Real problems vs. reactionary narratives

[Matt39]

Just now, detectivekimble said:

If Fitzpatrick keeps playing like he does, he won't be back next year.  At that point, Bowles better hope that Petty or Hackenberg can play, because if not, he's ****ed.

It's basically Maccagnan's last hope. There are sunk costs all over the defense that wont be getting better any time soon considering he's been giving away draft picks like they're candy.

[SAR I]

57 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

The only way we can possibly compete with our extremely limited QB? Be one of the best D's in NFL history. Simple.

You make it sound humorous, but anyone thinking the Jets had a shot at 10+ wins this year must have thought exactly that.  It's not like 34 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick was going to get sprinkled with fairy dust and magically turn into Joe Montana.  If you thought the Jets could be better than last year, especially with this schedule, then you thought the Jets D was going to be Denver-good, there is no amount of logic to say otherwise.

So in that context, a bad game here or a few interceptions there isn't the reason the Jets are going to be 7-9.  It's because of our defense.  And that's where you should focus your energy, that's where we should focus the conversation, it is not about the quarterback, never has been.

SAR I

 

[detectivekimble]

Just now, Matt39 said:

It's basically Maccagnan's last hope. There are sunk costs all over the defense that wont be getting better any time soon considering he's been giving away draft picks like they're candy.

Maccagnan didn't hire Bowles, so I don't think they'd get sh*tcanned together.  I'd say Bowles will get it and Maccagnan will get his chance to hire a new coach.  Any idiot with eyes can see that Bowles is a bad coach, so I doubt that Maccagnan doesn't see it.

[Matt39]

Just now, detectivekimble said:

Maccagnan didn't hire Bowles, so I don't think they'd get sh*tcanned together.  I'd say Bowles will get it and Maccagnan will get his chance to hire a new coach.  Any idiot with eyes can see that Bowles is a bad coach, so I doubt that Maccagnan doesn't see it.

At some point maybe Woody will realize building through FA and trading away picks only looks good when it coincides with an easy schedule. The Jets are right where they left off with Tannenbaum. Old, expensive and most importantly no QB.

[SAR I]

47 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

We ALL understand the role of back QB'ing in this horrible start. Nobody is excusing Fitz, what some of us are doing is putting his INTs into context and trying to have an "okay, the QB sucks, but what else is really going on here" conversation. 

The defense, given that it has been the single emphasis of the past 4 regimes, has absorbed an overwhelming majority of resource allocation, is absolutely, without question a huge part of the problem here.

Pitiful.

Boom.  And that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about, a safe-haven from the "blame it all on Fitzpatrick!" and "Geno!" narratives.

SAR I

[Kevin L]

39 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

The turnovers aren't irrelevant. The combination of awful defense and awful QB play is why we're a bottom 10 team in the league, whether the stupid power rankings say so or not. Don't care. We're ******* horrible.

The point you're overlooking is that when a team invests all of these first rounders and big FA contracts into the defense, hires a defensive coach, and basically goes all-in on defense... then it should be one of the best D's in the NFL. Maybe not in history, but in the league this year? Yes. Without ******* question. 

We ALL understand the role of back QB'ing in this horrible start. Nobody is excusing Fitz, what some of us are doing is putting his INTs into context and trying to have an "okay, the QB sucks, but what else is really going on here" conversation. 

The defense, given that it has been the single emphasis of the past 4 regimes, has absorbed an overwhelming majority of resource allocation, is absolutely, without question a huge part of the problem here. 

We have 1 first-rounder on offense that we drafted. Nick Mangold. That is pitiful, when you consider that we have 3 first rounders that we drafted in one position group on the DL.

Pitiful.

I'm not disagreeing with the narrative that the defense sucks. I'm disagreeing with the narrative that our D is the biggest reason for the losses. 

We are being told to ignore the KC game where Fitz sh*t the bed. We are being told to ignore the turnovers in the SEA game (which led to 10 points, in a 10 point loss.) Sure, maybe not all of them are Fitz's fault. But it's not just the turnovers, it's the throws that should be TD's but aren't, it's the missed plays where a guy is wide open but Fitz is locked onto his first read.

Contextualize it any way you want to, Fitz is the biggest reason we suck.

[Kevin L]

9 minutes ago, SAR I said:

You make it sound humorous, but anyone thinking the Jets had a shot at 10+ wins this year must have thought exactly that.  It's not like 34 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick was going to get sprinkled with fairy dust and magically turn into Joe Montana.  If you thought the Jets could be better than last year, especially with this schedule, then you thought the Jets D was going to be Denver-good, there is no amount of logic to say otherwise.

So in that context, a bad game here or a few interceptions there isn't the reason the Jets are going to be 7-9.  It's because of our defense.  And that's where you should focus your energy, that's where we should focus the conversation, it is not about the quarterback, never has been.

SAR I

 

It's almost like this is an offense driven league. A league where teams regularly score 24+ points a game. A league where the QB is the most important position.

Totally not about the QB, though.

[Matt39]

10 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

I'm not disagreeing with the narrative that the defense sucks. I'm disagreeing with the narrative that our D is the biggest reason for the losses. 

We are being told to ignore the KC game where Fitz sh*t the bed. We are being told to ignore the turnovers in the SEA game (which led to 10 points, in a 10 point loss.) Sure, maybe not all of them are Fitz's fault. But it's not just the turnovers, it's the throws that should be TD's but aren't, it's the missed plays where a guy is wide open but Fitz is locked onto his first read.

Contextualize it any way you want to, Fitz is the biggest reason we suck.

Considering we're carrying statistically the worst pass defense in the league through 4 games, how much of a jump in QB play would we need for things to shake out differently? (and yes Fitz has been a total trainwreck)

[Pac]

I saw the Reactionary Narratives at Ozzfest back in 06'.

They were similar to this thread in that they sucked.

[Kevin L]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Considering we're carrying statistically the worst pass defense in the league through 4 games, how much of a jump in QB play would we need for things to shake out differently? (and yes Fitz has been a total trainwreck)

It would be nice to not have the worst starter in the league, for one. That would probably help us not be one of the worst scoring teams in the league.

[Matt39]

Just now, Kevin L said:

It would be nice to not have the worst starter in the league, for one. That would probably help us not be one of the worst scoring teams in the league.

Sure, but how much improvement would we need from the QB to offset the worst secondary in football? Point being, the Jets are probably screwed no matter if Fitz, Geno, Petty or whatever other crappy QB we put out there.

Fitz has a track record of being serviceable. I'm honestly more confident in him improving that I am with the defense that just looks washed up.

[August]

Quit scapegoating the defense to absolve Ryan Fitzpatrick. We can discuss the issues of the defense which is a separate issue within itself, but bashing the defense to absolve Fitzpatrick is weak. 

[August]

Just now, Matt39 said:

Sure, but how much improvement would we need from the QB to offset the worst secondary in football? Point being, the Jets are probably screwed no matter if Fitz, Geno, Petty or whatever other crappy QB we put out there.

Fitz has a track record of being serviceable. I'm honestly more confident in him improving that I am with the defense that just looks washed up.

10 interceptions in 4 games and you think the defense is the biggest problem? That's laughable. Holding the Chiefs to 10 points and holding the Seahawks to 17 points before a bad int is "bad". 

[SAR I]

7 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

It's almost like this is an offense driven league. A league where teams regularly score 24+ points a game. A league where the QB is the most important position.

Totally not about the QB, though.

If you thought Ryan Fitzpatrick was capable of putting up Aaron Rodgers numbers this year that's more delusional than thinking Geno Smith has the potential to be an NFL superstar.

LOLZ

SAR I

 

[Matt39]

Just now, August said:

10 interceptions in 4 games and you think the defense is the biggest problem? That's laughable. Holding the Chiefs to 10 points and holding the Seahawks to 17 points before a bad int is "bad". 

"Biggest problem" is meaningless when the entire team has been awful. 

[August]

1 minute ago, SAR I said:

If you thought Ryan Fitzpatrick was capable of putting up Aaron Rodgers numbers this year that's more delusional than thinking Geno Smith has the potential to be an NFL superstar.

LOLZ

SAR I

 

Well he held out for more money all offseason because he thought he should be paid like Aaron Rodgers so...

[Kevin L]

3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Sure, but how much improvement would we need from the QB to offset the worst secondary in football? Point being, the Jets are probably screwed no matter if Fitz, Geno, Petty or whatever other crappy QB we put out there.

Fitz has a track record of being serviceable. I'm honestly more confident in him improving that I am with the defense that just looks washed up.

IDK, maybe if Fitz could make the leap to Ryan Tannehill's lofty stature, we'd have a winning record.

We don't have the worst D in the league.

We do have the worst starting QB.

[Matt39]

1 minute ago, Kevin L said:

IDK, maybe if Fitz could make the leap to Ryan Tannehill's lofty stature, we'd have a winning record.

We don't have the worst D in the league.

We do have the worst starting QB.

We have the 28th ranked defense in football. Hey, at least we're not Detroit.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

[SAR I]

11 minutes ago, August said:

Quit scapegoating the defense to absolve Ryan Fitzpatrick. We can discuss the issues of the defense which is a separate issue within itself, but bashing the defense to absolve Fitzpatrick is weak. 

Really?

How many interceptions has Ryan Fitzpatrick thrown trying to catch up from mediocre DLine play and pathetic secondary execution?  When the defense can't stop a cold the offense has to compensate. 

Just look at Sunday.  Seattle, with a one-legged quarterback and one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, marches up and down the field, and gets 2 touchdowns in the second quarter, takes an 11 point lead.  After that, the offense has to press, playcalling goes away from the run, and all of a sudden we have Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing the ball all over the place to generate some offense and that's when the interceptions occur.

Same for Kansas City, by the way.  The Jets were down 17-3 before Fitzpatrick pressed and the interceptions occurred.

Scapegoating the defense?  This is a joke, right?

SAR I

[Kevin L]

4 minutes ago, SAR I said:

If you thought Ryan Fitzpatrick was capable of putting up Aaron Rodgers numbers this year that's more delusional than thinking Geno Smith has the potential to be an NFL superstar.

LOLZ

SAR I

 

Almost as delusional as you thinking the Jets should have one of the best defenses in the league.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, August said:

10 interceptions in 4 games and you think the defense is the biggest problem? That's laughable. Holding the Chiefs to 10 points and holding the Seahawks to 17 points before a bad int is "bad". 

In fairness, the #1 reason the D held the Chiefs to 10 points is because of a technicality that should be removed from the rulebook & never should have been there in the first place.

The other reason is that the Chiefs were playing ball control and IIRC they ate up roughly half the football game - some 25 minutes of game clock - on two first half drives. Then throw in another drive with 5 min left where they were just draining clock (indirectly, by draining our timeouts).

This was all with KC's most dangerous offensive weapon on the sideline. 

The D's stats are better than its actual performance. 

[August]

8 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

"Biggest problem" is meaningless when the entire team has been awful. 

better QB play would alleviate a lot of the pressure on the defense if the offense could score more points. And it isn't like the defense is getting gashed for 30 plus points per game. They're actually holding teams and keeping us in games but the offense is failing to score. 

[SAR I]

7 minutes ago, August said:

Well he held out for more money all offseason because he thought he should be paid like Aaron Rodgers so...

...and we're back at the 'money' strawman.

$12M is what a low end starter like Fitzpatrick is supposed to make.  If you average last year and this year, when is career is over in New York he'll go down as a bargain of a starting quarterback.

You've got to do better than this.

SAR I

[Kevin L]

4 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

We have the 28th ranked defense in football. Hey, at least we're not Detroit.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

The Jets are 16th in total yards allowed, 27th in passing yards allowed and 21st in points allowed. Not sure how that equates to 28th, but ok.

 

[SAR I]

7 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

Almost as delusional as you thinking the Jets should have one of the best defenses in the league.

For the hundredth time, I had the Jets at 7-9 this year, I thought the schedule was too hard, I thought Fitzpatrick would regress, and I thought our defense never showed itself to be elite.  Go find the Season Predictions Thread, it's all there, it's all on paper.

You, apparently, thought Ryan Fitzpatrick was going to become Joe Montana.  One of us is a fool, I know it's not me chief.

SAR I

[Kevin L]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

For the hundredth time, I had the Jets at 7-9 this year, I thought the schedule was too hard, I thought Fitzpatrick would regress, and I thought our defense never showed itself to be elite.  Go find the Season Predictions Thread, it's all there, it's all on paper.

You, apparently, thought Ryan Fitzpatrick was going to become Joe Montana.  One of us is a fool, I know it's not me chief.

SAR I

Right, I've been bashing Fitz for months, but I thought he would be Montana.

[Big Blocker]

2 hours ago, SAR I said:

Bingo.  Great post.

Chad Pennington was the king of no interceptions in desperation time, remember?  So consumed with his stats that he would never try to force a ball in to make a huge play, he'd take a sack before making his stats look bad with some worthwhile high-risk throws to try to win a miracle game.

As for the D, spot on, we are built to win low scoring games where we dominate on D.  I love it when posters say "how are we supposed to win games when Fitzpatrick can only put up 17 points?"  The answer?  Only give up 16.

SAR I

I think it is true that Pennington NEVER led his team back to win or tie a game when the team was down by more than a Td with 20 or fewer minutes left in the game. Never.  Not saying Fitz does that often, but Chadwick is held in high esteem by many Jet fans. 

Btw I see that Seattle so far this year is averaging giving up only 13.5 ppg. 

[August]

11 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Really?

How many interceptions has Ryan Fitzpatrick thrown trying to catch up from mediocre DLine play and pathetic secondary execution?  When the defense can't stop a cold the offense has to compensate.  Just look at Sunday.  Seattle, with a one-legged quarterback and one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL, marches up and down the field, and gets 2 touchdowns in the second quarter, takes an 11 point lead.  After that, the offense has to press, playcalling goes away from the run, and all of a sudden we have Ryan Fitzpatrick throwing the ball all over the place to generate some offense and that's when the interceptions occur.

Scapegoating the defense?  This is a joke, right?

SAR I

Newsflash teams are going to move the ball and put up points. But when your defense holds a team to 17 points that's not asking for a lot you're pretty much chastising the defense because they're not elite. The defense has done a good enough job for us to win games despite its flaws. God fore bid we ask the 12 million dollar man to make some plays and step up in a one score game. 

[Big Blocker]

2 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

Pryor was a first round draft pick and he is NOT capable of doing too many things a safety has got to do like cover someone in close area. Can't do it. Tackle in space. Can't do it. I will not consider any argument that says Calvin Pryor is ANY F-Ing good, because he isn't. Watch the games and you will see.

Pryor is CLEARLY playing far below his draft status.  As Rex would say no question.  How can anyone argue this?

[LIJetsFan]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

How many of those 10 points per game off turnovers were directly linked to Fitz turnovers in a spot where it would be unrealistic to expect our Defense to make a stop?

Remember, we've also had turnovers for opponent TD's from Specials and our Running Backs as well.

Point being, Fitz has alot of turnovers, but those turnovers were mostly on the other side of the field (where a stop should be reasonably expected).

Teams have feasted on the Jets overall on turnovers, and some by other players have been directly costly, as in gave the oppoent the ball ins coring position to start or a score happened on the turnover.

Not a defense for Fitz's horrible play, but appropriate responsibility for that 10-points-per-game off turnovers is needed.

How dumb is the bold?  Instead of putting point up on the board Sixpatrick turns it over in or near the red zone and you think that that is not so bad, that that is not crushing this team.

[August]

12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

In fairness, the #1 reason the D held the Chiefs to 10 points is because of a technicality that should be removed from the rulebook & never should have been there in the first place.

The other reason is that the Chiefs were playing ball control and IIRC they ate up roughly half the football game - some 25 minutes of game clock - on two first half drives. Then throw in another drive with 5 min left where they were just draining clock (indirectly, by draining our timeouts).

This was all with KC's most dangerous offensive weapon on the sideline. 

The D's stats are better than its actual performance. 

Let's use your logic let's say the TD counted. The Jets defense held them to 17 points. Still not bad and most teams would take that in a heartbeat if you told them that their teams defense held the opposing offense on the road to 17 points. 

[phill1c]

GEEZUS!!!

The guy (Fitzpatrick) has a ZERO QB rating in the 4th quarter of games. (hyperbole, it's bad though)

Why are people still considering excuses for his suck@ss play anymore? The ******* Jury is IN!!

Forget Geno or Petty or Joe Namath. The guy SUCKS!!! period.

[Integrity28]

58 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Boom.  And that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about, a safe-haven from the "blame it all on Fitzpatrick!" and "Geno!" narratives.

SAR I

That was my intent. But, all you can do at the end of the day is ask people to observe conversational boundaries. They'll either let you talk over here, while they talk over there, or they'll puke their stupid in ever direction like it is across the rest of the internet... specifically where it concerns politics and religion. QB of the NY Jets is probably somewhere in between those two.

[Integrity28]

59 minutes ago, Kevin L said:

I'm not disagreeing with the narrative that the defense sucks. I'm disagreeing with the narrative that our D is the biggest reason for the losses. 

We are being told to ignore the KC game where Fitz sh*t the bed. We are being told to ignore the turnovers in the SEA game (which led to 10 points, in a 10 point loss.) Sure, maybe not all of them are Fitz's fault. But it's not just the turnovers, it's the throws that should be TD's but aren't, it's the missed plays where a guy is wide open but Fitz is locked onto his first read.

Contextualize it any way you want to, Fitz is the biggest reason we suck.

Who is "we" and why does one persons perspective mean "this is what we're being told". 

At this point, anyone trying to prove which reason is more of "the reason" is wasting their ******* time. The defense is horrible, and it has consumed far more resources over the past decade. That's a HUGE organizational problem that spans multiple years. Fitz sucks. He benchable, and gone after this year. 

In the grand scheme of things, the defense is the bigger problem, because it's the harder problem to fix. Believe it or not. It's going to require even more resources to mend, which means less resources go to the offensive side of the ball. As usual.... which is what led us to Fitz in the first place.

One hand washes the other. It's not an argument dude, it's a predicament. If you want to campaign with anit-Fitz jargon, just go pop into a different thread... there's a ton of them. You won't be wrong in what you're saying, but you also won't be disruptive to the bigger conversation being had here.

[Big Blocker]

54 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Boom.  And that's what I thought this thread was supposed to be about, a safe-haven from the "blame it all on Fitzpatrick!" and "Geno!" narratives.

SAR I

Yeah, 28's point about resource allocation is what points straight to the problem.  Before leaving the O, though, I will say that some of the trades and FA's are also underwhelming, as well as failed draft picks.  Forte is a disappointment so far, at least to me.  There was big talk about him in camp.  Decker you can't blame for being hurt, but with him out the upgrade in Enunwa's performance leaves no net positive.  B Marshall has been hurt, so again so it's like a net decline there.  Winters plays better and makes a hugely costly penalty at a bad time.  ANd I can't understand why Breno is still on the roster.  Meanwhile Amaro is not, and not because they replaced him with some great alternative.  Why was Sudfeld cut?

But on the D, call me over-optimistic this past off season, but think of the talk of Mauldin being the most improved.  The hopes that Lee and perhaps Jenkins would improve speed at LB.  Cutting Pace really helped, huh?  Harris looks no faster than Pace was.  Putting all of McLendon, WIliams, Richardson and Wilkerson on the field is  concept I understand, but takes them out of a 3-4 which might be a better set for all those underneaths that are killing them.  And that's before we get to the atrocious secondary.

So much for off season optimism.

But the point you and 28 make is that a top five D was seen as a reasonable expectation.  It's more like a bottom five at this point. 

Maybe that changes against the weak sisters of the league.  Hard to say at this point.  ANd yes, Fitz has been bad.  But the D is the real surprise.  ANd ftr I don't see it being easily fixed.  Maybe they can go more to press coverage, use more 3-4.  Find a way to cover Pryor's inadequacies in coverage, or Harris having cement shoes. 

But at this point I doubt it.  The CS will continue to use more zone because they fear the long passes in single man coverage.  They don't seem to have the personnel to cover short crossing routes, and will likely continue to play their top 4 DL's at once.  The blueprint for beating this D is out there.  Expect others to use it unitl the Jets show it doesn't work anymore.  Don't hold your breath for that. 

Big challenge for the CS...