Building a Defense

[Smashmouth]

I agree.  I find it odd that most of the board seemed to find him a success.  He strikes me more as a load of potential.  I expected that kind of year from Hill, but I expected more production and consistent playing time from Coples.  I do think that the alleged rips of Coples by Rex have been overblown.  The last one was an insult of one lifting session, but it's been treated as an indictment of the kid's entire offseason.  Rex barely says anything negative about the kid, but it is more than he says bad about anybody else.

 

I agree with you, the workout session was overblown and seemed trivial, but does it point to other underlying issues we may not know about ? You dont see Rex call out many players like you said, he seems to praise them more than anything

[Smashmouth]

Wanna hear my conspiracy theory?

 

please

[T0mShane]

please

Rex wanted Coples bad, so he got him. Coaches get off on fixing headcases, especially if theyre talented. GMs hate headcases because they're career-killers if/when they implode.

As a tradeoff, Tannenbaum picked Stephen Hill in the second round. Rex is on record saying that he didn't want Hill. Hill is a GMs pick--great measurables, diamond in the rough-type that can make a GM look like a genius.

Rex, because he can, decided to start Hill right away to embarrass Tannenbaum and teach him a lesson about playing scout. We have proof-positive that Tannenbaum was screwing around with playing time (Vlad), so this was Rex's way of throwing Tanny over the pommel horse for ******* with his team.

But, Rex is paying extra attention to Coples because he wants to put that feather in his cap--that he took a player many had taken off their boards and turned him into an All-Pro. He'll bury Hill because Hill was Tannenbaum's thing, but he's going to nurture Coples like a baby lamb because that's his guy.

[SayNoToDMC]

Rex wanted Coples bad, so he got him. Coaches get off on fixing headcases, especially if theyre talented. GMs hate headcases because they're career-killers if/when they implode.

As a tradeoff, Tannenbaum picked Stephen Hill in the second round. Rex is on record saying that he didn't want Hill. Hill is a GMs pick--great measurables, diamond in the rough-type that can make a GM look like a genius.

Rex, because he can, decided to start Hill right away to embarrass Tannenbaum and teach him a lesson about playing scout. We have proof-positive that Tannenbaum was screwing around with playing time (Vlad), so this was Rex's way of throwing Tanny over the pommel horse for ******* with his team.

But, Rex is paying extra attention to Coples because he wants to put that feather in his cap--that he took a player many had taken off their boards and turned him into an All-Pro. He'll bury Hill because Hill was Tannenbaum's thing, but he's going to nurture Coples like a baby lamb because that's his guy.

 

Holy sh*t, you're insane and I kind of like it. I think I'm turned on right now

[Lupz27]

There is really only one way to stop the Pats and thats putting pressure on Brady up the Middle. The Giants have given the league the blue print for that 2 times. Trying to beat the pats by covering Gronk and Hernandez will lose you games more often than not.

 

 

Your statement is 100% correct, BUT the Giants in 07, and 11 (really 2011, Rex laid out the blueprint to stop the Brady, Moss era leading to Moss' cut, and the drafting of the 2 beast TE's IMO) are the only 2 teams that could create that kind of pressure with only a 4 man rush, no teams since including last years Giants can create that type of pressure from just 3, or 4 guys consistently, and MAYBE that is why we have drafted all these DL/OLB/DT players the last few years also, hoping we can find that magic 4 man rush.

 

P.S.

 

The only real way to beat the Patriots right now is to outscore them, and ball control, IF Brady, and Beli faced the Giants 2X's a year with that same ferocious pass rush you don't think those 2 would have come up with a counter for it?  We unfortunatley see them 2X's every season, and it is so much easier for them to come up with game plans to counter anything we showed them that was succesful in stopping them offensively.  Rex Ryan's D (with a lot of help from one D Revis) single handely ended the Randy Moss, Tom Brady ERA, I truley believe that, and as much as I hate the mother ****er, I give Beli all the props in the world for realizing this 3 weeks into a season, and having the balls to just up, and cut R Moss so he could get another game plan for T Brady to focus on, and perfect.

[Lupz27]

Thanks.

 

Your right all I did was question the move. Other than measureables what positive things can we say about Coples that translates to OLB ? Im just saying the guy seems to play much much better inside that he does outside and OLB's are usually much faster than Coples more agile and have better motors something Coples has been criticized for in the past. Its the same clowns who criticize yet have nothing to really offer the resason for the Original post .... How would you build a defense ?

 

JIF TBH your post makes you look like an idiot.  "Didnt read the post, too long...but I assume"  Really JIF ? Nice contribution as to how you would build the defense. Its obvious you disagree with be because your a Rex Apologist but the fact is our Defense does not show up CONSISTENTLY in big games vs Quality opponents just like Joe Klecko Said. Also Rex coached a boat load of HOF players in Baltimore , One on every level of that defense. He came here with some good players in place and the only 2 years this defense was anything close to dominant was year 1 and 2. The team lacks any speed or explosiveness at the LB position yeat we draft 4 DL with our top picks the past 3 years all while gaping holes exist at safety and LB.

 

Smash the real question isn't why isn't he playing inside, (they have 3 guys better suited to play the DT position in a 3-4, or 4-3) maybe it's why did we stock pile players who would be a better fit (I am speaking on your opinion here) for just 2 spots?  Coples needs to play somewhere, and with big Mo, Richardson, Ellis, and the other rotating DL guys, the Jets need to find a every down role, or close their to everydown just to justify the pick last year one could argue.

[Smashmouth]

Smash the real question isn't why isn't he playing inside, (they have 3 guys better suited to play the DT position in a 3-4, or 4-3) maybe it's why did we stock pile players who would be a better fit (I am speaking on your opinion here) for just 2 spots?  Coples needs to play somewhere, and with big Mo, Richardson, Ellis, and the other rotating DL guys, the Jets need to find a every down role, or close their to everydown just to justify the pick last year one could argue.

 

so that sounds a lot like holy crap we drafted 4 defensive lineman so lets convert one of them into an OLB because we can't use em all ...The position was arguably the deepest on the team and some felt that way when we drafted Coples so what do we do the next year draft another and do nothing to address the deeriorating LB position. I guess thats a good plan

[Matt39]

Rex wanted Coples bad, so he got him. Coaches get off on fixing headcases, especially if theyre talented. GMs hate headcases because they're career-killers if/when they implode.

As a tradeoff, Tannenbaum picked Stephen Hill in the second round. Rex is on record saying that he didn't want Hill. Hill is a GMs pick--great measurables, diamond in the rough-type that can make a GM look like a genius.

Rex, because he can, decided to start Hill right away to embarrass Tannenbaum and teach him a lesson about playing scout. We have proof-positive that Tannenbaum was screwing around with playing time (Vlad), so this was Rex's way of throwing Tanny over the pommel horse for ******* with his team.

But, Rex is paying extra attention to Coples because he wants to put that feather in his cap--that he took a player many had taken off their boards and turned him into an All-Pro. He'll bury Hill because Hill was Tannenbaum's thing, but he's going to nurture Coples like a baby lamb because that's his guy.

 

Where does CAA fit in all of this?

[Matt39]

Your statement is 100% correct, BUT the Giants in 07, and 11 (really 2011, Rex laid out the blueprint to stop the Brady, Moss era leading to Moss' cut, and the drafting of the 2 beast TE's IMO) are the only 2 teams that could create that kind of pressure with only a 4 man rush, no teams since including last years Giants can create that type of pressure from just 3, or 4 guys consistently, and MAYBE that is why we have drafted all these DL/OLB/DT players the last few years also, hoping we can find that magic 4 man rush.

 

P.S.

 

The only real way to beat the Patriots right now is to outscore them, and ball control, IF Brady, and Beli faced the Giants 2X's a year with that same ferocious pass rush you don't think those 2 would have come up with a counter for it?  We unfortunatley see them 2X's every season, and it is so much easier for them to come up with game plans to counter anything we showed them that was succesful in stopping them offensively.  Rex Ryan's D (with a lot of help from one D Revis) single handely ended the Randy Moss, Tom Brady ERA, I truley believe that, and as much as I hate the mother ****er, I give Beli all the props in the world for realizing this 3 weeks into a season, and having the balls to just up, and cut R Moss so he could get another game plan for T Brady to focus on, and perfect.

 

The Giants did see the Pats twice each year they beat them in the SB

[TnT]

I have this sneaking suspicion that:

2013 ota/training camp/preseason speculation talk of Coples dropping into coverage and rushing the QB as an OLB

EQUALS

2012 ota/training camp/preseason speculation talk of Tebow used as a weapon as a wildcat QB

AND IT JUST DOESNT F#CKIN HAPPEN VERY MUCH.

[SenorGato]

no its based off of watching him play with the Jets . The college scounting report exists and the 2 major gripes on Coples was his play droped off when moved to DE and he gives up on plays at times during games which makes you wonder does he have the motor to play OLB/ There is nothing wrong with me questioning the move with Coples.

 

Why would you want a DT who gives up on plays? Maybe they should just cut him. 

 

Scouting reports:

 

Summary: Coples enters the 2012 NFL Draft as the top 4-3 defensive end. He had a breakout 2010 season with 10 sacks, 15.5 tackles for loss, 59 tackles and two forced fumbles as a junior. He also showed the flexibility to rush from the inside at defensive tackle. His speed and quickness was a difficult task for guards. 

In his senior season, Coples faced constant double teams, but stayed reasonably productive. He totaled 55 tackles with 15 tackles for a loss, 7.5 sacks, three forced fumbles and a plethora of quarterback hurries. North Carolina also went to a 3-4 defense at times, and Coples played well as a five-technique defensive end. At the Senior Bowl, Coples was dominant in the one-on-one pass rushing drills and showed that he will make offenses pay when they single block him. He absolutely destroyed offensive tackle Zebrie Sanders with speed rushes around the corner and bull rushes through the right tackle. It was an impressive week that confirmed Coples' high draft grade. 

When Coples gets leverage, it is over. He has too much strength for tackles to hold back and is too fast for them to recover to move in front of. In the NFL, he would be best as a 4-3 defensive end where he can rush the passer with free abandon. Coples has the strength and size to be left defensive end, and when lining up there, his speed has been too much for right tackles to handle. He also has the speed to battle left tackles as a right defensive end. Left tackles don't typically see ends with Coples' power, size and speed. Coples is a solid run defender who holds his ground and can disrupt running plays that go the perimeter on his side. If Coples lands with a good coach who keeps him motivated and focused, he could be a Pro Bowl defensive end. 

 

Strengths: Prototypical measurables, including long arms – Flashes the ability to dominate a game and dictate how the offensive line makes their calls – Excellent first-step, reacts to the snap very quickly – Has the ability and power to deliver a crushing club move – Can anchor against the run – Incredible potential – Has some versatility, could play 4-3 DE, 3-4 DE if he bulks up a bit, or kick inside on passing downs, he even stands up on occasion – Decent in pursuit.

Weaknesses: Still a work in progress rushing the passer, needs to diversify his rush moves – Content to be blocked at times, should have more production – Can improve his hand use in disengaging from blockers – Should get his long arms up when not applying pressure – Needs to keep his pad level more consistent, gets a bit upright at times.

 

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2011/10/quinton-coples-scouting-report.html

 

 

As an end, Coples occasionally explodes off tape as a completely different player. When asked to engage one-on-one with tackles, Coples is able to use his size to throw them around pretty effectively ... at times. He will better disengage and flash through to the pocket from outside. As an interior defender, he's very effective when stunting or looping around, looking for gaps -- in these situations ,you see the speed that doesn't show up when he's in a smaller space. Also, as an end, he covers more ground in a bigger hurry -- as a run defender, he can rush into the backfield and show tackling skills that are hidden when he's an interior player. Directs himself well, gets up a good head of steam, and makes a fair amount of drag-down tackles in space.

From the end position, Coples is better at sliding off the single blocker and reaching out to make tackles -- this is where his size is actually an advantage. At times, even with technique that does him no favors, he'll simply overwhelm the blocker facing him -- putting tight ends straight up on Coples would seem to be a silly thing to do. Showed more pass-rush ability during Senior Bowl week when he was able to simply pin his ears back, which provides a beacon of hope.

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/shutdown-50-14-quinton-coples-north-carolina-235853544.html

 

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/elder_quinton_coples_scouting_report/10568575

 

Etc.

 

Most people expected him to play DE/OLB when he was drafted here, and it was a surprise to hear he would see more time on the line. He's got a huge ceiling as a pass rusher and OLB is just one more way to use him. Versatility is a good thing. 

 

You're not wrong in the sense that this is America and you can believe what you want to believe. You're probably wrong in the football sense. 

[T0mShane]

Draft Scout Snapshot: 2009: Finalist for the Ted Hendricks Award, given to the nation's premier defensive end…All-Atlantic Coast Conference first-team choice by the league's coaches and media…Started twelve games at the "Leo" (rush end) position, coming off the bench vs. Purdue…Guided a unit that led the nation in total defense (233.0 ypg), scoring defense (12.77 ppg), pass defense (150.15 ypg) and finished third in rushing defense (82.85 ypg)…Coples ranked tied for third in the nation, as he set ther school season-record with fourteen sacks for minus 111 yards…His 15.5 stops for losses of 113 yards led the team and ranked eighth in the conference…Also had one fumble recovery that he advanced 25 yards for a touchdown…Made just three plays vs. the pass, but on 35 running plays directed at him, the opposition was held to minus 41 yards (-1.17 ypc)…Four of his tackles came on third-down plays, adding two stops on goal-line plays…The opposition managed just four first downs in his territory, including three on the ground. 13 GP; 13 GS; 49 TT, 15 TFL, 8.5 SK, 1 INT, 2 PBU, 1 QBH; Second-team All-ACC in '08 2 GP; 0 GS; 1 TT; Suffered a broken left hand in the '05 season opener, was not ready to return until mid October and was redshirted. Recruited as a linebacker, but was switched to defensive end.

BOOM TAKE THAT SMASHMOUTH

[T0mShane]

(Just kidding, Smashmouth--that's Vernon Gholston's pre-draft write up, with the date, name, and conference changed.)

LULZ PREDRAFT WRITEUPS. RUSS LANDE IS A GENIUS.

[T0mShane]

LOLOLOL YARDBARKER.

[SayNoToDMC]

(Just kidding, Smashmouth--that's Vernon Gholston's pre-draft write up, with the date, name, and conference changed.)

LULZ PREDRAFT WRITEUPS. RUSS LANDE IS A GENIUS.

 

Watch your dick bro, Gato is the truth. JN's foremost expert on footballz personnel. Terry Bradway reads his thoughts and is all like whaaaaaat? He makes it seem so simple

[T0mShane]

Watch your dick bro, Gato is the truth. JN's foremost expert on footballz personnel. Terry Bradway reads his thoughts and is all like whaaaaaat? He makes it seem so simple

I call him Pimpy Linkstockings.

[Lupz27]

I have this sneaking suspicion that:

2013 ota/training camp/preseason speculation talk of Coples dropping into coverage and rushing the QB as an OLB

EQUALS

2012 ota/training camp/preseason speculation talk of Tebow used as a weapon as a wildcat QB

AND IT JUST DOESNT F#CKIN HAPPEN VERY MUCH.

 

 

I think Coples will end up being one of the guys who lines up standing up on 3rd downs, and not always in the same position, it will depend on what exotic blitz Rex dials up on the given play, Rex said he is going to get back to the aggressive style from 2009 which saw us send an overload blitz on every single passing down, so if the overload blitz is going to be an A gap blitz I think we will see Coples lined up as the Mike, and he, and one of the safties, or a rotating inside CB will be the 2 guys coming in the A gaps, and if its a left, or right side overload he wil be the standing backer on that side, I think Rex thinks this will be the best way to use him hoping he will be able to either find the unblocked holes to get a direct route to the QB with his size, and speed, or the OL keys on him, and he commands a double team when the overload blitz's are identified pre snap freeing up someone else to come free on the QB. 

 

I am not saying this will be a succesful strategy, just saying this could be what Rex is envisioning with Coples this year pass rush wise.

 

Also as someone else a few weeks back mentioned the Jets could play a lot of 4-3 under which really is just a different alignment of a hybrid 3-4 D, in these situations you can have Coples lined up what would seem as a DE, but in all reality he would be rushing against a OG not a OT, and if the OT does come down to block him, or double him this would free up the OLB to be free, or one, on one with a RB, or TE, and you could also use Coples in that spot with your best DL lined up where I suggested Coples would be in the 4-3 under so Coples could be the one who gets the chance to go one on one with the backer, or TE.

 

Like some have said I will give Rex the benifit of the doubt this year on his plans for his defense with the changed personnel, and the fact he has said he once again will take ownership, and call the plays, and design the scheme/gameplans like 2009.  He doesn't deserve this in any other area as HC, but on D I believe he does, you won't find many NFL guys who would dispute Rex is one of the brightest defensive minds in the league today, and maybe ever.  Unfortunatley most of those same people believe he is really dillusional thinking his Defense is good enough to win games by itself in this ERA of the NFL, and those people would be correct IMO. 

 

The day (if it ever comes, it may not) Rex takes his super aggressive thinking on the defensive side of the ball, and allows it to be applied to his offense is the day Rex Ryan will become a great NFL HC, hopefully if this day comes he is coaching the NYJ's not somewhere else.

[Lupz27]

so that sounds a lot like holy crap we drafted 4 defensive lineman so lets convert one of them into an OLB because we can't use em all ...The position was arguably the deepest on the team and some felt that way when we drafted Coples so what do we do the next year draft another and do nothing to address the deeriorating LB position. I guess thats a good plan

 

The draft choice of Richardson this year has nothing to do with Rex Ryan IMO, that was a Idzik pick, Idzik has no attachment to any player drafted prior to the 2013 draft, and I think he took the BPA on his board based on the fact this could be Ryan's last season as HC, and if it is, and the new HC wants to go to a 4-3 defense he will have all the correct talent up front to make a smooth easy transition, Idzik isn't thinking 2013 like Rex Ryan is, he is thinking 2015, not saying he isn't trying to field a winning team this year, but I think his plan is to MAKE SURE he has a winning team in 2015, next years draft will probably focus on gettin size, and speed at the offensive playmaking positions, and SPEED at Safety, and LB, I think that is his 2 year rebuild plan start in the trenches year 1 (I think our draft confirms that), then go get your playmakers on each side of the ball the following season in the draft, fill the remaing holes with some Talented Veteran LEADERS in free agency once the cap situation is straightened out, and ******* PRAY you find a QB capable of being a winner in this league along the way (The most important, and hardest thing to do), if G Smith isn't it, or there wasn't enough to say he is, or isn't after this year I fully expect the Jets to take another QB in the first 3 rounds of next years draft, and every year that Idzik is here until they find that guy, and if 2, or more turn out to LOOK capable GREAT, trade them for a couple of extra draft picks the following season like the Eagles did with Kolb, and Pats did with Cassel.

[Lupz27]

I find it highly amusing that the Jets drafting "4 DT types in 3 years" is supposed to indicate they should move to the 4-3.  Kenrick Ellis and WIlkerson are basically prototypical 3-4 players.  Coples is as much an OLB as a DT.  One guy might look at him and see Justin Tuck, but there is at least as much OLB in what I have seen.  RIchardson is the wild card, but I'd like to think that they just had him at the top of their board and drafted BAP.

 

Davis, Coples and Bush can all fly for their size and last year is when they tried to remedy the team speed issue ASAP.  Idzik doesn't seem that caught up in it.

 

It's funny the Jets draft a DL in the 1st, and they get killed because "they don't have a need at that position".  Yet when the Giants did it 3, or 4 years when they had "the best DL already" all you hear is what a great job the Giants did drafting the BPA on their board, and nobody complaining about where are the Giants going to play this guy.  Hopefully one day the Jets can turn this franchise from laughing stock organization to an organization that gets praise, or the "I won't question any moves these guys make" type of franchise even when it is a bad move alla the Giants, Steelers, Pats, Ravens.

[slats]

Coples' function as an OLB will essentially be that of a stand-up DE. He'll disrupt TE's attempting to go out for a pass, not cover them. He'll get after the passer, he'll contain the run. Having him learn some OLB enables the Jets to do more alignment shifts without shifting personnel. Offenses won't be able to tell what defense the Jets are in based solely on who's on the field. It's a way to get the team's best players on the field at the same time. They'll have Richardson working NT, 3-tech and 5-tech, too. They'll move Wilkerson inside and outside. They want versatility and the element of surprise. I like it.

As for Davis/Harris, I think you'll see the bigger, slower Davis taking on more of the Bart Scott plugger role, while Davis plays more in space. The questionable LB corps is bolstered by the Coples move, and having a safety like Allen who's really an additional LB out there. They drafted Milliner with hopes of keeping the CBs in man coverage the vast majority of the time, allowing the players in the middle of the field to cheat and help each other more.

[Smashmouth]

It's funny the Jets draft a DL in the 1st, and they get killed because "they don't have a need at that position".  Yet when the Giants did it 3, or 4 years when they had "the best DL already" all you hear is what a great job the Giants did drafting the BPA on their board, and nobody complaining about where are the Giants going to play this guy.  Hopefully one day the Jets can turn this franchise from laughing stock organization to an organization that gets praise, or the "I won't question any moves these guys make" type of franchise even when it is a bad move alla the Giants, Steelers, Pats, Ravens.

 

Lupz the Giants run a 4-3 so yeah they boosted the pass rush and were able to rush 4 and still get pressure. The Jets are not in that situation. That defensive line basically won then 2 SB's. Also compare the amount of Sacks the Jets produce from the Defensive line as compared to the Giants. I think the Jets should have been drafting LB's like they are drafting DL especially since our LB's have been getting old and slow and our DL has had the best depth on the entire team.  

 

You mentioned Rex in your other post and TBH I have no idea how much influence the has or had either way I dont like the picks. Does not mean they wont turn out to be great players and Im certainly not condeming them like I did Gholston from the second he was drafted I just think LB's would have made more sense.

[slats]

think the Jets should have been drafting LB's like they are drafting DL especially since our LB's have been getting old and slow and our DL has had the best depth on the entire team.  

No matter the position, drafting for need is a bad idea. Free agency is for needs, the draft is for BAPs. If Sheldon Richardson is a better pro than Jarvis Jones, the Jets made the right selection. If he's not, they didn't.

[Sperm Edwards]

There is really only one way to stop the Pats and thats putting pressure on Brady up the Middle. The Giants have given the league the blue print for that 2 times. Trying to beat the pats by covering Gronk and Hernandez will lose you games more often than not.

 

hey dingbat I make it very clear in many of my posts that players fill out ...I made that case with Coples and Wilkerson but now it seems we're going to move Coples to the OLB position for yet another experiment. You made your point about Demario being at 235 and Im fine with that ...no need for the sarcasm.

 

You really believe this stuff? That there is this simple magic "blueprint" that is so obvious to you but head coaches and defensive coordinators and GMs all over the league are oblivious to this because they don't watch game tape the way you do?

Both of those Giants’ defenses were in the bottom half of the league in both of their SB seasons.  So your genius plan is to emulate them because they had success against the same franchise twice in four games.  But sure, bull rush the pass with a copycat of something that worked twice – 3 SBs ago and 6 SBs ago – and NE is sure to lose every time because there is just no way to stop it.

Belichick, for a single game here or there, can be a stubborn mule who wants to prove that his gameplan was right even when it isn't working (see our playoff win vs NE in their house a few years ago).  That doesn’t mean it will give you the same outcome over and over and over again like some anti-Brady potion no matter how much you’ve convinced yourself of it.  Other than a meaningless final drive Brady had 230 yards with 1 TD and 1 pick against us. Try that same exact blueprint again - like building your entire D for this one gameplan - and with a healthy team BB/Brady would destroy us because they’ll be ready for it.

 

What works against NE - like with many other teams who eat up conventional defenses all season long - is surprise, not repeating the same gameplan.  I’d think you would know this by now.  

[Sperm Edwards]

It was a surprise how well the Giants’ front four played in the 2007 SB, plus NE’s whole offense looked like all they had to do was show up and 35 points would just appear on the scoreboard.  Look at Brady’s pre-game comments; they speak to that very arrogance.  Their OL just flat-out choked in 2007 and NE couldn’t run the ball worth a damn that year anyway (unlike today).

In 2011 Gronkowski was playing with a sprained ankle and 3 of their linemen were injured (one with back problems, one post-concussive, and one with a bad knee). It made sense to bull-rush Brady (and also because their crappy defense had little else to offer).  Even so, if not for that famous choke pass to a wide open Welker Brady would have added dozens of passing yards to his 275 & 2 TDs, and would have likely passed his way to a SB win. Instead of it looking like a brilliant plan by the Giants it would have looked foolish and stupid; like a DC who tried sticking his hand in the cookie jar one too many times.  

On top of all that, BJGE and Danny Woodhead aren’t their RBs anymore (let alone the likes of Laurence Maroney); their current crew is a bit more potent and their offense isn’t as one-dimensional.  To treat all NE teams identically from year to year and build your entire defensive personnel and scheme in such a way, because of a gameplan that caught NE by surprise 6 years ago, is hysterical. And you poke fun at Ryan’s wisdom.

[T0mShane]

Coples' function as an OLB will essentially be that of a stand-up DE. He'll disrupt TE's attempting to go out for a pass, not cover them. He'll get after the passer, he'll contain the run. Having him learn some OLB enables the Jets to do more alignment shifts without shifting personnel. Offenses won't be able to tell what defense the Jets are in based solely on who's on the field. It's a way to get the team's best players on the field at the same time. They'll have Richardson working NT, 3-tech and 5-tech, too. They'll move Wilkerson inside and outside. They want versatility and the element of surprise. I like it.

As for Davis/Harris, I think you'll see the bigger, slower Davis taking on more of the Bart Scott plugger role, while Davis plays more in space. The questionable LB corps is bolstered by the Coples move, and having a safety like Allen who's really an additional LB out there. They drafted Milliner with hopes of keeping the CBs in man coverage the vast majority of the time, allowing the players in the middle of the field to cheat and help each other more.

Versatility is something you strive for when you draft Mike Vrabel and you want to find a spot for him. IMO, they should be trying to make Coples as "versatile" as Jason Pierre-Paul or Julius Peppers, which is to say screw versatility. It reeks of over-coaching, and the end result will likely be burning a year of Coples' development asking him to be Bryan Thomas.

[JiFtheOracle]

It's just odd the way Rex has handled Coples, starting last year with the "benching" in OTAs, to parsing his playing time sporadically. You really have to wonder if Coples is a huge headache off the field, or if Rex has decided that Coples is his personal project. Lord knows he doesn't treat any other player that way. It's likewise strange that Coples' better moments seemed to come when he blew past a guard to get the sack or the pressure. I don't recall one time where he came off the edge to make a play. I won't really worry about it until I hear the dreaded "we've asked him to lose twenty pounds" line that seems almost inevitable at this point.

 

FWIW, I distinctly remember him making plays when he was on the edge.  Standing up multiple lineman and getting some tackles for loss or freeing up someone to make a play.

 

If you look at his splits, he spent more time standing over C/G's but his production was similar no matter where they lined him up.  Play run up the middle he did have the most impact on but he was pretty solid to plays going right or left too. 

[slats]

Versatility is something you strive for when you draft Mike Vrabel and you want to find a spot for him. IMO, they should be trying to make Coples as "versatile" as Jason Pierre-Paul or Julius Peppers, which is to say screw versatility. It reeks of over-coaching, and the end result will likely be burning a year of Coples' development asking him to be Bryan Thomas.

I don't think they're doing much more than that. They're not turning him into a conventional LB, IMO. They might drop him into coverage once in a while to disguise the rush, but in reality they'll just want him to be able to attack the passer from a two, three, or four point stance, either on the line or behind it. They'll want to roll him towards any mismatch they can find. Try to do the overload tricks Rex loves without having to blitz.

[Bleedin Green]

I don't think they're doing much more than that. They're not turning him into a conventional LB, IMO. They might drop him into coverage once in a while to disguise the rush, but in reality they'll just want him to be able to attack the passer from a two, three, or four point stance, either on the line or behind it. They'll want to roll him towards any mismatch they can find. Try to do the overload tricks Rex loves without having to blitz.

 

Exactly.  There's a reason the Jets brought in Rex's boy Barnes, who Rex desperately tried to get here a couple of years back, and brought Pace back as well, and it's not so Coples could perform as a conventional full-time LB.  Rex is hoping for Coples to finally be the solution to the Jets' pass rush woes, and wants to be able to move him around and bring pressure from all over the field.

 

As far as the theory of the Coples move being solely based on the Richardson drafting, there has been talk of this move for over a year now.  From Rex personally working Coples out as a LB at his pro-day to the talk of comparing his development play for Coples to that of Suggs, it's something that clearly has been on Rex's mind for a while now.  I do agree with the idea that Rex has clearly taken Coples on as his own little pet project, but I think this has been part of the plan all along.  Of course now it's just a matter of seeing how well it really works.

[Sperm Edwards]

People are making it sound like this is a Shaun Ellis to DT move.  Ellis was already a productive, entrenched starter as a DE.  Coples was nothing yet last year except a situational guy.

 

If it flops, then Rex was foolish.  If it works out, then Rex just found a way to get an enormous pass rusher on the field at the same time as Wilkerson and Richardson and Ellis.

 

People get too caught up in height/weight/40 times.  The kid is either going to take to the position or he isn't.  But it's not like he was tearing the league a new one on the line anyway no matter what he did in college or at the combine.  If he was totally unsuited for the position Rex would know it, having coached - successfully coached - some pretty awesome players in the front 7 over the past decade-plus, and having seen what Coples can do in games and in practice for a year.  It doesn't mean he's immune to poor judgment on that side of the ball; far from it.  But it's pre-season and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I see it flop.

[Smashmouth]

You really believe this stuff? That there is this simple magic "blueprint" that is so obvious to you but head coaches and defensive coordinators and GMs all over the league are oblivious to this because they don't watch game tape the way you do?

Its not a magic plan it worked for the Giants because they had the guys up front on the D-line to make it work. I never said anyone was oblivious its pretty much out in the open that Brady Likes to step up in the pocket and pick teams apart, you disrupt that and you disrupt Brady/ Sure GM's and coaches all over the league have the blueprint what they lack is the players to make it happen.

Both of those Giants’ defenses were in the bottom half of the league in both of their SB seasons.  So your genius plan is to emulate them because they had success against the same franchise twice in four games.  But sure, bull rush the pass with a copycat of something that worked twice – 3 SBs ago and 6 SBs ago – and NE is sure to lose every time because there is just no way to stop it.

Yes  both of those Giants Defenses were at the bottom of the league but that was due to injuries throughout those seasons. In the end of the year and in the playoffs that team was killing QB's and they hammered Brady in the SB. Its not about when it happened its about the fact it heppened to Brady you force him out of the pocket and he becomes a very ordinary QB.

Belichick, for a single game here or there, can be a stubborn mule who wants to prove that his gameplan was right even when it isn't working (see our playoff win vs NE in their house a few years ago).  That doesn’t mean it will give you the same outcome over and over and over again like some anti-Brady potion no matter how much you’ve convinced yourself of it.  Other than a meaningless final drive Brady had 230 yards with 1 TD and 1 pick against us. Try that same exact blueprint again - like building your entire D for this one gameplan - and with a healthy team BB/Brady would destroy us because they’ll be ready for it.

 

What works against NE - like with many other teams who eat up conventional defenses all season long - is surprise, not repeating the same gameplan.  I’d think you would know this by now.  

I think you would know by now as Brady goes so do the Pats, Period. If your Defensive line is stout enough to disrupt him where he excells you can take the Pats game plan and throw it out the window. And yes it has Been obvious that if you disrupt a QB to the extent the Giants Disrupted Brady with only the front 4 rushing and the occasional blitz you will come out on top a better percentage of the time then if you didnt .

 

Oh and BTW the Pats do run the same game plan on most teams. They work the slot receiver and TE's up the middle of the field and basically dare you to stop it. Its the reason why Welker has 110 catches every year and leads the team. No one has stoped it so BB and Brady keep doing it. There is nothing special to the Pats offense they are pretty much "here you go try and stop us" not many stop it. Sure its not always that black and white, Im sure the Pats throw in wrinkles here and there but for the most part simplicity and fantastic atheletes usually prevail more often than not.

[Sperm Edwards]

Its not a magic plan it worked for the Giants because they had the guys up front on the D-line to make it work. I never said anyone was oblivious its pretty much out in the open that Brady Likes to step up in the pocket and pick teams apart, you disrupt that and you disrupt Brady/ Sure GM's and coaches all over the league have the blueprint what they lack is the players to make it happen.

Yes  both of those Giants Defenses were at the bottom of the league but that was due to injuries throughout those seasons. In the end of the year and in the playoffs that team was killing QB's and they hammered Brady in the SB. Its not about when it happened its about the fact it heppened to Brady you force him out of the pocket and he becomes a very ordinary QB.

I think you would know by now as Brady goes so do the Pats, Period. If your Defensive line is stout enough to disrupt him where he excells you can take the Pats game plan and throw it out the window. And yes it has Been obvious that if you disrupt a QB to the extent the Giants Disrupted Brady with only the front 4 rushing and the occasional blitz you will come out on top a better percentage of the time then if you didnt .

 

Oh and BTW the Pats do run the same game plan on most teams. They work the slot receiver and TE's up the middle of the field and basically dare you to stop it. Its the reason why Welker has 110 catches every year and leads the team. No one has stoped it so BB and Brady keep doing it. There is nothing special to the Pats offense they are pretty much "here you go try and stop us" not many stop it. Sure its not always that black and white, Im sure the Pats throw in wrinkles here and there but for the most part simplicity and fantastic atheletes usually prevail more often than not.

 

 

Sorry, but you are most definitely making it out like it is some secret formula that only the genius Giants were smart enough to discover and repeat.  And you're then using that as some justification to criticize everyone associated with the team who doesn't wear a #6 on his jersey.  Lord, to read your post you'd think that Brady is the only QB to step up into a pocket and is capable of little else.  Remove his ability to do that & he sucks; that's how I read this master plan of yours.

 

Like I said, using that same little strategy, the Giants were a choke pass away from losing a SB to Brady in the air.  His one pick he was outside the pocket and just flat-out underthrew Gronk who stopped running or was just slow due to a bum ankle.

 

You are drawing all these conclusions based on outcomes rather than actual reasons why a win or loss occurred.  A healthy Gronk, a healthy OL, and one non-choke easy pass and Brady eats up the Giants for 340 yards in that second SB, beloved pressure up the middle and all.

 

The Giants defenses sucked.  They stepped up in that first SB and I give them all the credit in the world.  But you are confusing that with some magic scheme that is to be emulated lest ye be kept out of Smashmouth's Wisdom Clubhouse.  I think you literally believe NE will walk right into the strength of a defense as though Brady was some dope one trick pony.

[JoeKlecko]

No matter the position, drafting for need is a bad idea. Free agency is for needs, the draft is for BAPs. If Sheldon Richardson is a better pro than Jarvis Jones, the Jets made the right selection. If he's not, they didn't.

 

While I basically agree with this premise, there are at least 3-4 positions where this is not true.  At QB, pass rushing OLB or DE, tall, fast WR and ball-hawking FS.  Unless those guys are older, coming off major injuries, or have had continuous off the field problems, those guys are never available as FAs.  If you want studs at those positions, you have to draft them.  That's where need, value and BPA have to meet.  You HAVE to have a QB that gives you a chance to win.  If you want a serious, consistent pass rush in a base 3-4 D, you have to have a speedy, talented OLB and you have to draft him.  If you want a WR that can stretch the field and is a threat to score from anywhere, you have to draft him.

[Smashmouth]

Sorry, but you are most definitely making it out like it is some secret formula that only the genius Giants were smart enough to discover and repeat.  And you're then using that as some justification to criticize everyone associated with the team who doesn't wear a #6 on his jersey.  Lord, to read your post you'd think that Brady is the only QB to step up into a pocket and is capable of little else.  Remove his ability to do that & he sucks; that's how I read this master plan of yours.

 

Like I said, using that same little strategy, the Giants were a choke pass away from losing a SB to Brady in the air.  His one pick he was outside the pocket and just flat-out underthrew Gronk who stopped running or was just slow due to a bum ankle.

 

You are drawing all these conclusions based on outcomes rather than actual reasons why a win or loss occurred.  A healthy Gronk, a healthy OL, and one non-choke easy pass and Brady eats up the Giants for 340 yards in that second SB, beloved pressure up the middle and all.

 

The Giants defenses sucked.  They stepped up in that first SB and I give them all the credit in the world.  But you are confusing that with some magic scheme that is to be emulated lest ye be kept out of Smashmouth's Wisdom Clubhouse.  I think you literally believe NE will walk right into the strength of a defense as though Brady was some dope one trick pony.

 

Hey Sperm the ONLY person talking about some magic scheme here is YOU. You say some sh*t so much you actully begin to belive it. Your assuming that I think this is some type of Master plan WHEN I NEVER EVER said that at all. What I was basing the pressure on was the Giants talented Front 4 who just happened to step up during the late season and throughout the playoffs. Reason I brought that up was because the Giants run a 4-3 defense and in that scheme building a solid front 4 is paramount to creating pressure. thats what some of the better defenses in history including our vaunted Sack Exchange were about, the front 4 anchored the entire defense because they could apply serious pressure without much in the way of blitzes.

 

In the 3-4 its the exact opposite they build by drafting Numerous LB's like the Giants of the Mid 80's did/ Even though they had LT and Harry Carson and Gary Reasons they still drafted top prospect Carl Banks. The Defnsive lineman in the 3-4 have a much different job than those in a 4-3 and I do not believe in using top draft picks in that area in that sort of defense unless your talking Nose Tackle. The modle is simple, just look at the teams who have had success and how they were built. Even the Ravens did not turn to the DL until they had a solid LB corp in place  in the early 2000's

 

On the other hand the Jets who also run a predominant 3-4 decide drafting all dfensive Lineman was a good way to approach it. everyone has the excuse BPA but Im calling bullsh*t on that. The Jets should have been adding LB's to a slow corp. but they have not now they are converting a 290 pound defensive lineman who is now down to 280 into a part time OLB. Why ? Because the LB's on this football team SUCK.

 

I hope Coples works out I really do but Im NOT happy with the way this team is currently being built. Mangini did a very admirable job building this team and Rex poped in and brought it to 2 AFCCG with much better defensive coaching but the fact remains this defense has slipped each year because the personnel has slipped. Lets see if this defense gets back to what it did in 09 then come talk to me about Rex. I think hes a good defensive coach nit as great as some hype him and not as bad as some bash him.

[slats]

While I basically agree with this premise, there are at least 3-4 positions where this is not true.  At QB, pass rushing OLB or DE, tall, fast WR and ball-hawking FS.  Unless those guys are older, coming off major injuries, or have had continuous off the field problems, those guys are never available as FAs.  If you want studs at those positions, you have to draft them.  That's where need, value and BPA have to meet.  You HAVE to have a QB that gives you a chance to win.  If you want a serious, consistent pass rush in a base 3-4 D, you have to have a speedy, talented OLB and you have to draft him.  If you want a WR that can stretch the field and is a threat to score from anywhere, you have to draft him.

I agree on the QB, but that's it. If you pass on a better prospect at tackle, DT, etc., for a more of a project at pass rusher or WR, you'll probably live to regret it.

And FS? How did that make your list? There are a couple great ones out there, and it would be nice to have one, but it's hardly a high value position.

[Sperm Edwards]

Hey Sperm the ONLY person talking about some magic scheme here is YOU. You say some sh*t so much you actully begin to belive it. Your assuming that I think this is some type of Master plan WHEN I NEVER EVER said that at all. What I was basing the pressure on was the Giants talented Front 4 who just happened to step up during the late season and throughout the playoffs. Reason I brought that up was because the Giants run a 4-3 defense and in that scheme building a solid front 4 is paramount to creating pressure. thats what some of the better defenses in history including our vaunted Sack Exchange were about, the front 4 anchored the entire defense because they could apply serious pressure without much in the way of blitzes.

 

In the 3-4 its the exact opposite they build by drafting Numerous LB's like the Giants of the Mid 80's did/ Even though they had LT and Harry Carson and Gary Reasons they still drafted top prospect Carl Banks. The Defnsive lineman in the 3-4 have a much different job than those in a 4-3 and I do not believe in using top draft picks in that area in that sort of defense unless your talking Nose Tackle. The modle is simple, just look at the teams who have had success and how they were built. Even the Ravens did not turn to the DL until they had a solid LB corp in place  in the early 2000's

 

On the other hand the Jets who also run a predominant 3-4 decide drafting all dfensive Lineman was a good way to approach it. everyone has the excuse BPA but Im calling bullsh*t on that. The Jets should have been adding LB's to a slow corp. but they have not now they are converting a 290 pound defensive lineman who is now down to 280 into a part time OLB. Why ? Because the LB's on this football team SUCK.

 

I hope Coples works out I really do but Im NOT happy with the way this team is currently being built. Mangini did a very admirable job building this team and Rex poped in and brought it to 2 AFCCG with much better defensive coaching but the fact remains this defense has slipped each year because the personnel has slipped. Lets see if this defense gets back to what it did in 09 then come talk to me about Rex. I think hes a good defensive coach nit as great as some hype him and not as bad as some bash him.

 

I think that what they're doing is making the defense as versatile as possible.  Defenses like we had with the NYSE were in a different time and the rules were set up differently.  As great as Klecko & Gastineau were at getting to the QB, all of those sacks didn't occur in 1 second.  Coverage sacks were easier to get back then because you were allowed to be a lot more aggressive with the receivers.  They were also just different in that they were so enormous for their time and still quick/fast.

 

With the Giants, they got hot and their D played better than they really are.  Combine that with the arrogance of the 17*-1 Pats thinking their sh*t didn't stink, combined with supposed genius BB not adjusting his gameplan that wasn't working.  In other words, there's a little more to it than Brady being less able to step up in the pocket like some clod who's incapable of doing anything else.

 

I think you're looking at what was done in one instance and making a grand assumption it is the recipe for success if only the stupid Jets would follow it, and I would direct your own comments back at yourself; that you seem to actually believe that the Jets need only copy the Giants and poof! we crap all over Brady's face every time we play.  Except it doesn't work like that in real life and I'd expect you should know that by now; what they say about the best laid plans and all that.

 

I'm not writing Coples in as a success story at OLB.  He may be a total flop.  But what I'm not doing it killing it before I see the results.  I think it's interesting and if it works out our defense is going to be nasty and unpredictable, and that's a headache to overcome for an offense.  Just when a team thinks they've got a gameplan, Rex can put his 4 beasts on the line and screw up their plans.  Adjust to that and he can swing Coples outside.  

 

Now that's all theory / theoretical upside and all that, and it's great if it works.  

 

I guess the difference in the way we look at this is I'm intrigued to see if it works, and I don't believe there is a weight limit whereby if a player is over a certain imaginary line he belongs elsewhere.  I think this year is a great time to check it out, since we're going to win zero superbowls this year no matter what; there were too many holes to fill in 1 season anyway.

 

Of all the things the team should be doing this year, they should be seeing where there is potential and where there is need for a more realistic title run in the future.