Does Eli Manning Deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

[nyjunc]

45 minutes ago, prime21 said:

I've been giving you arguments for the past two days.  We are going around in

I'm waiting for one that actually helps proves he is a HOFer.

basically he had 2 good months of football where he had to lead O's to 17 & 19 pts to win SBs thus "earning SB MVPs" along w/ compiled, meaningless stats playing in mostly meaningless games b/c he can't help his team win unless everything is perfect around him makes him a HOFer? I got it but I have a higher standard for the greatest players of all time like you should actually be considered one before joining them.  He was a nice, solid starting QB that a team could win w/ if they had enough talent around him. He wasn't a difference making QB, if he was he would have gone 1 and done 67% of his playoff apps, he would have PO wins where his D allowed more than 20 and would have led O to more than 10.5 PPG in playoff losses.

[prime21]

22 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I'm waiting for one that actually helps proves he is a HOFer.

basically he had 2 good months of football where he had to lead O's to 17 & 19 pts to win SBs thus "earning SB MVPs" along w/ compiled, meaningless stats playing in mostly meaningless games b/c he can't help his team win unless everything is perfect around him makes him a HOFer? I got it but I have a higher standard for the greatest players of all time like you should actually be considered one before joining them.  He was a nice, solid starting QB that a team could win w/ if they had enough talent around him. He wasn't a difference making QB, if he was he would have gone 1 and done 67% of his playoff apps, he would have PO wins where his D allowed more than 20 and would have led O to more than 10.5 PPG in playoff losses.

What about Namath and Griese?  Their numbers are no where near elite status.  Griese played with a dominant defense and a dominant running game (Top 3 each year)  and averaged under 100 yards passing in the  playoffs during their 2 Super Bowl runs. Career wise He passed for about 25,00 yards with a 56.2 completion percentage.  Namath finished with 47 more interceptions than td's and a 50.1 completion percentage. His passer rating currently ranks him at 145 place all time.  

If these two are in then certainly Eli deserves to be there.  

 

 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, prime21 said:

What about Namath and Griese?  Their numbers are no where near elite status.  Griese played with a dominant defense and a dominant running game (Top 3 each year)  and averaged under 100 yards passing in the  playoffs during their 2 Super Bowl runs. Career wise He passed for about 25,00 yards with a 56.2 completion percentage.  Namath finished with 47 more interceptions than td's and a 50.1 completion percentage. His passer rating currently ranks him at 145 place all time.  

If these two are in then certainly Eli deserves to be there.  

 

 

I have said a million times I think Joe is the most overrated QB in history BUT a lot of that has to do w/ injuries.  earlier in his career when he was relatively healthy he was great.

Joe was 2x AFL player of the year, was all AFL 1st team 4 times and made an NFL st team all pro despite his best years already behind him. Namath led the league in yards 3x, Tds 1x, completions 2x. Joe's passer rating is low but he had 4 seasons in the top 5 in rating, Eli has had one top 10 season his entire career(7th)

Griese was a 2x 1st team all pro. he led the league in pass TDs 1x, rating 1x, comp % 1x. 

 

these were all things Eli has never done. The #s of those guys don't look good b/c they played in different eras than today. you can't compare #s of players of those eras to today, you have to compare them against their peers. Like I showed you the other day, Eli demolishes Johnny Unitas' #s but Johnny dominated his era and Eli has not.

[Savage69]

13 minutes ago, prime21 said:

What about Namath and Griese?  Their numbers are no where near elite status.  Griese played with a dominant defense and a dominant running game (Top 3 each year)  and averaged under 100 yards passing in the  playoffs during their 2 Super Bowl runs. Career wise He passed for about 25,00 yards with a 56.2 completion percentage.  Namath finished with 47 more interceptions than td's and a 50.1 completion percentage. His passer rating currently ranks him at 145 place all time.  

If these two are in then certainly Eli deserves to be there.  

 

 

There were vast rule changes after 1978 that favored the Offense and protected the QB. Namath and some others played without those rules you can't really compare them.. Plus Joe was a total gun slinger and didn't care about stats.. Not to mention Joe passed for over 4,000 yds in a 14 game season how many Jet QB's did that in 16 games??

[prime21]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I have said a million times I think Joe is the most overrated QB in history BUT a lot of that has to do w/ injuries.  earlier in his career when he was relatively healthy he was great.

Joe was 2x AFL player of the year, was all AFL 1st team 4 times and made an NFL st team all pro despite his best years already behind him. Namath led the league in yards 3x, Tds 1x, completions 2x. Joe's passer rating is low but he had 4 seasons in the top 5 in rating, Eli has had one top 10 season his entire career(7th)

Griese was a 2x 1st team all pro. he led the league in pass TDs 1x, rating 1x, comp % 1x. 

 

these were all things Eli has never done. The #s of those guys don't look good b/c they played in different eras than today. you can't compare #s of players of those eras to today, you have to compare them against their peers. Like I showed you the other day, Eli demolishes Johnny Unitas' #s but Johnny dominated his era and Eli has not.

It doesn't matter what era, Griese's numbers are horrific.   In 1971, the Dolphins were the No. 3 overall scoring defense and had more yards rushing than passing. In 1972, Griese only started five games and the team had the No. 1 scoring defense and almost 3,000 rushing yards. In 1973, the Dolphins allowed just over 10 points per game. The team rushed for 2,500 yards, and Griese only passed for 1,422. The Dolphins' success is in no way related to Griese's play. The team had an extraordinary defense and three incredible runners in their backfield in Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick.  Yo keep saying how the defense carried Manning yet Griese barely had to throw the ball to win 2 rings.  THE 2 rings that put him in the hall of fame.  Manning had a great defense in his Super Bowl wins but he led them down the field twice at the end of the game to win it.  His numbers in the playoffs are excellent for those two runs.  He could not have won without the defense HOWEVER the defense could not have won without Eii. Team game.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, prime21 said:

It doesn't matter what era, Griese's numbers are horrific.   In 1971, the Dolphins were the No. 3 overall scoring defense and had more yards rushing than passing. In 1972, Griese only started five games and the team had the No. 1 scoring defense and almost 3,000 rushing yards. In 1973, the Dolphins allowed just over 10 points per game. The team rushed for 2,500 yards, and Griese only passed for 1,422. The Dolphins' success is in no way related to Griese's play. The team had an extraordinary defense and three incredible runners in their backfield in Larry Csonka, Mercury Morris and Jim Kiick.  Yo keep saying how the defense carried Manning yet Griese barely had to throw the ball to win 2 rings.  THE 2 rings that put him in the hall of fame.  Manning had a great defense in his Super Bowl wins but he led them down the field twice at the end of the game to win it.  His numbers in the playoffs are excellent for those two runs.  He could not have won without the defense HOWEVER the defense could not have won without Eii. Team game.

it was a DIFFERENT GAME.  Griese didn't get in just b/c of 2 rings, he was a 2 time 1st team ALL PRO player meaning he was considered the best QB in the league for 2 years.  Eli has never made any all pro team(whether official or unofficial), he has never been considered one of the best QBs in the league.

The giants defense could have won those SBs w/ any decent QB, Eli wasn't the difference maker.  if he was they wouldn't have missed the POs 7 of the last 9 years.

 

again, I never said Eli wasn't good. he was good but NYG won b/c their D was incredible shutting down some of the best offenses the league has seen to allow Eli to win SBs where he led his O to 17 & 19 points.

[prime21]

Just now, nyjunc said:

it was a DIFFERENT GAME.  Griese didn't get in just b/c of 2 rings, he was a 2 time 1st team ALL PRO player meaning he was considered the best QB in the league for 2 years.  Eli has never made any all pro team(whether official or unofficial), he has never been considered one of the best QBs in the league.

The giants defense could have won those SBs w/ any decent QB, Eli wasn't the difference maker.  if he was they wouldn't have missed the POs 7 of the last 9 years.

 

again, I never said Eli wasn't good. he was good but NYG won b/c their D was incredible shutting down some of the best offenses the league has seen to allow Eli to win SBs where he led his O to 17 & 19 points.

Did you even watch???  Did you see the game at SF or GB?  Did you see him make the plays with the ball in his hand in the most crucial time of the Super Bowl. Do you see his stats for the 8 games they won?   

You're argument now supporting Griese as a HOF is probably more absurd then you arguing Eli shouldn't be in.  Griese is on every single single list you can find on the internet of who should not be in the HOF  

Griese was never considered the best QB in the league even when he was voted  All Pro. Trent Dilfer was an All Pro so that means he was considered the best QB in the league????   

 

[August]

Decent/good numbers + 2 Super Bowls + 2 Super Bowl mvp’s= Hall Of Fame

[Savage69]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it was a DIFFERENT GAME.  Griese didn't get in just b/c of 2 rings, he was a 2 time 1st team ALL PRO player meaning he was considered the best QB in the league for 2 years.  Eli has never made any all pro team(whether official or unofficial), he has never been considered one of the best QBs in the league.

The giants defense could have won those SBs w/ any decent QB, Eli wasn't the difference maker.  if he was they wouldn't have missed the POs 7 of the last 9 years.

 

again, I never said Eli wasn't good. he was good but NYG won b/c their D was incredible shutting down some of the best offenses the league has seen to allow Eli to win SBs where he led his O to 17 & 19 points.

Just like brother Peyton who retired after his last bowl win..That season in the 9 games he started he went 9 tds 17 picks.. In the Bowl he was 13 of 23 for a 141 yds no td's a pick and was sacked 5 times.. Yes Defense can win championships..

[nyjunc]

40 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Did you even watch???  Did you see the game at SF or GB?  Did you see him make the plays with the ball in his hand in the most crucial time of the Super Bowl. Do you see his stats for the 8 games they won?   

You're argument now supporting Griese as a HOF is probably more absurd then you arguing Eli shouldn't be in.  Griese is on every single single list you can find on the internet of who should not be in the HOF  

Griese was never considered the best QB in the league even when he was voted  All Pro. Trent Dilfer was an All Pro so that means he was considered the best QB in the league????   

 

obviously you didn't watch or you'd remember a Favre INt in OT to set up the GW FG at GB, you'd remember that the Giants scored 10 pts the 2ndf half and OT at SF and both scoring drives were set up by muffed/fumbled punts including the GW in OT.

Trent Dilfer was never an all pro, do you know what 1st team all pro means?  not pro bowl but all pro(Eli only has 2 real Pro Bowls by the way).  1st team all pro is the best QB in a given year, there are numerous outlets that put out all pro teams so multiple QBs may win unofficial 1st or 2nd team all pro.  Eli has NEVER made even a 2nd team w/ any all pro team whether the official one or not.,  Griese was a TWO time 1st team all pro meaning he was the best QB in football those years.  

Griese is on those lists b/c those are the same people that say Eli has a higher comp % than Marino.  they are taking modern #s and applying it to QBs of the past which isn't fair.  You can only compare players vs. their era as far as #s go as rules change and the game itself changes. In your eyes Eli must be better than Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas b/c he has better compiled #s. 

[greenwichjetfan]

41 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

Just like brother Peyton who retired after his last bowl win..That season in the 9 games he started he went 9 tds 17 picks.. In the Bowl he was 13 of 23 for a 141 yds no td's a pick and was sacked 5 times.. Yes Defense can win championships..

Savage I know you from JI. You're better than this.

His number don't lie...he generally sucked when it came time to actually throw that ball for much of that season. But what he did pre-snap is why they were able to win the super bowl with that dominant defense. Constantly checking into the right play, or at least the safe play when it mattered the most. He threw two TDs to beat the patriots in the afc title game before that super bowl. You think Brock Oswieler would have won a super bowl for them that year?

Nyjunc likes to talk about the defense carrying Peyton and Eli to super bowls as if it was in spite of their play and they added nothing positive except a few flukey plays.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the exact same token, he gives brady gets all the credit for all of the patriots success...
 

On 1/22/2018 at 8:38 AM, nyjunc said:

Brady is the system, the coaches don't matter, the players around him don't mater.  as long as he is healthy they win. this system hasn't worked w/ BB when he didn't have Brady, it hasn't worked for assistants that left to take HC jobs.  Brady is the system.

...even when the exact same argument can be made for a few of brady's runs as well. His very first super bowl is a perfect example:
- The refs overturned brady's game-losing fumble against the raiders. No refs, and brady is simply a goat, instead of in consideration for the g.o.a.t.
- brady had literally no effect (positive or negative) on the AFC championship that year because he got hurt and bledsoe+special teams+defense beat the steelers
- belichick's defense held the greatest show on turf to 3 points in the first 3 quarters, and 17 points total. All brady needed was 145 yards, 1 td, and Adam Vinitierri to win. Yet according to nyjunc, the pats entire success rests entirely on brady, and belichick is nothing but a scrub without him.

 

================================

 

Regarding Eli: irrelevant of anyone's protests, Eli will be a hall of famer, and will have earned it.

[nyjunc]

40 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

Just like brother Peyton who retired after his last bowl win..That season in the 9 games he started he went 9 tds 17 picks.. In the Bowl he was 13 of 23 for a 141 yds no td's a pick and was sacked 5 times.. Yes Defense can win championships..

Peyton's 2006 title was mostly D as well.  he had the one great half vs. NE ion the title game but other than that did very little and the D allowed less PPG in that postseason than any of Brady's D's w/ the supposed "great" Pats defenses that carried him to SBs.

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Savage I know you from JI. You're better than this.

His number don't lie...he generally sucked when it came time to actually throw that ball for much of that season. But what he did pre-snap is why they were able to win the super bowl with that dominant defense. Constantly checking into the right play, or at least the safe play when it mattered the most. He threw two TDs to beat the patriots in the afc title game before that super bowl. You think Brock Oswieler would have won a super bowl for them that year?

Nyjunc likes to talk about the defense carrying Peyton and Eli to super bowls as if it was in spite of their play and they added nothing positive except a few flukey plays.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the exact same token, he gives brady gets all the credit for all of the patriots success...
 

...even when the exact same argument can be made for a few of brady's runs as well. His very first super bowl is a perfect example:
- The refs overturned brady's game-losing fumble against the raiders. No refs, and brady is definitely a goat
- brady had literally no effect (positive or negative) on the AFC championship that year because he got hurt and bledsoe+special teams+defense beat the steelers
- belichick's defense held the greatest show on turf to 3 points in the first 3 quarters, and 17 points total. All brady needed was 145 yards, 1 td, and Adam Vinitierri to win. Yet somehow, the pats entire success rests entirely on brady, and belichick is nothing but a scrub without him.

 

================================

 

Regarding Eli: irrelevant of anyone's protests, Eli will be a hall of famer, and will have earned it.

it's so funny the way you want to credit Peyton and BB for everything.

 

his pre-snap reads won that SB I guess his presnap reads held Brady to 18 pts that game and Cam to 10 pts in SB while scoring a TD.  He threw 2 Tds the entire postseason and the "drive" for his 2nd TD started at the NE 16 yard line. Den would have won w/ Osweiler, they were 5-2 w/ Brock, 7-2 w/ Peyton.  They scored more PPG w/ Brock than Peyton but his presnap reads which led to 8 more INts than TDs were obviously the key to that run.

 

Brady's 1st SB the team was 5-11 the year before, 0-2 to start 2001 then magically went 11-3 the rest of the way.  The Pats D in that SB became the FIRST EVER to blow a double digit 4th qtr lead in the SB by blowing a 14 pt lead and Brady rescued them but yeah that SB itself Brady did as much as Eli I n either of his.  the difference is that was 1 SB, in his other FOUR SB wins he led his O's to an average of 29.5 PPg including 2 years later leading them to 32 w/ 18 4th qtr pts as the D became the SECOND EVER to blow a double digit 4th qtr lead.

 

There is no comparison btw Brady and any of the Mannings.  Peyton is somewhat close, Eli is so far away he can't even see him.

 

the tuck rule play was the correct call unfortunately.

Brady set up Bledsoe on his lone TD drive w/ a 1st down in Pitt territory in that title game

how many points did they hold the greatest show on turf to in the 4th qtr?  the same O that was held in check in the SB 2 years earlier by the way.

 

I have never said BB gets no credit or that Eli and peyton get no credit BUT BB was nothing w/o Brady- that's just a fact.  7 seasons, 5 losing seasons, 1 playoff app as a wc team, 1 home wc win before getting crushed in div rd.  he had 28 yr old Kosar who made 3 title games before him and had losing record w/ him, he had Vinny to make div rd, Parcells had Vinny for div title and title game app, he was 5-13 w/ Bledsoe and Parcells made a SB w/ him, 10-5 w/ Cassell after UNDEFEATED w/ Brady and no playoffs then Cassell leads KC to div title.

Eli played well in both SB runs, it's nice he had a good 2 month stretch of football but that doesn't make a HOfer and he won 2 SBs b/c he only had to lead his O's to 17 & 19 pts.

Peyton's 1st SB he had one great half in AFC title game against Brady offense that had no run game and Reche Caldwell & Jabar Gaffney as his main weapons.  His D held opponents to 12.8 PPG in that playoff run.

his 2nd SB app he played well in AFC playoffs then tariling by 7 and driving in 4th qtr of SB he threw a pick 6 to end the game.

3rd SB he led his O to 8 points in garbage time against the same D that Brady would lead to 14 4th qtr points for the win a year later.

4th SB led O to 17 pts, D shut down Cam and even scored a TD.

 

 

[ScarletKnight89]

2 hours ago, nyjunc said:

I'm waiting for one that actually helps proves he is a HOFer.

basically he had 2 good months of football where he had to lead O's to 17 & 19 pts to win SBs thus "earning SB MVPs" along w/ compiled, meaningless stats playing in mostly meaningless games b/c he can't help his team win unless everything is perfect around him makes him a HOFer? I got it but I have a higher standard for the greatest players of all time like you should actually be considered one before joining them.  He was a nice, solid starting QB that a team could win w/ if they had enough talent around him. He wasn't a difference making QB, if he was he would have gone 1 and done 67% of his playoff apps, he would have PO wins where his D allowed more than 20 and would have led O to more than 10.5 PPG in playoff losses.

I think the bolded text basically nails it in regards to Eli. He's by no means a bad player, or a below average QB. He was a solid-good player at the position. But he's not a HOFer. If Eli was a difference making QB the team wouldn't have won only 2 games this year.

However, he is going to go in. I don't agree with it but his family legacy, his tenure with the Giants (an iconic franchise), and his 2 SB titles and MVPs will get him in. He doesn't belong, but he'll be in.

[Savage69]

To me Peyton except for his last year Bowl win was a Great QB.. Eli was a good and at times a very good QB.. His 10-6 and 9-7 Giants beating BB and Brady's 16-0 and 13-3 teams in the Bowl gives them as much heartburn as Shula still has from losing to the Supe 3 Jets..

[prime21]

54 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

You can only compare players vs. their era as far as #s go as rules change and the game itself changes. In your eyes Eli must be better than Joe Montana and Johnny Unitas b/c he has better compiled #s. 

Right so Griese's numbers are horrific compared to his peers in his era.  Eli's numbers are up their with people in his era with exception of Brady. Your are sold on stats lead everything that goes into the hall and that is not the case when it comes to selection.  The rings are HUGE.  The MVP awards are HUGE. Yo say he shou;nt have won them but the fact is that he did.  Just like Griese is an All Pro.  His stats suck but he is listed as an all pro,  You cant take it away from him.

Everything that he accomplish you throw away.  

He won 2 super bowls - "he wasn't a game changer"  He orchestrated two td winning drives in the the 4th q. 

He won two Super Bowl MVP's  - "the defense was the MVP" Fact is he was given both MVP awards.

He is 7th all time in passing yards - "the game has changed" Its changed for everyone yet everyone is not on the list

His consecutive game streak  " the game has changed"  Yet every other QB gets hurt

7th passing TD's - "The game has changed" - Yet only Brady and Brees have thrown more in this "era" with over 1,000 more pass attempts than Manning.

 

Voters are human.  They will remember him and the Giants beating the undefeated Pats and then beating them again.  It happens in all sports.   They will remember the Manningham catch.  They will remember the Tyree catch in which Eli got out of the pocket.  The audible at the line and td pass to Plaxico.   There are many negatives but tell me who doesn't have any negatives not named Brady or Joe?   

 

[Savage69]

4 minutes ago, prime21 said:

   There are many negatives but tell me who doesn't have any negatives not named Brady or Joe?   

 

Best 6th rd and 3rd rd picks in history although Unitas as a 8th rd pick was pretty good..

[prime21]

14 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

Best 6th rd and 3rd rd picks in history although Unitas as a 8th rd pick was pretty good..

Don't forget Roger Staubach in the 10th and  Bart Starr in the 17th?????

[greenwichjetfan]

40 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

it's so funny the way you want to credit Peyton and BB for everything.

 

his pre-snap reads won that SB I guess his presnap reads held Brady to 18 pts that game and Cam to 10 pts in SB while scoring a TD.  He threw 2 Tds the entire postseason and the "drive" for his 2nd TD started at the NE 16 yard line. Den would have won w/ Osweiler, they were 5-2 w/ Brock, 7-2 w/ Peyton.  They scored more PPG w/ Brock than Peyton but his presnap reads which led to 8 more INts than TDs were obviously the key to that run.

 

Brady's 1st SB the team was 5-11 the year before, 0-2 to start 2001 then magically went 11-3 the rest of the way.  The Pats D in that SB became the FIRST EVER to blow a double digit 4th qtr lead in the SB by blowing a 14 pt lead and Brady rescued them but yeah that SB itself Brady did as much as Eli I n either of his.  the difference is that was 1 SB, in his other FOUR SB wins he led his O's to an average of 29.5 PPg including 2 years later leading them to 32 w/ 18 4th qtr pts as the D became the SECOND EVER to blow a double digit 4th qtr lead.

 

There is no comparison btw Brady and any of the Mannings.  Peyton is somewhat close, Eli is so far away he can't even see him.

 

the tuck rule play was the correct call unfortunately.

Brady set up Bledsoe on his lone TD drive w/ a 1st down in Pitt territory in that title game

how many points did they hold the greatest show on turf to in the 4th qtr?  the same O that was held in check in the SB 2 years earlier by the way.

 

I have never said BB gets no credit or that Eli and peyton get no credit BUT BB was nothing w/o Brady- that's just a fact.  7 seasons, 5 losing seasons, 1 playoff app as a wc team, 1 home wc win before getting crushed in div rd.  he had 28 yr old Kosar who made 3 title games before him and had losing record w/ him, he had Vinny to make div rd, Parcells had Vinny for div title and title game app, he was 5-13 w/ Bledsoe and Parcells made a SB w/ him, 10-5 w/ Cassell after UNDEFEATED w/ Brady and no playoffs then Cassell leads KC to div title.

Eli played well in both SB runs, it's nice he had a good 2 month stretch of football but that doesn't make a HOfer and he won 2 SBs b/c he only had to lead his O's to 17 & 19 pts.

Peyton's 1st SB he had one great half in AFC title game against Brady offense that had no run game and Reche Caldwell & Jabar Gaffney as his main weapons.  His D held opponents to 12.8 PPG in that playoff run.

his 2nd SB app he played well in AFC playoffs then tariling by 7 and driving in 4th qtr of SB he threw a pick 6 to end the game.

3rd SB he led his O to 8 points in garbage time against the same D that Brady would lead to 14 4th qtr points for the win a year later.

4th SB led O to 17 pts, D shut down Cam and even scored a TD.

 

 

junc I'm not going to argue this with you. You immediately go into projecting/attack mode even when I'm not attacking you. My post which you quoted had actual quotes from you and facts. I made sure to not post anything confrontational.

You like adding your own context to things in order to spin them to your view, and your attacks are legendary around here. There is a reason that you're always on the opposite end of so many argumentative discussions in every thread.

I'll say this one last time, and then I'm out of this thread so you can get your coveted last word. You:

- give no credit at all to Peyton or Eli for any of their 4 super bowl wins (even though all of them went through the pats), and say that the defense carried them to each,
 ---while simultaneously claiming that---
- "Brady is the system, the coaches don't matter, the players around him don't mater.  as long as he is healthy they win" even when I proved that the pats very first championship had even less to do with Brady than any of Peyton or Eli's. Brady lost the divisional round if it weren't for the tuck rule, had literally no impact on the afc title game because he was hurt in the first quarter after the pats special teams gave them a 7-0 lead, and had 145 yards and 1 td in the superbowl, while his defense held the greatest show on turf to 3 points in the first three quarters and only 17 points total.

It's literally the definition of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[Jetsplayer21]

Here is how Eli can make it into HOF. Ask for trade to jags and help them get to the Super Bowl. Instead of finishing his last 2 years for a bad to average giants team.

[Savage69]

43 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Don't forget Roger Staubach in the 10th and  Bart Starr in the 17th?????

To be fair the Cowboys had to wait for Staubach to complete his service otherwise he would have been a top QB pick.. Old Bart with the Packers was a 17th pick but like Unitas they were less teams in those years..

[prime21]

18 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

junc I'm not going to argue this with you. You immediately go into projecting/attack mode even when I'm not attacking you. My post which you quoted had actual quotes from you and facts. I made sure to not post anything confrontational.

You like adding your own context to things in order to spin them to your view, and your attacks are legendary around here. There is a reason that you're always on the opposite end of so many argumentative discussions in every thread.

I'll say this one last time, and then I'm out of this thread so you can get your coveted last word. You:

- give no credit at all to Peyton or Eli for any of their 4 super bowl wins (even though all of them went through the pats), and say that the defense carried them to each,
 ---while simultaneously claiming that---
- "Brady is the system, the coaches don't matter, the players around him don't mater.  as long as he is healthy they win" even when I proved that the pats very first championship had even less to do with Brady than any of Peyton or Eli's. Brady lost the divisional round if it weren't for the tuck rule, had literally no impact on the afc title game because he was hurt in the first quarter after the pats special teams gave them a 7-0 lead, and had 145 yards and 1 td in the superbowl, while his defense held the greatest show on turf to 3 points in the first three quarters and only 17 points total.

It's literally the definition of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I agree.

He also does not give credit to the QB's because the defense was what won the game but when you bring up some pretty good QB's that didn't win he will say because they didn't have a good defense.  

It's a team game. Joe Montana is or was considered the GOAT (Brady debate) but the Niners also had a very good defense too.  Same with the Cowboys and the Steelers back in the day.  Perhaps the 86 Bears and the 2000 Ravens are the exceptions where the defense was overwhelmingly dominant.    

 

 

[prime21]

4 minutes ago, Savage69 said:

To be fair the Cowboys had to wait for Staubach to complete his service otherwise he would have been a top QB pick.. Old Bart with the Packers was a 17th pick but like Unitas they were less teams in those years..

Starr was pick 199 in the 17th round.  17 rounds!! Crazy

[Savage69]

9 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Starr was pick 199 in the 17th round.  17 rounds!! Crazy

My bad I forgot the rd on my 17 LOL In other news Rich Kotite was a 18th rd pick by the Vikes in the 1965 draft..And in the AFL draft the Jets took him in the 9th what was called the red shirt draft..

[prime21]

 

Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast
8	2011	2012-01-08	17	31-005	NYG		ATL	W 24-2	*	23	32	71.88	277	3	0	129.3	1	7	8.66	10.53	2	13	6.50	0	0.0	0	0
9	2011	2012-01-15	18	31-012	NYG	@	GNB	W 37-20	*	21	33	63.64	330	3	1	114.5	1	5	10.00	10.45	4	10	2.50	0	0.0	0	0
10	2011	2012-01-22	19	31-019	NYG	@	SFO	W 20-17	*	32	58	55.17	316	2	0	82.3	6	49	5.45	6.14	1	-2	-2.00	0	0.0	0	0
11	2011	2012-02-05	20	31-033	NYG	N	NWE	W 21-17	*	30	40	75.00	296	1	0	103.7	3	14	7.40	7.90	1	-1	-1.00	0	0.0

 

It's not all defense that wins championships.  

 

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

I think the bolded text basically nails it in regards to Eli. He's by no means a bad player, or a below average QB. He was a solid-good player at the position. But he's not a HOFer. If Eli was a difference making QB the team wouldn't have won only 2 games this year.

However, he is going to go in. I don't agree with it but his family legacy, his tenure with the Giants (an iconic franchise), and his 2 SB titles and MVPs will get him in. He doesn't belong, but he'll be in.

it will be a joke if he makes it.

3 hours ago, Savage69 said:

To me Peyton except for his last year Bowl win was a Great QB.. Eli was a good and at times a very good QB.. His 10-6 and 9-7 Giants beating BB and Brady's 16-0 and 13-3 teams in the Bowl gives them as much heartburn as Shula still has from losing to the Supe 3 Jets..

Peyton is an all time great, there's no debate.  he was a choker in january but he gave his teams chances every year to play in January.

3 hours ago, prime21 said:

Right so Griese's numbers are horrific compared to his peers in his era.  Eli's numbers are up their with people in his era with exception of Brady. Your are sold on stats lead everything that goes into the hall and that is not the case when it comes to selection.  The rings are HUGE.  The MVP awards are HUGE. Yo say he shou;nt have won them but the fact is that he did.  Just like Griese is an All Pro.  His stats suck but he is listed as an all pro,  You cant take it away from him.

Everything that he accomplish you throw away.  

He won 2 super bowls - "he wasn't a game changer"  He orchestrated two td winning drives in the the 4th q. 

He won two Super Bowl MVP's  - "the defense was the MVP" Fact is he was given both MVP awards.

He is 7th all time in passing yards - "the game has changed" Its changed for everyone yet everyone is not on the list

His consecutive game streak  " the game has changed"  Yet every other QB gets hurt

7th passing TD's - "The game has changed" - Yet only Brady and Brees have thrown more in this "era" with over 1,000 more pass attempts than Manning.

 

Voters are human.  They will remember him and the Giants beating the undefeated Pats and then beating them again.  It happens in all sports.   They will remember the Manningham catch.  They will remember the Tyree catch in which Eli got out of the pocket.  The audible at the line and td pass to Plaxico.   There are many negatives but tell me who doesn't have any negatives not named Brady or Joe?   

 

Griese's #s aren't horific in his era, that is what you fail to comprehend.

he led his O's to 17 & 19 pts

the D held Tom Brady and great offenses to 14 & 17 so yeah he didn't deserve either MVP

7th all time in pass yards, 6th all time in pass attempts

great streak, but you don't get am medal just for showing up.  you have to be great which he is not

7th passing TDs, 6th in attempts

 

voters are human and hopefully intelligent and won't be swayed by the short attention span of the social media age where out of context #s can make anyone look good.  If they evaluate his career they will see he doesn't even belong in the discussion.

2 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

junc I'm not going to argue this with you. You immediately go into projecting/attack mode even when I'm not attacking you. My post which you quoted had actual quotes from you and facts. I made sure to not post anything confrontational.

You like adding your own context to things in order to spin them to your view, and your attacks are legendary around here. There is a reason that you're always on the opposite end of so many argumentative discussions in every thread.

I'll say this one last time, and then I'm out of this thread so you can get your coveted last word. You:

- give no credit at all to Peyton or Eli for any of their 4 super bowl wins (even though all of them went through the pats), and say that the defense carried them to each,
 ---while simultaneously claiming that---
- "Brady is the system, the coaches don't matter, the players around him don't mater.  as long as he is healthy they win" even when I proved that the pats very first championship had even less to do with Brady than any of Peyton or Eli's. Brady lost the divisional round if it weren't for the tuck rule, had literally no impact on the afc title game because he was hurt in the first quarter after the pats special teams gave them a 7-0 lead, and had 145 yards and 1 td in the superbowl, while his defense held the greatest show on turf to 3 points in the first three quarters and only 17 points total.

It's literally the definition of talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I didn't go into attack mode at all, that is actually what you do.  you usually hurl insults at me and I come back w/ actual info.

 

again, I say Eli played well so how is that not giving him credit? I said Peyton was great in the 2nd half of title game, so how is that not giving him credit? The defense absolutely carried Peyton the last one but the other 3 each one they both played well BUT the D's on their teams led the way.  That's very different from saying they were carried in all 4 or that they did nothing.

 

The BB system w/o Brady is under .500, 5 losing seasons in 7, 1 playoff app, 1 playoff win which was a home WC game which he wouldn't even have if today's playoff rules were used back then.

In 2001 was the only year the Pats D played like a great D(up until the 4th qtr of the Super Bowl) BUT they wouldn't have even made the playoffs if Brady doesn't  rescue them.  In 2000 Bledseoe goes 5-11 then gets a $100 mil extension, he starts 0-2 and is knocked out.  Brady comes in and they go 11-3.  Coincidence?

In the playoffs in a blizzard Brady brought them back from 10 points down in the 4th qtr.  you can complain about the call but it was the correct one it's just a stupid rule. he wasn't around long at Pitt in the title game but he did make an impact. Up 7-3(thanks to PR TD) he did connect for 28 yards giving Ne a 1st and 10 at the Pitt 40 when he came out.  Bledsoe finished it off w/ a TD and would only lead NE to a FG the rest of the game.

 

if it was BB he'd have some success w/ other QBs not named Tom Brady.

2 hours ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

Here is how Eli can make it into HOF. Ask for trade to jags and help them get to the Super Bowl. Instead of finishing his last 2 years for a bad to average giants team.

Eli has been mediocre/bad for many years, what exactly would he do in jax that Bortles hasn't?

 

By the way, after 4 years in the league:

Eli: 984-1805, 55%, 11385 yds, 77 TDs, 64 INTs, 73.2 rating

Bortles: 1318-2229, 59.1%, 90 TDs 64 INTs, 80.8 rating

 

after 3 playoff games?

Eli: 46-72, 64%, 459 yds, 4 TDs, 4 INts, 77.2 rating

Bortles: 49-85, 58%, 594 yds, 3 Tds, 0 INTs, 91 rating

 

in title games Bortles led his O to 20 points and lost, Eli led his to 20 in regulation and won and 17 in regulation and won.

 

1 hour ago, prime21 said:

 

Rk	Year	Date	G#	Age	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	Sk	Tkl	Ast
8	2011	2012-01-08	17	31-005	NYG		ATL	W 24-2	*	23	32	71.88	277	3	0	129.3	1	7	8.66	10.53	2	13	6.50	0	0.0	0	0
9	2011	2012-01-15	18	31-012	NYG	@	GNB	W 37-20	*	21	33	63.64	330	3	1	114.5	1	5	10.00	10.45	4	10	2.50	0	0.0	0	0
10	2011	2012-01-22	19	31-019	NYG	@	SFO	W 20-17	*	32	58	55.17	316	2	0	82.3	6	49	5.45	6.14	1	-2	-2.00	0	0.0	0	0
11	2011	2012-02-05	20	31-033	NYG	N	NWE	W 21-17	*	30	40	75.00	296	1	0	103.7	3	14	7.40	7.90	1	-1	-1.00	0	0.0

 

It's not all defense that wins championships.  

 

they shut out Atlanta, then held Aaron Rodgers and #1 offense to 13 points in non garbage time, then STs foced 2 TOs in the 2nd half and OT that led to all NYG's points including the GW FG then shut down the greatest QB of all time holding him and the Pats O to 17 pts but yeah Eli led the way.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, prime21 said:

I agree.

He also does not give credit to the QB's because the defense was what won the game but when you bring up some pretty good QB's that didn't win he will say because they didn't have a good defense.  

It's a team game. Joe Montana is or was considered the GOAT (Brady debate) but the Niners also had a very good defense too.  Same with the Cowboys and the Steelers back in the day.  Perhaps the 86 Bears and the 2000 Ravens are the exceptions where the defense was overwhelmingly dominant.    

 

 

18 PPG in SBs, won 10 & 9 games w/ Super Bowl talent around him in a weak division. he's not a difference maker, he helped them win but they didn't win b/c they had him.  They won b/c that D shut down opponents and allowed Eli to win games leading O to 17 & 19 pts. there aren't many SBs where a QB can lead an O to 17/19 points and win.  In the early days of the SB that was good, in this era it is not.  the only SB winning QBs to lead the winning team to less than 20 pts since SB X(that's 10):

Brady in 2001

Eli in 2007

Eli in 2011

Brady was a 1st year starter and his D became the first D EVER to blow a 4th qtr double digit lead in a SB and he rescued them even if he didn't have a great game but the D kept them in that game and in his other SB wins he has led O's to an average of 29.5 PPG while Eli in BOTH SBs led his O to les than 20 pts.  Eli played well but they were led by D.  it's indisuptable

[prime21]

5 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

18 PPG in SBs, won 10 & 9 games w/ Super Bowl talent around him in a weak division. he's not a difference maker, he helped them win but they didn't win b/c they had him.  They won b/c that D shut down opponents and allowed Eli to win games leading O to 17 & 19 pts. there aren't many SBs where a QB can lead an O to 17/19 points and win.  In the early days of the SB that was good, in this era it is not.  the only SB winning QBs to lead the winning team to less than 20 pts since SB X(that's 10):

Brady in 2001

Eli in 2007

Eli in 2011

Brady was a 1st year starter and his D became the first D EVER to blow a 4th qtr double digit lead in a SB and he rescued them even if he didn't have a great game but the D kept them in that game and in his other SB wins he has led O's to an average of 29.5 PPG while Eli in BOTH SBs led his O to les than 20 pts.  Eli played well but they were led by D.  it's indisuptable

You harp on the same thing over and over.  The defense held them to 14 points GREAT!  What is Eli and the offense supposed to do?  They are supposed to score 15 or more points to win.  

The defense held them to 17 points.  What is Eli and the offense supposed to do?  Score 18 points or more to win the game.  

Whats indisputable is that the Giants were losing both games very late in the 4th quarter and Eli led the offense to two touchdowns and two Super Bowl victories.   What is indisputable is that when the game is on the line, the biggest of all games, you want your QB, who ever he is and no matter what his stats are to lead them to victory.  He did it twice.  He was clutch. 

 Here is another nugget.  Eli and Hall Of Famer Steve Young have the same amount of post season wins (8).  Remember,  post season wins, losses, stats, rings and MVP hardware will be flashing in bold letters on a resume. Since you only compare to people in his era because of the changing of the way the offense is, he is at or near the top of every statistical category   that the Hall looks at.  So don't compare him to yester year.  Keep him with his group and make the comparisons.  Pretty Much Brady and Brees are the only comparable players with Big Ben gaining ground.

The Hall will graciously accept a clutch QB post season performer with two rings and two MVP's.

 

 

 

 

[prime21]

Oh and this defense that you speak of.....

in 2007 the Giants were ranked 17th in defense and 14th in offense.

In 2011 they were ranked 25th in defense and 9th in offense.  This is the worst ranking defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

Obviously Eli must have done something to get that 2011 defense to the playoffs so that they could step up their game and play well.  How about 4900 passing yards and 29 td's

Hmmmm

[prime21]

And I will finally bow out of this convo for it's been 2 or 3 days now.  I bow out not in victory nor defeat.  I need to spend my energy crying about my beloved Jets and not the QB that shares the stadium with us.    

I leave knowing that for all the energy and excuses you have pointed to not make him a HOF'er, all points that should be looked at, I have provided, or shall a I say Ei has provided, more than enough information that will get him into the Hall Of Fame on his first or second time on the ballot.  Eli, Steve Young, Bob Griese, Joe Montana,  Jpohhn Elway and others will all be wearing that Yellow jacket that weekend.

I will leave you with this link only because I know YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!!  lmao https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-clutch-postseason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/

PS. The mods should have closed or moved this non Jet thread a long time ago. 

[nyjunc]

42 minutes ago, prime21 said:

You harp on the same thing over and over.  The defense held them to 14 points GREAT!  What is Eli and the offense supposed to do?  They are supposed to score 15 or more points to win.  

The defense held them to 17 points.  What is Eli and the offense supposed to do?  Score 18 points or more to win the game.  

Whats indisputable is that the Giants were losing both games very late in the 4th quarter and Eli led the offense to two touchdowns and two Super Bowl victories.   What is indisputable is that when the game is on the line, the biggest of all games, you want your QB, who ever he is and no matter what his stats are to lead them to victory.  He did it twice.  He was clutch. 

 Here is another nugget.  Eli and Hall Of Famer Steve Young have the same amount of post season wins (8).  Remember,  post season wins, losses, stats, rings and MVP hardware will be flashing in bold letters on a resume. Since you only compare to people in his era because of the changing of the way the offense is, he is at or near the top of every statistical category   that the Hall looks at.  So don't compare him to yester year.  Keep him with his group and make the comparisons.  Pretty Much Brady and Brees are the only comparable players with Big Ben gaining ground.

The Hall will graciously accept a clutch QB post season performer with two rings and two MVP's.

 

 

 

 

The D made Eli's job easy, if he had to lead them to 24 pts they lose.  In his postseason career he has NEVER won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20.  THREE first time playoff QBs did that in this postseason alone.

2 great drives but a ball did stick to a helmet to win one and a Pats DB dropped an easy game ending INT so good luck was on his side.

Steve Young was a full time starter for 9 seasons, he was leading his teams to BYES so they didn't have to win 4 playoff games to win SBs.  Steve was a full time starter for 8 years in SF and made the playoffs 7 and went one and done ONE time. He won playoff games in 6 different postseasons, Eli 2. he won playoff games where the opponent scored 28, 22 and 27 and won a SB where the opponent scored 26.  Eli has never won a playoff game where his D allowed more than 20.  

from this era: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Peyton, ben are locks and should be locks

Wilson is on his way but needs more years, Newton and Ryan are on pace but have more work to do. these guys are all much better Qbs tyhan Eli Manning who doesn't even belong in the discussion.

37 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Oh and this defense that you speak of.....

in 2007 the Giants were ranked 17th in defense and 14th in offense.

In 2011 they were ranked 25th in defense and 9th in offense.  This is the worst ranking defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

Obviously Eli must have done something to get that 2011 defense to the playoffs so that they could step up their game and play well.  How about 4900 passing yards and 29 td's

Hmmmm

rankings are awesome but what did they do in postseason?

actual rankings:

2007 D was 7th, 2007 O was 16th

2011 D was 27th, 2011 O was 8th.

2007 had to overcome a league leading 20 INts from their QB and they played great in the playoffs against high powered offenses.

I will go more in depth on these games tomorrow.

 

11 minutes ago, prime21 said:

And I will finally bow out of this convo for it's been 2 or 3 days now.  I bow out not in victory nor defeat.  I need to spend my energy crying about my beloved Jets and not the QB that shares the stadium with us.    

I leave knowing that for all the energy and excuses you have pointed to not make him a HOF'er, all points that should be looked at, I have provided, or shall a I say Ei has provided, more than enough information that will get him into the Hall Of Fame on his first or second time on the ballot.  Eli, Steve Young, Bob Griese, Joe Montana,  Jpohhn Elway and others will all be wearing that Yellow jacket that weekend.

I will leave you with this link only because I know YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!!  lmao https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-clutch-postseason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/

PS. The mods should have closed or moved this non Jet thread a long time ago. 

fivehtirtyeight is a joke and you can't be the most clutch postseason QB and go one and done 67% of your postseason apps while never winning a postseason game when our D allows more than D.

[Kleckineau]

52 minutes ago, prime21 said:

Oh and this defense that you speak of.....

in 2007 the Giants were ranked 17th in defense and 14th in offense.

In 2011 they were ranked 25th in defense and 9th in offense.  This is the worst ranking defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

Obviously Eli must have done something to get that 2011 defense to the playoffs so that they could step up their game and play well.  How about 4900 passing yards and 29 td's

Hmmmm

 

26 minutes ago, prime21 said:

And I will finally bow out of this convo for it's been 2 or 3 days now.  I bow out not in victory nor defeat.  I need to spend my energy crying about my beloved Jets and not the QB that shares the stadium with us.    

I leave knowing that for all the energy and excuses you have pointed to not make him a HOF'er, all points that should be looked at, I have provided, or shall a I say Ei has provided, more than enough information that will get him into the Hall Of Fame on his first or second time on the ballot.  Eli, Steve Young, Bob Griese, Joe Montana,  Jpohhn Elway and others will all be wearing that Yellow jacket that weekend.

I will leave you with this link only because I know YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!!  lmao https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-most-clutch-postseason-quarterback-of-all-time-is-eli-manning/

PS. The mods should have closed or moved this non Jet thread a long time ago. 

Hey look. Nice try but there are no reasonable means possible to combat the junc science.

Did you see where he said Sanchez was just as good as Eli Manning and would have won 2 Super Bowls? 

Need I say more ☺

 

[nyjunc]

14 hours ago, prime21 said:

Oh and this defense that you speak of.....

in 2007 the Giants were ranked 17th in defense and 14th in offense.

In 2011 they were ranked 25th in defense and 9th in offense.  This is the worst ranking defense ever to win a Super Bowl.

Obviously Eli must have done something to get that 2011 defense to the playoffs so that they could step up their game and play well.  How about 4900 passing yards and 29 td's

Hmmmm

Back to 2007 and 2011 Giants D in postseason.

2007:

WC at TB:

TB O averaged 19.6 PPG, D held them to 14(-6)

TB D averaged 15.4, NYG scored 24(+9)

NYG created 3 turnovers.

KO to start 3rd qtr, NYG up 14-7.  TB fumbles and NYG begins on TB 30, kicks FG. 17-7 NYg

Next possession, 2nd and 7 at NYG 27 in FG range TB down 17-7 they throw INT

a 3rd trailing 24-14 late in the game.

How huge were those 2 TOs?

div at Dal:

Dal O averaged 26.3 PPG, D held them to 17(-9)

Dal D averaged 18.1 PPG, NYG scored 21(+3)

NYG created 1 TO which was essentially meaningless in final seconds

NFC Championship at GB:

GB O averaged 24.6 PPG, NYG D held them to 20(-6)

GB D averaged 17.3, NYG scored 20 in regulation(+3)

NYG forced 2 TOs

1st TO was meaningless as on the INT return NYG fumbled it back.

2nd TO set up GW FG

Super Bowl vs. NE:

NE O averaged 33.3 PPG, NYG held them to 14(-19)

NE D averaged 15 PPG, NYG scored 17(+2)

NYG D forced 1 TO

1st and 10 at NYG 44 w/ 22 secs left Brady sacked/fumbled costing them 3 pts in a close game.

totals:

NYG D held opps to -40 PPG below their average

NYG O scored +17 PPG against what opps allowed on average

NYG created 7 TOs in 4 games(almost 2 per game)

 

 

The NYG O averaged 20.7 PPG for the SEASON, this to go along w/ a league leading 20 INTs from Eli.  he was awesome!

 

 

 

 

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, Kleckineau said:

 

Hey look. Nice try but there are no reasonable means possible to combat the junc science.

Did you see where he said Sanchez was just as good as Eli Manning and would have won 2 Super Bowls? 

Need I say more ☺

 

quiet, knowledgeable adult football fans are trying to have an intelligent discussion.  Please don't ruin it.

[Kleckineau]

On 1/23/2018 at 6:50 AM, nyjunc said:

your entire post is full of reasons why he shouldn't make it but you say he should, what? the real question is could NYG have won 2 SBs w/ any decent QB and the answer would have been yes.  Switch Sanchez and Eli on 07/11 NYG and 09/10 NYJ and the team results remain the same. Both QBs played well in those runs but both teams were led by their Ds(and STs in NYGs case).  NYJ didn't make Sbs b/c of the D/STs, NYG made both b/c of D/STs