Fitz got an insanely high QBR of 91.4 against Miami

[FidelioJet]

Did the comparison not make sense to you?

You said Fitz's skillset can't win a SB. I used the two best QBs of our generation to illustrate that QB alone cannot win the SB. You have to have a complete team. 

Patriots won last year because they paid Revis and that other CB to give Brady a complementary defense.

Seattle won the year before because their defense complemented their QB.

I was going to say that maybe the Saints SB with Brees is the only one I could think of recently where the QB carried the team to a SB win, but even then the Saints had one of their better defenses that year.

but if Fitz was the Pats QB last year, do they win a SB? or even come close? I'm not arguing Fitz doesn't need surrounding pieces, just that even with them he's incapable of winning a SB.

[Integrity28]

Fitzpatrick is a bad QB. Below average. Other QBs are even worse and even more below-average than Fitzpatrick. Other things get inferred by anyone who states this and merely leaves it at that.

My criticism of Fitzpatrick - particularly in the game thread which is when I jumped in - was met with the usual childish Geno-lover responses because I had the temerity to not augment such Fitzpatrick criticism with simultaneous and greater criticism of his crappy baby of a backup.

There is such personal hatred of Smith - who (with rare exceptions) has been a disaster since drafting him - has resulted in an off-limits critique of Fitzpatrick unless it has such "but Geno is even worse" augmentations. 

I don't hate Geno. I hate losing. 

We acquired Fitz from a team that only had Hoyer and Mallett as alternatives, for a 7th round pick. I don't think we have to establish that he's a "bad QB".

I saw your posts in the game thread, and you were boorish and killing my buzz... I know what the guy is, I don't need someone telling me every 10 seconds. Not when things are going alright. You weren't the only one. What I see is the Jets plugging in a bad QB and getting good results. I'm a results-driven guy. I don't care if we win ugly, as long as we win. We don't have a top 10 QB. I don't expect Fitz to cash-in on every opportunity like a top 10 QB, therefore I don't need to experience us winning a game, with constant reminders that Fitz isn't a top 10 QB. It's a given. 

People who incessantly point out the givens, in the dynamics of the work I do, are the people that slow down and drag down the project team.

I'm not going to spend every ******* Sunday fretting over the non-interceptions that could have happened but didn't. If/when Fitz starts dumping games, then I'll worry. As of right now, we've been pretty damn good. I think we got out-coached in the first half vs. the Eagles, which is concerning, but I liked how we fought back in the 2nd half. I think with more reps together, situations like that end better for us too. Gotta remember the first quarter of the season is usually sloppy... I'm hopeful that what we've seen of Fitz with this supporting cast is the floor.

[Integrity28]

but if Fitz was the Pats QB last year, do they win a SB? or even come close? I'm not arguing Fitz doesn't need surrounding pieces, just that even with them he's incapable of winning a SB.

Ugh, hypotheticals...

Fine, snap Fitz into the Patriots offense with last year's roster, which relies on getting the ball out quickly... Gronk, Edelman, Vereen, and a very capable running game and OL... plus that defense, in our division. I'm guessing the Pats still would have won the division. 

So put them in the playoffs, with that type of team around him... anything could happen. Yes. 

Your reasoning breaks the minute you say "he is incapable of winning a SB". I can only conclude that you don't understand what I'm saying... forget it.

[sackdance]

But Fitzpatrick was responsible for a greater point-discrepancy just in this last game than a pick-6 would have meant on the scoreboard. 

Quick heads up, there is a class-action suit brewing against you for wasting people's time with nonsense like this.

[Integrity28]

All 3 of Fitz INT's VS Eagles were on 1st, or 2nd down on the Eagles side of the field how is that NOT killing us?

You're right. His mistakes cost us in that game. So did mistakes by the defense and special teams. 

Allow me to re-frame my statement, "he's not routinely killing us". 

The Eagles game stings... we broke down in all 3 phases. I'd like to have that one back.

[FidelioJet]

Ugh, hypotheticals...

Fine, snap Fitz into the Patriots offense with last year's roster, which relies on getting the ball out quickly... Gronk, Edelman, Vereen, and a very capable running game and OL... plus that defense, in our division. I'm guessing the Pats still would have won the division. 

So put them in the playoffs, with that type of team around him... anything could happen. Yes. 

Your reasoning breaks the minute you say "he is incapable of winning a SB". I can only conclude that you don't understand what I'm saying... forget it.

I do get what you're saying...I think what's more appropriate is you don't get what I'm saying.  Yes, maybe me saying incapable is too harsh a term (you never know what can happen) but the likelihood of a QB with Fitz's skill-set winning a SB is very small.  I would prefer to take a more aggressive, yet riskier approach.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to understand my point.

[Lupz27]

You're right. His mistakes cost us in that game. So did mistakes by the defense and special teams. 

Allow me to re-frame my statement, "he's not routinely killing us". 

The Eagles game stings... we broke down in all 3 phases. I'd like to have that one back.

Fair enough, just so were clear I am not pro Geno, as much as I am anti Fitz, I get the other option is probably just as bad, but for me it is just hard to watch Fitz play.  I'm done counter posting, and all that jazz, you are right it is old, and tired.  Until Bowles deems otherwise Fitz takes the snaps, and while I don't enjoy watching Fitz play QB at all, I do enjoy the Jets winnind despite him, and hopefully this roster is so talented it doesn't matter.

 

Go Jets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JetBlue]

except geno has been a starter for us when we have been a .500 team and that was when we had no talent around him as a rookie, Fitz has never helped a team win 8 games.

Funny how that is conveniently ignored. I personally have no idea how Geno would be doing if he never got punched and lost his job but to pretend that it is impossible for him to have gone 3-1 is simply agenda driven.  He had chemistry already with Decker and was building the same with Marshall.  As many have stated, his biggest problem was the tendency to make the BIG mistake, the Pick 6, taking the sack instead of getting rid of the ball.  Things like that.  If he is able to clean that up, there is no reason to believe he couldn't succeed with this offense.  I hope his time on the bench will help improve in those areas.

[whodeawhodat]

Funny how that is conveniently ignored. I personally have no idea how Geno would be doing if he never got punched and lost his job but to pretend that it is impossible for him to have gone 3-1 is simply agenda driven.  He had chemistry already with Decker and was building the same with Marshall.  As many have stated, his biggest problem was the tendency to make the BIG mistake, the Pick 6, taking the sack instead of getting rid of the ball.  Things like that.  If he is able to clean that up, there is no reason to believe he couldn't succeed with this offense.  I hope his time on the bench will help improve in those areas.

please change your profile pic, thanks

MGMT

[nyjunc]

I'm talking about his prime, in Indy. Those defenses sucked. The entire way they built those teams sucked, they put it all on Peyton, and it proves my point... one player, a QB cannot win a SB. Teams do.

You really want to argue this? Maybe we can shift it to "which breakfast cereal is better", to give you a fighting chance.

those Ds were good enough to win with.  they lost b/c the QB didn't play like reg season Peyton. 

1999: allowed 19 pts

2000: allowed 17 in regulation

2002: debacle all around in 41-0 loss to us BUT it is possible to win allowing 41 pts, it is impossible to win scoring ZERO

2003: throws 4 INTs in title game

2004: leads O to 3 pts

2005: receives multiple gifts to hand him game, cannot even get it to OT

2007: 2 RZ INTs in 4 pt loss

2008: chance to run out clock against 8-8 team, takes sack at 1 yd line and sets up game tying FG for SD

2009: trailing by 7 in the 4th and driving for tying TD throws game ending INT for TD

2010: has chance to run out clock, barely gets into FG range and leaves Sanchez almost a minute(and Mark does what Peyton couldn't vs. Pitt 2005)

2012: despite 2 TDs from D/STs he still cannot defeat Baltimore as 3 INts lead to 17 pts for Bal including INT that sets up GW FG

2013: scores 8 garbage time pts in SB(against same D Brady led his O to 14 4th qtr pts in SB a year later)

2014: 13 pts at home

Dilfer was the 6th player taken in the 1st rd of the 1994 draft.. Fitz was a 7th rd pick and at least has 130 tds to 107 picks to Dilfers 113-129..

Dilfer helped multiple teams reach playoffs and a team win a SB, Fitz has never helped a team, win more than 6 but those Tds in garbage time are quite impressive.

Exactly. Dilfer was no Montana, but his name is thrown around a lot as scrub who happened to win a Super Bowl with a great D which would insinuate anyone can do it. 

That's not true. I don't think Dilfer's numbers ever hovered in the bottom 3 like our QB's have the past 4-5 years or so. He was even considered a revitalizing offensive presence with Warrick Dunn in Tampa. Fitz, while I see similar potential, has not had the career Dilfer has. Fitz got paid mid season in Buffalo and sh*t the bed the following week and tanked the season.  lol

But… he does finally has a dominant style RB and WR's that can get open to go along with a potentially great D. Maybe this is the situation Fitz has been masturbating to his whole life. 

Dilfer was a mostly mediocre QB but he is treated like he was Kyle mackey.  Bal won w/ D first but he was vital to that run.

you've made this statement before and again I'll respond there's no measurement by which Sanchez is better than Fitz. Not comp % not int, not fumbles.  How was Sanchez "much better" ?  Number of hot dogs eaten on the bench? 

I don't look at #s w/o context.  I don't care that Fitz can throw more garbage time TDs.  Ryan has a better team around him this year than Mark ever had.  let's see this better QB lead us to at least the title game?

[nyjunc]

 

the only game the Jets lost this year, Brandon Marshall tried a rugby-style pitch and Darren Sproles returned a punt for a TD. And the team was coming off a huge win on Monday Night football, on short rest. I'm comfortable not blaming Fitz for all that mess. 

and yet he had plays to make that he missed and turned it over multiple times.  If he is decent that game we win despite the Marshall screw up and the PR TD.

 

he also single handedly kept Indy and Miami in those 2 wins where we should have been up 3 scores and the games never in doubt.

 

midway through the 4th at Indy we were +4 in TOs and led only 10-7.

[Integrity28]

I do get what you're saying...I think what's more appropriate is you don't get what I'm saying.  Yes, maybe me saying incapable is too harsh a term (you never know what can happen) but the likelihood of a QB with Fitz's skill-set winning a SB is very small.  I would prefer to take a more aggressive, yet riskier approach.

It shouldn't be all that difficult to understand my point.

No. I'm telling you that what you're saying is based on a false premise.

You're stating that a team can or cannot win a SB based solely upon the skill-set of the QB. 

I'm stating that a QB does not win a SB alone. That complementary football wins SBs. I've given you examples that back up my point. That even great QBs don't just win the SB, they need a lot happening around them to do it. Therefore, one cannot infer that Fitz is incapable of winning a SB, given all of the goodness going on around him.

Maybe you don't understand your own point. I dunno. At this point, don't care.

 

[nyjunc]

No. I'm telling you that what you're saying is based on a false premise.

You're stating that a team can or cannot win a SB based solely upon the skill-set of the QB. 

I'm stating that a QB does not win a SB alone. That complementary football wins SBs. I've given you examples that back up my point. That even great QBs don't just win the SB, they need a lot happening around them to do it. Therefore, one cannot infer that Fitz is incapable of winning a SB, given all of the goodness going on around him.

Maybe you don't understand your own point. I dunno. At this point, don't care.

 

anything can happen but the fact that he has never started more than 6 wins in a season probably is a good indication a team isn't winning a SB with him.  It hasn't even been proven you can be in the playoff race with him yet.

[Integrity28]

those Ds were good enough to win with.  they lost b/c the QB didn't play like reg season Peyton. 

1999: allowed 19 pts

2000: allowed 17 in regulation

2002: debacle all around in 41-0 loss to us BUT it is possible to win allowing 41 pts, it is impossible to win scoring ZERO

2003: throws 4 INTs in title game

2004: leads O to 3 pts

2005: receives multiple gifts to hand him game, cannot even get it to OT

2007: 2 RZ INTs in 4 pt loss

2008: chance to run out clock against 8-8 team, takes sack at 1 yd line and sets up game tying FG for SD

2009: trailing by 7 in the 4th and driving for tying TD throws game ending INT for TD

2010: has chance to run out clock, barely gets into FG range and leaves Sanchez almost a minute(and Mark does what Peyton couldn't vs. Pitt 2005)

2012: despite 2 TDs from D/STs he still cannot defeat Baltimore as 3 INts lead to 17 pts for Bal including INT that sets up GW FG

2013: scores 8 garbage time pts in SB(against same D Brady led his O to 14 4th qtr pts in SB a year later)

2014: 13 pts at home

Dilfer helped multiple teams reach playoffs and a team win a SB, Fitz has never helped a team, win more than 6 but those Tds in garbage time are quite impressive.

Dilfer was a mostly mediocre QB but he is treated like he was Kyle mackey.  Bal won w/ D first but he was vital to that run.

I don't look at #s w/o context.  I don't care that Fitz can throw more garbage time TDs.  Ryan has a better team around him this year than Mark ever had.  let's see this better QB lead us to at least the title game?

 

Sorry, how does this disprove that complementary football wins SBs? 

 

[Savage69]

Dilfer went to the Pro bowl with Tampa too if I recall. and I think I do recall actually or I wouldn't have written it. 

Yes he did he had a completion rate of 56% 21 tds and 11 picks which was due to the team making the playoffs.. Hell Kenny made a Pro Bowl in 1991 with 10 tds 11 picks but the Jets made the playoffs with a 8-8 record..LOL Poor Chad had better years made the playoffs and still never got a Pro Bowl berth..

[nyjunc]

 

Sorry, how does this disprove that complementary football wins SBs? 

 

you were telling me how the Ds sucked, just showing you how most of those losses came from poor play from the QB.  switch Brady to Indy and they win 3-4 SBs in the 00s.

[elgoman]

PFF gave Fitzpatrick a lower -5.4 grade in the MIA game than the grade given to Tannehill, which was -3.9. That more accurately captures Fitzpatrick's game than QBR. Fitz's passer rating was only 76 too, which also capture how well he performed as a QB.

[nyjunc]

Yes he did he had a completion rate of 56% 21 tds and 11 picks which was due to the team making the playoffs.. Hell Kenny made a Pro Bowl in 1991 with 10 tds 11 picks but the Jets made the playoffs with a 8-8 record..LOL Chad had better years made the playoffs and still never got a Pro Bowl berth..

to be fair Trent actually made the team when the teams were announced, Kenny was 7th alternate and made it when a ton of guys backed out. 

[Savage69]

to be fair Trent actually made the team when the teams were announced, Kenny was 7th alternate and made it when a ton of guys backed out. 

Must have been the rest of the QB's in the league to make it with 10 tds and 11 picks.. Even a die hard Kenny fan would have trouble defending that.. On second thought maybe not..LOL

[nyjunc]

Must have been the rest of the QB's in the league to make it with 10 tds and 11 picks.. Even a die hard Kenny fan would have trouble defending that.. On second thought maybe not..LOL

the funny thing is I have been involved in multiple Kenny debates and they always bring up that pro bowl as if it meant something but they ignore the zero playoff wins and watching his backup win the only playoff game Kenny was around for.

[Integrity28]

anything can happen but the fact that he has never started more than 6 wins in a season probably is a good indication a team isn't winning a SB with him.  It hasn't even been proven you can be in the playoff race with him yet.

So, my take-away... is that it works to Geno's favor that the Jets surrounded him with garbage players the last 2 years, so his W/L record doesn't matter... but in Fitz's case, being surround by garbage players and having a bad W/L record works against him.

Everyone already knows Fitz is not a GREAT QB.

The rest of everything you people are making up is just that... really, really bad logic and conjecture.

 

[Integrity28]

you were telling me how the Ds sucked, just showing you how most of those losses came from poor play from the QB.  switch Brady to Indy and they win 3-4 SBs in the 00s.

How does this disprove the notion that complementary football wins SBs? 

I'm giving actual examples of QBs and Defenses that needed each other to win it all. You are giving me make believe hypothetical outcomes. 

You've officially become a thread pinata.

[Jet9]

Remember in 94 when Messier had that 35 save performance?

 

Remember those sacks Walter Payton had in the 85 SB?

 

Remember when Jeter was the setup man for Mo in 99?

 

If you don't know what I'm getting at you're an idiot. 

[elgoman]

That's a statement that can not be stated as fact. Anything can happen in a winner take all game like the Super Bowl. Jets have players on both Offense & Defense that could change any game.

Revis! Who's to say he doesn't get a pick 6 in the 4th quarter in a close game? Skrines a baller. Mo, Sheldon, Leo, Coples are all capable of a strip sack fumble recovery. You make it seem like Fitz isn't capable of one really good game? That's BS, he's still a veteran that if given time to throw, a good running game, stout D, they could beat anyone. Now if your saying we get down 0-21 in a Super Bowl, yes, I wouldn't have faith that he could bring us back. But to just flat out exclaim that if Fitz got to a Super Bowl, the Jets would not have a chance is ridiculous! You could have Ivory have the game of his life & punish people like Marshawn Lynch use to, this still is a TEAM GAME in the end. Percentages of wins are higher with a better QB but in One game anything can happen.

Fitz has yet to win against a team with an above average defense and average/good QB'ing. The closest team we have fought with this metric is Philly, and they beat us. The rest of the teams we faced: IND, MIA and CLE, all had bad QBs, bad defense or both (McCown was injured). There are stronger teams with stronger defenses and/or QBs that put up better performances than Bradford (who already beat us while playing like crap), and all of them will be vying for the Superbowl. Therefore we can't win.

 

That's why it's a waste of time playing Fitz. We should play Geno and if he fails this year, draft another QB.

[GREENBEAN]

Yes he did he had a completion rate of 56% 21 tds and 11 picks which was due to the team making the playoffs.. Hell Kenny made a Pro Bowl in 1991 with 10 tds 11 picks but the Jets made the playoffs with a 8-8 record..LOL Poor Chad had better years made the playoffs and still never got a Pro Bowl berth..

And poor Fitz, with all of that happening around the league over the years never even got a sniff.  

[Savage69]

How does this disprove the notion that complementary football wins SBs? 

I'm giving actual examples of QBs and Defenses that needed each other to win it all. You are giving me make believe hypothetical outcomes. 

You've officially become a thread pinata.

Football is and always was a team game... Going with the exception in this case Dilfer in 2000 doesn't change that.. Like I said as great as Brady was in the Bowl last year without the D they would have lost..

[nyjunc]

So, my take-away... is that it works to Geno's favor that the Jets surrounded him with garbage players the last 2 years, so his W/L record doesn't matter... but in Fitz's case, being surround by garbage players and having a bad W/L record works against him.

Everyone already knows Fitz is not a GREAT QB.

The rest of everything you people are making up is just that... really, really bad logic and conjecture.

 

and yet w/ those garbage players he won more games in a single season than fitz ever has.

How does this disprove the notion that complementary football wins SBs? 

I'm giving actual examples of QBs and Defenses that needed each other to win it all. You are giving me make believe hypothetical outcomes. 

You've officially become a thread pinata.

we were discussing Peyton and his D's.  His D's were more than good enough to go on deep runs but instead they were one and done most years thanks to the QB

Remember in 94 when Messier had that 35 save performance?

 

Remember those sacks Walter Payton had in the 85 SB?

 

Remember when Jeter was the setup man for Mo in 99?

 

If you don't know what I'm getting at you're an idiot. 

what does this have to do w/ Fitz struggling? we get it, sports are team games but that doesn't absolve Fitz from playing poorly.

[nyjunc]

Football is and always was a team game... Going with the exception in this case Dilfer in 2000 doesn't change that.. Like I said as great as Brady was in the Bowl last year without the D they would have lost..

of course one player can't win a game by himself but one player can be the difference.  In NE and Ind/Den the one player that has been the difference has been at QB.  Brady in NE and they are a dynasty, manning and Ind/den and they barely win one.

[Jet9]

and yet w/ those garbage players he won more games in a single season than fitz ever has.

we were discussing Peyton and his D's.  His D's were more than good enough to go on deep runs but instead they were one and done most years thanks to the QB

what does this have to do w/ Fitz struggling? we get it, sports are team games but that doesn't absolve Fitz from playing poorly.

Fitz is playing like Fitz. 7 td, 6 Ints, 3 of those innone game. 60% comp. The guys behind him are worse. I'm sorry that you can't see that. If the Jets go 9-7 this is a successful season. Right now we're 3-1. STFU and enjoy it. Jesus. 

[JetBlue]

please change your profile pic, thanks

MGMT

What is wrong with my profile pic? 

[nyjunc]

Fitz is playing like Fitz. 7 td, 6 Ints, 3 of those innone game. 60% comp. The guys behind him are worse. I'm sorry that you can't see that. If the Jets go 9-7 this is a successful season. Right now we're 3-1. STFU and enjoy it. Jesus. 

9-7 may not be a success unless there is a deep playoff run.  Fitz historically gets worse later in seasons which I assume is b/c his weak arm gets worse w/ more throws and colder weather.  I am enjoying 3-1 but I want more.  I don't want to bench him, I want him to play better.

[UntouchableCrew]

The idea that you can kill Fitz for "playing poorly" while the team wins while praising Sanchez as "part of the reason we went to back to back AFCCGs" is ridiculous.

[JetBlue]

Fitz is playing like Fitz. 7 td, 6 Ints, 3 of those innone game. 60% comp. The guys behind him are worse. I'm sorry that you can't see that. If the Jets go 9-7 this is a successful season. Right now we're 3-1. STFU and enjoy it. Jesus. 

How do you know the guy behind him is worse?  Wasn't he the starter going into camp?  I think most fans are happy with 3-1, and since this is a forum where we get to express our opinions, why don't you GFY and allow others to discuss what we choose?  See how rude that was? Like telling other folks to STFU.  

[UntouchableCrew]

of course one player can't win a game by himself but one player can be the difference.  In NE and Ind/Den the one player that has been the difference has been at QB.  Brady in NE and they are a dynasty, manning and Ind/den and they barely win one.

Except that without Brady the Pats went 11-5 and without Manning the Colts went 2-14... Maybe that's why Brady has won more rings? You're continuing to ignore the team concept...

[nyjunc]

Except that without Brady the Pats went 11-5 and without Manning the Colts went 2-14... Maybe that's why Brady has won more rings? You're continuing to ignore the team concept...

except that NE was 16-0 the year before and then went 11-5- a HUGE difference against a softer sched.  when Manning was hurt Indy TANKED for the #1 pick. a year later w/ less talent around the QB they won double digit games and were back in the playoffs.

Brady has more b/c he doesn't melt under big game pressure on a consistent basis.