the truth about John "the cap guy" Idzik

[Sperm Edwards]

Mehta or Cimini would be routed off the Giants beat which is why Cimini never got the Giants beat despite begging for it for twenty years. Mehta is supposed to be an all-NFL reporter this season and he's spent exactly three days at Giants camp. The Giants don't play that sh*t. Even the Fire Coughlin storyline was restricted to his win-loss record. The Jets beat, historically, has been treated as the Circus Beat, and they bitched about Parcells and Mangini the same way. It's an entirely different job than the Giants beat.

 

What's Mehta going to write that would advance his career? Hatched-pieces on a 2-time SB winner (the more recent being just the year before last)?

 

Mehta writes the way he does for attention.  But the kind of attention he'd get by writing anything Jets-like about the Giants would not accomplish his goal.  I don't follow these guys that closely but if Mehta is supposed to be all-NFL as much as about the Jets that's news to me.  I seem to have missed him writing as many articles about other individual NFL teams as he has about the Jets, even this season.  When I saw him get interviewed on NFLN the day after the green/white scrimmage they were only interested in asking him Jets stuff not any other team.

 

The Giants have marketed themselves differently than the Jets, and a lot of that has to do with the personalities involved.  

 

Herm was a fool's fool (and still is).  I half think he's on TV to help make other people look smart.  The other reason is the inadvertent/unintentional comic relief he provides every other time he opens his mouth.

 

Mangini was a tool's tool (though he seems to have lightened up after no one wanted to play with him anymore).

 

Rex certainly acts the part of the fool's fool.  I stop short of giving him Herm status because he knows defense like few others where Herm knew Fig Newtons.

 

Then you have the (recent) pre-Idzik GMs:

 

Bradway: scout who got promoted too high.  The guy traded up to #4 in the draft the day BEFORE the draft, to grab a player (DRob) who he didn't know would be available yet.  That stupidity is only overshadowed by unfortunately getting the guy he wanted.  Plenty more, and my brain is suppressing me from most of it probably to protect itself.

 

Tannenbaum: cap guy who got promoted too high.  Enough recent references to his poor performance that I'm not going to try to do it in one sentence or two.

 

 

As far as Idzik, he's kind of in a tough spot media-wise. What's he supposed to do, give interviews and clue them in on his plan? His plan from day one was to gut the team of mega-priced players who weren't performing to the level of their contracts, and ditch Revis because he wasn't signing anything that didn't have a 16 followed by six zeros, and didn't want to lose out on his one opportunity to get something of value out of losing Revis.  

 

He can't plainly say, week after week, interview after interview, "This is a rebuilding year. I'm not actively trying to make the team suck, but I can't wholly prevent it so I'm not going to piss away future years with a real chance so we might win another game or two in a lost-cause season." A team needs a real QB, and when he took over we did not have one.  It remains to be seen if we still don't have one, but he at least made the effort without overvaluing who was available at the position in the draft.  I'll root for them to win every week but in hindsight I'd be pissed off if we used up another $10-15M of cap space - which will be pushed ahead to 2014 - trying to make this season a little better (but still ultimately fail).  How the hell is he supposed to feed that to the media?

 

I don't agree with everything he's done, and admit giving him more benefit of the doubt than he deserves just because he isn't Tannenbaum, but overall I like the job he's doing.  It is hard to assemble a team on the cheap and not have a bunch of those acquisitions flop.  If they didn't have a good chance of flopping, the players wouldn't have been acquired so cheaply.  Also the flops he's made haven't been that costly, and I'd rather see him make cheaper mistakes with guys who are injury-prone - and see the results - than costly ones.  A lot of what I like is what he hasn't done, and wrote a more extensive post about it some weeks ago.

[SenorGato]

So the Jets DID hire a Football Man?

 

 

I do believe I see steel in that glare. Yes! 

[T0mShane]

What's Mehta going to write that would advance his career? Hatched-pieces on a 2-time SB winner (the more recent being just the year before last)?

Mehta writes the way he does for attention. But the kind of attention he'd get by writing anything Jets-like about the Giants would not accomplish his goal. I don't follow these guys that closely but if Mehta is supposed to be all-NFL as much as about the Jets that's news to me. I seem to have missed him writing as many articles about other individual NFL teams as he has about the Jets, even this season. When I saw him get interviewed on NFLN the day after the green/white scrimmage they were only interested in asking him Jets stuff not any other team.

The Giants have marketed themselves differently than the Jets, and a lot of that has to do with the personalities involved.

Herm was a fool's fool (and still is). I half think he's on TV to help make other people look smart. The other reason is the inadvertent/unintentional comic relief he provides every other time he opens his mouth.

Mangini was a tool's tool (though he seems to have lightened up after no one wanted to play with him anymore).

Rex certainly acts the part of the fool's fool. I stop short of giving him Herm status because he knows defense like few others where Herm knew Fig Newtons.

Then you have the (recent) pre-Idzik GMs:

Bradway: scout who got promoted too high. The guy traded up to #4 in the draft the day BEFORE the draft, to grab a player (DRob) who he didn't know would be available yet. That stupidity is only overshadowed by unfortunately getting the guy he wanted. Plenty more, and my brain is suppressing me from most of it probably to protect itself.

Tannenbaum: cap guy who got promoted too high. Enough recent references to his poor performance that I'm not going to try to do it in one sentence or two.

As far as Idzik, he's kind of in a tough spot media-wise. What's he supposed to do, give interviews and clue them in on his plan? His plan from day one was to gut the team of mega-priced players who weren't performing to the level of their contracts, and ditch Revis because he wasn't signing anything that didn't have a 16 followed by six zeros, and didn't want to lose out on his one opportunity to get something of value out of losing Revis.

He can't plainly say, week after week, interview after interview, "This is a rebuilding year. I'm not actively trying to make the team suck, but I can't wholly prevent it so I'm not going to piss away future years with a real chance so we might win another game or two in a lost-cause season." A team needs a real QB, and when he took over we did not have one. It remains to be seen if we still don't have one, but he at least made the effort without overvaluing who was available at the position in the draft. I'll root for them to win every week but in hindsight I'd be pissed off if we used up another $10-15M of cap space - which will be pushed ahead to 2014 - trying to make this season a little better (but still ultimately fail). How the hell is he supposed to feed that to the media?

I don't agree with everything he's done, and admit giving him more benefit of the doubt than he deserves just because he isn't Tannenbaum, but overall I like the job he's doing. It is hard to assemble a team on the cheap and not have a bunch of those acquisitions flop. If they didn't have a good chance of flopping, the players wouldn't have been acquired so cheaply. Also the flops he's made haven't been that costly, and I'd rather see him make cheaper mistakes with guys who are injury-prone - and see the results - than costly ones. A lot of what I like is what he hasn't done, and wrote a more extensive post about it some weeks ago.

http://thejetsblog.com/nyjets/manish-mehta-moves-on-from-jets-beat/

Other than that, we agree on most everything here. It's considerably easier to write the sensationalistic story regarding the Jets because of their personalities coughbuffoons. But, the Giants have had their share of buffoonish stories to write that never get written because Hanlon is the gatekeeper there. Back to Jason's point about Idzik's personality being an issue in the media, I just don't see it being a factor unless/until the team he builds fails. For the reasons you outlined above, and others, there isn't much to be gained by cozying up to Mehta, Cimini, et al.

[T0mShane]

So the Jets DID hire a Football Man?

I do believe I see steel in that glare. Yes!

Still can't believe he didn't close on that 6 yr/$75 mil deal for Revis

[SenorGato]

Still can't believe he didn't close on that 6 yr/$75 mil deal for Revis

 

Yeah but Revis was asking for all those guarantees! 

[flgreen]

Idzik is going to have two major issues in NY. The first is that people are soon going to realize he is not much different than what the Jets already had in terms of cap management. Not that its a bad thing but people killed Tannenbaum towards the end and hes the same kind of guy. Look at the Seattle contracts given to guys like Sidney Rice, Zach Miller, and even Marshawn Lynch. These were wild contracts for questionable guys. Lynch worked out but they paid him ridiculous money for what he had done leading up to that. They dont believe in the offseason stuff the same way and wont get as complex as the Revis stuff, but the general theme is the same. Over-valuations of questionable talent. If they didnt land Russell Wilson in the draft last year Idzik is probably not a GM in the league, but Wilson got the Seahawks front office noticed everywhere. Without him they would have been a strong defensive team that finished 7-9.  That doesnt get anyone a new job.

 

The bigger issue is that he is Mangini level secretive and you have already seen the press start to turn on him for that. He basically wouldnt let reporters report during camp. Florham Park is back to being the Fortress of Solitude. Mangini only survived as long as he did because he won in 2006. But the way he has run the team so far has had people skip the honeymoon period and basically treat him the same way they would have treated Tannenbaum if he was still here. Thats why you are reading articles about how he did nothing to help the team, picked up dud QBs, whiffed on his RB contracts, etc...He doesnt need to be like Rex by any means but I think he needs to adjust to NY and the expectations of those who are fans of the team. 

 

 

Excellent post

 

IMO the GM should be a cap and $ guy, but he must have an excellent scout that he trusts.   In theory the Jets have that in Bradway.   The rumors/leaks at the end of Tannenbaum's reign was that he wasn't listening to Bradway , and was trying to play the scout role.  Don't know if that's true, but they did retain Bradway.......again.

 

As far as the " Fortress of Solitude" goes, that is a big problem with the NYC media, and your right the fact that he forbid the scribes to even relate what formations the O was using during camp isn't going to sit well with the media.  They will be after him soon, and in all honesty he has given them ammunition with Garard, Goodson, now Milliner looking a bit shaky. 

 

If they don't win, and soon, the fans will pick up on it quickly, but as you mentioned as long as Mangini won, the fans loved him.  The same will be true for Idzik,  if Smith goes bad, he's in trouble

[jbone]

Unbelievable.  Tranny spoke to everyone to get his name on the back pages to satisfy his ego and it didn't help the team one bit.  He allowed Rex to make a circus of the Jets.  Idzik eschews the spotlight and does his work behind the scenes, brings some class and intelligence to the team and you kill him for that and make snide comments like "Fortress of Solitude" and saying he wouldn't "let reporters report"?  Even hacks like Mehta and Cimini didn't accuse Idzik of that.  You call yourself a Jets fan? Unreal.  Some Jets fans.  With an attitude like that you deserve the circus and an 0-16 record every year.

Um, no.

 

Know your roll, Joe.

[kay_gee]

Mehta or Cimini would be routed off the Giants beat which is why Cimini never got the Giants beat despite begging for it for twenty years. Mehta is supposed to be an all-NFL reporter this season and he's spent exactly three days at Giants camp. The Giants don't play that sh*t. Even the Fire Coughlin storyline was restricted to his win-loss record. The Jets beat, historically, has been treated as the Circus Beat, and they bitched about Parcells and Mangini the same way. It's an entirely different job than the Giants beat.

I tend to agree with this due to the pattern developing at the Star Ledger. The first job a football writer gets is the Jets beat, does a good job (Vrentes and Orr did, anyway) and then when their Giants beat writer leaves for bigger/better things, the Jets writer is moved to the Giants beat. It's particularly infuriating because Vrentes and Orr were my favorite Jets writers during their tenures.

[slats]

Excellent post

 

IMO the GM should be a cap and $ guy, but he must have an excellent scout that he trusts.   In theory the Jets have that in Bradway.   The rumors/leaks at the end of Tannenbaum's reign was that he wasn't listening to Bradway , and was trying to play the scout role.  Don't know if that's true, but they did retain Bradway.......again.

 

As far as the " Fortress of Solitude" goes, that is a big problem with the NYC media, and your right the fact that he forbid the scribes to even relate what formations the O was using during camp isn't going to sit well with the media.  They will be after him soon, and in all honesty he has given them ammunition with Garard, Goodson, now Milliner looking a bit shaky. 

 

If they don't win, and soon, the fans will pick up on it quickly, but as you mentioned as long as Mangini won, the fans loved him.  The same will be true for Idzik,  if Smith goes bad, he's in trouble

I feel the opposite. The GM should be a very strong personnel guy, a guy capable of judging talent on his own and not reliant on someone else for such a critical function of the job. The world is littered with accountants, and a guy being considered for any GM position should have a basic idea about the numbers, but talent evaluation is the real skill.

As far as Idzik is concerned, he's going to need to do a lot better next year. This year was easy. He identified problems, and eliminated a lot of them. Any fan paying attention would've made similar moves. Trade Revis, dump Scott, Pace (initially), Greene. Identifying the problem is the easy part, fixing the problems is harder.

He identified Sanchez as a problem. Again, easy. But failed to bring in a veteran capable of replacing him in a weak year for QBs in the draft. Unless he got real lucky with Geno, he's going to have to go back to the QB position in a serious way next year. High draft pick, trade, expensive FA, something.

He identified RB as an issue, and went in pretty heavily on two vets who haven't contributed yet. I liked Goodson better than Ivory, initially, but then -unlike John Idzik- I don't have a former FBI guy vetting these people. So far, those moves aren't paying off, either. It's a position you draft. Going against the grain by acquiring vets, and then having them not work out, puts more of a spotlight on those moves. They have time to work out, though.

The draft was largely put together by a few people he's since let go. It'll remain to be seen whether or not he's improved the front office. Really not thrilled with the pedigree of his personnel expert. But that's why I think the GM should be the personnel expert.

[flgreen]

I feel the opposite. The GM should be a very strong personnel guy, a guy capable of judging talent on his own and not reliant on someone else for such a critical function of the job. The world is littered with accountants, and a guy being considered for any GM position should have a basic idea about the numbers, but talent evaluation is the real skill.

As far as Idzik is concerned, he's going to need to do a lot better next year. This year was easy. He identified problems, and eliminated a lot of them. Any fan paying attention would've made similar moves. Trade Revis, dump Scott, Pace (initially), Greene. Identifying the problem is the easy part, fixing the problems is harder.

He identified Sanchez as a problem. Again, easy. But failed to bring in a veteran capable of replacing him in a weak year for QBs in the draft. Unless he got real lucky with Geno, he's going to have to go back to the QB position in a serious way next year. High draft pick, trade, expensive FA, something.

He identified RB as an issue, and went in pretty heavily on two vets who haven't contributed yet. I liked Goodson better than Ivory, initially, but then -unlike John Idzik- I don't have a former FBI guy vetting these people. So far, those moves aren't paying off, either. It's a position you draft. Going against the grain by acquiring vets, and then having them not work out, puts more of a spotlight on those moves. They have time to work out, though.

The draft was largely put together by a few people he's since let go. It'll remain to be seen whether or not he's improved the front office. Really not thrilled with the pedigree of his personnel expert. But that's why I think the GM should be the personnel expert.

 

The only reason I disagree with you is that being an effective scout, or talent evaluator, just takes so much time.  Pouring over thousands of hours of film.  Watching, and making decisions on some small school RB in the mid west.   

 

Just to much to do and still do the GM job, which has tons of hours just dealing with idiots like our media, and PR.  That was Bradway's problem.

 

Both positions are arguable.  I guess the real key, whether you are cap, or personnel,  is to have good people right below you that you can delegate responsible to.  And dump on when things go wrong.

 

Just like the real world

[slats]

The only reason I disagree with you is that being an effective scout, or talent evaluator, just takes so much time.  Pouring over thousands of hours of film.  Watching, and making decisions on some small school RB in the mid west.   

 

Just to much to do and still do the GM job, which has tons of hours just dealing with idiots like our media, and PR.  That was Bradway's problem.

 

Both positions are arguable.  I guess the real key, whether you are cap, or personnel,  is to have good people right below you that you can delegate responsible to.  And dump on when things go wrong.

 

Just like the real world

Once the guy's a GM, I wouldn't expect him to be doing the scouting anymore. It's just that, when there's a debate over which player to take in the draft (or sign as a FA), the GM should have the ability to then break down the film on a few finalists and come to his own conclusions - rather than having to rely on an underling.

A genius personnel guy as the GM with a pit bull working the contracts under him would be the way I'd try to put a front office together.

[JoeKlecko]

You're a bit off-base here.  I didn't read any of this as snide, he didn't say "let reporters report" anywhere in his post, and he certainly doesn't crave any circus from anything I've read by him (including the business-like way he conducts himself as a fan).

When Tannenbaum and Mangini first started out here they were both very tight-lipped about the team. That's the reference to Florham Park being "back" to being the Fortress of Solitude (even though we were at Hofstra back in '06); that's what it was in Tannenbaum's first year as GM. The media was brutal to both Tannenbaum and Mangini and even the players they brought in, where at one point a douchebag like Cannizzaro writing a smear piece on D'Brickashaw for having some fun with the reporters by running from them while laughing in his first camp as a rookie.  

Slowly they adapted to the job (well Tannenbaum did) in that they realized if you ignore the media, and they have less info to write about, then they'll fill their columns with hit pieces on the GM and/or HC. Talk about a reversal, the team went from being info Lock down Tannenbaum first year to doing Hard Knocks in just a few seasons.

The "need to adjust" Jason's speaking of is looking at it as self-preservation from Idzik's POV. He'll learn that, particularly when the team is going to do poorly in a rebuilding season like this one, if left to their own devices the media's going to rip the team for doing poorly and the GM who put Nice Rex the Human Media Soundbite in the position to fail and get fired.  It's bad PR for Idzik to do a total media shutout.  If they win, it won't matter.  If they don't, he'll be painted as enemy #1.  I read his post and took it exactly in that way.

FYI (since I figure from your post you just didn't realize) Jason is the lousy Jets fan that has compiled the cheat sheets for the Jets salary cap that all of us - including all the team's beat writers - have used for several years. He also writes some articles that break down film and drafts as well from time to time.  He's also a hell of a nice guy despite having his work stolen outright by web competitors, or not even having the courtesy of a reference by thousands of fans and dozens (now probably hundreds) of beat reporters.

 

Here's the old Jets cap site:  http://www.nyjetscap.com/

Here's the new one that also has this work done for every team: http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Jets&Year=2013

 

I can't imagine how many hours this took to mass together (not to mention publish & keep it looking orderly on a website).

 

I wish we had more Jets fans like Jason.  Hell, I wish there was even one more like him.

 

Perhaps I am, but if so, it's due to his writing style.  He started out with a more objective approach in his first paragraph, but in his second paragraph, that approach changed imo.  You're wrong about what he said.  I suggest that you re-read what he wrote.  Here's a direct quote:

 

The bigger issue is that he is Mangini level secretive and you have already seen the press start to turn on him for that. He basically wouldnt let reporters report during camp. Florham Park is back to being the Fortress of Solitude. 

 

 

He first accuses him of being Mangini level secretive, insinuating that his personality and motivation are like Mangini.  I think that's utter BS.  He then proceeded to say that Idzik wouldn't let reporters report.  That's simply not true.  Then he continued with the comment about Florham Park being a Fortress of Solitude.  He may be a nice guy, and his intent may have been different, but that's not what he wrote or the way he wrote it.  I don't know him, so if he doesn't want to be misunderstood, he needs to make sure that he writes in a way that can't be misinterpreted.  I did no reading between the lines. I responded to what he literally wrote.

 

I also think that HE is the one that is way off base.  There has been zero evidence that Idzik is anything even remotely like Tanny or Mangini.  Idzik wasn't in charge in Seattle, so to try to cast aspersions on Idzik because of what Seattle did with certain players is off base.

 

Idzik doesn't talk to the media because he's trying to be secretive ala Mangini or Parcells.  It's just who he is.  He has to be who he is and go about doing his job the way he sees fit.  If he's not one who feels comfortable doing a lot of interviews because he's shy or doesn't want the spotlight on himself, that is not a negative, and the media should be excoriated for trying to portray that as anything other than but what it is.  If they print a bunch of lies and misrepresentations, then all Jets fans should stop buying and reading those rags those scumbag reporters write for.  Idzik doesn't have to do his job to please the yellow journalistic media.  

[JoeKlecko]

Um, no.

 

Know your roll, Joe.

 

My roll?  LOL  We talking bread here?  If you meant "role", what is that supposed to mean?  My "role" is the same as that of any other poster here...to express my opinions about various NY Jets-related topics.

[jbone]

My roll?  LOL  We talking bread here?  If you meant "role", what is that supposed to mean?  My "role" is the same as that of any other poster here...to express my opinions about various NY Jets-related topics.

Lol, thanks for the lesson in homophones. I realized after the fact but cared so much I didn't even change it. 

 

The grammar police are out, uh oh.

[JoeKlecko]

As far as Idzik, he's kind of in a tough spot media-wise. What's he supposed to do, give interviews and clue them in on his plan? His plan from day one was to gut the team of mega-priced players who weren't performing to the level of their contracts, and ditch Revis because he wasn't signing anything that didn't have a 16 followed by six zeros, and didn't want to lose out on his one opportunity to get something of value out of losing Revis.  

 

He can't plainly say, week after week, interview after interview, "This is a rebuilding year. I'm not actively trying to make the team suck, but I can't wholly prevent it so I'm not going to piss away future years with a real chance so we might win another game or two in a lost-cause season." A team needs a real QB, and when he took over we did not have one.  It remains to be seen if we still don't have one, but he at least made the effort without overvaluing who was available at the position in the draft.  I'll root for them to win every week but in hindsight I'd be pissed off if we used up another $10-15M of cap space - which will be pushed ahead to 2014 - trying to make this season a little better (but still ultimately fail).  How the hell is he supposed to feed that to the media?

 

I don't agree with everything he's done, and admit giving him more benefit of the doubt than he deserves just because he isn't Tannenbaum, but overall I like the job he's doing.  It is hard to assemble a team on the cheap and not have a bunch of those acquisitions flop.  If they didn't have a good chance of flopping, the players wouldn't have been acquired so cheaply.  Also the flops he's made haven't been that costly, and I'd rather see him make cheaper mistakes with guys who are injury-prone - and see the results - than costly ones.  A lot of what I like is what he hasn't done, and wrote a more extensive post about it some weeks ago.

 

This, THIS is why I think that Jason is off base and being unduly critical and unfair of Idzik.

[JoeKlecko]

I feel the opposite. The GM should be a very strong personnel guy, a guy capable of judging talent on his own and not reliant on someone else for such a critical function of the job. The world is littered with accountants, and a guy being considered for any GM position should have a basic idea about the numbers, but talent evaluation is the real skill.

As far as Idzik is concerned, he's going to need to do a lot better next year. This year was easy. He identified problems, and eliminated a lot of them. Any fan paying attention would've made similar moves. Trade Revis, dump Scott, Pace (initially), Greene. Identifying the problem is the easy part, fixing the problems is harder.

He identified Sanchez as a problem. Again, easy. But failed to bring in a veteran capable of replacing him in a weak year for QBs in the draft. Unless he got real lucky with Geno, he's going to have to go back to the QB position in a serious way next year. High draft pick, trade, expensive FA, something.

He identified RB as an issue, and went in pretty heavily on two vets who haven't contributed yet. I liked Goodson better than Ivory, initially, but then -unlike John Idzik- I don't have a former FBI guy vetting these people. So far, those moves aren't paying off, either. It's a position you draft. Going against the grain by acquiring vets, and then having them not work out, puts more of a spotlight on those moves. They have time to work out, though.

The draft was largely put together by a few people he's since let go. It'll remain to be seen whether or not he's improved the front office. Really not thrilled with the pedigree of his personnel expert. But that's why I think the GM should be the personnel expert.

 

I think it was Larz and I who had a similar discussion a few days ago.  Very few GMs (if any) can be great at all aspects of the job.  On one hand, like you, I'd rather see the GM be a very knowledgeable, experienced, skilled personnel man and hire a bean counter to handle the cap.  After a day or two of reflection, I don't think just because someone has a great eye for talent, doesn't mean that he can't be a tough negotiator when it comes to trades and contracts.  He can have a cap guy he trusts that keeps him informed of what they can afford, etc.

 

If that kind of guy isn't available, then as Larz suggested, I think it can work with more of an administrative/cap/financial guy as the GM as long as there is a strong head of the Personnel and Scouting Depts. that has final say over the draft and FA acquisitions.  I don't want a cap guy making those decisions.

 

We'll see next season whether Idzik's experience of being a coach's son, having played and coached football a little and having worked in the personnel area a little is enough to enable him to do the job he needs to do next season.

[jason423]

Perhaps I am, but if so, it's due to his writing style.  He started out with a more objective approach in his first paragraph, but in his second paragraph, that approach changed imo.  You're wrong about what he said.  I suggest that you re-read what he wrote.  Here's a direct quote:

 

 

He first accuses him of being Mangini level secretive, insinuating that his personality and motivation are like Mangini.  I think that's utter BS.  He then proceeded to say that Idzik wouldn't let reporters report.  That's simply not true.  Then he continued with the comment about Florham Park being a Fortress of Solitude.  He may be a nice guy, and his intent may have been different, but that's not what he wrote or the way he wrote it.  I don't know him, so if he doesn't want to be misunderstood, he needs to make sure that he writes in a way that can't be misinterpreted.  I did no reading between the lines. I responded to what he literally wrote.

 

I also think that HE is the one that is way off base.  There has been zero evidence that Idzik is anything even remotely like Tanny or Mangini.  Idzik wasn't in charge in Seattle, so to try to cast aspersions on Idzik because of what Seattle did with certain players is off base.

 

Idzik doesn't talk to the media because he's trying to be secretive ala Mangini or Parcells.  It's just who he is.  He has to be who he is and go about doing his job the way he sees fit.  If he's not one who feels comfortable doing a lot of interviews because he's shy or doesn't want the spotlight on himself, that is not a negative, and the media should be excoriated for trying to portray that as anything other than but what it is.  If they print a bunch of lies and misrepresentations, then all Jets fans should stop buying and reading those rags those scumbag reporters write for.  Idzik doesn't have to do his job to please the yellow journalistic media.  

 

If you tell reporters that you are not going to allow them to mention formations, personnel groupings, etc... until its actually run in a game its not letting people report. These people have a living to make and you are hurting their ability  to do that. In turn they are not going to give you a honeymoon period. This is exactly why things turned from "Idzik is a tough negotiator" to "Idzik gets a failing grade".  The openness of the Jets organization is gone. It goes beyond interviews with him. Its just general access. I don't care one bit but that's a fact. If you dont learn to play ball with the media in NY they rip you apart. Its part of the job. Nothing Mehta printed about Idzik is any different than what would have been printed about Tannenbaum. If you take the honeymoon portion out of it, these are moves that would have gotten the incumbent killed. I dont think  there is anything wrong with most of the moves simply because the team has a longer term plan that has to be more important than a short term prayer, but just because a guy is new doesnt make the moves great while for the last guy the same moves would have been awful. 

 

Working with the media is key for so many to survive. That doesnt mean you make moves to "please them". It just means giving them something to work with. Dont let some person in the stands be a better follow on Twitter than the reporter.  If the Jets had not broken off their relationship with Mike Francesa there is a better chance that Tannenbaum would still be here. He went on a crusade against the Jets for three years and is the one that started the whole circus nonsense. That decision came far above Tannenbaum but in a business where negative publicity is not good it helped signal the end for Mike and is about to signal the end for Rex too. 

 

If you want evidence about him being anything like Tannenbaum just go look over the contracts given to their players. He did those deals. He signed off on those moves. Did he or did he not guarantee Sidney Rice $15 million?  Zach Miller $13 million?  Philosophically the approach to player valuations and contract payout structures is very similar. This wasnt signing someone out of the 49ers or Packers organization who behave in a manner completely different than Tannenbaum did. Those teams approach the cap most differently and take an extremely pessimistic/risk averse view of everyone on their rosters from Patrick Willis and Aaron Rodgers all the way down to number 53 on the roster. Idzik never did in Seattle. 

[jason423]

What do you think about the Ivory trade and Goodson deal?

 

Didnt care much for either but they also didnt cost much so its no big deal. They took a flier on the two of them and they fit into their rebuilding plan where they help field a team in 2013 and can go in 2014. Ivory was the one I liked less because he is never healthy, costs a bit more and we traded for him. I think the organization got wrapped up in his potential if he could stay healthy for 16 games. I think the feeling is that he can be CJ Spiller on the Bills in terms of offensive importance except on a team with a good defense making him a meaningful player. If he can stay healthy I think the team thinks he can keep them very competitive while they develop a QB. I just cant buy into a RB that plays 6 games every season and has no track record of being a primary ball carrier the way the Jets have, but again the financial commitment is pretty low and the Jets cap is all clear next season.  

[jason423]

In fairness, the success or failure of any GM regime depends on that GM finding Russell Wilson, or Andrew Luck, or Eli Manning, or Tom Brady. Otherwise, it's hard to guess that Idzik will be just like Tannenbaum, or John Schneider for that matter. We'll have to wait until next season when he has to go buy the groceries to get a feel for his overall approach.

I gotta wholly disagree with you here. Coughlin and Jerry Reese spit on the beat guys that cover the Giants and those beat guys happily write that it was raining. If Mehta pulled his crap on the Giants beat, Pat Hanlon would bury him in the Meadowlands marsh. It's alright to limit media access as long as you win every so often. What you're seeing from the Jets beat guys is sour grapes. They've been spoiled so long by the open faucet of information that was Rex and Tannenbaum that this culture change is making them work a lot harder, and the stories you're reading are the expressions of that frustration. Idzik doesn't owe Mehta, Cimini, or the fans anything as long as he wins.

 

I disagree about Coughlin. The press tried to run him out of town twice, once after he even won a SB. They hated him. Many still do. He actually sat down with their big writers at one point and asked what he could do to be better and they pretty much told him you have to allow us to do our job. They were right too. You cant be so pissed about your team that you go tell a reporter to screw themselves whenever they try to get access to anyone. At the time they used to go to Tiki and company to get him to rip the guy on or off the record. I think it was after the Panthers loss where he went out of his way to tell everyone that the team was outcoached and to make sure that was printed. 

 

Reese I think was more an example of picking your battles. Knowing the Giants organization they knew he was going to be there for a long time. Picking fights with him was counterproductive so you rip the more public face of the team and put enough pressure to make him go.I think he also won brownie points when he said Eli was "skittish" and needed to improve to keep his job. If Tannenbaum had done the same with Sanchez last year instead of "Mark does good things and we believe in him We all need to improve, including me" he would have had a better chance of being here.  

 

I dont think Idzik owes them access or anything else (though keeping them from reporting on formations is ridiculous) but for his own sake he has to realize that by completely taking it away they are going to write things that criticize him right away. Its bad enough to have one Francesa railing against anything wearing green. To have like 20 of them is just a nightmare. 

[HessStation]

You're a bit off-base here. I didn't read any of this as snide, he didn't say "let reporters report" anywhere in his post, and he certainly doesn't crave any circus from anything I've read by him (including the business-like way he conducts himself as a fan).

When Tannenbaum and Mangini first started out here they were both very tight-lipped about the team. That's the reference to Florham Park being "back" to being the Fortress of Solitude (even though we were at Hofstra back in '06); that's what it was in Tannenbaum's first year as GM. The media was brutal to both Tannenbaum and Mangini and even the players they brought in, where at one point a douchebag like Cannizzaro writing a smear piece on D'Brickashaw for having some fun with the reporters by running from them while laughing in his first camp as a rookie.

Slowly they adapted to the job (well Tannenbaum did) in that they realized if you ignore the media, and they have less info to write about, then they'll fill their columns with hit pieces on the GM and/or HC. Talk about a reversal, the team went from being info Lock down Tannenbaum first year to doing Hard Knocks in just a few seasons.

The "need to adjust" Jason's speaking of is looking at it as self-preservation from Idzik's POV. He'll learn that, particularly when the team is going to do poorly in a rebuilding season like this one, if left to their own devices the media's going to rip the team for doing poorly and the GM who put Nice Rex the Human Media Soundbite in the position to fail and get fired. It's bad PR for Idzik to do a total media shutout. If they win, it won't matter. If they don't, he'll be painted as enemy #1. I read his post and took it exactly in that way.

FYI (since I figure from your post you just didn't realize) Jason is the lousy Jets fan that has compiled the cheat sheets for the Jets salary cap that all of us - including all the team's beat writers - have used for several years. He also writes some articles that break down film and drafts as well from time to time. He's also a hell of a nice guy despite having his work stolen outright by web competitors, or not even having the courtesy of a reference by thousands of fans and dozens (now probably hundreds) of beat reporters.

Here's the old Jets cap site: http://www.nyjetscap.com/

Here's the new one that also has this work done for every team: http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Jets&Year=2013

I can't imagine how many hours this took to mass together (not to mention publish & keep it looking orderly on a website).

I wish we had more Jets fans like Jason. Hell, I wish there was even one more like him.

just wanted to say amen to this. Jason is probably the best poster on any jets forum IMO. I'm not one to just gas up people but it's the truth.

[Integrity28]

Calling him a cap guy in the mold of Tannenbaum is simplistic and unfair, but he's still not a personnel guy, either.

 

He currently sits in 1 of 32 coveted General Manager positions in the NFL, his job is to evaluate and acquire football players within the constraints of a salary cap structure. NOBODY gets this job without having the chops to evaluate talent. 

 

This ongoing debate/discussion, as well as the vast over-simplification of how teams are built and who is responsible when players succeed and fail demonstrates a vast misunderstanding of everything about how the NFL functions. It's kind of unbelievable at this point.

[Integrity28]

So the Jets DID hire a Football Man?

 

 

I do believe I see steel in that glare. Yes! 

 

 

Well done, well done in deed. LOL

[HessStation]

I tend to agree with this due to the pattern developing at the Star Ledger. The first job a football writer gets is the Jets beat, does a good job (Vrentes and Orr did, anyway) and then when their Giants beat writer leaves for bigger/better things, the Jets writer is moved to the Giants beat. It's particularly infuriating because Vrentes and Orr were my favorite Jets writers during their tenures.

completely agree with you here.

[whodeawhodat]

If you tell reporters that you are not going to allow them to mention formations, personnel groupings, etc... until its actually run in a game its not letting people report. These people have a living to make and you are hurting their ability  to do that. In turn they are not going to give you a honeymoon period. This is exactly why things turned from "Idzik is a tough negotiator" to "Idzik gets a failing grade".  The openness of the Jets organization is gone. It goes beyond interviews with him. Its just general access. I don't care one bit but that's a fact. If you dont learn to play ball with the media in NY they rip you apart. Its part of the job. Nothing Mehta printed about Idzik is any different than what would have been printed about Tannenbaum. If you take the honeymoon portion out of it, these are moves that would have gotten the incumbent killed. I dont think  there is anything wrong with most of the moves simply because the team has a longer term plan that has to be more important than a short term prayer, but just because a guy is new doesnt make the moves great while for the last guy the same moves would have been awful. 

 

Working with the media is key for so many to survive. That doesnt mean you make moves to "please them". It just means giving them something to work with. Dont let some person in the stands be a better follow on Twitter than the reporter.  If the Jets had not broken off their relationship with Mike Francesa there is a better chance that Tannenbaum would still be here. He went on a crusade against the Jets for three years and is the one that started the whole circus nonsense. That decision came far above Tannenbaum but in a business where negative publicity is not good it helped signal the end for Mike and is about to signal the end for Rex too. 

 

If you want evidence about him being anything like Tannenbaum just go look over the contracts given to their players. He did those deals. He signed off on those moves. Did he or did he not guarantee Sidney Rice $15 million?  Zach Miller $13 million?  Philosophically the approach to player valuations and contract payout structures is very similar. This wasnt signing someone out of the 49ers or Packers organization who behave in a manner completely different than Tannenbaum did. Those teams approach the cap most differently and take an extremely pessimistic/risk averse view of everyone on their rosters from Patrick Willis and Aaron Rodgers all the way down to number 53 on the roster. Idzik never did in Seattle. 

Hi Jason,

 

I too found it weird that the beat writers were not allowed to take pictures or talk about plays/formations from TC.  I think one writer posted something about fans being allowed to take pictures but reporters were not and that kind of put it in perspective for me.

 

as far as idzik, we cant look at what Seattle did while he was there and say "look at what Idzik did!!!" he was not the GM.  Next year will be a good opportunity for him as he will be far under the cap.  Granted he will have a sh!t ton of holes to fill but he will have some flexibility that he did not have this year. This year was survival mode and mess clean up mode(or at least get a plan in place to clean up the mess that was left for him).  I think he has done a decent job of that.  As you said the RB plan hasnt looked too promising BUT we are in week 2 of the preseason.  Still plenty of time left to actually evaluate everything.

 

I like the hiring of MM as OC as well.  Again, too early to evaluate but it looks promising.  Then again the bar has been set very low from last year's OC.

 

Thanks for posting.

[slats]

He currently sits in 1 of 32 coveted General Manager positions in the NFL, his job is to evaluate and acquire football players within the constraints of a salary cap structure. NOBODY gets this job without having the chops to evaluate talent. 

 

This ongoing debate/discussion, as well as the vast over-simplification of how teams are built and who is responsible when players succeed and fail demonstrates a vast misunderstanding of everything about how the NFL functions. It's kind of unbelievable at this point.

See: Tannenbaum, Mike.

[Integrity28]

See: Tannenbaum, Mike.

 

For as much as I hated the way Mike did business, his first couple years he did well - he did a decent job with talent eval (which includes knowing when to listen to your scouts), and he had an aggressive strategy for bringing in talent. It wasn't until his late years that he over-invested in headline-making moves, instead of roster-building moves. 

 

So, like I said - nobody gets this job without having some chops for player eval. How long they keep the job, now THAT is the better indication of just how well they evaluate talent and perform the other functions of the job at the same time.

 

To have created a polarizing discussion about it, being "personnel guy" or "cap guy" with no recognition of management skills, or any of the other aspects of the job is short-sighted. 

[slats]

For as much as I hated the way Mike did business, his first couple years he did well - he did a decent job with talent eval (which includes knowing when to listen to your scouts), and he had an aggressive strategy for bringing in talent. It wasn't until his late years that he over-invested in headline-making moves, instead of roster-building moves. 

 

So, like I said - nobody gets this job without having some chops for player eval. How long they keep the job, now THAT is the better indication of just how well they evaluate talent and perform the other functions of the job at the same time.

 

To have created a polarizing discussion about it, being "personnel guy" or "cap guy" with no recognition of management skills, or any of the other aspects of the job is short-sighted.

Mike Tannenbaum has player evaluation chops?

Pretty fascinating. This kinda flies directly in the face of the Rex is responsible for the roster because all Tannenbaum did was get him what he asked for argument.

I'm not gonna get into a whole Tannenbaum thing right now, though. Suffice to say that quite a few of the guys who get NFL GM jobs aren't good at it. Just being hired for the position doesn't give anyone any extra qualification. And I think that goes double when talking about being hired by the Jets.

Idzik still has a lot to prove. Cutting expensive under-performers is easy. Replacing them with inexpensive overachievers is a little more difficult.

[Integrity28]

Mike Tannenbaum has player evaluation chops?

Pretty fascinating. This kinda flies directly in the face of the Rex is responsible for the roster because all Tannenbaum did was get him what he asked for argument.

I'm not gonna get into a whole Tannenbaum thing right now, though. Suffice to say that quite a few of the guys who get NFL GM jobs aren't good at it. Just being hired for the position doesn't give anyone any extra qualification. And I think that goes double when talking about being hired by the Jets.

Idzik still has a lot to prove. Cutting expensive under-performers is easy. Replacing them with inexpensive overachievers is a little more difficult.

 

Yeah, using our most recently fired GM flunkee and only referencing the work he did with Rex is a convenient way to juxtapose your point of view from my statement, which speaks more to the NFL at large and the history of the league. 

 

In other words, it's a cheap argument.

 

I never said Idzik didn't have a lot to prove. I also never said Tannenbaum was great or that we should divert to debating his resume.

 

I said that people don't get the job of General Manager without some level of player evaluation qualifications, it just doesn't happen. NO owner goes into the hiring process thinking, "Well last time we had a 'cap guy', so let's try out a 'football guy' this time and see if that works better". That is why I go back to my initial statement, that it's ridiculous that this has digressed into an argument that a GM candidate can only be one of two things. It's simple-minded polarization, that just doesn't consider the realities of the GM position, or just about anything else that happens away from the field for a football team. 

 

If being either an accountant or ex-jock were the only qualifications of being a GM, then we'd all be eligible and it wouldn't be a coveted job.

[slats]

Yeah, using our most recently fired GM flunkee and only referencing the work he did with Rex is a convenient way to juxtapose your point of view from my statement, which speaks more to the NFL at large and the history of the league. 

 

In other words, it's a cheap argument.

 

I never said Idzik didn't have a lot to prove. I also never said Tannenbaum was great or that we should divert to debating his resume.

 

I said that people don't get the job of General Manager without some level of player evaluation qualifications, it just doesn't happen. NO owner goes into the hiring process thinking, "Well last time we had a 'cap guy', so let's try out a 'football guy' this time and see if that works better". That is why I go back to my initial statement, that it's ridiculous that this has digressed into an argument that a GM candidate can only be one of two things. It's simple-minded polarization, that just doesn't consider the realities of the GM position, or just about anything else that happens away from the field for a football team. 

 

If being either an accountant or ex-jock were the only qualifications of being a GM, then we'd all be eligible and it wouldn't be a coveted job.

You're the king of the straw man debates. I don't see a lot of people here taking the view that Idzik is a bean counter, and has nothing on the personnel side of the job - me included. However, I still don't see a lot on the guy's resumé that suggests that he's qualified to be the tie-breaking vote in a debate between highly qualified scouts. And that type of resumé is the kind I'd prefer in my GM. That's all.

We don't know what went into his hire. We don't know sort of criteria Woody Johnson asked for. If he's as concerned about public perception as a lot of people here, then he may've put the buttoned-down, closed-lip executive stylings ahead of player evaluation. Rex needs a boss, I've said that all along, and maybe Woody wanted to go out and get him one.

The picture will come more into focus next year, when his newly put together front office puts together a draft, and he has $50M burning a hole in his pocket.

For now, he's an incomplete. Strong on style, limited in substance.

[Larz]

OMG

 

one of my threads went 4 pages, the cool kids posted in it, and it stayed on topic

 

now I can die in peace !

[Integrity28]

You're the king of the straw man debates. I don't see a lot of people here taking the view that Idzik is a bean counter, and has nothing on the personnel side of the job - me included. However, I still don't see a lot on the guy's resumé that suggests that he's qualified to be the tie-breaking vote in a debate between highly qualified scouts. And that type of resumé is the kind I'd prefer in my GM. That's all.

We don't know what went into his hire. We don't know sort of criteria Woody Johnson asked for. If he's as concerned about public perception as a lot of people here, then he may've put the buttoned-down, closed-lip executive stylings ahead of player evaluation. Rex needs a boss, I've said that all along, and maybe Woody wanted to go out and get him one.

The picture will come more into focus next year, when his newly put together front office puts together a draft, and he has $50M burning a hole in his pocket.

For now, he's an incomplete. Strong on style, limited in substance.

 

 

To the bold -->

 

LOL, and you've become quite adept at exploiting your moderator position to try to antagonizing me into insulting you so you can ban me. It's funny you throw a dig at me, but I wouldn't even call this a debate, because in each response you've made you've tried to divert to something different than what my initial point was. As if you are trolling.

 

To the red -->

 

Nobody is selling the "Idzik is a bean counter"?

 

Yeah, okay.

 

I'd say over 50% of the posters here are bought into it, and 90% of the media is pushing that narrative BECAUSE the fans buy it.

 

You can skirt around my initial point all you want - I don't disagree with the other stuff you are saying, it's really just common sense - "the jury is still out on Idzik" isn't exactly a brain buster. I'm sure you'll pat yourself on the back for that one though. Your other remarks don't have anything really to do with my initial response, and my initial response wasn't exclusively a counterpoint to something you said, it was more that something you said sparked that thought from me.

 

I'll circle back fully and then I'm going to peace out - because honestly, I don't trust your intent to have a normal conversation.

 

My initial statement was NOBODY gets hired as a general manager without some capacity to evaluate talent, not Idzik, not Tanny, nobody. No owner says "let me hire a guy with half the skillset necessary to run my multi-million dollar franchise". Granted the bad GMs sometimes end up NOT having strengths in both areas, but no owner goes into the hire looking ONLY at hiring for one strength. 

 

The polarization is a by-product of the media and fans after the reality of what a GM is good/bad at surfaces.

 

 

[Integrity28]

Nobody buys into the "idzik is a bean counter" angle, but yeah... Larz had to start a thread to disprove it.

 

No, doesn't seem like you are trolling or spinning at all Slats the Moderator. Good show.

[Matt39]

The beat writers not being able to take pics was bc of the wildcat and the personnel involved,no?

Mornihwegs been in the league forever...everyone should know what his offense looks like.

[Larz]

Nobody buys into the "idzik is a bean counter" angle, but yeah... Larz had to start a thread to disprove it.

 

No, doesn't seem like you are trolling or spinning at all Slats the Moderator. Good show.

 

 

gary myers mentioned it in the pre-game show.  I never said posters do it.  Its the media bias and predetermined narrative.

 

it pissed me off.  so I sat down and started typing...lol

[slats]

To the bold -->

 

LOL, and you've become quite adept at exploiting your moderator position to try to antagonizing me into insulting you so you can ban me. It's funny you throw a dig at me, but I wouldn't even call this a debate, because in each response you've made you've tried to divert to something different than what my initial point was. As if you are trolling.

 

To the red -->

 

Nobody is selling the "Idzik is a bean counter"?

 

Yeah, okay.

 

I'd say over 50% of the posters here are bought into it, and 90% of the media is pushing that narrative BECAUSE the fans buy it.

 

You can skirt around my initial point all you want - I don't disagree with the other stuff you are saying, it's really just common sense - "the jury is still out on Idzik" isn't exactly a brain buster. I'm sure you'll pat yourself on the back for that one though. Your other remarks don't have anything really to do with my initial response, and my initial response wasn't exclusively a counterpoint to something you said, it was more that something you said sparked that thought from me.

 

I'll circle back fully and then I'm going to peace out - because honestly, I don't trust your intent to have a normal conversation.

 

My initial statement was NOBODY gets hired as a general manager without some capacity to evaluate talent, not Idzik, not Tanny, nobody. No owner says "let me hire a guy with half the skillset necessary to run my multi-million dollar franchise". Granted the bad GMs sometimes end up NOT having strengths in both areas, but no owner goes into the hire looking ONLY at hiring for one strength. 

 

The polarization is a by-product of the media and fans after the reality of what a GM is good/bad at surfaces.

I don't need an excuse to ban you. I'll ban you as a birthday present to Max, and he'll thank me.

You think the statement that, "NOBODY gets hired as a general manager without some capacity to evaluate talent," offers some kind of insight? Is that really what you're hanging your hat on here? You're gonna criticize my comments incomparison to the brilliance of that line? Lol!

Idzik may have some capacity, but it doesn't appear to be his strong suit. And I'd strongly prefer someone who has talent evaluation at the top of his list of skills, not buried somewhere in the middle.