The pick at 6 has to be..

[thadude]

2 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I've watched it. I know about it. I've talked about it. Y'all are still dancing around the point. 

It's ok. to each his own. 

Dancing around what?  Almost anytime Howard was used on a GO or Post route he was very effective and him scoring a long td  in the BCS title game showed that.

 

 

 

 

[thadude]

If we go defense at 6 I want Taco. No more mediocre DB's Brady will have zero difficulty lighting up

[goober36]

You're not wrong, athletically he's more gifted than his predecessors... However so was stephen hill. All i'm saying is that he's not yet shown me enough fight in traffic to warrant #6. 

Don't be comparing Stephen Hill and OJ Howard. Stephen Hill always had a problem catching the ball dating back in college, but that's something you can "fix." Ugh, that name makes me cringe every time.


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[thadude]

2 minutes ago, goober36 said:

Don't be comparing Stephen Hill and OJ Howard. Stephen Hill always had a problem catching the ball dating back in college, but that's something you can "fix." Ugh, that name makes me cringe every time.


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This is Internet messageboards world where anyone who looks good at the combine is automatically the next Gholston or Stephen Hill

[goober36]

This is Internet messageboards world where anyone who looks good at the combine is automatically the next Gholston or Stephen Hill

Ugh, I don't get it! He couldn't catch nor run routes. Isn't that was a WR is supposed to do???


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[Paradis]

 

[Paradis]

17 minutes ago, goober36 said:

Don't be comparing Stephen Hill and OJ Howard. Stephen Hill always had a problem catching the ball dating back in college, but that's something you can "fix." Ugh, that name makes me cringe every time.


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relax, i would curse anyone with that comparison. But its a good example of when Management get oogled by measurables (Hill) and neglect the obvious (Jeffery). 

[JetFanatic]

1 hour ago, goober36 said:

I'd have to agree to disagree, respectfully.

Did you watch the game vs Washington? Did you watch the game against Clemson? 4 receptions 104 yards. He was used as a vertical threat and burned every defender..Did you watch the senior bowl?

2 spotlight games and the senior bowl where they utilized him how he should be.

Don't get me wrong, Engram is a great player. But in my opinion, Howard is on another level. Bigger Faster and 4 inches taller than Engram. I don't think Engram will thrive as a 6"2 TE.


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If Engram was a few inches taller it would be different.  Engram is almost like Enunwa.

[goober36]

relax, i would curse anyone with that comparison. But its a good example of when Management get oogled by measurables (Hill) and neglect the obvious (Jeffery). 

Sorry, muscle memory makes me do it when someone mentions Hill. I 100% agree with that statement.

But OJ has shown his measurable talents. I get it, it's at a much smaller scale than you'd like a #6 pick to be, but blame Bama for that. Idiots didn't use him properly. BUT when he was used, you can see what he's capable of.


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[JetFanatic]

29 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I've watched it. I know about it. I've talked about it. Y'all are still dancing around the point. 

It's ok. to each his own. 

Okay I must've missed it.  What exactly is your point?

[Paradis]

Okay I must've missed it.  What exactly is your point?

You've ignored about 2-3 posts I quoted you in.


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[JetFanatic]

1 minute ago, Paradis said:

 

You've ignored about 2-3 posts I quoted you in.


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I only saw the one you quoted me about Samuel who I pray we somehow end up with.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, JetFanatic said:

I only saw the one you quoted me about Samuel who I pray we somehow end up with.

my bad. I must have mixed up my threads. Anyway -- my first post to your OP was pretty clear. I'm pointing out that the production thus far doesn't warrant a 6th overall pick. Lot of assumptions about his game -- although somewhat safe -- are still assumptions. There's parts of his game as a receiver that we've only seen "flash" and it's a lot to ask to just speculate... 

I like Howard a lot. But i like production i know exists with Williams/Cook/Fournette more. 

[goober36]

my bad. I must have mixed up my threads. Anyway -- my first post to your OP was pretty clear. I'm pointing out that the production thus far doesn't warrant a 6th overall pick. Lot of assumptions about his game -- although somewhat safe -- are still assumptions. There's parts of his game as a receiver that we've only seen "flash" and it's a lot to ask to just speculate... 
I like Howard a lot. But i like production i know exists with Williams/Cook/Fournette more. 

I agree, he only has flashes. But you gotta admit, when he was given the opportunity to shine he thrived greatly in all aspects of his game.


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[thadude]

Paradis can relax we are not drafting OJ Howard we're going defense at 6 and it definitely won't be pass rusher it will be another interior DL or JAG DB

[MaxAF]

I wouldn't have a problem with Howard at #6. If John Morton mimicks the Harbaugh offense (his mentor) we will see alot of 2 TE sets as well as establishing a good ground and pound offensive. Perfect for the young QB prospects we have. I think we need to pick up a RB as well somewhere in the early rounds.

[Paradis]

Paradis can relax we are not drafting OJ Howard we're going defense at 6 and it definitely won't be pass rusher it will be another interior DL or JAG DB

I've got my rage-posts for Lattimore or Allen ready


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[Sperm Edwards]

Ask yourself what if the 6th overall prospect is just okay as a starter.  Are you able to still rationalize that he's worth the pick or not? I could still rationalize drafting someone who's just-okay if he's a 2nd-3rd-tier starting QB, CB, LT, or edge rusher. Those guys are still hard to find unless you're looking to spend some $15m/year or more (and still likely won't end up with a top-2 type player). 

If he's not a bust but is just okay and he's a TE, RB, S, ILB, G/C, RT...it's a waste of a pick that early and we should have traded down. By not trading down, it means we surrendered an extra 2nd rounder (or more) to draft just this person.

As yourself how many TEs, RBs, or safeties are worth a top 15 overall pick plus a top-15 2nd round pick. Then after answering, consider that any such player would come complete with a proven track record of being elite at the pro level. Hell, we couldn't even get a lone 1st rounder (let alone a mid-1st plus a mid- 2nd) for Mo.

[Paradis]

Ask yourself what if the 6th overall prospect is just okay as a starter.  Are you able to still rationalize that he's worth the pick or not? I could still rationalize drafting someone who's just-okay if he's a 2nd-3rd-tier starting QB, CB, LT, or edge rusher. Those guys are still hard to find unless you're looking to spend some $15m/year or more (and still likely won't end up with a top-2 type player). 
If he's not a bust but is just okay and he's a TE, RB, S, ILB, G/C, RT...it's a waste of a pick that early and we should have traded down. By not trading down, it means we surrendered an extra 2nd rounder (or more) to draft just this person.
As yourself how many TEs, RBs, or safeties are worth a top 15 overall pick plus a top-15 2nd round pick. Then after answering, consider that any such player would come complete with a proven track record of being elite at the pro level. Hell, we couldn't even get a lone 1st rounder (let alone a mid-1st plus a mid- 2nd) for Mo.

Hey captain trepidation; less positing, more proclamation.

Who do you want and why.


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[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

 

Hey captain trepidation; less positing, more proclamation.

Who do you want and why.


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Said many times before, including to you directly, that I don't know these guys individually, as I've barely seen a couple of them play and have never seen most of them play. All I'd be doing is regurgitating others' opinions on them. 

[Paradis]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Said many times before, including to you directly, that I don't know these guys individually, as I've barely seen a couple of them play and have never seen most of them play. All I'd be doing is regurgitating others' opinions on them. 

thats' fine, i just want to know what youre thinking is prudent. You have opinions like the rest of us - i'm not gonna rip into your candidates. 

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Paradis said:

thats' fine, i just want to know what youre thinking is prudent. You have opinions like the rest of us - i'm not gonna rip into your candidates. 

If I had strong opinions on one or another individuals, I'd say so. I like drafting a QB, so long as they would have the stones to admit failure the very next year (if he's a failure), since I think most that this FO chooses are poor. I like taking a CB (injury history notwithstanding) because a top ("#1") cover corner is a position that can't be ignored and shored up long term with glue and duct tape and Buster Skrine. As I don't watch these guys, I'm limited to picking positions not players. If the player+position isn't of value at our slot, then trade down. That is what I'm thinking.

Reaching and taking non-premium positions too early just bugs the crap out of me, far more than swinging & missing (like with Hackenberg, assuming he continues to miss). It's the idea that he could/should have been had 2 rounds later, and if someone else reached for him by 2 rounds, they're welcome to do so. If no one else gets us all wet at that part of the draft, then trade down and pick up another gambling chip. 

Likewise, that's my general thought with drafting a TE at #6, a puny niche-fit ILB at #20, or at #18 drafting a safety that can't cover. If we're going to go after a cheap $ position, then trade down and pick up an extra mid-2nd rounder in the process. If the (alleged) value after trading down is still a weak position, then trade down again and pick up an extra 3rd or 4th rounder.

I think there's too much buyer's remorse - or more correctly, non-buyer's remorse - in sticking with our original slot for a non-premium position. And no matter how many people type "Well in today's NFL..." the reality is TE is still not a premium position or there would be some making $13-18m/yr, and just-ok starters would still make $10-11m. Swing and get a just-ok player at #6? I can live with that, but make sure he plays a position where, if he's just ok, selecting him at #6 is still possible to rationalize because it at least freed up the cap room by not needing to fill that position in free agency. The exception is if we're already contenders with just 1 or 2 holes, then go for it regardless of position.

Logically, the pick(s) we didn't give up by staying pat at #20 last year (instead of trading up) hold the same value as the pick(s) we do give up by staying pat at #6 this year, only to draft a player that may very well have been there at #13-ish anyway after trading down. So if it's going to be for a QB - which I know you hate - I can get past it as a worthwhile shot (even a bust I never liked, e.g. Sanchez). If we take a TE, RB, G/C, RT, ILB ... boo.

[munchmemory]

On 4/2/2017 at 11:49 AM, T0mShane said:

When is the last time drafting a TE in the top ten worked out for a team?

Not only that, but anyone else remember when folks heaped that kind of praise on Johnny Mitchell before we drafted the slacker/bust?

[JOJOTOWNSELL]

On 4/2/2017 at 0:04 PM, The Crusher said:

 

Is that the "Pathmark guy?" Lol

[Ex-Rex]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:44 AM, Jetster said:

I like it! When we took Kyle Brady I almost fell off the couch! A big lumbering slow white guy with bad hands who looked like Clutch Cargo.

OJ Howard on the other hand, a freak of nature who I believe hasn't touched the surface of his abilities the way he was used at Alabama but was a GO TO GUY when they needed something good to happen.

He's a giant receiver who can catch, run, block, and would make everyone around him better because of his presence on the field. Plus, if they do indeed keep Decker & he comes back healthy, Decker-Enunwa-Howard & Peake (I think Peake is gonna make a move this year). That's 4 guys with good size & strength who can block, with Decker-Enunwa-Howard all able to work out of the slot as interchangeable pieces. Makes going in motion real difficult for a defense since each one brings something to the table, Enunwas speed, Deckers size & great route running and OJ just being beastly.

I like Howard as well, but at 6 it would be a reach. I like a trade down with Tampa Bay - who would love if Mike Williams or Delvin Cook were there - and take Howard at 10 and get a fourth round pick as well.

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, munchmemory said:

Not only that, but anyone else remember when folks heaped that kind of praise on Johnny Mitchell before we drafted the slacker/bust?

Different guy different era, different everything. You can't say because one guy failed that the other will because they share the same position.

[Ex-Rex]

5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Ask yourself what if the 6th overall prospect is just okay as a starter.  Are you able to still rationalize that he's worth the pick or not? I could still rationalize drafting someone who's just-okay if he's a 2nd-3rd-tier starting QB, CB, LT, or edge rusher. Those guys are still hard to find unless you're looking to spend some $15m/year or more (and still likely won't end up with a top-2 type player). 

If he's not a bust but is just okay and he's a TE, RB, S, ILB, G/C, RT...it's a waste of a pick that early and we should have traded down. By not trading down, it means we surrendered an extra 2nd rounder (or more) to draft just this person.

As yourself how many TEs, RBs, or safeties are worth a top 15 overall pick plus a top-15 2nd round pick. Then after answering, consider that any such player would come complete with a proven track record of being elite at the pro level. Hell, we couldn't even get a lone 1st rounder (let alone a mid-1st plus a mid- 2nd) for Mo.

My point exactly. I like the player selection, just not where he would be taken if the Jets stand pat at 6. If they stay at 6 I think CB or safety is a much higher priority. Even a LB is not out of the question if he can rush the passer. A TE usually is deeper in the first round, maybe top 15 or later.

[Paradis]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

If I had strong opinions on one or another individuals, I'd say so. I like drafting a QB, so long as they would have the stones to admit failure the very next year (if he's a failure), since I think most that this FO chooses are poor. I like taking a CB (injury history notwithstanding) because a top ("#1") cover corner is a position that can't be ignored and shored up long term with glue and duct tape and Buster Skrine. As I don't watch these guys, I'm limited to picking positions not players. If the player+position isn't of value at our slot, then trade down. That is what I'm thinking.

Reaching and taking non-premium positions too early just bugs the crap out of me, far more than swinging & missing (like with Hackenberg, assuming he continues to miss). It's the idea that he could/should have been had 2 rounds later, and if someone else reached for him by 2 rounds, they're welcome to do so. If no one else gets us all wet at that part of the draft, then trade down and pick up another gambling chip. 

Likewise, that's my general thought with drafting a TE at #6, a puny niche-fit ILB at #20, or at #18 drafting a safety that can't cover. If we're going to go after a cheap $ position, then trade down and pick up an extra mid-2nd rounder in the process. If the (alleged) value after trading down is still a weak position, then trade down again and pick up an extra 3rd or 4th rounder.

I think there's too much buyer's remorse - or more correctly, non-buyer's remorse - in sticking with our original slot for a non-premium position. And no matter how many people type "Well in today's NFL..." the reality is TE is still not a premium position or there would be some making $13-18m/yr, and just-ok starters would still make $10-11m. Swing and get a just-ok player at #6? I can live with that, but make sure he plays a position where, if he's just ok, selecting him at #6 is still possible to rationalize because it at least freed up the cap room by not needing to fill that position in free agency. The exception is if we're already contenders with just 1 or 2 holes, then go for it regardless of position.

Logically, the pick(s) we didn't give up by staying pat at #20 last year (instead of trading up) hold the same value as the pick(s) we do give up by staying pat at #6 this year, only to draft a player that may very well have been there at #13-ish anyway after trading down. So if it's going to be for a QB - which I know you hate - I can get past it as a worthwhile shot (even a bust I never liked, e.g. Sanchez). If we take a TE, RB, G/C, RT, ILB ... boo.

The key is not to be overly rigid, or dogmatic. 

Most of what you said there is fairly strong material. You're assessing the situation with management spectacles and making a good argument about not everyone has to be amazing all the time. Nor do we have to be shackled by sunken cost fallacies and things of that nature... I'm with you. Just be careful not to get cement headed about is all i'm saying--

Our situation is a function of our roster and its decision makers. There's more than just "the present" happening. There's self-serving agendas (within reason) that play at least some kind of role in the way things play out as well.

QB, OT, CB, DE/Pass Rushers are vital and can have a significant impact on a team's fortunes. But if the hand you've been dealt says you've got a flush, don't go chasing a full house. Eg -- questionable QBs, no tackles, corners with busted bodies... don't be ruling out running-backs and tight ends when that's your hand. Especially with our roster. That's as bad as Al Davis filling out his draft cards based on 40 times. 

[bassmaster2]

Take the CB out Ohio State

[Tinstar]

12 minutes ago, bassmaster2 said:

Take the CB out Ohio State

Which one  ?

[HessStation]

On 4/2/2017 at 10:33 AM, JetFanatic said:

O.J Howard.  Okay so I've been thinking about this draft probably a little too much.  It's such a vital draft for this franchise it's not even funny.  As far as order of importance for this draft for me it's this:

1.  An offensive identity. - (O.J Howard)

-I think O.J Howard puts a lot of check-marks in a lot of boxes for the Jets.  Not only does he give them a position of need, but he gives this team some type of weapon and some type of identity on offense.  He will hopefully turn into a player that teams need to gameplan against for us.  He makes all surrounding offensive players much better by making the defense have to account for him all over the field which will open things up and leave one on one coverage for our young speedy receivers to hopefully take advantage of.  At the very least it'll make their job that much easier only going up against single coverage now.  He makes the offensive line a little better as he is a good willing blocker who will only get better.  Most importantly for me, he's going to be a security blanket for one of our young guys in Hackenberg/Petty and most likely their best friend on the field.  I love the potential of having either Petty or Hackenberg winning it out and blossoming and growing with potential playmakers like Howard/Anderson/Enunwa/D. Smith 

2.  Safety - (Budda Baker)

-I think a ball-hawking safety is vital in today's league and on this defense.  I personally think that it was an off year for Wilkerson coming off of that injury and to be honest it was an easy year to check it in and take off lets face it.  It's a trigger effect on defense and it starts with the defensive line.  I think this year we get our old Wilkerson back and I really feel like this defensive line is going to do damage starting up front.  That's going to essential lead to the jobs of our secondary players being that much easier.  Still going to present a great challenge though.  In the last mock I did I have the Jets grabbing Budda Baker.  If you haven't seen this guy play I highly recommend watching his film.  Tyrann Mathieu sticks out at me when I watch this kid in that he's smaller but man is this kid feisty and has tons of heart.  Would love him back there roaming around the secondary.

3a.  Cornerback - (Jalen 'Teez' Tabor)

-Cornerbacks are always a high priority for me.  You can never have enough.  Our current corners are young and have potential.  Claiborne has tons of potential but he's an injury away from leaving us in really bad shape cornerback wise if he goes down.  Getting some insurance in a deep deep deep CB class is ideal and we can land a stud with our top 3rd pick here which is awesome.  I personally have Tabor here because with his underwhelming 40 time I do feel he's going to drop but this kid can play.  If Claiborne can stay healthy and guys like Burris and Williams take the next step and continue to improve this unit can be huge for us.  If the defensive line plays up to their All Star potential there are going to be a lot of rushed inaccurate throws that these CBs can hopefully take advantage of.  

3b.  Wide Receiver - (???)

-Here I would go with the best WR available.  I'm basing this on the fact that I think Decker is gone.  That leaves us with Enunwa/R. Anderson/D. Smith/J. Marshall/C. Peake.  While full of potential I think we still need one.  This receiver class is tricky this year.  I really feel there are guys that are going to be had in the 3rd round who can be legit #1 receivers.  I think we still need one more guy here who we feel can be that guy.  In my mock I have Curtis Samuel from Ohio State going here.  The kid is a WR/RB hybrid and complete stud I think.  

Well that's my nonsense guys thanks for reading I know it was long.  If we can land something like that with our first 4 picks I think it's a great great start to what'll be an exciting season with our young team.

I'm digging it.

[varjet]

Macc is playing "defense" in this draft.

He needs to hit on players that can contribute, particularly in 2018.  The natives are getting restless.

Think about Macc's first 2 drafts.  There is potential, but only 1 player has contributed in a meaningfully way.  Although people say a draft needs 3 years to be evaluated, I think at this point Macc's drafts are on the weakside-that could change in 2017 for the 2015/6 picks, but that is the way it looks now.

So he will be tempted to pick players that look good right away.  If that happens and some other players catch on, Macc will feel much more secure.

[roscoeword]

The Calvin Pryor pick two years ago has traumatized me regrading picking safeties in the first round. 

[varjet]

1 minute ago, roscoeword said:

The Calvin Pryor pick two years ago has traumatized me regrading picking safeties in the first round. 

Clinton-Dix would have been great-he was picked right after.

Landon Collins would be nice.

Keanu Neal has had an enormous impact for the Falcons.

Earl Thomas.

Earl Berry at 5.  One of these guys would have to be that good.

If Macc thought that Hooker or Adams could be another Berry or Sean Taylor, they would be worth the 6th pick.

Laron Landry-not so much.

[Lil Woody]

4 minutes ago, roscoeword said:

The Calvin Pryor pick two years ago has traumatized me regrading picking safeties in the first round. 

It was a horrible pick at the time and it's a horrible pick now. You just do NOT take safeties at the top of the 1st round unless they have elite speed, range, ball skills and isn't afraid to hit. Basically you have to get Earl Thomas or better. Hooker has the sky high potential but is so raw and is just a centerfielder right now. He probably turns into a great ball hawking FS over time, but he needs the development time, I don't know that he'll ever be a sure tackler. You will get a good to great player for the 2nd half of his rookie contract. Adams I love. But not a 6, more like 10-15. He's a limited range SS with exceptional leadership and checks all the boxes except speed.