, the Jets don't play 3-4 on 3rd and long)

what this really dates back to isn't the failure of hybrid DTs like Wilk or coples to get pass rush, it's failures of Maybin to live up to the hype. has that dude done a damn thing in 2012?

[pointman]

Why aren't we playing smash mouth football like we did in 09? Rex brought massives blitzes and it worked for us. Now we can't stop the run, and give quarterbacks all day to throw.

[#27TheDominator]

Why aren't we playing smash mouth football like we did in 09? Rex brought massives blitzes and it worked for us. Now we can't stop the run, and give quarterbacks all day to throw.

Cause we're trying to add more 4 man fronts and our LBs are huge, slow, converted DEs?

[JustInFudge]

this is a green-glasses type of view. perfect 4-3 DEs aren't 290. they are usually in the 250-260 range. If the Jets had Trent Cole or jared allen ok but basically you're putting OLB there on Passing downs. That's kinda what they do now (go and look at the tape, the Jets don't play 3-4 on 3rd and long)

what this really dates back to isn't the failure of hybrid DTs like Wilk or coples to get pass rush, it's failures of Maybin to live up to the hype. has that dude done a damn thing in 2012?

Pace and Thomas were drafted to be DE's. Maybin was a DE in college. Coples played DE in college. Mo Wilk moved all around. They have the personnel and they should deploy it almost exclusively without a true NT to run a 3-4.

[pointman]

Cause we're trying to add more 4 man fronts and our LBs are huge, slow, converted DEs?

But our LBs have always been the same fat, dumb, slow, linemen playing LB.

[Bleedin Green]

they don't really have 4-3 DE to pass rush. They would be running a big 4-3 like when Seattle would put Red Bryant at end. Or they'd be putting Pace, Thomas and McEntyre there. The personnel doesn't change just cause the formation does.

It might toughen them against the run but don't think it would help the edge speed problem.

They don't really have a 3-4 OLB to pass rush either. If anything, there might be a slight uptick with shoving Maybin out there with his hand in the dirt on passing downs, as OLB clearly doesn't work for the kid. No reason you wouldn't be able to play any of the OLBs at DE on passing downs either (not that they don't already do that on occasion). As JiF suggested, more reps for Coples might help in that department as well, particularly if he's only in one on one situations with a 4-man line.

It's far from a sure bet, but what they're doing sure as hell isn't working, and trying to put less reliance on the LBs against the run isn't exactly the worst idea in the world, considering how awful they've been in that department.

[khesanh]

this is a green-glasses type of view. perfect 4-3 DEs aren't 290. they are usually in the 250-260 range. If the Jets had Trent Cole or jared allen ok but basically you're putting OLB there on Passing downs. That's kinda what they do now (go and look at the tape, the Jets don't play 3-4 on 3rd and long)

what this really dates back to isn't the failure of hybrid DTs like Wilk or coples to get pass rush, it's failures of Maybin to live up to the hype. has that dude done a damn thing in 2012?

Agreed, but i thought it had more to do with athletic ability then anything didn't Coples have a 10 yard burst equivalent to Von Millers? Some guys are just freaks of nature and their body type is not the end all like Jared Allen, Julius Peppers and a few other

[JustInFudge]

They don't really have a 3-4 OLB to pass rush either. If anything, there might be a slight uptick with shoving Maybin out there with his hand in the dirt on passing downs, as OLB clearly doesn't work for the kid. No reason you wouldn't be able to play any of the OLBs at DE on passing downs either (not that they don't already do that on occasion). As JiF suggested, more reps for Coples might help in that department as well, particularly if he's only in one on one situations with a 4-man line.

It's far from a sure bet, but what they're doing sure as hell isn't working, and trying to put less reliance on the LBs against the run isn't exactly the worst idea in the world, considering how awful they've been in that department.

Exactly. That and you're not relying on Harrison and Muir to the wrecking ball in the middle of the line. It already wasnt working with Ellis or Pouha.

[HessStation]

Coples-Mo-Harrison-Pace

WLB-Davis MLB-Harris SLB-Scott

Works. Why not. Although this makes me like the Coples pick less. He was horrible last year playing 43DE.

[bitonti]

im repeating myself but look at the tape they already do 4 man fronts in passing situations. if you are asking for more 4 man fronts you are asking for it on 1st and 2nd down. they already run 4 man fronts in nickel and dime situations.

[#27TheDominator]

But our LBs have always been the same fat, dumb, slow, linemen playing LB.

Yeah, but they were playing a 3-4 and didn't have to cover as much ground.

They don't really have a 3-4 OLB to pass rush either. If anything, there might be a slight uptick with shoving Maybin out there with his hand in the dirt on passing downs, as OLB clearly doesn't work for the kid. No reason you wouldn't be able to play any of the OLBs at DE on passing downs either (not that they don't already do that on occasion). As JiF suggested, more reps for Coples might help in that department as well, particularly if he's only in one on one situations with a 4-man line.

It's far from a sure bet, but what they're doing sure as hell isn't working, and trying to put less reliance on the LBs against the run isn't exactly the worst idea in the world, considering how awful they've been in that department.

Maybin almost always has his hand in the dirt. I'm with Bit. This is just terminology. It's not going to change who is on the field what down. Does it really matter if Maybin is called an OLB or a DE? He's still going against the T. I think (hope) the problem has been the inexperience of Ellis and Devito and Pouha being dinged up. Coples seems physically capable, but it will be a bit of time before he really gets it.

The team has traditionally has trouble with speed backs like Bush and Spiller. It actually bothered me much more being gashed by Foster and Gore. I am hopeful that the fact that Pouha, Devito, Scott and Thomas have all been hurt to some level has contributed and it's not that they are all falling off a cliff old or Rex and Pettine have lost it. The Revis thing probably contributes, but that's hardly an excuse for getting gashed like this by the run.

[Bleedin Green]

Yeah, but they were playing a 3-4 and didn't have to cover as much ground.

Maybin almost always has his hand in the dirt. I'm with Bit. This is just terminology. It's not going to change who is on the field what down. Does it really matter if Maybin is called an OLB or a DE? He's still going against the T. I think (hope) the problem has been the inexperience of Ellis and Devito and Pouha being dinged up. Coples seems physically capable, but it will be a bit of time before he really gets it.

The team has traditionally has trouble with speed backs like Bush and Spiller. It actually bothered me much more being gashed by Foster and Gore. I am hopeful that the fact that Pouha, Devito, Scott and Thomas have all been hurt to some level has contributed and it's not that they are all falling off a cliff old or Rex and Pettine have lost it. The Revis thing probably contributes, but that's hardly an excuse for getting gashed like this by the run.

As far as the bold is concerned, I think the point is that it should change the personnel. While you can simply say you throw a OLB down at DE and it's all the same, the truth is that the concepts behind how a 3-4 and 4-3 defense are run are pretty different. Now granted, the Jets don't now run, nor have they ever really in Rex's time here, a true traditional 3-4, the idea is by moving to a more 4-man line, it could help in working some of the younger players into the fold. There's a reason that there's a much greater frequency of rookie LBs, even middle round picks, being day 1 starters in a 4-3 defense, as there's not the same level of expectation in terms of taking on guards and things like that. Same with 3-4 DE's having a greater responsibility in taking on double teams and holding up at the point of attack. A change in philosophy might give the Jets more ability to work guys like Coples and Davis into the fold, getting some more speed onto the field in the process (and in the case of Coples, hopefully some more pass rush to boot).

Again, none of this is anywhere close to a sure thing to work out, but I can certainly see the point in having some interest on how this group would work out with a different approach.

[JustInFudge]

Agreed, but i thought it had more to do with athletic ability then anything didn't Coples have a 10 yard burst equivalent to Von Millers? Some guys are just freaks of nature and their body type is not the end all like Jared Allen, Julius Peppers and a few other

Agreed. Both JPP and Peppers are Coples size.

im repeating myself but look at the tape they already do 4 man fronts in passing situations. if you are asking for more 4 man fronts you are asking for it on 1st and 2nd down. they already run 4 man fronts in nickel and dime situations.

Yes. I'm saying line up with 4 man fronts exclusively. Also, they've run more 3 man fronts in passing situations this season than I've ever seen before. They are choosing to drop into coverage.

[#27TheDominator]

As far as the bold is concerned, I think the point is that it should change the personnel. While you can simply say you throw a OLB down at DE and it's all the same, the truth is that the concepts behind how a 3-4 and 4-3 defense are run are pretty different. Now granted, the Jets don't now run, nor have they ever really in Rex's time here, a true traditional 3-4, the idea is by moving to a more 4-man line, it could help in working some of the younger players into the fold. There's a reason that there's a much greater frequency of rookie LBs, even middle round picks, being day 1 starters in a 4-3 defense, as there's not the same level of expectation in terms of taking on guards and things like that. Same with 3-4 DE's having a greater responsibility in taking on double teams and holding up at the point of attack. A change in philosophy might give the Jets more ability to work guys like Coples and Davis into the fold, getting some more speed onto the field in the process (and in the case of Coples, hopefully some more pass rush to boot).

Again, none of this is anywhere close to a sure thing to work out, but I can certainly see the point in having some interest on how this group would work out with a different approach.

Yeah. I think they are moving in that direction. My point is basically that if we try to move towards exclusive 4-3 (JiF's idea) we will seriously expose our OLBs and not necessarily add much to the pass rush. Remember when Herm came and we had to jettision guys that were very good players cause they didn't fit? Mo and Shade Tree were way too big and slow to play 4-3 LB and it's probably true with all 4 of our current starters.

Maybe losing weight wasn't a good idea either. Who knows?

[JustInFudge]

Yeah. I think they are moving in that direction. My point is basically that if we try to move towards exclusive 4-3 (JiF's idea) we will seriously expose our OLBs and not necessarily add much to the pass rush. Remember when Herm came and we had to jettision guys that were very good players cause they didn't fit? Mo and Shade Tree were way too big and slow to play 4-3 LB and it's probably true with all 4 of our current starters.

Maybe losing weight wasn't a good idea either. Who knows?

How? I'm saying to move them to DE. Pace and Thomas were originally drafted to be 4-3 DE's. Put Davis in the middle and let Harris and Scott play OLB.

[#27TheDominator]

How? I'm saying to move them to DE. Pace and Thomas were originally drafted to be 4-3 DE's. Put Davis in the middle and let Harris and Scott play OLB.

I'm sorry. We'll seriously expose our ILBs playing OLB. Pace and Thomas were sh*tty DEs. Scott and Harris are probably too big and slow to be effective 3-4 ILBs and you want them covering the sideline in the 4-3? I understand the desire to get Davis on the field, but he'd probably have to cover more than half of it himself for this to work. As a change of pace, fine. A steady diet of anything and this D, like any other, is getting picked on.

[JustInFudge]

I'm sorry. We'll seriously expose our ILBs playing OLB. Pace and Thomas were sh*tty DEs. Scott and Harris are probably too big and slow to be effective 3-4 ILBs and you want them covering the sideline in the 4-3? I understand the desire to get Davis on the field, but he'd probably have to cover more than half of it himself for this to work. As a change of pace, fine. A steady diet of anything and this D, like any other, is getting picked on.

Really? Hmmmm...I'd think putting slower LB'ers on the outside where they dont have as much room to cover would be beneficial.

[Smashmouth]

With our 2 NT's injured and 2 guys off the scrap heap filling their roles, I think the Jets should go with 4 man fronts exclusively until Pouha and Eillis get healthy. The DL seems to be better suited to play with 4 man fronts. They dont have the true NT clog right now to deploy 3 man fronts and expect results. All the healthy DLmen are guys that can play inside or out and the Jets would have the flexibility to move them around the line giving the Colts numerous different looks. We already do this to an extent, I know, but I think they should put the 3-4 o n the shelf for now.

Also, I think this will benefit our LB'ers as well. Pace and Thomas are the absolute worst OLB'ers in the league. It might help to put them on the line with a hand in the dirt. This would also allow us to move our slow ass ILB's to the outside where their lack of speed might not be as noticeable and give our speed LB, Demario Davis, some time as a MLB. He might actually be able to run sideline to sideline. Who knows, since we dont blitz anymore, we might even be able to create some pressure from the DL.

Karl Dunbar is supposed to be a top notch DL coach. He specializes in 4 man fronts. We should give it a shot IMO. They're already getting gashed. Cant hurt right?

Thoughts?

I agree and suggested this might be the Jets Idea when they Drafted Coples.

So

DL Thomas DE Coples DT Wilkerson DT Pace DE With Divito in rotation at both positions he can Rotate to DT on Passing downs and DE on running downs.

LB's Harris OLB Davis MLB McEntyre OLB or Scott however you want to go with it. I would also like to see more Bellore in the mix. Maybin does not even see the field in this scenario unless he rotates at DE from time to time. problem with Maybin is once he engages a blocker he becomes VG you might as well have 10 guys on the field.

[JustInFudge]

I agree and suggested this might be the Jets Idea when they Drafted Coples.

So

DL Thomas DE Coples DT Wilkerson DT Pace DE With Divito in rotation at both positions he can Rotate to DT on Passing downs and DE on running downs.

LB's Harris OLB Davis MLB McEntyre OLB or Scott however you want to go with it. I would also like to see more Bellore in the mix. Maybin does not even see the field in this scenario unless he rotates at DE from time to time. problem with Maybin is once he engages a blocker he becomes VG you might as well have 10 guys on the field.

I remember. We disagreed at the time on the matter. My position is dont mess with Rex's system...but now...with his 2 NT's out, I think it makes sense.

[#27TheDominator]

Really? Hmmmm...I'd think putting slower LB'ers on the outside where they dont have as much room to cover would be beneficial.

Why don't they have as much room to cover? They will have to cover 1/3 the field instead of 1/4. Less need to drop? I admit that I grew up when the athletes played OLB and the big evil monsters played MLB, but that was back when RBs were paramount and smashmouth was king. Still, you are asking Harris to play outside and I find that unlikely. You are trying to solve a problem, but the only additional speed you are adding is Davis. I don't see how much that is going to help. Obviously they should keep mixing it up and I don't doubt they will play more of this out of necessity, but if teams know it is coming? We're doomed. Of course 98% of the board is T0mShaned about that anyway, but stil.

As for our Smashmouth, I don't believe that McIntyre is suited to playing standup other than as an occasional trick dropback. The guy is a DE more than an OLB.

[JustInFudge]

Why don't they have as much room to cover? They will have to cover 1/3 the field instead of 1/4. Less need to drop? I admit that I grew up when the athletes played OLB and the big evil monsters played MLB, but that was back when RBs were paramount and smashmouth was king. Still, you are asking Harris to play outside and I find that unlikely. You are trying to solve a problem, but the only additional speed you are adding is Davis. I don't see how much that is going to help. Obviously they should keep mixing it up and I don't doubt they will play more of this out of necessity, but if teams know it is coming? We're doomed. Of course 98% of the board is T0mShaned about that anyway, but stil.

As for our Smashmouth, I don't believe that McIntyre is suited to playing standup other than as an occasional trick dropback. The guy is a DE more than an OLB.

I see your point. Less LB'ers mean they have to cover more field. I guess I was thinking about from a sideline perspective. The sideline is the 12th defender, etc. Meaning, if they start closer to it than they would inside, it wont take as much to cover to the sideline. Does that make sense?

[#27TheDominator]

I see your point. Less LB'ers mean they have to cover more field. I guess I was thinking about from a sideline perspective. The sideline is the 12th defender, etc. Meaning, if they start closer to it than they would inside, it wont take as much to cover to the sideline. Does that make sense?

Some, but it doesn't help our traditional achilles heel - coverage. We will have Harris and Scott as likely to cover TEs and backs on the swing. Death. They are slower than Thomas and Pace. McIntyre (?!)

[lancemehl]

We know the problem is the sack of sh*t who somehow got a GM job. I thought HC had a say in hiring conditioning guys, but I wouldn't be shocked if Woody and Mike figured out how to save some cash in that department. I also thought, since we have a "special" sort of GM who doesn't necessarily know football too well (For some reason martin Short in a lifejacket pops up in my head. "I'm not a very strong swimmer." lol) that our CS handled the draft picks, but now that I see three top picks...all geared toward filling one void on defense, all failing miserably...and that is Tannebum's trademark...failing. I don't know....is the FO really THAT incompetent that they cant upgrade the pass rush from Mike Devito in 3 years?? wtf

OR is it Rex's defensive schemes? Every single year, besides week one and preseason, the pocket just grows and grows until they find an open guy. And Rex seems to think that's fine. It's just hard to evaluate anything in this sabotaged environment.

[Smashmouth]

Why don't they have as much room to cover? They will have to cover 1/3 the field instead of 1/4. Less need to drop? I admit that I grew up when the athletes played OLB and the big evil monsters played MLB, but that was back when RBs were paramount and smashmouth was king. Still, you are asking Harris to play outside and I find that unlikely. You are trying to solve a problem, but the only additional speed you are adding is Davis. I don't see how much that is going to help. Obviously they should keep mixing it up and I don't doubt they will play more of this out of necessity, but if teams know it is coming? We're doomed. Of course 98% of the board is T0mShaned about that anyway, but stil.

As for our Smashmouth, I don't believe that McIntyre is suited to playing standup other than as an occasional trick dropback. The guy is a DE more than an OLB.

I see your point. Less LB'ers mean they have to cover more field. I guess I was thinking about from a sideline perspective. The sideline is the 12th defender, etc. Meaning, if they start closer to it than they would inside, it wont take as much to cover to the sideline. Does that make sense?

Dom your right we probably dont have the personnel at LB ...But Im Still KING

[#27TheDominator]

We know the problem is the sack of sh*t who somehow got a GM job. I thought HC had a say in hiring conditioning guys, but I wouldn't be shocked if Woody and Mike figured out how to save some cash in that department. I also thought, since we have a "special" sort of GM who doesn't necessarily know football too well (For some reason martin Short in a lifejacket pops up in my head. "I'm not a very strong swimmer." lol) that our CS handled the draft picks, but now that I see three top picks...all geared toward filling one void on defense, all failing miserably...and that is Tannebum's trademark...failing. I don't know....is the FO really THAT incompetent that they cant upgrade the pass rush from Mike Devito in 3 years?? wtf

OR is it Rex's defensive schemes? Every single year, besides week one and preseason, the pocket just grows and grows until they find an open guy. And Rex seems to think that's fine. It's just hard to evaluate anything in this sabotaged environment.

They are 2-3. This isn't the John McKay Bucs. Settle down.

[#27TheDominator]

Dom your right we probably dont have the personnel at LB ...But Im Still KING

Your time has come and your time has gone.

[JustInFudge]

Some, but it doesn't help our traditional achilles heel - coverage. We will have Harris and Scott as likely to cover TEs and backs on the swing. Death. They are slower than Thomas and Pace. McIntyre (?!)

I mean, they make them cover them now, so thats point. Less room to cover to the sideline as the extra defender. Bellore and McIntyre? Sure. Why not. Or move Davis outside and let Harris play in the middle. But this is all kind of my point. They have pieces that can move around. They should try it with all these injuries.

Also think this could be a good time to bring a tweener like Allen up...

We know the problem is the sack of sh*t who somehow got a GM job. I thought HC had a say in hiring conditioning guys, but I wouldn't be shocked if Woody and Mike figured out how to save some cash in that department. I also thought, since we have a "special" sort of GM who doesn't necessarily know football too well (For some reason martin Short in a lifejacket pops up in my head. "I'm not a very strong swimmer." lol) that our CS handled the draft picks, but now that I see three top picks...all geared toward filling one void on defense, all failing miserably...and that is Tannebum's trademark...failing. I don't know....is the FO really THAT incompetent that they cant upgrade the pass rush from Mike Devito in 3 years?? wtf

OR is it Rex's defensive schemes? Every single year, besides week one and preseason, the pocket just grows and grows until they find an open guy. And Rex seems to think that's fine. It's just hard to evaluate anything in this sabotaged environment.

Plenty of threads to trash the organization and HC...no need to bring it here.

[#27TheDominator]

I mean, they make them cover them now, so thats point. Less room to cover to the sideline as the extra defender. Bellore and McIntyre? Sure. Why not. Or move Davis outside and let Harris play in the middle. But this is all kind of my point. They have pieces that can move around. They should try it with all these injuries.

No dispute they should try it. I am very skeptical that this will work as a steady diet. I actually think that the uncertainty will work in their favor and they will mix it up MORE not less. You seemed to say they should go all in at 4-3 and it seems to me that playing multiple coverages and fronts is to their advantage. Particularly against a rookie QB even one as poised as Luck.

I think with Revis out they may play more zone which may actually help against the TEs and backs. They still have Cro to match up against #1s, but a zone can actually help reign in those TEs and backs that our LBs can't cover and it will let Landry and Bell pop them more.

[JustInFudge]

No dispute they should try it. I am very skeptical that this will work as a steady diet. I actually think that the uncertainty will work in their favor and they will mix it up MORE not less. You seemed to say they should go all in at 4-3 and it seems to me that playing multiple coverages and fronts is to their advantage. Particularly against a rookie QB even one as poised as Luck.

I think with Revis out they may play more zone which may actually help against the TEs and backs. They still have Cro to match up against #1s, but a zone can actually help reign in those TEs and backs that our LBs can't cover and it will let Landry and Bell pop them more.

My real point was on the DL, using more 4 man fronts with your 2 NT's injured. The LBer's were just a part of it as Thomas and Pace can play with a hand in the dirt. Whether those fronts result in a 4-3, Nickel or whatever, in back of them, obviously depends heavily on the game situations that they are in.

[TNJet]

I say: Coples,Devito,Wilkerson,Pace. Looks like a run stopper to me.

[Lego My Lageman]

Does anyone watch the games? They run 4 man front all the time