Trade down?

[nyjunc]

36 minutes ago, detectivekimble said:

The Jets got fleeced.

They gave up No. 26 (700 points) and a 7th rounder for

No. 47 (430 points)

No. 182 (18.6 points)

No. 185 (17.4 points)

Doug Jolley (scrub TE who put up 300 yards the year before)

That is a fleece job if I've ever seen one.

 

ok, you would have been happier w/:

 

1. Justin Miller

2. Mike Nugent

no Jolley and no Kerry Rhodes.

 

Maybe you should be our next GM?

 

please don't forget Jplley was considered an ascending pass catching TE and our TE the year before had 100 rec yds while starting all 16 games but yeah we got fleeced.

[nyjunc]

28 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

like your qb evaluation skills......your trade evaluation skills suck as well. the trade sucked

please stop, you are clueless

27 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

you won't convince him.....he still thinks mark sanchez is a great qb

it's so funny when people don't read and just make stuff up.

[slats]

18 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

ok, you would have been happier w/:

 

1. Justin Miller

2. Mike Nugent

no Jolley and no Kerry Rhodes.

 

Maybe you should be our next GM?

 

please don't forget Jplley was considered an ascending pass catching TE and our TE the year before had 100 rec yds while starting all 16 games but yeah we got fleeced.

Jolley was the target of that trade, Bradway loved him. He played one mediocre season with the Jets, and he was out of football after the following year (in which he caught one pass for Tampa). The biggest problem with the trade is that they actually believed that Jolley was an ascending player. It would've been difficult for him to descend any faster. Then they took a kicker with the pick they got from the Raiders. There's a direct correlation between that trade and draft, and Bradway's demotion. It was terrible. Both at the time, and in retrospect. 

Seriously, I would think the biggest homer in the world would have a tough time referring to that debacle as "not bad." Calling it excellent and fantastic actually blows my mind. Why? Because Kerry Rhodes? Holy crap. 

[neckdemon]

26 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

please stop, you are clueless

it's so funny when people don't read and just make stuff up.

you're right we traded down into the 2nd round and got doug jolley in return. trade was great!!! you are the clueless one buddy. 

[Snell41]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

 

 Again guys, the trade itself was a good one.  we weren't taking Heath or Rodgers, if we were amnd thought we could get them by moving down then it wouldn't have been a good trade.  The jets wanted Justin Miller and Mike Nugent, they got both guys after moving down.  AGAIN, criticize the scouting to want those players but the trade itself was an excellent one.

 

 

I guess under this premise all trades are great moves because they got the player they wanted.  In fact, don't judge drafts by the players at all, judge the teams for picking the guys they wanted and they all get A's!!  Woohoo!

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

Jolley was the target of that trade, Bradway loved him. He played one mediocre season with the Jets, and he was out of football after the following year (in which he caught one pass for Tampa). The biggest problem with the trade is that they actually believed that Jolley was an ascending player. It would've been difficult for him to descend any faster. Then they took a kicker with the pick they got from the Raiders. There's a direct correlation between that trade and draft, and Bradway's demotion. It was terrible. Both at the time, and in retrospect. 

Seriously, I would think the biggest homer in the world would have a tough time referring to that debacle as "not bad." Calling it excellent and fantastic actually blows my mind. Why? Because Kerry Rhodes? Holy crap. 

Jolley and thinking they could trade back and get the guys they wanted.  again, criticize his evaluation of the drafted players and Jolley but nothing wrong w/ the trade itself.

 

people have to remember how much they hated Becht and how we got nothing in the pass game from the TE.  

 

why? b/c we acquired more picks, acquired a starting TE, got the 2 guys we were targeting in rds 1 and 2 anyway and eventually got Rhodes.  That's why.  if the trade cost us a guy we wanted who turned out to be good I'd say the opposite but it didn't.

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

I guess under this premise all trades are great moves because they got the player they wanted.  In fact, don't judge drafts by the players at all, judge the teams for picking the guys they wanted and they all get A's!!  Woohoo!

you can't differentiate btw a trade and drafting.  I can't help you.

[PCP63]

I'm of the opinion that trading down is always a solid option. More picks means more opportunities to hit, or, even better, gather assets to acquire already proven talent.

I'd take a proven vet any day of the week. Rookies are NEVER a sure thing.

[nyjunc]

7 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

you're right we traded down into the 2nd round and got doug jolley in return. trade was great!!! you are the clueless one buddy. 

you should have someone read my posts for you, someone w/ the ability to absorb and explain the actual information.

[Snell41]

Just now, nyjunc said:

you can't differentiate btw a trade and drafting.  I can't help you.

No sir, you can't help yourself from trolling with this nonsense.  If you're going to quantify Doug Jolley in the return, you quantify the whole. 

[PCP63]

I agree with nyjunc. Good trade, bad scouting.

[Snell41]

42 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

ok, you would have been happier w/:

 

1. Justin Miller

2. Mike Nugent

no Jolley and no Kerry Rhodes.

 

Maybe you should be our next GM?

 

please don't forget Jplley was considered an ascending pass catching TE and our TE the year before had 100 rec yds while starting all 16 games but yeah we got fleeced.

You're going with the absolute ridiculous assumption they would have taken Miller first at all costs.  Under your premise J Miller was their #1 target on the board regardless of draft position, or the assumption that any player rated higher than Miller would absolutely never have fallen to them.  It's as ridiculous as saying "would we rather have seen them trade up in the draft and lose picks and select only Justin Miler at the cost of not getting Nugent and Rhodes". 

[jack48]

6 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I can't remember the last time the jets traded down in the 1st round (Parcells the year we drafted Farrior?). Maybe this would be a good year to do it considering some team might want Pax Lynch and we need to recoup picks.  

I think there is a chance we trade down from 20 and also get some extra picks for Wilk.  Maybe we wind up with 9 picks

[nyjunc]

13 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

You're going with the absolute ridiculous assumption they would have taken Miller first at all costs.  Under your premise J Miller was their #1 target on the board regardless of draft position, or the assumption that any player rated higher than Miller would absolutely never have fallen to them.  It's as ridiculous as saying "would we rather have seen them trade up in the draft and lose picks and select only Justin Miler at the cost of not getting Nugent and Rhodes". 

that is all we heard leading up to the draft and in those days we weren't good at smokescreens.

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

ok, you would have been happier w/:

 

1. Justin Miller

2. Mike Nugent

no Jolley and no Kerry Rhodes.

 

Maybe you should be our next GM?

 

please don't forget Jplley was considered an ascending pass catching TE and our TE the year before had 100 rec yds while starting all 16 games but yeah we got fleeced.

So he's to be congratulated for getting three pieces of crap for the price of two?

Personally I find the idea that we would take those two players, and only those two players - regardless of our draft spot - abhorrent. No wonder we struggled for so long with that moronic approach to drafting.

[Snell41]

You don't trade down when you have a late first round pick until draft day when your pick is on the board and you see the players available to you ever unless you are getting an exhorbitant return.  Ever.  You never know what guys may slip.  You rarely ever see predraft trades for anything other than top spots with teams paying a king's ransom to get a guy they know they will get, ala the Rams and Eagles this year.  Why?  Because you can't quantify the trade value at the time.  You never know who will fall, in the case of the Jets Aaron Rodgers and Heath Miller would have been available to them.  That's what makes it a bad trade.  In value the Jets got far less point value for picks given up vs picks received, and they did it simply for a 300 yard TE.  That's horrible. 

 

It's exactly why we haven't traded our pick right now up to this point now, and why we haven't traded Mo yet.  When you're later in the draft you wait and see what happens.  For example if Lynch is our target, unless we trade up to the 3 spot to take him it's senseless to make any kind of trade prior to draft day.  If they feel he's worth the 10-15 range you wait and make sure he's there in that range before you make a move.  Conversely if you feel trading down brings value to the team by amassing more picks in the 2nd or later rounds, you wait until you see what's available to you in the spot your in to be sure a player that you value higher than the cumulative amount of players you may get trading down isn't available.  For example, a guy like Warren Sapp was rated to be a top 5 pick.  Tampa Bay obviously never thought in a million years Warren Sapp would have fallen to them.  Had they made some apples to apples trade getting only equal value on the trade chart 5 days before the draft, they would have never had the opportunity they did. 

When a team is smart, they wait to see if other teams make stupid mistakes and pass on great players before determining if they are going to trade down later in the round.  That, and that alone made that trade a ridiculously stupid trade. 

[Pcola]

6 hours ago, Beerfish said:

If Lynch is there you take him, if not possible trade down.  

This!  Why we are so intent on solving every other teams QB problems when we have only Geno and Petty currently, is just asinine.  

[legler82]

26 minutes ago, PCP63 said:

I agree with nyjunc. Good trade, bad scouting.

I dunno; Jolley was gabbage.

[section314]

How does this logic grab everybody? We could have stayed put at #26 and taken Heath Miller.That trade was one of the dumbest things the Jets have ever done, and that's saying a lot. Heath was one of the best TE's over the last 15 years, and he would have fallen into our lap. Nobody in their right mind can justify that trade. End of discussion.

[nyjunc]

5 minutes ago, jamesr said:

So he's to be congratulated for getting three pieces of crap for the price of two?

Personally I find the idea that we would take those two players, and only those two players - regardless of our draft spot - abhorrent. No wonder we struggled for so long with that moronic approach to drafting.

where did I say he is to be congratulated for that? please read my post.

 

just for clarification though Bradway worked for us from 2001-2014, it was the most successful stretch in team history.

[Snell41]

1 minute ago, section314 said:

How does this logic grab everybody? We could have stayed put at #26 and taken Heath Miller.That trade was one of the dumbest things the Jets have ever done, and that's saying a lot. Heath was one of the best TE's over the last 15 years, and he would have fallen into our lap. Nobody in their right mind can justify that trade. End of discussion.

Aaron Rodgers?  Roddy White?  Logan Mankins?  NYJUNC's entire premise is Justin Miller and Mike Nugent were both ranked higher on the Jets board. 

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

where did I say he is to be congratulated for that? please read my post.

 

just for clarification though Bradway worked for us from 2001-2014, it was the most successful stretch in team history.

You're saying it was a great trade. People usually get congratulated for great trades.

[section314]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

Aaron Rodgers?  Roddy White?  Logan Mankins?  NYJUNC's entire premise is Justin Miller and Mike Nugent were both ranked higher on the Jets board. 

The sad thing is, with Bradway in charge, they probably were.

[Snell41]

1 minute ago, jamesr said:

You're saying it was a great trade. People usually get congratulated for great trades.

You're missing NYJUNC's point.  He's saying Justin Miller and Nugent were the Jets targets irrelevant of who was available to them in their position, so great trade.  If DeMarcus Ware or Shawn Merriman fell to the Jets originally had they not made the trade, Justin Miller was the pick.  Therefore great trade to move down and take Miller while getting Jolley in return, amirite!

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

Aaron Rodgers?  Roddy White?  Logan Mankins?  NYJUNC's entire premise is Justin Miller and Mike Nugent were both ranked higher on the Jets board. 

leading into that draft that is all we heard, remember we just signed Chad to that big contract so QB was probably out.  it's easy to look back and say those names though.

3 minutes ago, jamesr said:

You're saying it was a great trade. People usually get congratulated for great trades.

the execution of the trade yes, the results no.  it's a results business.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

You're missing NYJUNC's point.  He's saying Justin Miller and Nugent were the Jets targets irrelevant of who was available to them in their position, so great trade.  If DeMarcus Ware or Shawn Merriman fell to the Jets originally had they not made the trade, Justin Miller was the pick.  Therefore great trade to move down and take Miller while getting Jolley in return, amirite!

did they fall to the Jets?  

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Snell41 said:

You're missing NYJUNC's point.  He's saying Justin Miller and Nugent were the Jets targets irrelevant of who was available to them in their position, so great trade.  If DeMarcus Ware or Shawn Merriman fell to the Jets originally had they not made the trade, Justin Miller was the pick.  Therefore great trade to move down and take Miller while getting Jolley in return, amirite!

the trade parameters were good, but the jets picked the wrong players.  it's not like you're trading wilk for aj green.

[Snell41]

Just now, nyjunc said:

leading into that draft that is all we heard, remember we just signed Chad to that big contract so QB was probably out.  it's easy to look back and say those names though.

the execution of the trade yes, the results no.  it's a results business.

And what if DeMarcus Ware or Merriman fell?  Derrick Johnson?  Marcus Spears?  Braylon Edwards?  Antrelle Rolle?  Cedric Benson?  Jammal Brown?  Guys fall all the time.  There is zero reason to trade down pre draft day from position 23 unless you are getting a king's ransom in return, which the Jets absolutely did not get.  Guys fall all the time.  So your premise that it was a great trade is completely built on the fact they were taking Miller no matter what, which is wrong in and of itself because they drafted Nugent first, and the fact they received "fair" value in return based on the draft chart which is debatable at best.  The only way trading down a late round pick is worthwhile ever PREDRAFT is when you are getting exhorbitant returns.  It never, ever makes sense otherwise, and for that alone it was a horrible, horrible trade. 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

And what if DeMarcus Ware or Merriman fell?  Derrick Johnson?  Marcus Spears?  Braylon Edwards?  Antrelle Rolle?  Cedric Benson?  Jammal Brown?  Guys fall all the time.  There is zero reason to trade down pre draft day from position 23 unless you are getting a king's ransom in return, which the Jets absolutely did not get.  Guys fall all the time.  So your premise that it was a great trade is completely built on the fact they were taking Miller no matter what, which is wrong in and of itself because they drafted Nugent first, and the fact they received "fair" value in return based on the draft chart which is debatable at best.  The only way trading down a late round pick is worthwhile ever PREDRAFT is when you are getting exhorbitant returns.  It never, ever makes sense otherwise, and for that alone it was a horrible, horrible trade. 

what if? it didn't happen.  we can play the what if game all day.

[neckdemon]

51 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

you should have someone read my posts for you, someone w/ the ability to absorb and explain the actual information.

You should have someone explain the meaning of good and bad to you. Maybe you have a 3rd grade son/daughter you could ask to explain to you in easier to understand terms. 

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

You should have someone explain the meaning of good and bad to you. Maybe you have a 3rd grade son/daughter you could ask to explain to you in easier to understand terms. 

You are boring me w/ this nonsense.

[Snell41]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

what if? it didn't happen.  we can play the what if game all day.

And the point goes right over your head.  Every single year, guys fall in the draft.  Every year.  No team's draft board falls off in the perfect order that they have it marked.  With the exception of maybe the top 5 players, just about every team will find a player they had ranked HIGHER than the pick they draft in will likely be there.  For that reason alone, you do not trade down from your spot until your pick is on the board.  What players did or did not fall that year is irrelevant to the conversation.  At best the Jets got equal value in points for trading down prior to draft day.  That and that alone makes it a horrible trade.  You always wait to see what players are available to you before you give up your pick and trade back unless you are getting far greater value in return.  Always. 

[jamesr]

8 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

And what if DeMarcus Ware or Merriman fell?  Derrick Johnson?  Marcus Spears?  Braylon Edwards?  Antrelle Rolle?  Cedric Benson?  Jammal Brown?  Guys fall all the time.  There is zero reason to trade down pre draft day from position 23 unless you are getting a king's ransom in return, which the Jets absolutely did not get.  Guys fall all the time.  So your premise that it was a great trade is completely built on the fact they were taking Miller no matter what, which is wrong in and of itself because they drafted Nugent first, and the fact they received "fair" value in return based on the draft chart which is debatable at best.  The only way trading down a late round pick is worthwhile ever PREDRAFT is when you are getting exhorbitant returns.  It never, ever makes sense otherwise, and for that alone it was a horrible, horrible trade. 

Or ... what if the gem that was Justin Miller got drafted before your first round pick even came around? Then you'd have traded down IN ADVANCE for a guy you couldn't have got anyway.

Besides the whole "he's the guy we wanted all along" is the easiest line to spin in any draft. No-one can prove you wrong.

And if you go into a draft targeting two low second rounders and ignoring the first round altogether, you don't belong in a front office.

Either that, or you're the New England Patriots, 2016.  

[neckdemon]

1 minute ago, Snell41 said:

And the point goes right over your head.  Every single year, guys fall in the draft.  Every year.  No team's draft board falls off in the perfect order that they have it marked.  With the exception of maybe the top 5 players, just about every team will find a player they had ranked HIGHER than the pick they draft in will likely be there.  For that reason alone, you do not trade down from your spot until your pick is on the board.  What players did or did not fall that year is irrelevant to the conversation.  At best the Jets got equal value in points for trading down prior to draft day.  That and that alone makes it a horrible trade.  You always wait to see what players are available to you before you give up your pick and trade back unless you are getting far greater value in return.  Always. 

It was a desperation move because they didn't get Jeb putzier. Just shows how horrible the front office was. 

[Mainejet]

For all the talk about the 1st round and players, QB's they should take, trading down could be their best approach. This team has a lot of holes and there's no way they can fill them all with only 6 picks. But if they traded down? They could bank a lot more picks and clean up with good value throughout the 2nd and 3rd rounds.