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Timeline to the Tank; How did Maccagnan and Company get Here?

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22 minutes ago, JiF said:

Oh, they're jabs.  If they werent, this would have been your first response instead the same similar sh*t you've responded with to me recently.  But whatevs. 

Not sure how I was supposed to know who of the 7 you were referring to.  Lac Edwards technically could be the most sure shot starter and so could Hack if you're the super optimistic kind, which you tend to be.

Lee - I have very little faith he'll be anything more than average in this league.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.  Sure, he starts here next season by just draft status alone.

Jenkins - is a JAG in every sense of the word.  Would he start anywhere else?  Doubt it.

Burris - showed some signs last season that he could be o.k.  Who knows?  He sure didnt do anything that is giving me confidence he's a starter in this league.

Shell - probably the only one of the group I have high hopes for and could probably catch on somewhere else as well.

Peake - I mean, like you said, this is just wishful thinking.  And yes, even harder to classify as a "starter" based on the position.  That said, I guess he has a shot behind Q and Anderson to compete with the rookies and Marshall for that 3rd WR position.  I'll say I'm much higher on the rookies and Marshall than I am him but who knows.  Pure speculation at this point. 

 

It's all pure speculation at this point.  

I'm speculating that they could be solid NFL players, you're speculating they will not.

Now we can watch the next season or two unfold and see how it goes.

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5 minutes ago, AFJF said:

It's all pure speculation at this point.  

I'm speculating that they could be solid NFL players, you're speculating they will not.

Now we can watch the next season or two unfold and see how it goes.

Once again, not what happened...but carry on, this is getting cute.

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On 7/16/2017 at 0:23 PM, T0mShane said:

I only defend Idzik when SOME POSTERS evoke Idzik as an all-encompassing defense of the many failings of Mike Maccagnan and Rex Ryan. It's my belief that it's impossible to continue to support Maccagnan and Ryan without pointing to Idzik, because they're both objectively and independently bad. I am an arbiter of truth and objectivity.

 

And I don't have minions. We all consider ourselves dashing, faux-intellectual rogues.

the ilk has been replaced by the collective

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57 minutes ago, JiF said:

Once again, this couldnt be further from the truth. I'm trying to have a conversation with you about Football.  Something you complain doesnt happen enough here and this is your response?  You're trying very hard to paint me as this Mac hater extraordinaire, to the point where you dont even respond to me and make it about something else while taking these little jabs.  This is a case in point.  For some reason you struggle having conversations with people who disagree with your (see Fitz) stance on the team.  

Do I think Mac is good at his job?  No.  I dont.  But I'll give him credit where credit is due and I have his entire tenure; Leo is great, I damn near did back flips when we took him. Although he would not have been my choice, I have a lot of faith in Adams and completely understand the pick.  While he wouldnt have been my selection, I think Marcus Maye breaks the 2nd round bust curse we've had since David Harris.  Robbie Anderson could be a nice little UDFA find. I think ASJ could be a diamond in the rough.  I was fond of Jordan Leggett pre draft.  If used properly, I think Maudlin could be a good player.  I'm hopeful Brandon Shell continues the promise he showed last season.  While I think Christian Hackenberg in the 2nd is one of the most moronic picks I've ever seen made, I get liking him as a prospect based on his history as a prospect.  

So if you're done with responding to me with jabs every time I respond to you, do you want to talk Football now?   I'm looking at this draft you're referring to and I dont see the 5 "legit" NFL starters you're referring to.  I see guys who could start on the talent depraved Jets but I dont think that's saying much, hence the question I asked you.    

 

Meh, Mac sucks 

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4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Once again, not what happened...but carry on, this is getting cute.

Sorry, you're speculating that Lee wouldn't start anywhere else, Jenkins wouldn't start anywhere else, Burris probably wouldn't start anywhere else, Shell might be good enough to be on a team somewhere, and you guess Peake might have a shot.

I apologize for suggesting you didn't have faith in them.

 

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21 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Sorry, you're speculating that Lee wouldn't start anywhere else, Jenkins wouldn't start anywhere else, Burris probably wouldn't start anywhere else, Shell might be good enough to be on a team somewhere, and you guess Peake might have a shot.

I apologize for suggesting you didn't have faith in them.

 

Exactly, I said a few might and gave my take.  So once again, you misquoted me and misrepresented my entire position and tried to paint me as something I'm not but it's cool brah, you just want to talk football. 

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2 minutes ago, JiF said:

Exactly, I said a few might and gave my take.  So once again, you misquoted me and misrepresented my entire position and tried to paint me as something I'm not but it's cool brah, you just want to talk football. 

I want to talk football with anyone w/o a bias.  Clearly you have one toward players acquired by Mac.

I get it.  We choose sides, we dig in, we don't want to budge.

Its cool.

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26 minutes ago, AFJF said:

I want to talk football with anyone w/o a bias.  Clearly you have one toward players acquired by Mac.

I get it.  We choose sides, we dig in, we don't want to budge.

Its cool.

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

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11 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

In fairness to Glenn, the only way to make the positive case for Macc is to point to things other than Macc.

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9 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont have a bias.  I call it like I see it.  I literally just gave you numerous examples of picks/players that he acquired that I like but you chose to ignore that and keep spewing this garbage. It's bizarre.  To say the least. 

And btw, this is incredibly ironic coming from you considering your antics last offseason. 

Sorry, I missed the multiple examples of picks/players that you like.  I was only looking at our conversation about the 5 players I brought up.  

Who were the picks you praised?

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4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In fairness to Glenn, the only way to make the positive case for Macc is to point to things other than Macc.

I'm speaking strictly of the players Mac has acquired.  Some of them look like NFL players.  Crazy to have a GM who can draft those.

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Just now, AFJF said:

I'm speaking strictly of the players Mac has acquired.  Some of them look like NFL players.  Crazy to have a GM who can draft those.

Marginal, end-of-roster NFL players. 

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Marginal, end-of-roster NFL players. 

Hey, an upgrade is an upgrade.

Hopefully the fact that he has shown he can identify what an NFL player looks like means he'll get better at it.

The last guy couldn't even do that much.

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3 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Hey, an upgrade is an upgrade.

Hopefully the fact that he has shown he can identify what an NFL player looks like means he'll get better at it.

The last guy couldn't even do that much.

The only substantive difference between Mac and the last guy is that the last guy had to spend two years purging the roster of all the last coach's very expensive personal friends and family. Maccagnan only had to purge the roster of guys he overpaid himself. 

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

The only substantive difference between Mac and the last guy is that the last guy had to spend two years purging the roster of all the last coach's very expensive personal friends and family. Maccagnan only had to purge the roster of guys he overpaid himself. 

But no difference in the players drafted, no?  Still on that Jalen Saunders bandwagon, are we?

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In two years, the net will be the same. 

And it will always be the same as long as Belichick is in New England.  Maybe just stop wasting money on GM's?

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8 minutes ago, AFJF said:

And it will always be the same as long as Belichick is in New England.  Maybe just stop wasting money on GM's?

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

I wonder what fans of good teams argue about.

 

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11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

Do you see dead people too?  

 

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10 minutes ago, AFJF said:

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

Way to aim high there Glenn. 

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15 minutes ago, AFJF said:

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

I wonder what fans of good teams argue about.

 

Pryor failed because he was an idiot with zero instincts. Lee will fail because he's an idiot with zero instincts and is puny. Geno' college career and ability to throw a football justified being picked in the second round while Hack's college career and ability to throw a football rendered him undraftable. And Saunders never handed an NFL football game over to Rex's Bills by diving head first at the ten yard line while returning a kickoff, then fumbling. 

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Pryor failed because he was an idiot with zero instincts. Lee will fail because he's an idiot with zero instincts and is puny. Geno' college career and ability to throw a football justified being picked in the second round while Hack's college career and ability to throw a football rendered him undraftable. And Saunders never handed an NFL football game over to Rex's Bills by diving head first at the ten yard line while returning a kickoff, then fumbling. 

1) Incorrect.  If Darron Lee fails, it will be because he does something stupid off the field.

2) If Hack retires tomrrow, he was a better pick than GeNOOOO

3) Kinda' hard to screw up a play in week 7 when you get cut by week 3.

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2 minutes ago, AFJF said:

1) Incorrect.  If Darron Lee fails, it will be because he does something stupid off the field.

2) If Hack retires tomrrow, he was a better pick than GeNOOOO

3) Kinda' hard to screw up a play in week 7 when you get cut by week 3.

There is no available argument you can make, either from a statistical or a talent standpoint, that Hackenberg in Round Two was as justifiable as Geno in Round Two. 

And Lee is the ILB equivalent of Pryor. It's almost eerie.

 

 

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Just now, T0mShane said:

There is no available argument you can make, either from a statistical or a talent standpoint, that Hackenberg in Round Two was as justifiable as Geno in Round Two. 

And Lee is the ILB equivalent of Pryor. It's almost eerie.

 

 

Geno was more bad than good in his time here.  If Hack never plays, he'll be no bad and no good.

Lee did some of the things he was drafted to do last season.  Pryor?  C'mon man?  Louisville Slugger?  I'd go with Louisville Slacker.

Consistently showed up late to meetings, made two or three big hits per season.  He was terrible.

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1 minute ago, AFJF said:

Geno was more bad than good in his time here.  If Hack never plays, he'll be no bad and no good.

Lee did some of the things he was drafted to do last season.  Pryor?  C'mon man?  Louisville Slugger?  I'd go with Louisville Slacker.

Consistently showed up late to meetings, made two or three big hits per season.  He was terrible.

We're talking about at the time of their drafting with Geno and Hack. 

And Lee was equally terrible, is equally problematic as a personality, and didn't even get those highlight reel hits. He got destroyed in the run game, was useless against the pass, and then missed a month with a hamstring. Then when he came back, the defense went right to hell.

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1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

We're talking about at the time of their drafting with Geno and Hack. 

And Lee was equally terrible, is equally problematic as a personality, and didn't even get those highlight reel hits. He got destroyed in the run game, was useless against the pass, and then missed a month with a hamstring. Then when he came back, the defense went right to hell.

Lee > Pryor

I say we go to the baseball forum to debate Lee Guterman vs. Tim Burke as soon as we're done here.

Edited by AFJF

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2 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Lee > Pryor

I say we go to the baseball forum to debate Lee Guterman vs. Tim Burke as soon as we're done here.

Guterman couldn't find his arm slot or release point? Or was that Tim Sanderson?

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Just now, T0mShane said:

Guterman couldn't find his arm slot or release point? Or was that Tim Sanderson?

That was Scott Sanderson, who once beat Roger Clemens and the Red Sox head-to-head on opening day.  I know because I was there.  Nasty 12-6 curve ball.

Guterman once led the Yankees in wins with 11 (IIRC) as a middle reliever.  Ahhhh, the good ole' days.

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